Gladiator vs. Thanos

Originally posted by leonidas
difference being if supes did he'd KILL bats -- something he'd never do so there is a reason he doesn't. fighting mongul was another matter entirely. ss using his speed won't 'kill' thanos. that's the difference.

Superman was mind-controlled by Poison Ivy. He shot heat vision at Batman. If it hit Batman, Batman would have died. So he obviously didn't have a problem with trying to kill Batman.

i won't even be able to begin debating this with you. ss has shown often enough that he can attack and fight at those speeds.

Far less than half of his fights have Surfer showing combat speed feats (not to be confused with flying speed feats). In fact, I can only name one time specifically that I saw Surfer actually speedblitzing an opponent. I can think of several dozen on Superman's part.

Like I said in my post - Surfer uses combat speed maybe 3/10 fights. Superman 7/10. Do you dispute that? If so, on what grounds?

not enough to say that is then makes sense for him to NOT use it when an opponent has beat him down repeatedly. that requires pis/cis labels that i'll not grant.

But we've seen these fights in its entirety. We KNOW whether or not superspeed is being used. They've never been used against Thanos. I'm not assuming superspeed wasn't used...I'm looking at it and SEEING that superspeed isn't being used. It wasn't shown using the usual superspeed graphics, it wasn't mentioned by either the characters or the captions, there was absolutely nothing to suggest superspeed was a remote thought. Why apply an attribute to a battle when we clearly know it's not there?

Surfer's track record is to not use speed in fights, even when it would behoove him. Name Surfer's last 10 fights and tell me in how many he's attempted to use agility/FTL speed attacks to his advantage? Name Superman's last 10 fights. The difference between Surfer and Superman is that Superman is inclined to use it to his advantage.

Another example. Gladiator (since this is whom the tread is about) has fought at 100x the speed of light. In order to keep up, Thor needed the Fantastic Four to build him a device. But at the same time, we know that Thor and Gladiator have fought without Thor needing a device. Are we to assume, then, that Thor has the ability to deal with 100x FTL attacks on his own?

No - the correct assumption is that Gladiator didn't use 100x FTL attacks on Thor. Why didn't he? Ask Gladiator.

again, you're asking for too much to be verified. we can both play that game and extend it beyond reason. you're saying thanos beats ss by pis or because ss is a moron. he must also have beaten the fallen one for the same reason then. and the other heralds. it leads to too much. are all these instances pis/cis? again, he consistently beats them -- badly. how can something that happens consistently be cis/pis? why not label cm's attack or the others as pis/cis on thanos's part? to me that stands more to reason.

Who said the fallen one had FTL reflexes? Or any of the other heralds? All we know is that SS has it, but he RARELY uses it. Out of hundreds of battles he's been in, I doubt you can name more than five in which he's ever shown any kind of superspeed attacks.

Can you?

accept that he beats all these cosmics.
but they didn't use their speed!
why?
pis/cis.
everytime?!
then they were morons!
everytime!?

Well, it's not a given that any of those characters you named have any kind of FTL attacks at all. Looking at their track records, I've never seen any of them ever speedblitz anybody.

The same can't be said of Superman.

Though I'll grant you that the waters are a bit murkier when it comes to Gladiator. But Marvel doesn't really place the same premium on speed that DC does. And that's to Thanos' disadvantage.

g was a good example -- as keeper ss tried liek hell to run away from an ANGRY g -- he wasn't fast ENOUGH! when g finally gets po'd, he tags ss whenever he wants to. speed is irrelevent.

And when Thanos does the same thing against a fleeing or speeding Surfer, I'll be likewise impressed. He hasn't.

no feats accept other than consistent wins over speedsters.

Who don't use speed attacks. Again, I'm not *assuming* that they're not using speed attacks...I'm going by the actual battles. We know when we're seeing speed feats and when we're not. We've never seen them in battles against Thanos. More importantly when we do (and we know when we do), we've seen Thanos unable to deal with it effectively

I'm not sure if this is a real debate or just trolling, given what you've posted in other threads, but anyways....

When have we seen thanos unable to deal with speed?

When he is surprised by mar-vell? When he misses runner?

If being surprised or missing something is an indication of inferior speed, then I am slower than a punching bag. I have missed a punching bag when I wasn't patying attention, and I have been surprised periodically by the way the bag moves.

If that is all the evidence you can cite in your support, then by similar logic:

inanimate objects > me

in speed. So I might as well give up trying to move, because I obviously won't get anywhere, if inanimate objects are faster than me. I have missed them, and I have been surprised by their movement. (And apparently superman and virtually every other speedster also do not have superspeed, since they have missed, and have been surprised, by slower beings. Marvel and DC have been wrong all along about their powers!)

The vast weight of evidence, and an authoritative statement by marvel itself, support the proposition that thanos has the requiste reflexes to fight FTL enemies. He has detected AND reacted in multilple instnaces to FTL speed movement, and he has never shown incapability to deal with speed, as such.

If you want to invent some other character, name him thanos, and publish your own series of comics, then fine. Until then, I go with marvel's statement over yours.

Originally posted by slade10
When have we seen thanos unable to deal with speed?

That Captain Marvel scan showed an inability to react to it. So did his fight with Runner. Even the fact that Surfer was able to fly a lightyear in the span of time it took Thanos to throw a punch doesn't shine a positive light on him.

Compare that to Wonder Woman sneak attacking Superman and Superman instantaneously reacting and catching her hand in their battle. THAT is reacting to superspeed.

When he is surprised by mar-vell? When he misses runner?

If being surprised or missing something is an indication of inferior speed, then I am slower than a punching bag. I have missed a punching bag when I wasn't patying attention, and I have been surprised periodically by the way the bag moves.

And if you continue to miss the punching bag even when you are paying attention, it's because the punching bag is faster than you are.

If that is all the evidence you can cite in your support, then by similar logic:

inanimate objects > me

More accurately:

punching bag's movement > your movement.

And if you're unable to hit a punching bag after multiple tries, then it is indeed an accurate statement.

The vast weight of evidence, and an authoritative statement by marvel itself, support the proposition that thanos has the requiste reflexes to fight FTL enemies. He has detected AND reacted in multilple instnaces to FTL speed movement, and he has never shown incapability to deal with speed, as such.

The vast weight of evidence has shown no such thing. When has he successfully fought off a FTL attack? When has he successfully reacted to a FTL attack?

Slade has the ability to perceive lightspeed movements, and even the ability to react to them. But that doesn't mean he can keep up with Superman or Flash, just that he's able to perceive some of their movements.

Being able to see FTL motion and being able to fight against it or two very different things. Thanos has shown the former, but his track record against the latter is poor.

If you want to invent some other character, name him thanos, and publish your own series of comics, then fine. Until then, I go with marvel's statement over yours.

If I did invent a character named Thanos, I'd give him FTL speed movements so he wouldn't get owned by people like Superman...

The better question is....is Demigawd trolling?

<<Superman was mind-controlled by Poison Ivy. He shot heat vision at Batman. If it hit Batman, Batman would have died. So he obviously didn't have a problem with trying to kill Batman.>>

does heat vision move at ftl? for that matter, is batman 'faster' than the bullets he dodges all the time? again, not everything needs tobe or CAN be explained rationally. these ARE still comics and things can be shown for effect. pis? i don't think so.

<<Far less than half of his fights have Surfer showing combat speed feats (not to be confused with flying speed feats). In fact, I can only name one time specifically that I saw Surfer actually speedblitzing an opponent. I can think of several dozen on Superman's part.

Like I said in my post - Surfer uses combat speed maybe 3/10 fights. Superman 7/10. Do you dispute that? If so, on what grounds?>>

i don't dispute it at all. but the fact that he CAN attack at ftl and does at times if enough for me. means he could attack thanos and doesn't because:

a) he's a moron
b) pis/cis
c) he HAS attacked him at speeds and seen no good effect
d) knows that even if he did attack at ftl, thanos would deal with it

i like c and d, rather than attributing the reasons to a and c.

as far as the rest: you keep saying we haven't 'seen' them (ss/thanos) fighting at superspeed. couldn't i as easily claim they are both fighting at high speeds? it doesn't say they were fighting at 'regular speed' anywhere, so perhaps relative to each other it only appeared they weren't fighting at superspeed (as in the thor/glads fight you mentioned which also 'showed' no effects of either fighting at speed on reed's ship -- and it ws a SHIP they were on, not a device and glads was ON the ship as well -- how the whole device thing started i don't know.) i mean both ARE cosmially powered. why would they bother fighting at simple human speeds when neither is even human and FAR above??

once again -- i am not willing to say ss is a moron, or that it is all pis/cis. imo thanos can deal with ftl.

<<The better question is....is Demigawd trolling?>>

no, he just likes mixing it up with leo and gs. 😛

a) he's a moron
b) pis/cis
c) he HAS attacked him at speeds and seen no good effect
d) knows that even if he did attack at ftl, thanos would deal with it

I disagree with C and D. Surfer has never biltzed Thanos. And why whould he not speedbiltz when he clearly has the speed advantage?

Originally posted by King KAM
F'uck the JlaKm....wutever the eff its called, sounds like some effing girl scout troop to me.

that's what anyone who's NOT part of the jlakmc says . . . 😖hifty:

😆

Originally posted by dvampire
a) he's a moron
b) pis/cis
c) he HAS attacked him at speeds and seen no good effect
d) knows that even if he did attack at ftl, thanos would deal with it

I disagree with C and D. Surfer has never biltzed Thanos. And why whould he not speedbiltz when he clearly has the speed advantage?

so you're saying all their fights are pis/cis OR ss's a moron. that's fine. demi's saying the same thing.

i disagree.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Superman was mind-controlled by Poison Ivy. He shot heat vision at Batman. If it hit Batman, Batman would have died. So he obviously didn't have a problem with trying to kill Batman.>>

does heat vision move at ftl?

It was keeping up with Flash for awhile.

for that matter, is batman 'faster' than the bullets he dodges all the time? again, not everything needs tobe or CAN be explained rationally. these ARE still comics and things can be shown for effect. pis? i don't think so.

Aren't things not being explained rationally a form of PIS? Isn't Batman dodging machine gun fire, or Gambit deflecting bullets with his staff PIS for that very reason?

If so, you see it all the time. And that means PIS, in that sense, is widespread.

Likewise, if you know that a character is capable of doing something to make his life easier and he doesn't do it, is it better to assume that the art and the captions are all wrong, or that it just wasn't written into the plot?

<<Far less than half of his fights have Surfer showing combat speed feats (not to be confused with flying speed feats). In fact, I can only name one time specifically that I saw Surfer actually speedblitzing an opponent. I can think of several dozen on Superman's part.

Like I said in my post - Surfer uses combat speed maybe 3/10 fights. Superman 7/10. Do you dispute that? If so, on what grounds?>>

i don't dispute it at all. but the fact that he CAN attack at ftl and does at times if enough for me.

But WHY is it enough for you? You're essentially taking a MINORITY of showings and applying them to a MAJORITY of circumstances. Why is that right or fair? Why is that a better option than simply saying that it doesn't come as naturally to certain characters as it does others?

means he could attack thanos and doesn't because:

a) he's a moron
b) pis/cis
c) he HAS attacked him at speeds and seen no good effect
d) knows that even if he did attack at ftl, thanos would deal with it

i like c and d, rather than attributing the reasons to a and c.

But then you're attributing feats that weren't seen to a battle that was seen. You're essentially saying that we didn't see something that we did see. We saw this battles...we know that there weren't speed feats. Hell, in the fights between Surfer and Thanos, there weren't even any mid-battle cut scenes where you could even creatively insert some FTL action. We've seen the battles in its entirety. Surfer blasts Thanos ONCE. Thanos shakes it off and proceeds to beat Surfer to unconsciousness. There's nowhere there to add even creative license to account for superspeed. Surfer blasted Thanos one time, then panicked when he saw there was no effect.

So you have to make a choice, Leonidas. Either the artists and the captions and the dialogue all must be ignored, or you have to go with Surfer choosing not to use FTL attacks.

as far as the rest: you keep saying we haven't 'seen' them (ss/thanos) fighting at superspeed. couldn't i as easily claim they are both fighting at high speeds? it doesn't say they were fighting at 'regular speed' anywhere, so perhaps relative to each other it only appeared they weren't fighting at superspeed (as in the thor/glads fight you mentioned which also 'showed' no effects of either fighting at speed on reed's ship -- and it ws a SHIP they were on, not a device and glads was ON the ship as well -- how the whole device thing started i don't know.) i mean both ARE cosmially powered. why would they bother fighting at simple human speeds when neither is even human and FAR above??

Because we've seen how Thanos reacts to the actual application of superspeed. And we've seen Surfer actually USE superspeed attacks on cosmics and we've seen the difference. And like I said above, looking at their battles, there really isn't anyplace to even creatively add superspeed license to it. And saying that all cosmic battles are superspeed is an even bigger stretch than saying that Surfer just chooses not to fight in superspeed at times. Especially when we know that Surfer's natural inclination is to not use superspeed in fights.

once again -- i am not willing to say ss is a moron, or that it is all pis/cis. imo thanos can deal with ftl.

You make it sound like Surfer has fought Thanos dozens of times. They've only fought a few times...more than enough for CIS/PIS to cover it, especially when you examine Surfer's actual FTL attacking track record with any kind of scrutiny.

Originally posted by demigawd
[B]It was keeping up with Flash for awhile.

Aren't things not being explained rationally a form of PIS? Isn't Batman dodging machine gun fire, or Gambit deflecting bullets with his staff PIS for that very reason?

If so, you see it all the time. And that means PIS, in that sense, is widespread.

Likewise, if you know that a character is capable of doing something to make his life easier and he doesn't do it, is it better to assume that the art and the captions are all wrong, or that it just wasn't written into the plot?

if you're willing to go to that extent than OF COURSE it is widespread. it is a comicbook after all. it's why this level of scrutiny always fails and we need to resort to cis/pis. but i prefer to save pis/cis labels for something . . . 'special'. bats always dodges bullets, so to see him do so is nothing special. he's dodged lasers, so dodging supes heat vision is not even all that special. flash was NOT moving at c when the vision nearly caught up to him, btw.

But WHY is it enough for you? You're essentially taking a MINORITY of showings and applying them to a MAJORITY of circumstances. Why is that right or fair? Why is that a better option than simply saying that it doesn't come as naturally to certain characters as it does others?

it's enough because the fact that he DOES at times use his speed tells me there must be a reason he's NOT using it, even if that reason needs to be inferred. i hate bios as well, but godlike reflexes can cover a lot of ground.

But then you're attributing feats that weren't seen to a battle that was seen. You're essentially saying that we didn't see something that we did see. We saw this battles...we know that there weren't speed feats. Hell, in the fights between Surfer and Thanos, there weren't even any mid-battle cut scenes where you could even creatively insert some FTL action. We've seen the battles in its entirety. Surfer blasts Thanos ONCE. Thanos shakes it off and proceeds to beat Surfer to unconsciousness. There's nowhere there to add even creative license to account for superspeed. Surfer blasted Thanos one time, then panicked when he saw there was no effect.

so again, we're left with WHY he's not using his speed. you say pis/cis or he's an idiot, i say uh-uh to both, becasue thanos has been too consistent in his dealings with cosmics for me to say that a simple ftl attack is something he couldn't deal with. whether they have been 'shown' attacking at the speed doesn't matter as much as the question WHY they aren't shown attacking at those speeds. i say it's because they know thanos could deal with it -- unless one of them as the space gem.

So you have to make a choice, Leonidas. Either the artists and the captions and the dialogue all must be ignored, or you have to go with Surfer choosing not to use FTL attacks.

or c i can logically infer based on what i know of thanos and what i've seen him capable of and ASSUME he's capable of dealing with that speed. i could use the marvel bio for support, but i wouldn't. my own experience with thanos tells me all i need to know.

Because we've seen how Thanos reacts to the actual application of superspeed. And we've seen Surfer actually USE superspeed attacks on cosmics and we've seen the difference. And like I said above, looking at their battles, there really isn't anyplace to even creatively add superspeed license to it. And saying that all cosmic battles are superspeed is an even bigger stretch than saying that Surfer just chooses not to fight in superspeed at times. Especially when we know that Surfer's natural inclination is to not use superspeed in fights.

why a stretch? both ARE cosmic. both ARE non-human. both HAVE ftl reflexes. or maybe as i said they are fighting at normal speed cuz ss knows his speed wouldn't help him.

You make it sound like Surfer has fought Thanos dozens of times. They've only fought a few times...more than enough for CIS/PIS to cover it, especially when you examine Surfer's actual FTL attacking track record with any kind of scrutiny.

they've fought often enough and thanos has fought other heralds/cosmics often enough for me to feel safe in my assumption that ftl speed wouldn't make a difference against thanos.

Originally posted by leonidas
if you're willing to go to that extent than OF COURSE it is widespread. it is a comicbook after all. it's why this level of scrutiny always fails and we need to resort to cis/pis. but i prefer to save pis/cis labels for something . . . 'special'. bats always dodges bullets, so to see him do so is nothing special. he's dodged lasers, so dodging supes heat vision is not even all that special. flash was NOT moving at c when the vision nearly caught up to him, btw.

CIS/PIS should be saved for something "special" now? What are you, a chick talking about sex?

PIS is standard to be found at least once in every issue of every comic- you can't just dismiss it being a likely explanation just because it's not "special" enough for you, lol.

it's enough because the fact that he DOES at times use his speed tells me there must be a reason he's NOT using it, even if that reason needs to be inferred. i hate bios as well, but godlike reflexes can cover a lot of ground.

It covers too much ground, and that's the problem. All you're doing is speculating as to why he's not using his speed. I'm speculating too, and they're both worth crap. All that matters is that he's NOT using speed against Thanos. And as such, we don't know Thanos' ability to deal with it and as such we can't just assume that he can against an opponent where speed is an innate part of his battle strategy in EVERY issue.

so again, we're left with WHY he's not using his speed. you say pis/cis or he's an idiot, i say uh-uh to both, becasue thanos has been too consistent in his dealings with cosmics for me to say that a simple ftl attack is something he couldn't deal with.

You're basing your belief on the fact that Thanos had fought too many cosmics for him not to have FTL combat experience. But in Marvel...what combat speed feats have any of these cosmics shown? Where are the combat speed feats of Terrax, or Air Walker, or Thor, or Fallen One or anybody else? In truth, there's no evidence to support that ANYBODY Thanos has fought except Runner, Cap Marvel Silver Surfer has combat speed feats. And only two have specifically used combat speed feats against him.

And in BOTH of those cases, Thanos has been flummoxed by those speed feats. That has to count for something, Leo.

Remember, speed is only commonplace in DC. You rarely find it in Marvel, even among the cosmics.

whether they have been 'shown' attacking at the speed doesn't matter as much as the question WHY they aren't shown attacking at those speeds.

That can't be right, because the "why" is subject to 100% speculation, until Surfer actually gives a reason.

i say it's because they know thanos could deal with it -- unless one of them as the space gem.

Essentially, you're assuming Thanos fought a battle that was never shown or spoken of where everybody witnessed Thanos fighting someone who used a speed attack that failed miserably and from there, word got out that "Don't try any speed attacks...they don't work".

And from there, Surfer decided that since speed is useless against Thanos, he'd better just skip it altogether, and use an energy attack instead.

Which failed.

Again.

Did I about get that right?

or c i can logically infer based on what i know of thanos and what i've seen him capable of and ASSUME he's capable of dealing with that speed. i could use the marvel bio for support, but i wouldn't. my own experience with thanos tells me all i need to know.

Your own experience would tell you that Thanos has faced speed twice and been frustrated both times. He's been energy blasted dozens of times and been completely unphased by it.

Which is less effective?

why a stretch? both ARE cosmic. both ARE non-human. both HAVE ftl reflexes. or maybe as i said they are fighting at normal speed cuz ss knows his speed wouldn't help him.

And his energy blast worked really well.

This goes back to the fact that Surfer really isn't a warrior at heart. Surfer lost to Thor. Thor stalemated the Hulk. Hulk has trouble touching Spider-Man in fights. Logically speaking, speed would work beautifully against Thor, but Surfer never used it. Is that also because Surfer knows how ineffective it would be against Thor? Where is the line drawn with assumptions, especially when you're pitting them against the actual fights that we've seen ourselves?

they've fought often enough and thanos has fought other heralds/cosmics often enough for me to feel safe in my assumption that ftl speed wouldn't make a difference against thanos.

That assumption would be safer if ANY Marvel cosmics have shown combat speed feats. Firelord has been out-maneuvered by the likes of Spider-Man.

<<CIS/PIS should be saved for something "special" now? What are you, a chick talking about sex?

PIS is standard to be found at least once in every issue of every comic- you can't just dismiss it being a likely explanation just because it's not "special" enough for you, lol.>>

cis occurs when characters act OUT OF CHARACTER. how do we determine what is IN character? by their consistent actions. bats dodging bullets is consistent if not rationally/real world feasible. it's not cis just because it couldn't happen in the REAL world. that's ridiculous.

<<That can't be right, because the "why" is subject to 100% speculation, until Surfer actually gives a reason.>>

but it's the reason we're questioning. you have your reasons why you say he doesn't use speed, i have mine. yours rely on trying to fit real world logic into a comic and because it dosn't fit calling it pis/cis. i'm not about to do that. ss does have cosmic awareness, as does cm. they would know full well thanos could answer their speed.

<<Essentially, you're assuming Thanos fought a battle that was never shown or spoken of where everybody witnessed Thanos fighting someone who used a speed attack that failed miserably and from there, word got out that "Don't try any speed attacks...they don't work".

And from there, Surfer decided that since speed is useless against Thanos, he'd better just skip it altogether, and use an energy attack instead.

Which failed.

Again.

Did I about get that right?>>

and you think that every cosmic just hasn't bothered attacking him with speed because . . . pis/cis? stupidity?

<<This goes back to the fact that Surfer really isn't a warrior at heart. Surfer lost to Thor. Thor stalemated the Hulk. Hulk has trouble touching Spider-Man in fights. Logically speaking, speed would work beautifully against Thor, but Surfer never used it. Is that also because Surfer knows how ineffective it would be against Thor? Where is the line drawn with assumptions, especially when you're pitting them against the actual fights that we've seen ourselves?>>

and if we don't assume/infer, we are forced to call everything pis/cis. ❌

<<That assumption would be safer if ANY Marvel cosmics have shown combat speed feats. Firelord has been out-maneuvered by the likes of Spider-Man.>>

and we've come full circle. cuz they don't show it they don't have it. i don't believe that.

gotta roll. always fun. 😉

Originally posted by leonidas
<<CIS/PIS should be saved for something "special" now? What are you, a chick talking about sex?

PIS is standard to be found at least once in every issue of every comic- you can't just dismiss it being a likely explanation just because it's not "special" enough for you, lol.>>

cis occurs when characters act OUT OF CHARACTER. how do we determine what is IN character? by their consistent actions. bats dodging bullets is consistent if not rationally/real world feasible. it's not cis just because it couldn't happen in the REAL world. that's ridiculous.

Batman dodging bullets has nothing to do with his character and everything to do with plot. When Batman is in a 10 x 12 room and an army of thugs with machine guys are shooting at him and he's dodging them all...it's PIS. Commonplace PIS, yes...but still PIS.

<<That can't be right, because the "why" is subject to 100% speculation, until Surfer actually gives a reason.>>

but it's the reason we're questioning.

You don't get a free pass. It wasn't the reasoning we were questioning before - before you were trying to say that Thanos HAS dealt with lighspeed attacks, we just haven't see it. Then it was Surfer really WAS fighting Thanos with lightspeed attacks, but they're both so fast that it looked like normal speed.

NOW you're saying that Surfer wasn't, in fact, using lightspeed attacks against Thanos and we have to question why.

You're saying that his cosmic awareness told him that lightspeed attacks would fail so he didn't use it. If that's true, doesn't it stand to reason that his cosmic awareness would have also told Surfer that his energy attack would have been worthless against Thanos? Didn't stop him from trying, did it?

Your logic of, "Surfer didn't use FTL attacks because Surfer knew that it wouldn't work" falls apart in the face of the other things Surfer tried and failed to do to Thanos. If he really listened to his cosmic awareness, he never would have fought Thanos in the first place, lol.

No, a far more logical conclusion is that Surfer's pacifist nature prevents him from doing everything necessary to defeat an opponent. It's in character, and it jives well with the actual showings. It's the best answer to the question "why".

you have your reasons why you say he doesn't use speed, i have mine. yours rely on trying to fit real world logic into a comic and because it dosn't fit calling it pis/cis. i'm not about to do that. ss does have cosmic awareness, as does cm. they would know full well thanos could answer their speed.

Except Thanos couldn't answer CM's speed. Or Runner's. Why do you ignore these cases?

Mine doesn't try to fit real world logic...mine uses what's on the damn paper I'm looking at showing the lack of combat speed techniques against Thanos, lol.

and you think that every cosmic just hasn't bothered attacking him with speed because . . . pis/cis? stupidity?

No, because they can't do it. I keep saying (and you keep ignoring) that Marvel cosmics don't have FTL combat speed as a given. Just because they're "cosmic" doesn't mean that FTL punching, kicking and blasting are innate. They're not. Not in Marvel.

You keep ignoring that.

and if we don't assume/infer, we are forced to call everything pis/cis. ❌

No, if we don't assume/infer, we're forced to call it as it is. Which is what we should be doing.

and we've come full circle. cuz they don't show it they don't have it. i don't believe that.

These characters have been around twice as long as any of us.

A dozen or more of them.

Hundreds and hundreds of appearances and fights apiece.

They don't have a single combat speed feat to their credit.

C'mon, Leo.

I expect to see better when you come back! 😛

Originally posted by dvampire
Which puts him at a even bigger disadvantage.

Originally posted by demigawd
No I didn't. Coming from someone who said that Thanos beat Oblivion, an abstract of the universe and who pulled a weight for Thanos ship out of your ass, you have 0 credibility to recount something accurately.

I agreed with him that Franklin Richards could beat Galactus. Don't extrapolate...that's what usually gets you in trouble in debates.

Now shoo.

hahaha....that's even worse, isn't it? He uses his chair for flight, similar to Surfer's board.

I think you'd be better suited for a Wolverine thread. This is clearly out of your league. Begone.

Bottom Line is, Gladiator had thanos fight someone he KNEW he couldnt take, and thanos took Her extremley easy, even after taking a powerful blast Glads ran from, If Gladiator has to fight Thanos his confidence goes down, WHO???? Is confident against fighting opponents they KNOW are stronger???no-one that goes against psychology.

Originally posted by demigawd
[B]Batman dodging bullets has nothing to do with his character and everything to do with plot. When Batman is in a 10 x 12 room and an army of thugs with machine guys are shooting at him and he's dodging them all...it's PIS. Commonplace PIS, yes...but still PIS.

is it out of character for him to do that? no. so why on earth would it be pis/cis? i still say you throw that term around too liberally.

You don't get a free pass. It wasn't the reasoning we were questioning before - before you were trying to say that Thanos HAS dealt with lighspeed attacks, we just haven't see it. Then it was Surfer really WAS fighting Thanos with lightspeed attacks, but they're both so fast that it looked like normal speed.

NOW you're saying that Surfer wasn't, in fact, using lightspeed attacks against Thanos and we have to question why.

You're saying that his cosmic awareness told him that lightspeed attacks would fail so he didn't use it. If that's true, doesn't it stand to reason that his cosmic awareness would have also told Surfer that his energy attack would have been worthless against Thanos? Didn't stop him from trying, did it?

Your logic of, "Surfer didn't use FTL attacks because Surfer knew that it wouldn't work" falls apart in the face of the other things Surfer tried and failed to do to Thanos. If he really listened to his cosmic awareness, he never would have fought Thanos in the first place, lol.

😆 free pass. heheh. thing is the reason he doesn't use speed IS at the heart of the debate. i don't believe i've said anywhere that he HAS dealt with ftl attacks, (though its possible, i'v enot read all the thanos series or all his appearances) but rather that by his nature he should be more than capable of doing so. big difference. and you ended on a point i was going to raise myself: why BOTHER having ss fight thanos at all? clearly he can't beat him, so what's the point? point is we like to see a hero struggle against overwhelming odds. if all it took was a speedblitz to beat thanos, he wouldn't last very long i'm afraid. his whole existence would then be attributable to pis. glads blitzes and kills him. ss blitzes and kills him. firelord (who has blitzed thor and herc in the past) does the same. in fact any herald can move ftl and do loads of damage. thor can also travel ftl, so he would kill him. beta ray bill. maybe cap marvel. certainly quasar. i've never seen inbetweener move ftl either, so they kill him while thy're at it. and the stranger. and the plethora of other cosmics who've not shown the ability to move at ftl.

if he has godlike reflexes (as stated by marvel) why WOULDN' he be able to react to ftl attacks? you're only ONLY reason is because you haven't seen anyone try, and because spidey dodged his blast and cm hit/surprised him. i still fail to see why THOSE shouldn't be viewed as pis. how about if he simply teleports out of the way of the attack, reappears behind and attacks? he can react, that's not the same as your famous 'combat speed' . . . why not?

No, a far more logical conclusion is that Surfer's pacifist nature prevents him from doing everything necessary to defeat an opponent. It's in character, and it jives well with the actual showings. It's the best answer to the question "why".

hahah. that's YOUR best answer. trouble is, that means there has been so much pis/cis in his appearances that his whole character is a lie. the univserse need not fear thanos. HE should fear anyone with ftl capabilities! 🙄

Except Thanos couldn't answer CM's speed. Or Runner's. Why do you ignore these cases?

runner had the gem, cm's was apparently a surprise attack -- i may have that issue but i'm not sure which battle he's talking about. i could ask who, besides runner, he has ever missed with an attack? unless of course ss and all the others just WANT to be hit by his blasts. you see, that's what you're implying by saying pis/cis.

Mine doesn't try to fit real world logic...mine uses what's on the damn paper I'm looking at showing the lack of combat speed techniques against Thanos, lol.

you ARE trying to use real world logic. if YOU had ftl you'd attack thanos with it. ss has it so you thinl he should use it and you say cuz he doesn't it's pis. beyond that, you're questioning ANY cosmic who hasn't shown such feats on paper of being capable of DEALING with such attacks.

by your logic, a gl will annihilate a guardian cuz to the best of my knowledge no guardian has shown ftl ability and speed of thought<<<<then speed of light so their mental powers won't save them from a ftl blitz! ludicrous!

No, because they can't do it. I keep saying (and you keep ignoring) that Marvel cosmics don't have FTL combat speed as a given. Just because they're "cosmic" doesn't mean that FTL punching, kicking and blasting are innate. They're not. Not in Marvel.

You keep ignoring that.

😆 why in heaven's name not? cuz it's 'not shown'. you are right, there are almost no examples (beyond the galactus one i referenced earlier) that i can think of off the top of my head. i do know that the dreaming celestial (before g devoured it) chased reed's ultimately fast ship (where glads and thor fought) by just REACHING OUT FOR IT! his hand was GAINING on the ship even as it travelled through different eras of time! clearly g and the celestials (at least THAT one) are capable -- if they choose -- of moving at ftl. so that's 2. so just those 2 are capable of it? c'mon, demi, you must be kidding . . .

No, if we don't assume/infer, we're forced to call it as it is. Which is what we should be doing.

no. what we should be doing is using our own knowledge of characters, and be willing to accept that not everything needs to be shown to you.

These characters have been around twice as long as any of us.

A dozen or more of them.

Hundreds and hundreds of appearances and fights apiece.

They don't have a single combat speed feat to their credit.

C'mon, Leo.

I expect to see better when you come back! 😛

maybe twice as long as YOU have . . .. 😄

thor has been shown capable of throwing his hammer ftl. i mentioned g and the celestial. and really, it won't get any better, i'm afraid. you are clamoring for evidence that is unlikely to be revealed. personally, i need no evidence. not everything needs to be 'proven on paper' to me. i'll trust my own knowledge of characters (and recognize the illogic of callling all these things cis/pis) to help me decide this issue.

common sense is my shield! 😄

Update: Over on the Surfer vs. Superman thread, a similar discussion is taking place, and it turns out that Surfer doesn't have ANY combat speed feats. Or at least no scans of it.

That makes the case for Thanos being able to react to FTL combat grows even more dubious.

All of your examples make use of flight/travel speed. None of them make use of combat speed.

So what does that mean? It means your assumption that Thanos has dealt with FTL attacks by virtue of fighting cosmic beings has 0 grounding, because NONE of Thanos' opponents short of Runner and CM have shown any sort of FTL combat ability....at all.

In other words...there's no longer any point in arguing why, when the 'if' is now in question.

So to summarize: Your assumption was that Thanos can deal with FTL combat speed because he fights cosmics. You then further assume that cosmics are able to fight at FTL combat speeds. But now, it seems that the cosmics he fights don't actually fight at FTL combat speeds themselves, which throws out your very assumption that Thanos can deal with FTL combat speed. As it stands, he's rarely even encountered it, and when he has, he's shown no ability to deal with it.

Additionally - the scans were posted. Thanos didn't react to Surfer trying to grab the gauntlet at FTL speed. Sufer missed.

Originally posted by demigawd
Update: Over on the Surfer vs. Superman thread, a similar discussion is taking place, and it turns out that Surfer doesn't have ANY combat speed feats. Or at least no scans of it.

That makes the case for Thanos being able to react to FTL combat grows even more dubious.

All of your examples make use of flight/travel speed. None of them make use of combat speed.

So what does that mean? It means your assumption that Thanos has dealt with FTL attacks by virtue of fighting cosmic beings has 0 grounding, because NONE of Thanos' opponents short of Runner and CM have shown any sort of FTL combat ability....at all.

In other words...there's no longer any point in arguing why, when the 'if' is now in question.

So to summarize: Your assumption was that Thanos can deal with FTL combat speed because he fights cosmics. You then further assume that cosmics are able to fight at FTL combat speeds. But now, it seems that the cosmics he fights don't actually fight at FTL combat speeds themselves, which throws out your very assumption that Thanos can deal with FTL combat speed. As it stands, he's rarely even encountered it, and when he has, he's shown no ability to deal with it.

Additionally - the scans were posted. Thanos didn't react to Surfer trying to grab the gauntlet at FTL speed. Sufer missed.

Originally posted by King KAM
He defeated God-Like Cable.....

So?

Originally posted by leonidas
is it out of character for him to do that? no. so why on earth would it be pis/cis? i still say you throw that term around too liberally.

😆 free pass. heheh. thing is the reason he doesn't use speed IS at the heart of the debate. i don't believe i've said anywhere that he HAS dealt with ftl attacks, (though its possible, i'v enot read all the thanos series or all his appearances) but rather that by his nature he should be more than capable of doing so. big difference. and you ended on a point i was going to raise myself: why BOTHER having ss fight thanos at all? clearly he can't beat him, so what's the point? point is we like to see a hero struggle against overwhelming odds. if all it took was a speedblitz to beat thanos, he wouldn't last very long i'm afraid. his whole existence would then be attributable to pis. glads blitzes and kills him. ss blitzes and kills him. firelord (who has blitzed thor and herc in the past) does the same. in fact any herald can move ftl and do loads of damage. thor can also travel ftl, so he would kill him. beta ray bill. maybe cap marvel. certainly quasar. i've never seen inbetweener move ftl either, so they kill him while thy're at it. and the stranger. and the plethora of other cosmics who've not shown the ability to move at ftl.

if he has godlike reflexes (as stated by marvel) why WOULDN' he be able to react to ftl attacks? you're only ONLY reason is because you haven't seen anyone try, and because spidey dodged his blast and cm hit/surprised him. i still fail to see why THOSE shouldn't be viewed as pis. how about if he simply teleports out of the way of the attack, reappears behind and attacks? he can react, that's not the same as your famous 'combat speed' . . . why not?

hahah. that's YOUR best answer. trouble is, that means there has been so much pis/cis in his appearances that his whole character is a lie. the univserse need not fear thanos. HE should fear anyone with ftl capabilities! 🙄

runner had the gem, cm's was apparently a surprise attack -- i may have that issue but i'm not sure which battle he's talking about. i could ask who, besides runner, he has ever missed with an attack? unless of course ss and all the others just WANT to be hit by his blasts. you see, that's what you're implying by saying pis/cis.

you ARE trying to use real world logic. if YOU had ftl you'd attack thanos with it. ss has it so you thinl he should use it and you say cuz he doesn't it's pis. beyond that, you're questioning ANY cosmic who hasn't shown such feats on paper of being capable of DEALING with such attacks.

by your logic, a gl will annihilate a guardian cuz to the best of my knowledge no guardian has shown ftl ability and speed of thought<<<<then speed of light so their mental powers won't save them from a ftl blitz! ludicrous!

😆 why in heaven's name not? cuz it's 'not shown'. you are right, there are almost no examples (beyond the galactus one i referenced earlier) that i can think of off the top of my head. i do know that the dreaming celestial (before g devoured it) chased reed's ultimately fast ship (where glads and thor fought) by just REACHING OUT FOR IT! his hand was GAINING on the ship even as it travelled through different eras of time! clearly g and the celestials (at least THAT one) are capable -- if they choose -- of moving at ftl. so that's 2. so just those 2 are capable of it? c'mon, demi, you must be kidding . . .

no. what we should be doing is using our own knowledge of characters, and be willing to accept that not everything needs to be shown to you.

maybe twice as long as YOU have . . .. 😄

thor has been shown capable of throwing his hammer ftl. i mentioned g and the celestial. and really, it won't get any better, i'm afraid. you are clamoring for evidence that is unlikely to be revealed. personally, i need no evidence. not everything needs to be 'proven on paper' to me. i'll trust my own knowledge of characters (and recognize the illogic of callling all these things cis/pis) to help me decide this issue.

common sense is my shield! 😄

WHOA!! This sh*t was good. I cant say it any better than this Leo. Youre on fire!!! 😱

This is ridiculous. Demis just hurting because its been highlighted how Magneto can get taken down by FTL attacks so now he's just trying to soften the blow by including Thanos in that category. 😱

Surely you've noticed his recent strong support for Superman and the like? 😉