Originally posted by MRasheed
What in the world are you talking about?
God creates all things.
There is horrible suffering that has nothing to do with free will.
You compared being harmed in that way to being hit by a baby.
God is causing the harm (see God creates all things).
God is only as responsible for his actions as a baby.
That would be your argument, not mine. I just think there isn't a god.
Originally posted by Robtard
Whoa, whoa, whoa, then what was all that talk about "good deeds need to outweigh the bad" shtick, when I was arguing the same exact thing concerning belief being the ultimate redemption in the eyes of God?
Since I have no idea when someone is destined to die, I can't kill a sinner based on my understanding. He very well might turn his life around tomorrow and live the next 20 years as the most righteous man ever.
That was my point.
Now if he did do a death bed conversion, I wouldn't wish to discourage it, but (assuming he was truly sincere) his punishment wouldn't be as bad as it would if he hadn't repented. But the good deeds he did as an unbeliever meant nothing and didn't count at all towards his score, so after he converted both his good and bad deeds are zeroed out except for the unforgivable sins. So, considering he will die in another ten minutes, he has that much time to stagger his weak and dying body somewhere and try to go some real good deeds right quick so those unforgivable sins won't outweigh them. lol
Originally posted by MRasheed
lol No. I was just pointing out that your "humans think that God is wrong!" line was very inaccurate, since I'm human and think no such a thing. lol
do you think humans should have mercy for eachother regardless of their beliefs? should you be merciful to a jew if they are in need? should I be merciful to a believer when they are in need?
or, in your definition of benevolence, am I suppose to refuse you aide because you are different than I?
Originally posted by Deja~vu
I didn't think it did.
well, like, in Islam, nobody is divine like that, not even Mohammed
in fact, while Jesus is a prophet, they don't think he brought the truth. he was just preparing the world for Mohammed. basically, he isn't a prophet because he spoke the true word, but because he would make people ready to accept the true word.
all the stuff that contradicts Islam in the bible is thought to be because of this. If Jesus had the truth revieled to him, he would have said the same as mohammed
Originally posted by inimalist
do you think humans should have mercy for each other regardless of their beliefs? should you be merciful to a jew if they are in need? should I be merciful to a believer when they are in need?
Of course.
Originally posted by inimalist
or, in your definition of benevolence, am I suppose to refuse you aide because you are different than I?
That was certainly no definition that I had. You pulled that out of your butt.
Originally posted by inimalist
well, like, in Islam, nobody is divine like that, not even Mohammedin fact, while Jesus is a prophet, they don't think he brought the truth. he was just preparing the world for Mohammed. basically, he isn't a prophet because he spoke the true word, but because he would make people ready to accept the true word.
all the stuff that contradicts Islam in the bible is thought to be because of this. If Jesus had the truth revieled to him, he would have said the same as mohammed
This is not true. The message of all the prophets was the same:
Believe in God, reject evil so you can avoid hell, do good so you may receive paradise, beware the penalty of the Last Day.
In addition to this they also had local, specialized instruction they gave to their specific people they were raised up among.
Originally posted by MRasheed
Of course.That was certainly no definition that I had. You pulled that out of your butt.
the second follows from the first though, I was just trying to explain my position in more detail
but here is how I see it. If I am able to overcome my bias and be benevolent toward those who reject the things I hold sacred, and we both consider this to be a form of benovelence, why would God not be able to overcome such an obsticle?
I mean, I suppose I really take no issue with people having belief. It is what your life experiences have driven you to, the same as mine have pushed me in a different way. I have a problem with a God that is supposedly unable to overcome this simple social issue that both you and I are.
I mean, we can disagree fundamentally on an issue, and still discuss it as rational adults, as evidenced by this thread. You have treated me with nothing but respect, and I hope you feel the same. If God is supposed to surpass humans in benevolence and mercy, wouldn't being able to see past people's beliefs be trivial for him? wouldn't it matter more that someone is a good and moral person, than that they came to a different conclusion about the origins of the universe?
Originally posted by MRasheed
This is not true. The message of all the prophets was the same:Believe in God, reject evil so you can avoid hell, do good so you may receive paradise, beware the penalty of the Last Day.
In addition to this they also had local, specialized instruction they gave to their specific people they were raised up among.
I could have gotten a minor in Islamic studies/medeteranian studies (as it was called at my university) but I never formalized it, I'm generaly paraphrasing things that people far more informed than I have said. Ive also read papers that talk about how Sidhartha is treated in the same way...
also, Im not sure where what you said is in conflict with what I said?
Originally posted by inimalist
the second follows from the first though, I was just trying to explain my position in more detailbut here is how I see it. If I am able to overcome my bias and be benevolent toward those who reject the things I hold sacred, and we both consider this to be a form of benovelence, why would God not be able to overcome such an obsticle?
I mean, I suppose I really take no issue with people having belief. It is what your life experiences have driven you to, the same as mine have pushed me in a different way. I have a problem with a God that is supposedly unable to overcome this simple social issue that both you and I are.
I mean, we can disagree fundamentally on an issue, and still discuss it as rational adults, as evidenced by this thread. You have treated me with nothing but respect, and I hope you feel the same. If God is supposed to surpass humans in benevolence and mercy, wouldn't being able to see past people's beliefs be trivial for him? wouldn't it matter more that someone is a good and moral person, than that they came to a different conclusion about the origins of the universe?
I see what the issue is. Here...
The Holy Qur'an 3:74
For His Mercy He specially chooseth whom He pleaseth; for Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded.
The Holy Qur'an 3:129
To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and punisheth whom He pleaseth; but Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
You're seeing it as something God CAN'T do, like there is a block or something. As the Author of this Game of Life we are experiencing, in which it ends with the dispensing of great rewards and great punishments, God has explained what the rules are. Following these rules and taking advantage of how they work is the difference between prosperity and damnation.
Your approach of interpreting certain matters in which you are questioning God's intent, authority, etc. is not a good path to take in this. lol God said that he mercy is reserved for those who choose to believe, and that company will find His mercy to be a blessed overflow far greater than any other being who practices mercy is able to conjure. But you are saying, "Well, because He's not showing mercy over here, He has a problem!!"
Truly I fail to see how that attitude will profit you.
Originally posted by inimalist
I could have gotten a minor in Islamic studies/medeteranian studies (as it was called at my university) but I never formalized it, I'm generaly paraphrasing things that people far more informed than I have said. Ive also read papers that talk about how Sidhartha is treated in the same way... also, Im not sure where what you said is in conflict with what I said?
These are the points you said that are at odds with Jesus' prophetic office:
Originally posted by inimalist
1.) while Jesus is a prophet, they don't think he brought the truth
2.) he isn't a prophet because he spoke the true word, but because he would make people ready to accept the true word
3.) If Jesus had the truth revealed to him, he would have said the same as mohammed
The first point is wrong because all the prophets brought the exact same message... Believe in God, reject evil so you can avoid hell, do good so you may receive paradise, beware the penalty of the Last Day.
The second point is wrong because, not only did he utter the same message as Muhammad, but in addition to this, he prophecized the coming of Muhammad. Muhammad's message was more universal in scope in that it was the cultivated development of an entire believing community, while Jesus' message was primarily of local flavor and directed toward the children of Israel.
The third point was wrong because Jesus did say the same message as Muhammad, but more narrow in focus towards a specific audience.