Originally posted by Darth Windu
Kam. . . .that actually made sense! Good job.And yes, I think that in a full-blown battle, Sidious would win. But he'd have to use the same tactics as he did against Yoda; retreating and blasting the enemy with Force powers and debris. If Dooku got Sidious into a saber duel, the Master would get owned. BUt as long as Sidious can stay a step ahead, he can win it.
Sidious is always like 8 steps ahead.
Originally posted by Darth Windu
We must have seen different movies. I went to see ROTS again on Saturday. Sidious was rushed by Yoda, and pretty badly, too. He was barely ahead. But that's Yoda. He might fare a little better against Dooku.
The fight against yoda went just as it had been foreseen...
No. The battle with Yoda was NOT forseen - hence Sidious's reluctance to battle Yoda. If Sidious did forsee Yoda's arrival, he would have been more prepared instead of trying to leave like he did. No. Yoda's arrival was unexpected - and that is why Sidious fought for his life. Normally, he's in control of everything. But this was one variable that escaped his grasp.
Here is my theory.
Count Dooku and Darth Sidious are both Dark Lords of The Sith. That much is evident. However, Sidious was the master. Dooku never tried to usurp him. If Dooku was so much more powerful than Sidious, he would have struck him down. Sidious and Yoda are about on equal level. If many people believed Yoda would've slaughtered Count Dooku in the hanger when they dueled, Sidious would've done the same. I believe Count Dooku is vastly underrated, however. Especially when people go off and say Mace could defeat him.
To me, Count Dooku is more of a master of a lightsaber than his Force powers. If he would ever best Sidious in any department, dueling would be the closest that he could get. We sure as hell know that Sidious was much more keen and tapped into the ways of the Force - especially the Dark Side - than Dooku was. Otherwise Dooku would've offed Sidious years ago. To me, Sidious is younger than Dooku, and yet more powerful. Sidious probably has the stronger connection to the Force.
Count Dooku, in my eyes, could best anyone in the prequal trilogy save for Yoda and Sidious. And this is where things get interesting. Anakin killed Dooku in battle. Some attribute Dooku's failure to Sidious's orders. That's what the BOOK says. If that is true, then Sidious is indeed more powerful than Dooku - because the BOOK says so. Dooku's own thoughts in the book state that "no one was more keen to the ways of the Dark Side than Lord Sidious."
Anyways. I like Count Dooku, I really do. But I do believe that if he ever dueled Sidious in battle or especially in the Force - he would put up a good fight - almost as good as Yoda did - but in the end would fall to the blade of his Dark master.
Kam. . . .that actually made sense! Good job.
And yes, I think that in a full-blown battle, Sidious would win. But he'd have to use the same tactics as he did against Yoda; retreating and blasting the enemy with Force powers and debris. If Dooku got Sidious into a saber duel, the Master would get owned. BUt as long as Sidious can stay a step ahead, he can win it.
Dooku can easily use the force as shown in ATOC. Yoda and Dooku matched blade for blade neither winning nor losing. Dooku retreated yes but he did because he had the plans for the DeathStar. Sidious distance himself from Yoda knowing he'll lose if he doesn't do something.
And Sidious uses a more offensive form and Dooku is based more on his defense. I will have to say Dooku considering the facts that Dooku trained for well around 8 decades and Sidious might not have trained due to fear the Jedi will sense him when he arrived at the Senate.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Here is my theory.Count Dooku and Darth Sidious are both Dark Lords of The Sith. That much is evident. However, Sidious was the master. Dooku never tried to usurp him. If Dooku was so much more powerful than Sidious, he would have struck him down. Sidious and Yoda are about on equal level. If many people believed Yoda would've slaughtered Count Dooku in the hanger when they dueled, Sidious would've done the same. I believe Count Dooku is vastly underrated, however. Especially when people go off and say Mace could defeat him.
To me, Count Dooku is more of a master of a lightsaber than his Force powers. If he would ever best Sidious in any department, dueling would be the closest that he could get. We sure as hell know that Sidious was much more keen and tapped into the ways of the Force - especially the Dark Side - than Dooku was. Otherwise Dooku would've offed Sidious years ago. To me, Sidious is younger than Dooku, and yet more powerful. Sidious probably has the stronger connection to the Force.
Count Dooku, in my eyes, could best anyone in the prequal trilogy save for Yoda and Sidious. And this is where things get interesting. Anakin killed Dooku in battle. Some attribute Dooku's failure to Sidious's orders. That's what the BOOK says. If that is true, then Sidious is indeed more powerful than Dooku - because the BOOK says so. Dooku's own thoughts in the book state that "no one was more keen to the ways of the Dark Side than Lord Sidious."
Anyways. I like Count Dooku, I really do. But I do believe that if he ever dueled Sidious in battle or especially in the Force - he would put up a good fight - almost as good as Yoda did - but in the end would fall to the blade of his Dark master.
. If Dooku was so much more powerful than Sidious, he would have struck him down.
Sidious is manipulative bastard! He has ways to cloud people visions and change perception. If he managed to swing someone as powerful as Count Dooku under his wing, what makes you think he wont cloud him from taking his mantle of master?
As for the Dooku/Yoda fight, Dooku was doing just fine during the entire fight, if not better. As i recall, Yoda was making grunts and noises as Dooku smiled throughout their fight. Dooku fled because he obtained the Death Star plans.
Sidious probably would not fight Dooku with the Force, but with a Lightsaber. The battle would be long and hard, But Dooku would strike Sidious down in a Lightsaber fight! People heavily underestimate Dooku's Lightsaber skills. They are near complete perfection. Dooku's strikes are swift, on time and corusive. Sidious' form is more of a direct form based apon anger and appared swings to your opponent. When it comes to Lightsabers, folks....
Dooku would just flat out ruin Sidious' shit. Sidious is not this "unstoppable god" when it comes to Lightsabers. Hell, he isn't a god with anything else, although his manipulation is close.
because the BOOK says so.
The book also says that Kit Fisto is beheaded and his head is placed apon the desk. In the movie, his chest is slashed and there is no beheading. Get my drift?
One of the only reasons Anakin won the fight with Dooku was because of Anakin's physical strength. During the end of the fight, Dooku is about to lay it to Anakin when Anakin grabs Dooku's wrists and pushes his Lightsaber over them, cutting Dooku's hands off.
In my honest opinion, Sidious would fall to Dooku.
Lol, I don't recall Dooku smiling in his duel with Yoda. He tried to best Yoda using the Force, and Yoda turned it away. Then they battled, and Dooku and Yoda were nearly even. As I said. I like Count Dooku. He is the consumate lightsaber duelist and suave gentlemen. Charm is his biggest weapon - like Sidious has his manipulation.
But no. If Sidious had nothing to offer Dooku, IF Dooku was so much more greater than Sidious as you say he is, Dooku would've taken the mantle from him long ago.
And yet he didn't.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Lol, I don't recall Dooku smiling in his duel with Yoda. He tried to best Yoda using the Force, and Yoda turned it away. Then they battled, and Dooku and Yoda were nearly even. As I said. I like Count Dooku. He is the consumate lightsaber duelist and suave gentlemen. Charm is his biggest weapon - like Sidious has his manipulation.But no. If Sidious had nothing to offer Dooku, IF Dooku was so much more greater than Sidious as you say he is, Dooku would've taken the mantle from him long ago.
And yet he didn't.
Like i said, Sidious probably manipulated Dooku to not want to take the Mantle or to kill him. You think Anakin wouldn't have killed Sidious after he obtained his power? Sidious manipulated them both to be his puppets.
Lordsorgo, I find that theories are credible. I do not dismiss them as easily as many of the others do. Theories are important and essential. I can't dismiss your theory. And at the same time, you have no proof to indicate yours is correct. For all intents and purposes, your point of view is speculation and nothing more.
Manipulating Anakin is nothing like manipulating Dooku. Anakin may be the Chosen One. Yes, he may have killed Dooku. But to say the two were on an equal level of intellect is insulting. Dooku was much more intelligent than Vader. And yes, I do agree. Sidious did indeed control and manipulate Count Dooku. But I fear that this isn't the only reason why Dooku served Sidious.
The most difficult of your claims I find truly...unbelievable - is the fact that you even insinuate that Dooku and Sidious were on par with one another in usage and mastery of The Force. There is only one person in the trilogies who can compete with Sidious in mastery of the Force. And that is Yoda. They are each paragons of the opposite sides. The masters of the Light and the Dark.
Dooku could POSSIBLY be the greater duelist. It would make sense. He has more experience than Sidious and has practiced combat much longer. I saw someone once say that "nothing beats experience."
That is normally true. But not always so. Anakin bested Count Dooku in battle (which, in terms of continuity, does NOT make sense - considering Obi-Wan and Anakin were supposedly equals and Obi-Wan was disposed of quite neatly) because of his raw power. Raw power does indeed count, and that is something that Dooku lacks in comparison to Sidious.
Sidious is the master. And quite so. My case is much more supported than yours, I'm afraid. Dooku can only compete with Sidious or Yoda in terms of lightsaber combat (he is GREAT there) - but I doubt he has an extent of control over the Force to match Sidious's.
Originally posted by LordSorgo
[B]. If Dooku was so much more powerful than Sidious, he would have struck him down.Sidious is manipulative bastard! He has ways to cloud people visions and change perception. If he managed to swing someone as powerful as Count Dooku under his wing, what makes you think he wont cloud him from taking his mantle of master?
As for the Dooku/Yoda fight, Dooku was doing just fine during the entire fight, if not better. As i recall, Yoda was making grunts and noises as Dooku smiled throughout their fight. Dooku fled because he obtained the Death Star plans.
Sidious probably would not fight Dooku with the Force, but with a Lightsaber. The battle would be long and hard, But Dooku would strike Sidious down in a Lightsaber fight! People heavily underestimate Dooku's Lightsaber skills. They are near complete perfection. Dooku's strikes are swift, on time and corusive. Sidious' form is more of a direct form based apon anger and appared swings to your opponent. When it comes to Lightsabers, folks....
Dooku would just flat out ruin Sidious' shit. Sidious is not this "unstoppable god" when it comes to Lightsabers. Hell, he isn't a god with anything else, although his manipulation is close.
because the BOOK says so.
The book also says that Kit Fisto is beheaded and his head is placed apon the desk. In the movie, his chest is slashed and there is no beheading. Get my drift?
One of the only reasons Anakin won the fight with Dooku was because of Anakin's physical strength. During the end of the fight, Dooku is about to lay it to Anakin when Anakin grabs Dooku's wrists and pushes his Lightsaber over them, cutting Dooku's hands off.
In my honest opinion, Sidious would fall to Dooku. [/B]
Good job. But as you said, Sids is a manipulative bastard. And if so, he won't choose the fighting style and type that Dooku favors; a duel. He'll try to run away while blasting the Count with Force abilities. Now Dooku is perhaps second only to Yoda and his Master in this department, but I think Sids would take him after a grueling battle. Maybe.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Lordsorgo, I find that theories are credible. I do not dismiss them as easily as many of the others do. Theories are important and essential. I can't dismiss your theory. And at the same time, you have no proof to indicate yours is correct. For all intents and purposes, your point of view is speculation and nothing more.Manipulating Anakin is nothing like manipulating Dooku. Anakin may be the Chosen One. Yes, he may have killed Dooku. But to say the two were on an equal level of intellect is insulting. Dooku was much more intelligent than Vader. And yes, I do agree. Sidious did indeed control and manipulate Count Dooku. But I fear that this isn't the only reason why Dooku served Sidious.
The most difficult of your claims I find truly...unbelievable - is the fact that you even insinuate that Dooku and Sidious were on par with one another in usage and mastery of The Force. There is only one person in the trilogies who can compete with Sidious in mastery of the Force. And that is Yoda. They are each paragons of the opposite sides. The masters of the Light and the Dark.
Dooku could POSSIBLY be the greater duelist. It would make sense. He has more experience than Sidious and has practiced combat much longer. I saw someone once say that "nothing beats experience."
That is normally true. But not always so. Anakin bested Count Dooku in battle (which, in terms of continuity, does NOT make sense - considering Obi-Wan and Anakin were supposedly equals and Obi-Wan was disposed of quite neatly) because of his raw power. Raw power does indeed count, and that is something that Dooku lacks in comparison to Sidious.
Sidious is the master. And quite so. My case is much more supported than yours, I'm afraid. Dooku can only compete with Sidious or Yoda in terms of lightsaber combat (he is GREAT there) - but I doubt he has an extent of control over the Force to match Sidious's.
I respect your opinion to a high level, but i must inlist mine.
As i said before, Yes, Sidious is a Mastermind and he is good, but he is not a god and he can be beaten. Dooku was an extremely underrated Sith Lord who was one to be Manipulated by Sidious. With Anakin's staggering Arrogance, he would have normally tried to kill Sidious with his "powers". As everyone always says "Sidious has the power to cloud perception and cloud minds". Sidious WAS indeed cowardly and he probably clouded Dooku and Anakin's vision from trying to kill Sidious. I am sure one of them would have tried.
Dooku and Sidious were on par with one another in usage and mastery of The Force. There is only one person in the trilogies who can compete with Sidious in mastery of the Force. And that is Yoda
Even so, Dooku would still be able to absorb Sidious' force powers, because he did with Yoda's when Yoda fired that absorbs lightning back at Dooku, and if Yoda and Sidious are "on par" this would mean that Dooku would be able to absorb Sidious' force.
Sidious isn't the type to sit there and throw Force powers around all day. He used his saber with four Jedi and Yoda, so he is gonna use it with Dooku, and because of Dooku's staggering knowledge of Lightsaber combat over Sidious, he would probably win the battle.
But to say the two were on an equal level of intellect is insulting. Dooku was much more intelligent than Vader.
I never said this. I was judging Sidious' manipulation powers, which are heavy.
If Dooku was older and more experienced, why wasn't he the master? Because of Sidious' manipulation.
But according to some select fans, Dooku did try to take over Sidious' mantle, but Sidious used Anakin on Grievous' ship to make sure this didn't happen. If Sidious wasn't willing to take out Dooku himself, this presents him as smart, but also alot more cowardly at the same time. Palpatine knew of Dooku's power, knowledge and Lightsaber skills and used an expendable pawn to dispose of Dooku.
Now, as I said, I agree that Dooku has nigh unparalleled power. But I doubt that it is superior par with Sidious. Here's how I judge them;
Dueling- I give this to Dooku. I'd go so far as to say that he is superior to anyone, his only rivals being Mace and Yoda, the former of which is questionable.
Force Mastery- Sidious, but its rather close, no question. The Count stood up to Yoda, who, if I may say so myself, is the most powerful being in the movies.
Raw Power- Same as above, although I think Dooku might have a chance here. I've read in a couple of sources that Dooku had vast potential, meaning that this is no doubt close as well.
Tactics- Depends. Dooku obviously showed excellent work when he fired, blocked, and reflected his own Lightning in his battle against Yoda. He also managed to throw a variety of environmental objects, and distracted Yoda well enough so that he could escape. Sidious displayed similar tactics against the same person, when he realized his disadvantage and sought higher ground for the win. This is open to debate.
And in numeral terms, from 1 to 10. Also, I added a vs. ?, a new characteristic.
Dueling Skill
Sidious- 8
Dooku- 10
Force Mastery
Sidious- 10
Dooku- 9
Raw Power
Sidious- 9
Dooku-8
Tactics
Sidious- 10
Dooku- 10
Against Single Opponent
Sidious- 8
Dooku- 10
Against Multiple Opponents
Sidious- 10
Dooku- 9
So this comes out to Sidious- 55 and Dooku- 56. I surprise myself by the outcome! As you can see, very close. I gave Sidious the vs. Multiple points because of how he dispatched the three Jedi, and took away from his vs. Single because of his struggles with Windu and Yoda. And I gave Dooku a 10 for Singles because he's won, or at leats not lost, every duel he was in save for the one against Obi-Wan and Anakin, in which he died. Hence the 9.