Phoenix vs Unicron (Full power)

Started by newjak8614 pages
newjak86 I am Beyond Power

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
Yea, that's exactly what I mean, necromancers and sorcerers can summon and reanimate the dead but they cannot create, alchemists can build but not create. I never said that Unicron cannot do anything besides destruction, he revived Megatron into Galvatron, he is very powerful, he is the embodiment of Chaos. I am just saying that igniting the Inferno of Creation can only be topped by a few other feats ( i.e. thinking yourself into existence and thinking into existence the Spark of Creation)

Yes but the origins of Unicron aren't clear infact as far as anybody knows he did make himself no one can argue against it. Besides if you think about it the Phoenix was given her power from being a part of TOAA so she hasn't even done that herself. Also as far as anyboby knows Phoenixs power could only be to make creation as TOAA commands. As far as we know she has no power outside of creation. Unicron takes orders from no one. Of course though Unicron destroyed creation once was about to destroy it again and was only stopped beacuse of self sacrifice and he did fight the full power of creation incarnete and was winning. So if you take Phoenix out of Marvel Universe she doesn't have the power of TOAA anymore. So in Unicron's universe it would at best be creation at worst would be a powerless enitity. Now you say Unicron can not compete in feats yet he probably made himself, destroyed creation which is Phoenix's only real boast of power, survuved without it meaning he is beyond it, has taken something and revived it showing that is not outside of his power to create.
Now instead of telling me what Phoenix's powers are again dispute the facts I have given and tell me they are not comparable and explain why they're not.

Phoenix_Avatar9 Spark of Creation

In the Dorling Kinderlsey transformers encyclopedia, Primus and Unicron were born from the same blob of incoherent concepts, Order and Chaos like the myth of yin-yang and Pan-Ku, I have to find it and post it later it's in a moving box. but that's what I remember, and I think that amputating and fixing injured universes is a big feat in my belief

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
In the Dorling Kinderlsey transformers encyclopedia, Primus and Unicron were born from the same blob of incoherent concepts, Order and Chaos like the myth of yin-yang and Pan-Ku, I have to find it and post it later it's in a moving box. but that's what I remember, and I think that amputating and fixing injured universes is a big feat in my belief

Where did you get that Unicron and Primus born like that. First off Unicron was just there is origin is never given in great detail. But Creation is there which Unicron destroys but misses a few molecules which become the next Creation. Primus is born out of this creation and given it's full power to defend itself from Unicron but Primus is loosing and is no match for Unicron he only stops him by making the Ultimate sacrifice.
Now of course Phoenix can do those things to Universe's she was given the power to create those Universes and since she is part of it and the absolute authority there then of course she has power over it.
But you still haven't disputed my facts which asked that's what i want i want you to dispute what i gave and give me reasons why they don't stack up with Phoenix. Don't tell me anymore about her powers just break my arguement.

Cosmic Flame Senior Member

Yes but the origins of Unicron aren't clear infact as far as anybody knows he did make himself no one can argue against it.

Well, if the evidence in the encyclopedia doesn't disprove this, then I say that as no one can say that he didn't make himself, no one can say that he really did. How would he have done it? Beings don't usually make themselves. I don't know of any story in any religion or culture where people just exist. They always come from somwhere. They certainly don't "make" themselves.

Besides if you think about it the Phoenix was given her power from being a part of TOAA so she hasn't even done that herself.

This is illogical and irrelevant. Every being in creation exists in some capacity with power related to what they are. Since I don't buy that Unicron created himself, then his power was obviously granted to him by something/someone else, or derived from some other source, just like everyone else.

As far as we know she has no power outside of creation.

What do you mean? What do you define as creation? If anything exists, there is creation. If nothing exists, there is creation. I'm talking about beyond time and space. Oblivion is an aspect of creation. Death is an aspect of creation. There really is no outside of creation, unless one is speaking of that absolute many refer to as God.

So if you take Phoenix out of Marvel Universe she doesn't have the power of TOAA anymore. So in Unicron's universe it would at best be creation at worst would be a powerless enitity.

Most battles take place in a neutral location between characters with their full powers at their disposal, unless stated otherwise. There is nothing in the initial post to contradict this. I don't see why Phoenix would have all of her power anyway, seeing as how it's her power. She's not like the Specter, where her power varies according to how much she's given on any particular occasion. She always has all of her power.

If Phoenix doesnt completely sacrifice itself (IE no coming back) then this fight would continue until everything is destroyed again which is the problem Primus had.

That can never happen, because as long as life exists, Phoenix exists.

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

First that logic is true for the Marvel universe where there is a supreme being in the Transformer Universe there is no supreme being that makes everything.
Also your statement that nothing can exist outside of creation is wrong because Unicron was separate from creation and destroyed it which means he is beyond it.
If they don't make themselves then How is TOAA here was he just here even if so that is what i was getting at. Unicron just was whether he made himself or not doesn't matter in the Transformer Universe there has never been anything before him or that made him.
When I said that you take Phoenix away from universe and place her in Unicron's world i was not trying to say that is where the battle was taking place but rather has an argument where people say since Phoenix is second only to TOAA she wins. In the realm of Unicron there is no such thing as TOAA or the one God the concept doesn't exist. So in it Phoenix wouldn't be the same and beneath Unicron there. I believe that when they are fighting full potential they are around the same in a neutral setting.
Now for a quote of yours:
"What do you mean? What do you define as creation? If anything exists, there is creation. If nothing exists, there is creation. I'm talking about beyond time and space. Oblivion is an aspect of creation. Death is an aspect of creation. There really is no outside of creation, unless one is speaking of that absolute many refer to as God."
This argument is voided because in his universe Unicron has already existed outside of creation so he is beyond it's concept. I never liked the idea but in Unicron's universe that is fact.
But I still have yet to argue my points as to whether or not they're comparable and haven't given me a reason for it.

Onikirimaru Saikyo Soulja

Sorry about the double posting my computer seems to have played a dirty trick on me last night, I loaded the pic, then my computer was like, look its not there better reupload it, and then i did and it was like, nope its still not there, and then I did it again and then my computer was like HAHA Its all really up here moron you look dumb as hell.

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

It's ok man it happens so how you think I'm doing in this debate.

Phoenix_Avatar9 Spark of Creation
Originally posted by newjak86
Where did you get that Unicron and Primus born like that. First off Unicron was just there is origin is never given in great detail.

In the Dorling Kinderlsey Transformer encyclopedia, It wasnt in great detail but there was some information, like that Cybertron is Primus and Primus and Unicron are twins, they each existed in Astral Forms before they took on the forms of planets.

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

which version does it state it is UK or American that can make a big difference.

Cosmic Flame Senior Member

Also your statement that nothing can exist outside of creation is wrong because Unicron was separate from creation and destroyed it which means he is beyond it.

Read my post again. I never said nothing can exist outside of creation. I merely asked for a definition of creation.

Unicron just was whether he made himself or not doesn't matter in the Transformer Universe there has never been anything before him or that made him.

If it doesn't matter, why mention it?

When I said that you take Phoenix away from universe and place her in Unicron's world i was not trying to say that is where the battle was taking place but rather has an argument where people say since Phoenix is second only to TOAA she wins. In the realm of Unicron there is no such thing as TOAA or the one God the concept doesn't exist. So in it Phoenix wouldn't be the same and beneath Unicron there.

It's her power, not her standing in the cosmic hierarchy that is at issue here. Peopel say that her power is second to TOAA to show the level and range of power that she has. The title/position in and of itself means nothing. It's the power that matters. Phoenix creates and destroys everything in existence at some point or another. The only other being on that level is the LT, and he only arbitrates and destroys. If anything Unicron might be comparable to the destruction aspect of the LT but nothing else.

This argument is voided because in his universe Unicron has already existed outside of creation so he is beyond it's concept.

Once again, what do you define as creation? Most people think of creation as the physical plane of existence. Some consider the psychic, astral and physical planes as well. What definition are you working with?

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

It doesn't matter how i define creation because in Unicron's relam it was a seperate entity from him so he can exist outside of it.
Also yes it does matter what universe they are in. In Marvel she is second only to TOAA in Unicron's comic she would be nothing more than creation so she would be beneath him. That's what I'm saying.
She creates and destroys creation but she creates it first meaning that since she is it's creator than she probably can destroy it easier than anything else.

Your qoute:
(Unicron just was whether he made himself or not doesn't matter in the Transformer Universe there has never been anything before him or that made him.)

(If it doesn't matter, why mention it?)
Because you brought it up saying that there had to be something before Unicron otherwise he should be the supreme creater which isn't true as nothing has been proven to come before him or create him.

Phoenix_Avatar9 Spark of Creation
Originally posted by newjak86
which version does it state it is UK or American that can make a big difference.

US, I bought it in Borders, I am trying to look for it but it's in my other house, we're still moving, sry, I'll post it as soon as I can.

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
US, I bought it in Borders, I am trying to look for it but it's in my other house, we're still moving, sry, I'll post it as soon as I can.

I would like to see that because i did some research of my own and the story I've been saying checked out in fact Unicron was stronger than I remembered.

Cosmic Flame Senior Member

It doesn't matter how i define creation because in Unicron's relam it was a seperate entity from him so he can exist outside of it.

Of course it matters how it's defined. If one considers creation to be purely physical, then one excludes the magical realms, astral realms, etc. How can you use a point in an discussion and refuse to provide a definition for it? How is creation defined in Transformers?

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

Creation is defines as it would be in Marvel(Sapce Time Life all of that) except that it isn't the work of a an all powerful being but is it's own being. But as i know of only Unicron has existed outside of it. That is about the best defention I can give.

Onikirimaru Saikyo Soulja

Well, this debate seems to be going around in circles, but I think its pretty interesting. I dont think Pheonix could contend with Unicron. Unicron, in his weakened robotic form, was orson wells. Orson Wells can take phonic easily. Also, he had the power to turn megatron into Leonard Nemoy. THAT is impressive. Has Pheonix turned anyone into a star trek castmember lately? Didnt think so.

Frankly, Im not impressed with Pheonix, and I think all of her godlike powers are just a work. If she had godlike abilities, then she would be doing alot more cooler stuff than flying around on fire and shooting fire like a sexy human torch. She has limits.

Im gonna use an old Philospophy argument. If Pheonix is the end all be all of creation, and she is a good guy, then why do badguys exist. Why doesnt she just take a late night, and fly around the universe wiping out every super being from existance? She cant, because while she like to talk in fancy poetry about how she is the force of creation, all Ive really seen her do is fly around and shoot fire. Why doesnt she just wink whoever she has beefs with out of existance? I dont think she can.

Now the argument has convinced me that Unicron would win out, because I think its been proven to me at least that Primus and Pheonix are compirable. The fact that Primus and Unicron are like yin and yang helps the fact, because if Primus is ultimate creation, and unicron is ultimate destruction, and Unicron is beats the crap out of Primus and kills him, making him have to self sacrifice himself, then I think Unicron can take Pheonix easily. Unicron ate EVERYTHING. All energy, all matter. Anything pheonix could throw at him, who is the say he just wont open his mouth and consume it. And dont hide behind "Creation is more powerful than destruction" because this is a fight. What fight have you ever seen that someone has won by creating things? If me and you got into a fight, I had the power to kill 1000s of people, and you had the power to create them, I would kill everything you created and you would sit their looking at me with a look on your face saying "But Im the pheonix! I have a MOVIE coming out!! You cant beat me! Im gonna go write a nasty letter to your editor!"

Unicron fears the power of life, but it seems only in a villian plot device sort of way. He doesnt fear it because it easily kills him, he fears it because it hurts, and he hasnt been around for unknown amount of time to run the risk of maybe getting beat.

And nobody can really argue that Pheonix power = matrix power. I havnt brushed up on comic lore, but in the film the matrix was like a device that a transformer had (making the leader something something PRIME) and used like a bomb or something. Pheonix would have to be able to change into a transformer to use it. Which goes back to, if she is so powerful, why cant she change into a car.

If she could change into a car, then she could change the composition of her body. But like I said, she just flies around on fire like a sexy human torch. She doesnt even use her powers to give her snazzy clothes or bigger boobs or anything. She just flies around on fire talking about how she has "telekinitic godhood." Unless Unicron is weak to the power of egotrip, then he would just eat her up like o so many fishsticks.

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

Actually the Matrix isn't just a bomb it is all the power of creation the being put into one object so Creation has some kinda of defence against Unicron.

Onikirimaru Saikyo Soulja

Yes, I know, but it was used like a bomb, at least in the movie.

newjak86 I am Beyond Power

In the comics it is to basically it is all the enegies of Creation being used at once.

Avalonofthewind Godot Brew#107

In the comic, the matrix was the essence of primus.
People with skill (optimus prime) were able to create life with it (an ability he rarely used for some reason)
Shockwave took prime and forced him to create the constructicons with just primes head. He didnt have the true matrix for some reason (cant remember) so at some point...shockwave was looking for the true matrix.

In the movie, the matrix is just the collective of all knowledge and a powerful weapon..but we are never taught to what extent.

Both versions choose their owners.