Wolverine vs. Conan

dude wolverine is wolverine is wolverine. he is one of the few charcters in the ENTIRE ultimate universe who's powers and story never got changed, him and captain america so i dont know where you're coming from with that 616 bullshit...oh i get it only when it suits your needs... im not talking about beind simply run thru or stabbed im talkng about being whacked the shit out of with a huge sword or axe(two of conan's most prominent choices), each blow taking out chunks of flesh each time. i dont give a damn who he is he's gonna feel it. i previously mentioned punshier bazooka-ing him in the loweer exremities and blew out all his organs, he was out for the rest of the day. frank even went as far as parking a steam roller on top of him, and left him stranded. now, can frank actually kill him...no, but is that a win for him?...you damn right. like i said if its a fight to the death you're looking for of course wolverine is gonna win, but conan would lay into his ass real seriously enuff to get a victory. you see the thing with wolverine fanboys is that when they see that he can lose a fight they say" oh no, we're talking about killing, not who can get a three count, if its killing wolvie will win." i admit that perhaps i gave him less credit for his pain tolerance, but conan can knock him out nontheless, and dont say he cant be knocked eother cuz he has been on a few occasions

also jinzin is it me or is that last scan of wolvie fighting hulk was when he was masquerading as death as one of apocalypse horseman in that blue armor and yellow eyes. if it indeed is, dont you think that sucks for the purposes of this debate man...

Originally posted by manjaro
that 616 bullshit...

Universe 616 is the mainstream story line.

We only argue about universe 616, we can't for example say that Wolverine went on a killing spree, killing Apocalypse, Juggernaut, Pyro, Arcade, Mister Sinister, Blob, Mystique, Sabretooth, and Magneto, as evidence in a fight of Wolverine versus any of those.

But technically he did. . . Universe 2988's Wolverine did anyway, but 616 never did.

Originally posted by manjaro
also jinzin is it me or is that last scan of wolvie fighting hulk was when he was masquerading as death as one of apocalypse horseman in that blue armor and yellow eyes. if it indeed is, dont you think that sucks for the purposes of this debate man...

are you serious dude? you're questioning my knowledge of the multiverse? name one universe where logan isnt some loose cannon named james and has admantium claws and a healing factor? whats the difference between one wolverine and the other. anyhoo, i think we're going off on a tangent here, cuz it seems like you're trying to take me on or something... so i think you need to relax dude, its just a message board, not the end of the world.

also when ever ppl argue on this forum they ususally throw in any character from any situation from any universe they can draw an example from, there was no hard and fast rule that whenever battles are being debated its only from 616, thats just something YOU came up with....cuz you cant stand the thought of wolverine losing..besides i think you would agree that this thread has become a little stagnant since there's only like three ppl debating in here

Originally posted by manjaro
are you serious dude? you're questioning my knowledge of the multiverse? name one universe where logan isnt some loose cannon named james and has admantium claws and a healing factor? whats the difference between one wolverine and the other. anyhoo, i think we're going off on a tangent here, cuz it seems like you're trying to take me on or something... so i think you need to relax dude, its just a message board, not the end of the world

There's a big difference in wolverines because of the events that happen before hand alter who and what the character is.

Seriously if you think the 616 wolverine is like all the other wolverine's you are sadly mistaken.

Originally posted by manjaro
also when ever ppl argue on this forum they ususally throw in any character from any situation from any universe they can draw an example from, there was no hard and fast rule that whenever battles are being debated its only from 616, thats just something YOU came up with....cuz you cant stand the thought of wolverine losing..besides i think you would agree that this thread has become a little stagnant since there's only like three ppl debating in here

Originally posted by Tron
No Non-canon Sources

Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
As well, instances of PIS (plot induce stupidity - see below) and SvFL (Spiderman vs. Firelord - see below) are generally removed from consideration in standard versus debates.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

Funny looks like Tron posted that rule. . .

dude im not talking about story lines im talking about the core character him self. thats never changed in any universe. for example, ultimate nick fury is a black guy...changed. ultimate MOJO is a human albino and not an intergalactic being...changed. ultimate wolverine adamntium claws and healing factor...not changed

Originally posted by Creshosk
Funny looks like Tron posted that rule. . .

well he may have posted it but that doesnt mean it makes any sense. thats just something he came up with when he turned MOD. cuz if thats the case then there would be no threads on this forum. how many marvel versus dc threads are there out there. or charcters from both trespective companies in some kind of matchup, then ppl cite crossover happenings like crazy. man i give up*throws hands in air like he just dont care* 😄 you're hopeless

Originally posted by manjaro
dude im not talking about story lines im talking about the core character him self. thats never changed in any universe. for example, ultimate nick fury is a black guy...changed. ultimate MOJO is a human albino and not an intergalactic being...changed. ultimate wolverine adamntium claws and healing factor...not changed

2988 Wolverine would kill conan so bad that the 2988 Wolverine who has the healing factor and Adamantium etc. . . would have infinite wins out of 10.

Because 2988 also has the ability to kill apocalypse, magneto and juggernaught as part of a killing spree.

But since 2988 is not 616 I can't use him, nor ANY of the events in his history, because he is not the 616 wolverine.

Originally posted by manjaro
well he may have posted it but that doesnt mean it makes any sense. thats just something he came up with when he turned MOD. cuz if thats the case then there would be no threads on this forum. how many marvel versus dc threads are there out there. or charcters from both trespective companies in some kind of matchup, then ppl cite crossover happenings like crazy. man i give up*throws hands in air like he just dont care* 😄 you're hopeless

Why should I have to use 616 when you don't need to?

.....

Originally posted by manjaro
dude wolverine is wolverine is wolverine. he is one of the few charcters in the ENTIRE ultimate universe who's powers and story never got changed, him and captain america so i dont know where you're coming from with that 616 bullshit...oh i get it only when it suits your needs... im not talking about beind simply run thru or stabbed im talkng about being whacked the shit out of with a huge sword or axe(two of conan's most prominent choices), each blow taking out chunks of flesh each time. i dont give a damn who he is he's gonna feel it. i previously mentioned punshier bazooka-ing him in the loweer exremities and blew out all his organs, he was out for the rest of the day. frank even went as far as parking a steam roller on top of him, and left him stranded. now, can frank actually kill him...no, but is that a win for him?...you damn right. like i said if its a fight to the death you're looking for of course wolverine is gonna win, but conan would lay into his ass real seriously enuff to get a victory. you see the thing with wolverine fanboys is that when they see that he can lose a fight they say" oh no, we're talking about killing, not who can get a three count, if its killing wolvie will win." i admit that perhaps i gave him less credit for his pain tolerance, but conan can knock him out nontheless, and dont say he cant be knocked eother cuz he has been on a few occasions

actually wolverine is very very similar to the wolverine of the 616 universe but he's not the same... nor is his history...which we still know very little about. honestly, we know more about 616 wolverine than ultimate.. however, his history is irrelivant...sorry....back to the point, that wolverine is not 616 wolverine...going by that logic sabretooth and wolverine are the same guys in the 616 universe because of their comparitive abilities...which simply isn't true they are two different characters...
also, note, ultimate cap is by far stronger than 616 cap so he is not the same either...
I wasn't talking about being run through or stabbed either... wolverine's been "whacked" by a sword, what does it do? heals in a panal or two, it however doesn't slow him down or stop him... when fighting sabretooth huge chuncks of flesh are torn off of him.....he keeps fighting. wolverine's been hacked at by multiple mechedes before....what did THAT do? nothing, he killed his assailants almost immedietely.

whether you're talking about a fight to the death or a fight to the KO the chances of conan taking this are slimmer than not....you said it yourself wolverine's been knocked out on a few occasions...key word being few....another thing to consider is that when he does get KOed it's usually because he's already battle worn, gets hit with a cheap shot, is poisioned or gassed, or he's being hit by a character who has inhuman super strength. Conan unfortunately, has none of these as a factor on his side going into this fight....neither does Conan posses a bazooka or a steamroller, so I fail to see your point there....

could conan conceivably chop a wall or a tree down on top of wolverine in similar fasion to your punisher example?...if he had the right battlefield and right circumstances sure he could...but what's more likely to happen? him having the right circumstances going for him in this fight is a theory reliant on CHANCE...him falling down and dying after wolverine hits him in the face with his claws however is not..that's a given and that's what makes this fight go in wolverine's favor...every shot wolvie tags will be lasting and deabilitating.....conan does not have that same guarantee...
logistically speaking, conan's fighting an uphill battle here...his entire plan will half to be "hit logan hard enough, enough times to effectively put him down....but he's also fighting against the adamantium skeleton, superb fighting ability, a possible berserker rage, super human endurance, and above human speed and strength. If conan was a superior fighter I'd call this a little more even...hell even now I'd venture to say he can definitely pull out a win or two.....but given what we know about these characters he loses more often than not

also...I seriously hope you weren't reffering to me as a fanboy cause I have not yet insulted you.....

Originally posted by manjaro
also jinzin is it me or is that last scan of wolvie fighting hulk was when he was masquerading as death as one of apocalypse horseman in that blue armor and yellow eyes. if it indeed is, dont you think that sucks for the purposes of this debate man...

no I certainly do not...the pic was in reference to the types of threats that wolverine deals with on a regular basis..sorry but the term savage beast is not as impressive as the name...HULK.....

why would it be useless for the purpose of expanding on THAT POINT? at least that's 616 wolverine...

I have a few questions to pose to this debate. Ive already said my version and Im not gonna cry if people dont agree with me, but it seems like the clincher in this debate is the healing factor. But when Jinzin (i think your the one that posted, it was a few pages back) all of the examples of Wolverine's healing factor, Im confused. Im even more confused when you try to figure out about the spine popping and pulling out. Ive come to the conclusion that there MUST be multiple wolverines of varying degrees of skill and healing ability that exist. This explains why he is always making appearances in everyones comics.

If Wolverine did stuff like bounce back from being hit with a nuke, has taken hits from the Hulk, not been KOed by only a few people, then his healing factor is humongous. I mean, coming back from a NUKE. But likewise, there are other situations where Hes been Hurt by otherstuff, and have to come back to heal. Like in Fatal Attractions, Mags pulled the adamantium off his bones, which Im sure hurt his bones, but bone pain isnt fatal. It looked like the adamantium ripped out of his body in spikes, which im sure WOULD be painful. And in the comic he looked to be almost dead! Jean had to hold his body together with TK, he was seeing the white light, all that stuff. How can someone that has laughed at the HULK, and can bounce back from a NUKE, almost die from being torn up? A NUKE would leave NOTHING. If Wolverine has shrugged off having his neck slice open and heal instantly, and came back from the smoldering ashes that a true NUKE would leave, then what Mags did to him would seem like he wouldnt even hit the floor.

Now, Im not saying him shrugging off the Hulk is PIS, and Im not saying that him getting KOed by Conan hitting him in the back of the head is PIS either. Im just confused. If the real Wolverine can heal instantly, shrug off the Hulk, and eat NUKES for breakfast with his healing, then I think he can take Conan. But if we are talking about the Wolverine that has to slow down when he gets chopped, then I think Conan can win after a big, awesome fight.

They never really came out and explained his healing factor in the books, which is always strange to me. Im in college and I know a little bit about the human anatomy, and there are alot of holes in the whole healing factor that were never plugged.

let me see if i can help....there are not multiple wolverines...however..his healing factoer DOES allow him to regerate at verying degrees....his healing factor is contingent upon his amount of energy and rest that he has....if he hasn't eaten for a while, his healing factor slows down, if he hasn't rested for a while (days on end), his healing factor slows down, if he's been in contual fighting without rest or nurishment his healing factors slows down.....this explains why sometimes he is left bleeding for pages after an explosion, yet in another instance his body heals from being completely burned within a few panals....or why in some instances bullets leave him a bloody mess yet in other instances his healing factor allows his body to heal so fast that it heals behind the trail of a blade that's entered his body before his attacker has a chance to draw the blade back out...

I'm not about to defend him taking a nuke...but what magneto did to him makes since...his own bones had not supported even his own body weight for years and years...the lack of use probably severely weakened them and made them utterly useless for that moment as his healing factor couldn't reach past the adamantium to keep them strong...when magneto pulled the stuff out it came out everywhere...with no reguard for internal organs and the sort......wolverine's reaction to what happened makes sense. But that's a severe example of him falling to trauma....something FAR outside what conan can do to him, I think we can both agree on that...

in any event..we are supposed to be using both characters at the best of their abilities.....even at half of that wolverine should be abel to handle anything conan throws at him with a decent amount of ease. wolverine's been dealing with characters whos boast super strength for nearly 30 years now..it's truly not new to him, nor is it outside his capability to handle punches from people of the sort.....

also consider that wolverine's gotten stronger of over the years...at first a glancing blow from hulk put him down...now he can take multiple hulk punches without passing out....I assume his healing factor is building up a type of immunity to superstrength to compensate for his encounters with superheroes and the sort... given his power it's not unlikely....(just like how bones get stronger after they're broken..now wolverine's punishment tolerance is higher).

but if that doesn't work for you...hey man...it's comics...

The whole energy thing sounds kinda lame. I mean, it makes sense, but it seems like an easy way out to describe his damage regeneration. When he fights one person, he heals cuts instantly, but in another fight he gets hit by a truck and has to take a minute. I dont remember Wolverine ever saying "Oh, your lucky I only got two hours of sleep last night, otherwise I would have healed that by now" or "That blow would have KOed me, if I didnt eat my wheaties this morning" If his healing factor is based of the amount of energy he has, then it seems like his healing factor is a cellular process that requires fuel (ATP fueling cellular division at an increased rate?). Which means that he could only heal up to a certain point, in which his cells would begin to run out of fuel and stop healing. It would also mean his body would be ravenously hungry if he had to heal alot quickly, like the Flash's enhanced metabolism.

I realize that we are suppose to think of the heroes at their strongest, but Wolverine only appears to fluctuate and be strong enough to give whoever he is fighting at the time a good fight.

The idea that his body adapts and forms a kind of immunity to super strength is a good idea. Its similar to how his mind forgot this past to "heal" his mental scars. But if that was true then his body would be alot different than a normal humans. His body would have adapted with like, extremely hard boney armor, or something like that. Unless he is secretly a saiyan and gets stronger whenever he is almost killed.

Oh, and in regard to his pain threshold, I think he has a normal person's pain threshold, he just doesnt tend to care that it hurts since hes gonna heal it anyway. If I had a healing factor, Id do stuff like jump out of windows for fun. It would hurt, but I wouldnt let it bother me because Id know Ill be ok. All in the mind.

Originally posted by jinzin
.....
also...I seriously hope you weren't reffering to me as a fanboy cause I have not yet insulted you.....

nah i was just speaking generally. as whenever ppl defend wolvie thats how it ususally plays out

Originally posted by Onikirimaru
Oh, and in regard to his pain threshold, I think he has a normal person's pain threshold, he just doesnt tend to care that it hurts since hes gonna heal it anyway. If I had a healing factor, Id do stuff like jump out of windows for fun. It would hurt, but I wouldnt let it bother me because Id know Ill be ok. All in the mind.

Wolverine spent two years (october 93 to august 95) with a healing factor that was almost nothing to speak of and even before that Wolverine was constantly mentioning in naration that his healing factor was nothing like it was in his glory days. With out his healing factor Wolverine has fought Sabretooth something like 3 times with out a healing factor, Lady Death Strike twice (once with Omega Red), Deadpool and Roughouse and Bloodscream... I can'y see who anyone could even come close to considering Logan's pain threshold with in a normal range.

lack of sufficient knowledge...it's what I've been saying for forever now... people lack the appropriate knowledge to effectively debate against the character... yet many people think that reading a stats list and a profile will tell them everything they need to know..doesn't matter if the profile's wrong or not..

Or if they're misinterpreting the profile or not. . .