Darth Revan and Darth Malak vs. NJO Luke and Mace Windu

Originally posted by Darth Windu
- Mace's Shatterpoint ability is somewhat overrated. It's obviously useful in a ny situation; I won't deny that. But Malak is severely underestimated. Of course he was easy to beat, it was a video game. Secondly, Even if Mace did find his Shatterpoint, he would have had to fight him for enough time to study his motions, styles, and behaviours in combat; meaning he'd have to stand his own against an undeniably powerful Sith Lord. Now, maybe he could pull it off, but chances are that Malak's superior Force power and control of the Dark Side would overwhelm Mace, but only after a difficult battle.

Finding the shatterpoint doesn't need that much time. As I said Mace did it in the fight with Sidious before he disarmed him so that probably took him less than a minute. And Sidious is not that bad with force powers and in a lightsaber combat.

- Secondly, about Luke's power. I will never, ever, ever deny his power and sttatus as one of the most powerful beings the galaxy has ever known. But I believe that certain Sith such as Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos could take him in a fight. As for his ability to change his appearance and mask his presence, just look at Darth Sidious. He confronted in conversations such mighty Jedi as Mace Windu and Yoda himself, and retained his identity as a Sith Lord until he wished to reveal it. Also, in the novelization, the face of Palpatine is but a mask created by mysterious Force techniques, which is why it is painfully destroyed by Sidous' own lightning. Anyway, I highly doubt that Luke would need or get the chance to "morph" in the middle of battle. I think he could take Revan, but not before Malak defeated Mace and joined his master against Luke.

Erm...well...it wouldn't aid him if he would "morph" in the middle of a battle. That was not the point.

The point is that NJO Luke can kill Yuuzhan Vong wearing melee weapons that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, armors that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, that can only hardly be manipulated through the force and posess the physical strength of 2 human soldiers each. And he not only did kill thousands of them basically on his own. He killed at least 8 of their strongest warriors with one hit each (where one of them was too much for Kyp Durron) and used something like force lightning to instantly kill one of them. And after doing this he just killed their unquestioned leader (the most powerful of them all) in a duel.

Actualy I never saw people like Ragnos, Sadow, Kun or Revan doing something compareable to that.

I can see Naga and Marak doing that. I can see Revan coming close to that, but falling short by a little bit, same with Kun.

You've never heard of Revan or Kun doing something like that? Kun, the one who froze an entire Senate Chamber, killed one of the most powerful jedi Masters of the time, and walked out like nothing happened? Again, if you search on other recent posts, you will find sufficient info on this from Darkstar. And Ragnos doesn't really need explanation. Well he does, but look. He ruled for 150 years as the Dark Lord of the Sith, and died on a death bed of old age. Have you ever heard of a Star Wars character other than Yoda dying of age alone. (Force-users who entered combat often) Not to mention that he apprenticed the star throwing Sadow, and that Sith Lords for millenia after his demise feared his spirit? Feared air particles? And Revan has been discussed in every post for like, the past several months. Got to go though, I'll go more in depth later. It's nice to debate with someone competent. 🙂

Well, freezing the Vong won't help if their armour is supposedly resistant to lightsaber and blaster attacks, but Exar still might be able to do it, Revan could probably pull it off with a death field, Marka and Naga would be able to it about as easily as Luke did it.

The thing is is that the Vong are immune to the Force until something happens; it's confusing as wack, but whatever. What I meant was that there are a couple of Sith Lords who are actually more powerful than Luke. He'd give anyone a run for their money, no doubt. But some people are simply too powerful for him. Now, I think that he's stronger than Revan, and is capable of beating him in a battle. But some people, such as Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos, are in my eyes, more powerful than he is.

Luke and Mace. ALL the way.

I respect your opinion Darth Windu, and Nai Fohl. Just not Darth Somebody. Why would Mace and Luke win?

Mace is skilled and Vaapad which is best used against the Darkside and everyone says Luke would defeat Revan.

Vapaad is not better against the Dark Side, and not everybody says Luke would defeat Revan and if he would it would take him a shit load of time. Far to long actually.

Vaapad has nothing to do with being better against the dark side, its all up to who is using the style, thats what matters most. Mace is powerful best swordsman, and with his Vaapad it only makes him stronger, whih alows him to use dark side powers.
Again: Its all up to who has control over the style.

Originally posted by Darth Infidus
No, Malak is better than Mace. Malak was about as good as Revan, who would own Mace in a saber duel. Not to mention, Malak would overpower Mace if entered a saber lock, which would probably happen. Besides,that fight he had with sids was pathetic, it was too slow, I was expecting it to be ALOT faster.

y can't u understand that the speed means very little Anakins fight was the fastest and him and Obi r not the most powerful.

Vary true; it was slow because Jackson and McDiarmid are not as good duelists in real life as Christensen and McGregor are. Do you honestly think that either Obi Wan or Anakin could have defeated Mace or Sidious as of ROTS?

Originally posted by Darth Windu
You've never heard of Revan or Kun doing something like that? Kun, the one who froze an entire Senate Chamber, killed one of the most powerful jedi Masters of the time, and walked out like nothing happened? Again, if you search on other recent posts, you will find sufficient info on this from Darkstar. And Ragnos doesn't really need explanation. Well he does, but look. He ruled for 150 years as the Dark Lord of the Sith, and died on a death bed of old age. Have you ever heard of a Star Wars character other than Yoda dying of age alone. (Force-users who entered combat often) Not to mention that he apprenticed the star throwing Sadow, and that Sith Lords for millenia after his demise feared his spirit? Feared air particles? And Revan has been discussed in every post for like, the past several months. Got to go though, I'll go more in depth later. It's nice to debate with someone competent. 🙂

Actually many people do forget something about Sith Lords like Sadow or Exar Kun. They didn't do everything they did with sheer force powers they did it with Sith magic / alchemy / technology.

Kun has frozen the entire Senate Chamber. Yes. Vodo who is obviously not as powerful as Yoda or NJO Luke resisted that effect. He used technology to blow up Ossus as well as Naga Sadow did to blow up stars (his ship channeld his force powers). Now take away their Sith magic / artifacts / technology and leave them with an opponent like NJO Luke who is more powerful than them having all their stuff (somebody that can create and control black holes is pretty likely able to destroy planets with his willpower). And now tell me, how they would defeat him ? Hell...Ragnos spirit was defeated by one of Lukes students (no matter how much I hate that idea - it's as much "canon" as the KOTOR games are).

The only one of the "ancient" Sith that did everything he did with sheer force potential was Revan during the events of KOTOR I. What he did before it and after it might also be product of using Sith magic, artifacts, technology. And he still did nothing comperable to Luke in the NJO books.

Now...Revan is great but he will still lose to NJO Luke as anyone else would except a full developed Anakin who never was around and Marka Ragnos at his peak (maybe).

And for Mace vs Malak: Mace defeated Sidious and he will most likely do just the same with Malak. Read the ROTS novel. Mace could fight with a lightsaber in a "automatic" mode...he just doesn't think about it, his Vaapad (meaning his state of mind while using it) throws everything right back that is thrown at him through the force and for his lightsaber skills: Does anybody want to argue that somebody who invented his own fighting style at the age of 12 or 13 years and practiced that thing for more than 40 years can pretty much defeat anyone else in a lightsaber duel (as long as it's not Yoda or Tulak Hord himself) ?
Now add his unique Shatterpoint ability here that will show him the weakpoints of his opponent and Malak is dead as greater range or more strength won't give him the edge here.

Still Mace and NJO Luke win.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Actually many people do forget something about Sith Lords like Sadow or Exar Kun. They didn't do everything they did with sheer force powers they did it with Sith magic / alchemy / technology.

Kun has frozen the entire Senate Chamber. Yes. Vodo who is obviously not as powerful as Yoda or NJO Luke resisted that effect. He used technology to blow up Ossus as well as Naga Sadow did to blow up stars (his ship channeld his force powers). Now take away their Sith magic / artifacts / technology and leave them with an opponent like NJO Luke who is more powerful than them having all their stuff (somebody that can create and control black holes is pretty likely able to destroy planets with his willpower). And now tell me, how they would defeat him ? Hell...Ragnos spirit was defeated by one of Lukes students (no matter how much I hate that idea - it's as much "canon" as the KOTOR games are).

The only one of the "ancient" Sith that did everything he did with sheer force potential was Revan during the events of KOTOR I. What he did before it and after it might also be product of using Sith magic, artifacts, technology. And he still did nothing comperable to Luke in the NJO books.

Now...Revan is great but he will still lose to NJO Luke as anyone else would except a full developed Anakin who never was around and Marka Ragnos at his peak (maybe).

And for Mace vs Malak: Mace defeated Sidious and he will most likely do just the same with Malak. Read the ROTS novel. Mace could fight with a lightsaber in a "automatic" mode...he just doesn't think about it, his Vaapad (meaning his state of mind while using it) throws everything right back that is thrown at him through the force and for his lightsaber skills: Does anybody want to argue that somebody who invented his own fighting style at the age of 12 or 13 years and practiced that thing for more than 40 years can pretty much defeat anyone else in a lightsaber duel (as long as it's not Yoda or Tulak Hord himself) ?
Now add his unique Shatterpoint ability here that will show him the weakpoints of his opponent and Malak is dead as greater range or more strength won't give him the edge here.

Still Mace and NJO Luke win.

well said

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Finding the shatterpoint doesn't need that much time. As I said Mace did it in the fight with Sidious before he disarmed him so that probably took him less than a minute. And Sidious is not that bad with force powers and in a lightsaber combat.

Erm...well...it wouldn't aid him if he would "morph" in the middle of a battle. That was not the point.

The point is that NJO Luke can kill Yuuzhan Vong wearing melee weapons that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, armors that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, that can only hardly be manipulated through the force and posess the physical strength of 2 human soldiers each. And he not only did kill thousands of them basically on his own. He killed at least 8 of their strongest warriors with one hit each (where one of them was too much for Kyp Durron) and used something like force lightning to instantly kill one of them. And after doing this he just killed their unquestioned leader (the most powerful of them all) in a duel.

Actualy I never saw people like Ragnos, Sadow, Kun or Revan doing something compareable to that.

Revan kills hundreds of mandalorians and their leader, kills or turns hundreds if not thousands of jedi and then defeats the sith empire killing hundreds of them with almost no training. that's very comparable. Kun kills tons of jedi including the best masters and stalls thousands of jedi long enough to become a spirit which consumes an entire race of warriors after that he silmutainously force chokes 14 jedi and rips lukes spirit from his body.Also very comparable.

Luke was far superior to the vong in close combat and could manipulate creatures that made black holes, the first is impressive the second isn't especially considering he nearly has a heart attack when he does it. Instantly killing has been done before, look at what kreia did so who cares. as for killing lots of vong, The sith lords killed lots of force users in battle particularly exar and Revan. Revan also killed many mandalorians in battle who are probably better fighters then vong as you remember the jedi frequently got slashes in on vong that damaged their armour the mandalorians were probably better fighters but the vong could take a bigger beating. From what I've read of NJO jedi>vong and Revan killed thousands of jedi/sith including many of them on the star forge when he had little or no training.

Luke hasn't impressed me as much as Revan has so I'm sticking with Revan, as for malak against mace, I'm not sure I see malak with a better control of the force but mace with only slightly better swordsmanship and malak has more experience, I still need to go back and see if anyone has any major arguements for mace so I'm not completely decided yet.

Revan actually could have more potential than Luke, full potential anakin is 200% as powerful as sidious luke is 80% as powerful as his father which is 160% Revan pwns the crap out of sidious power wise so he could very possibly be in the 170%-180% range.

Not only does Revan achieve his potential but his force knowledge is far greater then lukes he had entire planets to learn from luke had a single jedi library, Revan had tons of experience fighting force users Luke had less and the force users he fought would get wrecked by Revan easily, The only impressive thing Luke did was kill a bunch of vong in a fight, other then that what has he done that's so great, manipulate some animals? change gravity a little bit? Revan killed many more people than luke did as well as many many jedi and sith and many mandalorians both of which are more skilled then vong. Revan in the end has much more knowledge of the force and lightsaber combat, tons of practice at both, more practice against force users equal or greater potential, sith artifacts that give him power and equal speed, now throw in that he can identify luke's form as form 5 and exploit the weaknesses in it as well as having battle pre-cog which will keep him always at least one step ahead of luke and he can definitley win.

NJO Luke learns force powers no other Jedi knows. He defeated the Vongs which makes those Sith Revan fought look like weaklings.

um...luke learns on instant kill power no one knows but there are many other instant kill powers like the one kreia used and jedi>vong and the sith from revans time are just as powerful if not more powerful then those during luke's.

Luke had to go through more Vongs then Revan with the Sith.

A sith is more powerful then a Vong... And Revan and Malak both killed more Mandelorians then Luke killed vong, so that hardly matters