Originally posted by DarkCrawler
She might be stronger then Hercules, but is she stronger then Amon?The god that [b]Black Adam
get's his strength from?I think Amon is skyfather. [/B]
you're right of course. she may NOT be stronger. apparently adam is stronger than cm so stronger than herc and maybe ww. we went off on a bit of a tangent, but bottom line is that i still see this match as too close to call. 🙁
And for whoever said about Black Adam being depicted as stronger than CM by Superman because of his ruthlessness and not holding back is wrong, he WAS holding back in the fight, he was trying to get Superman off of him, not fight him. He even turned his back in the fight against Superman. Superman said outright that he hits harder than Captain Marvel does. Even in Day of Vengeance CM blindsided BA and they crashed to the ground, then Black Adam simply grabbed him and threw him away. Captain Marvel I think gets the win from being a better ALL AROUND fighter, category for category... each having their advantages over the other... though it seems speed and strength fall directly to BA..
Originally posted by Juntai
And for whoever said about Black Adam being depicted as stronger than CM by Superman because of his ruthlessness and not holding back is wrong, he WAS holding back in the fight, he was trying to get Superman off of him, not fight him. He even turned his back in the fight against Superman. Superman said outright that he hits harder than Captain Marvel does. Even in Day of Vengeance CM blindsided BA and they crashed to the ground, then Black Adam simply grabbed him and threw him away. Captain Marvel I think gets the win from being a better ALL AROUND fighter, category for category... each having their advantages over the other... though it seems speed and strength fall directly to BA..
Speed will not be an issue at all, it comes down who is more ruthless and who wants it more. I can see it 50/50 depending how they fight each other, if blackadam wants to brawl with Thor in a all out battle he will get smoke really fast godforce blast or getting hit with the hammer at full force. Black Adam is one of the toughest bad guys around I don't think Thor will not underestimate BA I think it will be the other way around. 50/50 imop
Originally posted by the Darkone
Speed will not be an issue at all, it comes down who is more ruthless and who wants it more. I can see it 50/50 depending how they fight each other, if blackadam wants to brawl with Thor in a all out battle he will get smoke really fast godforce blast or getting hit with the hammer at full force. Black Adam is one of the toughest bad guys around I don't think Thor will not underestimate BA I think it will be the other way around. 50/50 imop
🤨 Black Adam isn't hurt by magical attacks. The Godforce blast would be like trying to hit him with water from a sprinkler 😬
I've never seen anything from Thor that would make me think he'd be on par speed-wise with BA. BA keeps up with Flash, both in general speed and REFLEXES. Thor just swings his hammer around 😬
All in all, Black Adam can avoid all of Thor's hits.
Assuming Thor manages to get a hit or two in, they won't hurt BA as much as BA's fists are going to hurt Thor ❌ .
I'm decided. BA wins 8/10 ..............at LEAST.
Originally posted by Dark Urizen
🤨 Black Adam isn't hurt by magical attacks. The Godforce blast would be like trying to hit him with water from a sprinkler 😬
I've never seen anything from Thor that would make me think he'd be on par speed-wise with BA. BA keeps up with Flash, both in general speed and REFLEXES. Thor just swings his hammer around 😬All in all, Black Adam can avoid all of Thor's hits.
Assuming Thor manages to get a hit or two in, they won't hurt BA as much as BA's fists are going to hurt Thor ❌ .I'm decided. BA wins 8/10 ..............at LEAST.
of course adam can fly. what i don't get is why people are saying magic won't affect him. circe took ba out easily with a spell. circe's magic is sourced in hecate, thor's in odin. skyfather>hecate.
thor's magic would certainly affect ba imo.
"dc herc never held the earth on his shoulders."
> WW stated this on panel before trying to move the Earth. Was also stated in War of The Gods iirc after his (Herc) encounter with Atlas.
"and a slight aside -- didn't draco post an issue number where zeus states ww is stronger than herc, or ww is second only to superman in strength? i could be wrong there, but i thought he'd posted that issue"
> Thus why i said -both- have statements claiming each is stronger. But there lay the differences, like WW stating he held the Earth and then not making it. And then not showing ever to be stronger than him.
"and where was it stated that supes and cm are exact equals? they are viewed as close, no doubt, but where is it said they are exact equals?"
> Frog Queen storyline where Superman and CM shared a common body. Superman itself stated it. Ill see if i get scans.
Superman/Batman # 3iirc where "Captain Marvel toe to toe has the advantage".
Everytime they stalemated > WW always viewed as second not as equal. Even in the non continuity stories CM is portraited and stated as such where WW is not. Like KC.
"though the recent supes/ww battle was close and she at least held her own"
> But always getting more battered than CM does when he faces SM. CM also does much or more damage without getting as hurt.
As for CM > Supes in durability (no Leonidas i didnt forgot) thats due his magical nature, ill try to get examples but fighting the Spectre from the get go even when he wasent juiced with all the magic its a pretty good example. Ill also get scans, thats the feelingi always had when reading both. If not ill concead.
"you're right of course. she may NOT be stronger. apparently adam is stronger than cm so stronger than herc and maybe ww. we went off on a bit of a tangent, but bottom line is that i still see
this match as too close to call"
> CM has won post crisis against Black Adam before. Theyr all in the same class.
"Black Adam isn't hurt by magical attacks. The Godforce blast would be like trying to hit him with water from a sprinkler"
> How come?
"I've never seen anything from Thor that would make me think he'd be on par speed-wise with BA. BA keeps up with Flash, both in general speed and REFLEXES. Thor just swings his hammer around "
> Not ON PAR but ALSO superfast. Wich means hell get some hits.
"Superman pretty much has no equal, he has people ON PAR or in his class"
> Except CM has been stated to be his equal more than once. Including in Supes own book.
"DC Heros are just that though, Heros. They play to the level of their opponents to get the win without killing them, ala Spiderman for example[One of Marvel's few actaul heros imo.]."
> Is this another explanation ala " Dc heroes are better in everything"?
Im not talking about killing. Im talking overall. Pll who are "superhuman" in speed have tagged speedsters. Sure they get less hits, but they get them. Comics shows that. Especially where combat speed is concerned.
.Like Hulk tagging Wman and Quicksilver.
.Like Heracles tagging Quicksilver and putting him down.
Originally posted by leonidas
so we have cm shrugging off a low level demon blast, but ba being felled and controlled easily by circe. hardly conclusive proof that ba is invulnerable to magic, urizen. it would seem perhaps low level magic, but thor's magic is anything but low.
Really? It is? 🤨
Could you....give me an example? 😕
Originally posted by leonidas
an example of what? thor's magic? 😑 i could give a hundred, starting with his shattering exitar or chasing off galactus. i mentioned ba was taken out by circe. not sure what you're asking . . . 🙁
Galactus was also knocked on his @ss and beaten by Vindicator and the other guy on Alpha Flight that can turn things into weapons so....🙁
Shattering Exitar or doing his best and nearly passing out and then realizing all he did was break the celestial dome which wouldn't all in all affect Exitar? 🙁
I'm not familiar with the circe fight i'm afraid, so i can't comment on what happened exactly, but i doubt it was that straight forward just magic bashing.
Originally posted by Dark Urizen
Galactus was also knocked on his @ss and beaten by Vindicator and the other guy on Alpha Flight that can turn things into weapons so....🙁
Shattering Exitar or doing his best and nearly passing out and then realizing all he did was break the celestial dome which wouldn't all in all affect Exitar? 🙁I'm not familiar with the circe fight i'm afraid, so i can't comment on what happened exactly, but i doubt it was that straight forward just magic bashing.
you ARE questioning the strength of thor's magic? seriously? he also destroyed desak with a god blast and he was using the destroyer armor! destroying exitar's dome was nothing? 😑 his hammer also held the power of the celestial bomb that was going to destroy a whole star system. and, and, cripes, there are too many. if you seriously doubt the power of thor's hammer you simply haven't read enough thor.
as far as the alpha flight/galactus incident -- difference is that in the universe where af fought him, g had access to none of his powers. he had to fight them with only his hands! and even still they barely beat him. not much of a feat.
as for ba/circe -- war of the gods 3. circe had the claw of set (nothing to do with ba's powers) and drew him to her, then cast a spell at him. he went down, got up and ran for his life. literally -- flew through the temple wall, terrified of her and desperate to get away from her.
ba is certainly not immune to magic -- at least not all magics or all levels of magic. there was also the time when the grey man took possession of cm's body via chaos magic. lastly, (though it IS it's a xover), thor did control cm's lightning in their fight. honestly, if you doubt the power of thor and his hammer, well . . . we really have nothing to debate about. 🙁
Originally posted by olympian
"dc herc never held the earth on his shoulders."> WW stated this on panel before trying to move the Earth. Was also stated in War of The Gods iirc after his (Herc) encounter with Atlas.
"and a slight aside -- didn't draco post an issue number where zeus states ww is stronger than herc, or ww is second only to superman in strength? i could be wrong there, but i thought he'd posted that issue"
> Thus why i said -both- have statements claiming each is stronger. But there lay the differences, like WW stating he held the Earth and then not making it. And then not showing ever to be stronger than him.
"and where was it stated that supes and cm are exact equals? they are viewed as close, no doubt, but where is it said they are exact equals?"
> Frog Queen storyline where Superman and CM shared a common body. Superman itself stated it. Ill see if i get scans.
Superman/Batman # 3iirc where "Captain Marvel toe to toe has the advantage".
Everytime they stalemated > WW always viewed as second not as equal. Even in the non continuity stories CM is portraited and stated as such where WW is not. Like KC.
"though the recent supes/ww battle was close and she at least held her own"
> But always getting more battered than CM does when he faces SM. CM also does much or more damage without getting as hurt.
As for CM > Supes in durability (no Leonidas i didnt forgot) thats due his magical nature, ill try to get examples but fighting the Spectre from the get go even when he wasent juiced with all the magic its a pretty good example. Ill also get scans, thats the feelingi always had when reading both. If not ill concead.
"you're right of course. she may NOT be stronger. apparently adam is stronger than cm so stronger than herc and maybe ww. we went off on a bit of a tangent, but bottom line is that i still see
this match as too close to call"> CM has won post crisis against Black Adam before. Theyr all in the same class.
"Black Adam isn't hurt by magical attacks. The Godforce blast would be like trying to hit him with water from a sprinkler"
> How come?
"I've never seen anything from Thor that would make me think he'd be on par speed-wise with BA. BA keeps up with Flash, both in general speed and REFLEXES. Thor just swings his hammer around "
> Not ON PAR but ALSO superfast. Wich means hell get some hits.
"Superman pretty much has no equal, he has people ON PAR or in his class"
> Except CM has been stated to be his equal more than once. Including in Supes own book.
"DC Heros are just that though, Heros. They play to the level of their opponents to get the win without killing them, ala Spiderman for example[One of Marvel's few actaul heros imo.]."
> Is this another explanation ala " Dc heroes are better in everything"?
Im not talking about killing. Im talking overall. Pll who are "superhuman" in speed have tagged speedsters. Sure they get less hits, but they get them. Comics shows that. Especially where combat speed is concerned.
.Like Hulk tagging Wman and Quicksilver.
.Like Heracles tagging Quicksilver and putting him down.
herc never held the earth in dc. scan shows that. i said their head-to-head battles are only a part fo what makes me think supes is stronger and more durable than both. believe me, i LOVE cm, but if it came down to it i'd give the edge to supes based on ALL they've done. you can't say because one hit the other more that he had 'the advantage' in the fight. the fights were inconclusive. that's all you can say. even when he sucker punched supes and was DRIPPING magic, he STILL couldn't lay him out with a shot. head-to-head between any of them tells us nothing, except that ww seemed to believe supes would eventually beat her and seemed to fear for everyone because max had supes.
"herc never held the earth in dc. scan shows that"
The statements that im talking about wer -after- that story.
Things to consider:
War of the Gods (written by the same man where that scan is from) in the saga dealt with this and you have statements that WW wasent stronger than him.
Then after Perez you had by Messner Loebs the only fight they had Post crisis ever. Wich was Diana going back in the past and taking her aunts place next to Hippolite in Heracles invasion centuries ago. Hippolite thinks its her sister but we readers know its Diana as seen by these scans:
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/2070/picture10603zm.jpg
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9619/picture10616bz.jpg
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/4773/picture10624sx.jpg
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9427/picture10tp.jpg
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/5324/picture10633vv.jpg
As DC Mithology goes, Hippolite was still the one to get him down, with a sneak attack this time. (note: Heracles durability wasent badly portaited here. One thing that even in the myths he wasent above every mortal as a demi-god, was his durability. Thus why he used the lion hide as an armour).
Continuing: as we know the posted scan its right in the beginning of post crisis (WW#14). Perez later stated otherwise. Other than that WOTG also dealt with another issue that Byrne later (after Loebs) would pick up. Wich is:
http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/6143/godssplit3au.jpg
http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/4271/godssplit18nd.jpg
"divided we fall"
There was a Heracles (the one in the scan you posted) and a Hercules, each weaker than the sum. Not only him but everyone of the Gods.
Finally, the last one was by WW on a Jla issue, where they tried to move Earth. (with Superman and someone else) where Kayle in the end shows up and does the deed. Anyone who has those scans can post it to see the statement.
Conclusion. After that particular scene you have the same writter stating something else in a future story . The next one showing her as less strong. And another stating that both versions exist and are weaker than the whole.
Dont know about you, but none of the choices actually makes me think shes stronger. At best shes about equal under some showings.
Btw the cronology is : Perez WW< Perez War of the Gods < Loebs WW < Byrne WW < current WW where the last statement showed up.
"believe me, i LOVE cm, but if it came down to it i'd give the edge to supes based on ALL they've done. you can't say because one hit the other more that he had 'the advantage' in the fight. the fights were inconclusiv"
Before i go on i have to say i agree with this. Superman does have more durability showings. No argument in that. My point is to show the instants where i belive the ones Marvel had are on a higher (even sligher) order. l will try getting scans these days (on this thread). Its not something urgent or important, if i check the examples i remember off and see they werent after all what i made them to be, i will concead.
"you can't say because one hit the other more that he had 'the advantage' in the fight. the fights were inconclusive"
You got me wrong here. It was Superman who said it while figthing him. And he did had the advantage toe to toe. (im assuming here your talking about SM/BM fight with Hawkman and Marvel).
Why? Superman in the end was bleeding and Marvel wasent even scratched. And this was without using any magic on his attacks.
"that's all you can say. even when he sucker punched supes and was DRIPPING magic, he STILL couldn't lay him out with a shot"
Your scretching it here. Dripping of magic was what he had against the Spectre. That example was just the hand. And not one shot no, it was two.
Virtue and Vice was one tho, altho sucker punched.
"head-to-head between any of them tells us nothing, except that ww seemed to believe supes would eventually beat her and seemed to fear for everyone because max had supes."
What they "think" and state between fights and out of it its important. Thats where the character differences are played. Superman saying Marvel toe to toe has the advantage OR that they are equals, its the same WW saying she cant take Supes punches (WW#175) or like in League of One saying she cant sucker punch him. Or that she can hold her own or take him with skills.
<<War of the Gods (written by the same man where that scan is from) in the saga dealt with this and you have statements that WW wasent stronger than him.>>
i've read wotg at least twice. where does it say that?
and in your first scans, is she fighting in her own body, or her aunt's? if she is seen as her aunt, maybe she has her aunt's body and strength.
who's kayle? you mean kyle?
and i showed a scan saying definitive;y that he never held the earth. you showed a bunch, but where is a scan that says conclusively that he did? i can't make out the writing in your last 2, so if it's there it's too small to read.
in any event, even allowing for whatever inconsistencies exist between ww/herc we can call them equal for the sake of debate, that's fine. but even if they are equal, cm=<herc (depending if you buy draco's theory about cm only having a portion of the gods' powers, but either way cm is certainly not > herc) then cm is still only =<ww. since it is acknowledged that supes>ww, then . . . supes also>cm. and loebs was silly in many ways. most would consider perez's ww the more accurate depiction of the character. not that it matters much as far as canon goes. 🙁
i'll not bother going into the history of supes/cm which certainly DOES and HAS played into their history and why they have always been shown to appear as equals. putting history aside, and taking everything into account, i still say supes > cm. though (as i said a long time ago) by only the slightest of margins.
which of course has nothing to do with the thread. oh well . . .
