In Force Mastery he does for sure. Only barely, but still. I'd say Sidious equals Yoda in Force Mastery, but not Raw Power. And Dooku is at the top of the saber list because of his insurmountable saber skills. Sidious used his saber little, and was on the retreat, struggling, against the Jedi he used it on, Mace and Yoda.
Force Mastery:
----------------
Count Dooku: 09/10
Darth Sidious: 10/10
Force Connection:
--------------------
Count Dooku: 08/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10
Raw Force Power:
--------------------
Count Dooku: 07/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10
Force Knowledge:
--------------------
Count Dooku: 09/10
Darth Sidious: 10/10
Combat Ability:
-----------------
Count Dooku: 09/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10
Lightsaber Skills:
-------------------
Count Dooku: 10/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10 (Possibly a 10; You're all hard on Sidious here)
Combat Tactics:
------------------
Count Dooku: 09/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10
Combat Experience:
----------------------
Count Dooku: 10/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10 (Possibly an 8; He didn't fight as much)
From studies of Count Dooku, to me, he is similar to Darth Sidious in many ways. For example. His greatest and most deadly weapon is not his mastery of lightsaber combat or his skill with The Force. But rather, his charm, sophistication, eloquence, and subtle persuasion.
Darth Sidious is like this, as we know. He is by no means a weakling. Many have painted pictures of him as being a lower duelist, because of the lack of clear victory. This isn't the case. He held off Master Yoda, Mace Windu (which is a controversial and ambigious battle, at best) and slayed three Jedi Masters in three seconds. His greatest weapon is not his lightsaber - nor his even more devastating mastery of the Dark Side - but rather his manipulation. He can manipulate even the wisest and strongest of Jedi into serving him.
----
To my knowledge, Count Dooku's main - speciality - in combat is his skill with a lightsaber. We all know he's talented with The Force, but he is even greater with a lightsaber. Eight decades of combat experience combined with his particularly useful Form of dueling. He is a force of nature, to be sure.
But when comparing his mastery of The Force to that of Darth Sidious, you're entering a whole new world. I'm not saying he's much weaker than Sidious. But he IS weaker. He WAS the apprentice. People bank so much on Sidious's manipulative genius. Ironic, considering so many have argued against it when the time was right. Sidious had more knowledge of The Force, and his mastery was ONLY paralleled by Yoda. To me, no one else came close to these two Force Titans.
But in combat - lightsaber wise - Count Dooku is equal and possibly greater than his master. But when it comes down to The Force itself, he is not.
Indeed he did. But Count Dooku struck me as the type as the sort of opposite of Anakin. Anakin didn't have much mastery over The Force. In my eyes, he mastered it only when he became the mechanized Darth Vader. He won many of his battles due to his Force Connection and sheer Raw Power. Dooku always struck me as one more focused on experience than raw power.
Experience and Raw Power are about equal. Count Dooku was calm, sophisticated, and controlling in battle. That reflects that he fought long enough to know how to control and orchestrate his fights. He knew how to fight. It was second nature to him. Notice that he doesn't overpower Anakin or perform ridiculously acrobatic moves. He isn't as powerful as Anakin in terms of sheer power. We've seen Sidious perform flips like that, uncontrolled and utterly unpredictable moves because he has strong Force power.
Dooku is experienced. He outwitted Anakin. New his weaknesses. He wasn't really faster or stronger. He thought quicker and used tactics far superior to Anakin's own.
That is what I attribute to Count Dooku.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
From studies of Count Dooku, to me, he is similar to Darth Sidious in many ways. For example. His greatest and most deadly weapon is not his mastery of lightsaber combat or his skill with The Force. But rather, his charm, sophistication, eloquence, and subtle persuasion.Darth Sidious is like this, as we know. He is by no means a weakling. Many have painted pictures of him as being a lower duelist, because of the lack of clear victory. This isn't the case. He held off Master Yoda, Mace Windu (which is a controversial and ambigious battle, at best) and slayed three Jedi Masters in three seconds. His greatest weapon is not his lightsaber - nor his even more devastating mastery of the Dark Side - but rather his manipulation. He can manipulate even the wisest and strongest of Jedi into serving him.
----
To my knowledge, Count Dooku's main - speciality - in combat is his skill with a lightsaber. We all know he's talented with The Force, but he is even greater with a lightsaber. Eight decades of combat experience combined with his particularly useful Form of dueling. He is a force of nature, to be sure.
But when comparing his mastery of The Force to that of Darth Sidious, you're entering a whole new world. I'm not saying he's much weaker than Sidious. But he IS weaker. He WAS the apprentice. People bank so much on Sidious's manipulative genius. Ironic, considering so many have argued against it when the time was right. Sidious had more knowledge of The Force, and his mastery was ONLY paralleled by Yoda. To me, no one else came close to these two Force Titans.
But in combat - lightsaber wise - Count Dooku is equal and possibly greater than his master. But when it comes down to The Force itself, he is not.
I agree with everything here except for your statement that Yoda and Sidious are "Force Titians". The ancient, Sith Lords make Yoda and Sids look like children with toy lightsabers.
Again, you don't KNOW that. You have a quote from a video game from another Sith Lord. In that case, Revan himself would be obliterated and crushed beneath the heels of the Ancient Sith Lords. And yet I've seen you argue against it.
Ever hear of the saying "There are always exceptions to the rules?". Who's to say Yoda and Sidious aren't?
Well...people didn't seem to think that much before they post...
Force powers
I don't know if you ever noticed that but there are only three persons that can redirect or absorb force lightning with their hands in the movies: Sidious, Dooku and Yoda. Yoda can absorb it. Sidious can redirect it. Dooku can at least deflect it.
Sidious might be a more powerful force user compared to Dooku (but not "outclassing" him) but Dooku would be able to deflect Sidious force lightning. So it doesn't help Sidious much to be the better force user here.
Lightsaber skill
Here Dooku obviously outclasses Sidious.
If you don't believe me: Dooku defeated Mace Windu in TPM times. We can assume that Mace can be slightly better than Dooku in ROTS times. Still Mace disarmed Sidious after what time ? 30 seconds ?
And Dooku was able to attack Yoda in AotC were Sidious in ROTS was totaly pushed into defence. Dooku uses the best lightsaber form for a duel were Sidious relies on not completed forms (form VI or VII).
Experience
Dooku is 18 years older than Sidious so he was already a force practitioner when Sidious wasn't even born. He had much more practice in lightsaber use than Sidious (including sparing with Mace and real fights with Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin).
Conclusion
Dooku is obviously the superior lightsaber duelist and he can nullify Sidious advantage in force powers. So he would win if there ever would be a fight between them.
"But Dooku was the apprentice !"
So what ? Did anybody here take a look at Dookus motivation ? Dooku was a political idealist. He wanted to end corruption in the Senate and he thought Sidious could be the one to end it. He although was an aristocrate so I think he hadn't much love for democracy.
He couldn't do what Sidious did because he didn't had the time to gain as much political influence as Sidious already had.
So if Dooku ever planed to kill Sidious he would have done that after the events in RotS. And yes...Dooku was manipulated by Sidious but that won't count in a duel between them.
Ok, IMO Sidious would have this match.
1. He's the master and the master must always be stronger. He's even younger. (I know that doesn't mean much but it's a little funny.)
2. He has a much better control of the Force. For example: Dooku in AOTC used lightning against Obi-Wan. Obi blocked it with his lightsaber pathetically one-handed almost bored like. When Sidious used lightning against Mace (Who's stronger than ROTS Obi who's much stronger than AOTC Obi) Mace was having a really hard time holding it back. Sidious' Lightning was nearly too much for Yoda yet in AOTC, Yoda casually one handed reflected Dooku's lightning with much less difficulty.
3. He's a better duelist. Sidious was holding his own against Yoda in lightsaber combat, and fought really well, perhaps even on par with Yoda. Dooku on the other hand, had no chance and fled like a coward. Dooku didn't do too bad, but Yoda was not struggling against Dooku like he was against Sidious.
Sidious is really powerful and Dooku could probably survive for 30 seconds or so but then he would be toast.
I love this system even if it has its flaws. It's based on ten being good, 1 being bad.
Dueling Skill:
Dooku- 10 He stood up to Yoda and has beaten Mace before.
Sidious- 9 Was relying on his force powers to survive the fight with Yoda
Force Mastery:
Dooku- 9 Very capable in the force. Was able to contend with Yoda for a while in force powers. Overpowerd ROTS Obi-wan in force power.
Sidious- 10 The strongest force powers in the movie probably. He constantly falls back to his supeior force powers when his saber skills begin to fail him.
Raw Power:
Dooku- 9 No Anakin Skywalker, but very powerful.
Sidious- 9 Same as Dooku.
Tactics:
Dooku- 9 Led the war against the Republic for a while(had help from Grevious)
Sidious- 10 Great tactician in the PT(not so good in OT). Manipulated everyone.
Against Single Opponent:
Dooku- 10 He kicks butt against a single opponent. Period.
Sidious- 9 Not as good as Dooku un this area. Still good at it though.
Against Multiple Opponents:
Dooku- 9 Very capable. Defeated Anakin. Lost the second time because he was betrayed.
Sidious- 10 He defeated 3 very powerful Masters extremly quickly. Good at it.
Overall(pre-corrections):
Dooku- 56
Sidious- 57
Because this system isn't perfect, I need to make some slight corrections to make it as accurate as possible.
The reason that Sidious killed those three Masters so wuickly is because he was clouding thier minds with the force. Dooku draws his power from the darkside so he would not have the same clouding effect.
Against Multiple Opponents: -2 for Sidious
Overall(corrected):
Dooku- 56
Sidious- 55
Dooku wins.
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Ok, IMO Sidious would have this match.1. He's the master and the master must always be stronger. He's even younger. (I know that doesn't mean much but it's a little funny.)
2. He has a much better control of the Force. For example: Dooku in AOTC used lightning against Obi-Wan. Obi blocked it with his lightsaber pathetically one-handed almost bored like. When Sidious used lightning against Mace (Who's stronger than ROTS Obi who's much stronger than AOTC Obi) Mace was having a really hard time holding it back. Sidious' Lightning was nearly too much for Yoda yet in AOTC, Yoda casually one handed reflected Dooku's lightning with much less difficulty.
3. He's a better duelist. Sidious was holding his own against Yoda in lightsaber combat, and fought really well, perhaps even on par with Yoda. Dooku on the other hand, had no chance and fled like a coward. Dooku didn't do too bad, but Yoda was not struggling against Dooku like he was against Sidious.
Sidious is really powerful and Dooku could probably survive for 30 seconds or so but then he would be toast.
Dooku on the other hand, had no chance and fled like a coward. Dooku didn't do too bad, but Yoda was not struggling against Dooku like he was against Sidious.
That is pathetic! Dooku fled like a coward? He had the plans to the Death Star! And him and Yoda were doing almost the exact same in Lightsaber combat.
The only reason Yoda struggled with Sidious is because of Sidious' raw force power. He threw a bolt of lightning that knocked him down for a considerate amount of time, and he spent a large amount of the battle chucking large metal disc-like patio seats at him. Yoda was getting tired because of his old age. The lightsaber battle with Dooku would have been less tiring with Yoda because Dooku used more saber than force, except for the beginning of the match. Yoda even admits to Dooku that he had gotten exceptionally strong. He says nothing like that to Sidious.
He's even younger.
You say that like it is a good thing. Age grants Dooku extra Experience.
If Sidious' Lightning is so powerful, how come it took him such a long time to kill Luke with it?
Wait, thats right, he never DID kill Luke with it, now did he? He fried Luke for the longest time and Luke didn't even have visible scars. Hell, he was up and running a few minutes later.
Dooku defeated one of the greatest Jedi Masters around TWICE, he chopped the chosen ones hand off and he faired the same to Yoda.
Sidious DID kill three Jedi Masters under suprise, he had significant trouble with the fourth who almost killed him if not for Anakin walking into the room and he made Yoda flee but he couldn't kill him. Not to mention, Dooku HAS beaten Mace before.
Dooku would turn Sidious into Sith Fried Sushi. Although Sidious tops Dooku in force, Sidious has exceptional Lightsaber skill.
Sidious would do significant damage to Dooku, but Dooku would walk out on top.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I love this system even if it has its flaws. It's based on ten being good, 1 being bad.Dueling Skill:
Dooku- 10 He stood up to Yoda and has beaten Mace before.
Sidious- 9 Was relying on his force powers to survive the fight with Yoda
Force Mastery:
Dooku- 9 Very capable in the force. Was able to contend with Yoda for a while in force powers. Overpowerd ROTS Obi-wan in force power.
Sidious- 10 The strongest force powers in the movie probably. He constantly falls back to his supeior force powers when his saber skills begin to fail him.
Raw Power:
Dooku- 9 No Anakin Skywalker, but very powerful.
Sidious- 9 Same as Dooku.
Tactics:
Dooku- 9 Led the war against the Republic for a while(had help from Grevious)
Sidious- 10 Great tactician in the PT(not so good in OT). Manipulated everyone.
Against Single Opponent:
Dooku- 10 He kicks butt against a single opponent. Period.
Sidious- 9 Not as good as Dooku un this area. Still good at it though.
Against Multiple Opponents:
Dooku- 9 Very capable. Defeated Anakin. Lost the second time because he was betrayed.
Sidious- 10 He defeated 3 very powerful Masters extremly quickly. Good at it.
Overall(pre-corrections):
Dooku- 56
Sidious- 57
Because this system isn't perfect, I need to make some slight corrections to make it as accurate as possible.
The reason that Sidious killed those three Masters so wuickly is because he was clouding thier minds with the force. Dooku draws his power from the darkside so he would not have the same clouding effect.
Against Multiple Opponents: -2 for Sidious
Overall(corrected):
Dooku- 56
Sidious- 55
Dooku wins.
Im sorry to say but that is complete bs.
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Ok, IMO Sidious would have this match.1. He's the master and the master must always be stronger. He's even younger. (I know that doesn't mean much but it's a little funny.)
2. He has a much better control of the Force. For example: Dooku in AOTC used lightning against Obi-Wan. Obi blocked it with his lightsaber pathetically one-handed almost bored like. When Sidious used lightning against Mace (Who's stronger than ROTS Obi who's much stronger than AOTC Obi) Mace was having a really hard time holding it back. Sidious' Lightning was nearly too much for Yoda yet in AOTC, Yoda casually one handed reflected Dooku's lightning with much less difficulty.
3. He's a better duelist. Sidious was holding his own against Yoda in lightsaber combat, and fought really well, perhaps even on par with Yoda. Dooku on the other hand, had no chance and fled like a coward. Dooku didn't do too bad, but Yoda was not struggling against Dooku like he was against Sidious.
Sidious is really powerful and Dooku could probably survive for 30 seconds or so but then he would be toast.
1) Not neccessarily. That's somewhat silly from you Revan; I'd expect better. The Master may have things to teach the Apprentice, but in Dooku's case, he was just a pawn. And I agree with Sorgo. Dooku's 83 years grant him nearly two decades more practice and training than Sidious.
2) True; but did you look at the expression on Dooku's face when he blasted Anakin and fired at Obi-Wan? He just threw his hand up and blasted away. But then, you see him concentrating more on Yoda, and look what happens. He blasts the ceiling to pieces with deflected lightning. And Yoda wasn't casual; he was trying. And Sidious' lightning may be powerful, but Dooku barely needed to struggle to reflect twice deflected lightning of his own. And Sidious fired at Mace from point blank range, a couple of feet away.
3) Dooku is a better duelist than Sidious. But how did Dooku flee like a coward? He knew he might die, but moreso, he carried the plans for the Death Star. It would be a HUGE loss to the Separatist cause if these were destroyed or lost. And did you see Dooku run away to higher ground? Escape a duel? Dooku outright challenged Yoda, in both a Force-battle And a duel. He STARTED the duel. Sidious tried to run away before it'd begun. Who's the bigger coward? And you're right, Yoda wasn't struggling as much. But he wasn't gaining any ground, either. He attacked and attacked, and Dooku just took it head on, taking some steps away to position himself well. Not to mention Dooku was right in front of Yoda the entire duel, not a couple of hundred feet away chucking half a dozen speeder-size pods at him while he ran towards him.
Originally posted by Darth Windu
1) Not neccessarily. That's somewhat silly from you Revan; I'd expect better. The Master may have things to teach the Apprentice, but in Dooku's case, he was just a pawn. And I agree with Sorgo. Dooku's 83 years grant him nearly two decades more practice and training than Sidious.2) True; but did you look at the expression on Dooku's face when he blasted Anakin and fired at Obi-Wan? He just threw his hand up and blasted away. But then, you see him concentrating more on Yoda, and look what happens. He blasts the ceiling to pieces with deflected lightning. And Yoda wasn't casual; he was trying. And Sidious' lightning may be powerful, but Dooku barely needed to struggle to reflect twice deflected lightning of his own. And Sidious fired at Mace from point blank range, a couple of feet away.
3) Dooku is a better duelist than Sidious. But how did Dooku flee like a coward? He knew he might die, but moreso, he carried the plans for the Death Star. It would be a HUGE loss to the Separatist cause if these were destroyed or lost. And did you see Dooku run away to higher ground? Escape a duel? Dooku outright challenged Yoda, in both a Force-battle And a duel. He STARTED the duel. Sidious tried to run away before it'd begun. Who's the bigger coward? And you're right, Yoda wasn't struggling as much. But he wasn't gaining any ground, either. He attacked and attacked, and Dooku just took it head on, taking some steps away to position himself well. Not to mention Dooku was right in front of Yoda the entire duel, not a couple of hundred feet away chucking half a dozen speeder-size pods at him while he ran towards him.
Nicely done.