ragnos vs. reven

Started by Darth_Frobo15 pages

Congratulations you just took a bunch of things I never said and then tried to pretend I said them in your last two paragraphs so I won't waste my time with that trash.

Revan never did anything as impressive as ruling the sith empire for a century eh well know lets see here,

-He destroyed the biggest organized crime chain and two swoop gangs WITHOUT the force

-He single handedly won two wars in which almost anyone else would be doomed to failure.

-he conquered the mandalorians, the sith and the republic easily.

-he killed thousands of jedi and sith including the most powerful sith in the galaxy who was drawing on the star forge for power and used it to save his life up to 9 times

-he defeated everyone he ever fought with ease

-he had enough force power to instakill the three most powerful jedi masters of his time with one raise of his hand. (kreia did it and Revan>kreia in every way)

I have others if you want.

you put a bunch of bullcrap in there.

"He beat everyone he fought with ease" my fat ass. That is completly not true.

"he had enough force power to instakill the three most powerful jedi masters of his time with one raise of his hand. (kreia did it and Revan>kreia in every way)"

that is a load of SH!T. He is not better than Kreia in everyway. If they were wine, Kreia would be better. Are you really that desperate.

Those examples show people in postitions of power postitions that others desperatley want which is exactly the case with Ragnos.

And guess what? They don't work. Because they aren't filled with twisted dark-siders who kill for power. That alone doesn't fit. That's like saying how come the most powerful members of the Jedi Order aren't always on the council. Because the ideology is different!

Do we know Simus is powerful? I'm not saying he's not but name one person he killed. Name one offensive power he had. do you even know what he looked like? Before you hail him as a God except for keeping his head alive in a jar (which I've seen nothing about) what's he done?

It was said EXPLICITLY that he was the most powerful of his time. There's no doubt, it wasn't speech, it was narration. I don't know about you, but if someone is told as the most powerful of his time by the storywriter, I'll believe it.

do you know if he fought his way to the top or assasinated his superiors in their sleep a la sidious? How impressive was Simus the truth is we don't know you guys are basically saying,"because we don't know he must be really really strong because of that one thing he did that way it supports our arguement" then get mad at me when I bring up the possibility that for all we know he could have sucked. hypocrites.

You're not bringing up the possibility, you are downplaying the facts. There's a difference.

Ragnos either went unchallenged or didn't make up your bloody minds, if he didn't then it's not to hard to sustain such a postition.

Do you know what unchallenged is? He never had a serious attack on his throne, that doesn't mean they didn't try, or that he didn't fight them off. It doesn't mean he was unquestioned; It never says he was uninvolved, it just says he wasn't challenged to the throne.

I go re-read my bloody post about the assumptions all I say is that we don't know, when you assume that he's powerful it's fine but when I assume the contrary you've got a problem with it please stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth like this, all you have are assumptions and guesses the only facts you have go as follows:

You're speculating, we're deducing.

Here's an example, since you seem a little slow:

All dogs are furry
Bob is a dog.

Therefore, Bob is furry. This is called a syllogism. This isn't speculation, it's not like saying "Bob must be fast", which is speculation because the facts don't support it. The facts support Ragnos being powerful, not like the halfass speculation you toss around.

Ragnos was a sith who killed simus and ruled other powerful sith. what do we know about simus, nothing so don't assume he's that great if you don't know just like I won't assume he's garbage until I see some proof. he ruled other powerful sith did he deserve that rule, once again nobody knows so lets not make assumptions. That leaves us with thats right...NOTHING. so we'll take this nothing and now compare it to pages full of reasons supporting Revan.

So beating someone known as the most powerful of his time is nothing?

Ruling over an empire for over a century where the ideology is the strong shall rule, and Sith Lords regularly compete for the position of Dark Lord is nothing? Where Ragnos had Sadow and Kressh, two extremely powerful Sith Lords in their own right under his foot is nothing?

ragnos was a sith lord😖o were hundreds of others
Ragnos killed a sith magician:do you know how many people have killed sith even powerful ones it's an insanely long list.
Ragnos ruled powerful sith;good for him that doesn't mean he was one

LMFAO. Way to weight facts. Here are the real ones.

Ragnos was the Sith Lord with the most illustrious rule: there was only 1 of those: Ragnos.

Ragnos killed Simus who was considered the most powerful of his time: Not to many people were able to do that, now were they?

Ragnos ruled for a century, longer than any other Sith we know of, over the high period of the Sith Empire, he had two powerful Sith Lords under his foot who never were able to depose of him: NOT true for other Sith Lords.

Everything about Ragnos tells about his singularity.

And then we have Kreia saying explicitly that Ragnos had immense physical strength and a frightening grasp on the force. Oh wait, that doesn't count either for you, right?

Revan had the highest level of battle pre-cog out of anybody ever which means no one exceeded his level of pre-cog.

He attained a very high level of precog, but to say no one has ever, or will ever exceed him is being a fanboy.

Revan learned multiple PLANETS worth of info on the sith more then anyone ever.

More than those people who spend their entire lives surrounded by individuals that owned those artifacts? More than people like Nadd and Kun who plundered the tombs BEFORE Revan and probably took all the goodies they could get their hands on? Please.

Revan is deemed to be THE GREATEST strategist ever right up there with thrawn.

And Ragnos is deemed the most feared, but apparently for you, that's not good enough. So why should this be? And why would this matter in a straight up saber duel? Revan would still die.

Revan resisted Malachor v's tempation without completely cutting himself off from the force he was the only one to do so.

The Sith Empire made no attempt to do this. The Sith believe in passion, they follow that ideology because it makes them powerful, and they LIKE/WANT/CRAVE power. Hence why you see the Sith attacking Dark Lords and higher ups, because they want power. You see practically every Dark Lord of the Sith being backstabbed and betrayed except one: care to take a guess as to who?

there's many more but i'm anxious to see what you wrote when i wrote this.

You better bring those out, because the ones you gave are crappy speculatory assumptions.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Ragnos arguments:
- growing up in an enviroment it which civil wars and duel were common and it's everyone vs everyone with the strongest on top
- defeated the greatest Sith magician and sword fighter at the peak of the Sith Empire
- reign over [b]hundrets
of planets filled with force users for more than a century
- making people like Sadow, Kressh, Kun and Ulic listen to his spirit
[/B]

- If civil wars and duels were so common, how come we've only heard of two. Ragnos vs. Simus and Sadow vs. Kressh, neither of which resulted in a death. That doesn't happen in EVERY OTHER time with Sith, hmm, that's odd. Back it up with evidence and I might believe it. The strongest rule huh? Then how did Sadow simply manipulate his way into becoming the dark lord without necessarily being the strongest? Why did Ragnos manipulate his opponents into fighting each other?

- who says he's the greatest sith magician and sword fighter? More things Ragnos lovers have made up. Revan's time has also been called the golden age of sith and jedi as well.

- Hundreds of planets eh? Again, more assumptions. Prove it. I've only heard of a few. Next, the Sith empire has less numbers then the Republic had, how is that possible with hundreds of planets when considering star wars map POSTERS barely list a hundred?

- More garbage Ragnos supporters pretend is true. I've already said this, Sadow sure didn't bother to listen to his spirit, neither did Kressh, and he simply named Kun and Ulic Sith lords. How were they even supposed to "not listen to him"? He didn't even give them orders, but he did give a false prediction.

Glentract: I was wondering who Revan didn't defeat with ease? I can't think of anyone.

And Illustrious is saying we can't say anything to go against Ragnos, I believe the contrary but anyway, what arguments can you guys think up against Revan? He's awesome at about every way you can think of that might be powerful. Good luck.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Those examples show people in postitions of power postitions that others desperatley want which is exactly the case with Ragnos.

Yes. But your examples don't show people in positions of power with the rule that anyone who will kill those people will get their position. Got it ?
For the gun club: The most accurate way to compare this to the Sith Empire would be a gun club making a shooting contest and the guy that wins will be the president until another one will beat him in a shooting contest.


Do we know Simus is powerful? I'm not saying he's not but name one person he killed. Name one offensive power he had. do you even know what he looked like? Before you hail him as a God except for keeping his head alive in a jar (which I've seen nothing about) what's he done? do you know if he fought his way to the top or assasinated his superiors in their sleep a la sidious? How impressive was Simus the truth is we don't know you guys are basically saying,"because we don't know he must be really really strong because of that one thing he did that way it supports our arguement" then get mad at me when I bring up the possibility that for all we know he could have sucked. hypocrites.

Simus was the master of Sadow and if Sadow would have been powerful enough to take him he would've done that. Sith rule. As we can see that Sadow didn't try to kill Simus we have to say that Simus was more powerful than Sadow.
Now we know how powerful Sadow was and what he could do. So somebody that can take Simus in a straight fight (Ragnos) must be logically more powerful than Sadow.

For the followers we can only judge about them by their knowledge because they never confronted the "living" Sith Lord that was before him. We know that Nadd never finished his training under Sadow so for knowledge Sadow > Nadd. And Nadd was quite great if you see the things he did.
Yet Exar Kun didn't finish his training under Nadd and again it would be Nadd > Exar when it comes to knowledge (Sith knowledge).

They all had access to Sith artifacts, they all visited at least Korriban to learn more and gather artifacts and still their "knowledge" declined. Now...if it's Ragnos > Simus > Sadow > Nadd > Kun (and for all we know that's exactly the way it is) it's pretty save to tell that Ragnos is > Kun and since many people here believe that Kun could defeat Revan it's safe to say Ragnos > Revan.


Ragnos either went unchallenged or didn't make up your bloody minds, if he didn't then it's not to hard to sustain such a postition.

If he wasn't challenged than it's quite impressive because the Sith would challenge everybody they think they can take (that's a fact)
If he was challenged than he defeated anybody that tried to take his place (equaly impressive since that means he defeated the most powerful people at the peak of the Sith Empire).
You can twist that as you like still the fact remains that Ragnos was the most powerful individual in the most powerful era of the most powerful Sith.


Ragnos was a sith who killed simus and ruled other powerful sith. what do we know about simus, nothing so don't assume he's that great if you don't know just like I won't assume he's garbage until I see some proof. he ruled other powerful sith did he deserve that rule, once again nobody knows so lets not make assumptions. That leaves us with thats right...NOTHING. so we'll take this nothing and now compare it to pages full of reasons supporting Revan.

Now...what proof for the power of the people Revan fought you have. None. Why ? Because you only can judge his power compared to other peoples power he had fought. Now I can see that anyone Revan fought was a weak nobody and that makes Revan a weak nobody. Great deal.


Revan had the highest level of battle pre-cog out of anybody ever which means no one exceeded his level of pre-cog.

Great. What does battle pre-cog do ? Nothing. Oh...you can fight better than the average dude holding a sword in hand. Great I can do that too. So me = Revan.


Revan learned multiple PLANETS worth of info on the sith more then anyone ever.

Give me a number of books, holocrons or other stuff that was stored on that planet. You can't. Actually you don't even know what kind of knowledge was stored there but you assume that it is more than anyone else had access to. And by the way: The ancient Sith who stored that knowledge there obviously had access to it and pretty much more time to learn it compared to Revan.


Revan is deemed to be THE GREATEST strategist ever right up there with thrawn.

Now. You better give some proof for that point. At least name one other brilliant strategist Revan had to deal with. Or give me some exceptional brilliant tactical movement no other person would think of that Revan used.


Revan resisted Malachor v's tempation without completely cutting himself off from the force he was the only one to do so.

So all other people there were weaklings. That's the way you argue on the Sith Empire. Ragnos reigned it so all other person there must be weak despite the fact at least one of them could blow up planets through the force.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Glentract: I was wondering who Revan didn't defeat with ease? I can't think of anyone.

Malak probably. Bendak Starkiller. Bandon. Pretty much everyboss-type-figure in KOTOR. If you had difficulty or not doesn't matter because like it has been said, we can't by game play. You can't realistically say that he had no problem fighting those people. If you don't like my lack of evidence, then I should let you know that I don't enjoy your lack either.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl

Simus was the master of Sadow and if Sadow would have been powerful enough to take him he would've done that. Sith rule. As we can see that Sadow didn't try to kill Simus we have to say that Simus was more powerful than Sadow.
Now we know how powerful Sadow was and what he could do. So somebody that can take Simus in a straight fight (Ragnos) must be logically more powerful than Sadow.

More useless garbage Ragnos lovers have made up. Simus was a head in a jar and Sadow killed him who is said to be his "old rival"

Sorry Nai, but Sadow did kill Simus. Emp. Rev. is right in this case. Overall though, in this thread, he is wrong.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorry Nai, but Sadow did kill Simus. Emp. Rev. is right in this case. Overall though, in this thread, he is wrong.

He killed the head in a jar version. He either didn't make an attempt, or didn't succeed in beating the alive, badass Sith Magician version of Simus, indicating he's not as powerful as Simus was.

Sadow wasn't around a hundred years before the time he fought the Republic, of course he couldn't have tried to destroy Simus.

That's more wild speculation you guys have been desperately making.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
- If civil wars and duels were so common, how come we've only heard of two. Ragnos vs. Simus and Sadow vs. Kressh, neither of which resulted in a death. That doesn't happen in EVERY OTHER time with Sith, hmm, that's odd. Back it up with evidence and I might believe it. The strongest rule huh? Then how did Sadow simply manipulate his way into becoming the dark lord without necessarily being the strongest? Why did Ragnos manipulate his opponents into fighting each other?

a) Ragnos vs. Simus resulted with Simus head lying on the ground. Without Sith magic that would be a death person.

b) Ragnos declared Sadow to be the dark lord and ended that battle between Sadow and Kressh. Sadow didn't even have to manipulate somebody to become dark lord.


- who says he's the greatest sith magician and sword fighter? More things Ragnos lovers have made up. Revan's time has also been called the golden age of sith and jedi as well.

Simus was the greatest Sith magician of his time. That's a fact.
He was leader of the Sith priesthood, more powerful than Sadow (another fact) and at least he doesn't have to be the best duelist at that time but he has to be good enough to compete with his rivals for the title of a Dark Lord so basically he is > anybody but Ragnos.


- Hundreds of planets eh? Again, more assumptions. Prove it. I've only heard of a few. Next, the Sith empire has less numbers then the Republic had, how is that possible with hundreds of planets when considering star wars map POSTERS barely list a hundred?

Name all planets Revan conquered. If you can't do it they were none. What kind of stupid logic is that ? And yes the Sith Empire had less planets then the Republic. Take a look at the Senate in the PT and count the pods filled with Senators maybe you can tell me how many planets there were in the republic.

Not to say that "thousands of planets joined the CIS" according to AotC what would be pretty much impossible when there are only hundrets in the Republic.


- More garbage Ragnos supporters pretend is true. I've already said this, Sadow sure didn't bother to listen to his spirit, neither did Kressh, and he simply named Kun and Ulic Sith lords. How were they even supposed to "not listen to him"? He didn't even give them orders, but he did give a false prediction.

He named Kun the Dark Lord and Ulic his apprentice in the middle of a duel any of them could have won. Would you have protested ? Yes. And Ragnos declared Sadow the dark lord. Damn it. So at least Kressh could have something against it - still he had not.

Ah...false prediction ? Because Kun was betrayed ? Great.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorry Nai, but Sadow did kill Simus. Emp. Rev. is right in this case. Overall though, in this thread, he is wrong.

Sadow killed a goddamn head in a jar.
Ragnos fought Simus at the peak of his power and beheaded him. Damn it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And guess what? They don't work. Because they aren't filled with twisted dark-siders who kill for power. That alone doesn't fit. That's like saying how come the most powerful members of the Jedi Order aren't always on the council. Because the ideology is different!

It was said EXPLICITLY that he was the most powerful of his time. There's no doubt, it wasn't speech, it was narration. I don't know about you, but if someone is told as the most powerful of his time by the storywriter, I'll believe it.

You're not bringing up the possibility, you are downplaying the facts. There's a difference.

Do you know what unchallenged is? He never had a serious attack on his throne, that doesn't mean they didn't try, or that he didn't fight them off. It doesn't mean he was unquestioned; It never says he was uninvolved, it just says he wasn't challenged to the throne.

You're speculating, we're deducing.

Here's an example, since you seem a little slow:

All dogs are furry
Bob is a dog.

Therefore, Bob is furry. This is called a syllogism. This isn't speculation, it's not like saying "Bob must be fast", which is speculation because the facts don't support it. The facts support Ragnos being powerful, not like the halfass speculation you toss around.

So beating someone known as the most powerful of his time is nothing?

Ruling over an empire for over a century where the ideology is the strong shall rule, and Sith Lords regularly compete for the position of Dark Lord is nothing? Where Ragnos had Sadow and Kressh, two extremely powerful Sith Lords in their own right under his foot is nothing?

LMFAO. Way to weight facts. Here are the real ones.

Ragnos was the Sith Lord with the most illustrious rule: there was only 1 of those: Ragnos.

Ragnos killed Simus who was considered the most powerful of his time: Not to many people were able to do that, now were they?

Ragnos ruled for a century, longer than any other Sith we know of, over the high period of the Sith Empire, he had two powerful Sith Lords under his foot who never were able to depose of him: NOT true for other Sith Lords.

Everything about Ragnos tells about his singularity.

And then we have Kreia saying explicitly that Ragnos had immense physical strength and a frightening grasp on the force. Oh wait, that doesn't count either for you, right?

He attained a very high level of precog, but to say no one has ever, or will ever exceed him is being a fanboy.

More than those people who spend their entire lives surrounded by individuals that owned those artifacts? More than people like Nadd and Kun who plundered the tombs BEFORE Revan and probably took all the goodies they could get their hands on? Please.

And Ragnos is deemed the most feared, but apparently for you, that's not good enough. So why should this be? And why would this matter in a straight up saber duel? Revan would still die.

The Sith Empire made no attempt to do this. The Sith believe in passion, they follow that ideology because it makes them powerful, and they LIKE/WANT/CRAVE power. Hence why you see the Sith attacking Dark Lords and higher ups, because they want power. You see practically every Dark Lord of the Sith being backstabbed and betrayed except one: care to take a guess as to who?

You better bring those out, because the ones you gave are crappy speculatory assumptions.

The examples are filled with people who want those positions and are willing to lie and manipulate to get those positions.

Show me where it says simus was the most powerful then tell me what he could do other then get himself decapitated and keep his head alive in a jar.

What facts the "facts" you have are when ragnos ruled and that he killed one person who could possibly be powerful, if your source for the simus info is wikipedia then please go hang yourself now.

Do YOU know what unchallenged is? it's no one has challenged him for his rule.end of story.

You're deducing...right.

Powerful people feared ragnos
That must make him powerful

Is not a deduction it's a guess, you have nothing to support Ragnos there you've never mentioned one ability we know for a fact that he has you've never used anything to support ragnos being powerful other then some people were afraid of him and you've given no evidence to show that fear was justified don't waste my time.

The two powerful sith under his foot never tried to depose of him didn't mean they couldn't.

So he ruled so did Revan who was backstabbed, survived came back and beat the living tar out of malak. Ragnos was never challenged so he never showed any battle skill except for the fight against simus.

Revans level of pre-cog was the highest don't try to pin me as a fanboy because you can't except the facts.

Artifacts and knowledge are two different things and neither kun nor nad had any interest in things that would give them knowledge they wanted things that would give them power and unless you can tell me of another force user who learned multiple planets worth of info please tell me.

First of all so ragnos was the most feared being feared is not a skill or an ability and second as you know nothing about ragnos's swordsmanship outside of that one fight he won let me tell you a bit about Revans, Revan studied from every form becoming extrordinarily advanced in his knowledge of all of them, he learned everything possible from Tulak hords holocron tulak being the greatest sith swordsman ever. Revan was also inanely fast and strong more so when relying on the force and had battle pre-cog to the point where he could predict his opponents moves well before his opponent even thought of them.

You are a hypocrite. when you guess someone was powerful or could do something from half ass facts it's fine and it's a "deduction" but when I think that someone might not have been that great using the same half ass facts suddenly I'm dumb and assuming things.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a) Ragnos vs. Simus resulted with Simus head lying on the ground. Without Sith magic that would be a death person.

b) Ragnos [b]declared Sadow to be the dark lord and ended that battle between Sadow and Kressh. Sadow didn't even have to manipulate somebody to become dark lord.

Simus was the greatest Sith magician of his time. That's a fact.
He was leader of the Sith priesthood, more powerful than Sadow (another fact) and at least he doesn't have to be the best duelist at that time but he has to be good enough to compete with his rivals for the title of a Dark Lord so basically he is > anybody but Ragnos.

Name all planets Revan conquered. If you can't do it they were none. What kind of stupid logic is that ? And yes the Sith Empire had less planets then the Republic. Take a look at the Senate in the PT and count the pods filled with Senators maybe you can tell me how many planets there were in the republic.

Not to say that "thousands of planets joined the CIS" according to AotC what would be pretty much impossible when there are only hundrets in the Republic.

He named Kun the Dark Lord and Ulic his apprentice in the middle of a duel any of them could have won. Would you have protested ? Yes. And Ragnos declared Sadow the dark lord. Damn it. So at least Kressh could have something against it - still he had not.

Ah...false prediction ? Because Kun was betrayed ? Great. [/B]

a) True.

b) No, that's more useless garbage Ragnos lovers desperately make up to try and keep Ragnos as the "strongest". Ragnos' spirit merely said to choose their future actions wildy. Later the other sith lords named Sadow the dark lord. Read the new essential guide to characters and/or the star wars timeline, and I would appreciate you not making up more of this stuff, I'm getting tired of smacking it all down.

Really? How is fact that Simus was the greatest? If you can prove it, I'll believe it. I could say Revan is the most powerful Sith lord of all time and at the very least, Wikipedia agrees with me. But Simus? That's just what you guys hope.

Ah, point taken. That was pretty dumb of me. Even still, I would also like to know where you got this info on 'hundreds of planets'.

So Ulic was named apprentice and didn't question it. You think it was out of fear of Ragnos? Yeah right. Working together with Kun benefited them both. And again, Ragnos did NOT declare Sadow a sith lord.

He was still wrong. Even Palpatine is nearly always right, for instance: "I sense Lord Vader is in danger." and so many others.

Where does not making attempt to kill someone make you weaker? There are many other logical reasons you refuse to consider.

Very true Frobo. Millions of beings never challenged the dark lords after Bane, even though they didn't know about them, these guys think they're undoubtedly weaker.

Sadow did know about Ragnos though. Even the hermit in KOTOR says that if you have the chance, kill you leader in public and take his position.

My personal favourite is the "deduction" Ragnos ruled over sadow that must make him stronger, Tony blair rules over the SAS don't you think they could take him if they wanted to?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sadow did know about Ragnos though. Even the hermit in KOTOR says that if you have the chance, kill you leader in public and take his position.

it's stab your leader in the back betraying someone like malak did to Revan was more the idea.

Tony has a gun though. He could take'em.