Originally posted by Achilles X
As for Malak vs the Exile, It is a very tough battle, but I think Malak takes it. As said before, the Exile only defeated Nihilus because his eating powers didn't work on the Exile. He defeated Sion's will, and there's a very good argument that Kreia let the Exile kill her. I mean let's face it, Kreia knew of the True Sith, knew they were much more powerful than she or any other Force User in the galaxy at the time. She also knew that the Exile was one of the only people who could help Revan. I think, not only was her defeat from him, but actually her actions through out the whole game, were just a huge test to ready the Exile for combat against the True Sith. In fact looking back on it now, I'd say that's quite obvious. So in a straight up battle, we have no idea how the Exile would fare against Kreia. And until we know what the canon ending for KOTOR II is, we won't know if the Exile was dark or light, and we won't know if he defeated the jeedai masters or not. No I'd say Malak takes it.
like janus said very much agreed
Originally posted by Fishy
Are you so sure about that?Kreia easily took him down just a day or so earlier, she also easily destroyed three Jedi Masters before that, you would think she'd be able to knock somebody like him out again or at least hurt him really badly with just one attack, yet she didn't. Her true power lies in the force and for some reason she still fights with a lightsaber, then once you defeat her she talks to you. And suddenly she continues fighting this time she does use the force. She didn't do that before, why wouldn't she use her most powerful ally at the beginning of the fight if she wanted to win?
Throughout the entire game she talks about how you (the Exile) needs to come full circile, how you need to confront your history and your future she is a big part of it at that time, she does not want you to have any ties when you go to confront or help Revan. She is definitly something that stands in the way.
She also wanted the force destroyed, but you failed in that, or Nihilus whomever it is the force was still in one piece after Nihilus died, she was probably really dissapointed and without a possibility of destroying the force she would have had no reason to live. Why not sacrifise herself to help somebody she loves, as her last act she did something for somebody else. I think there is plenty of evidence around except for anybody actually saying it.
Yes but remember how much stronger the Exile got. Malak could paralyze Revan on the Leviathan, had him at his mercy, yet a week later, Revan comes back stronger than his previous reign no less and beats Malak not once, but twice in a row.
The Exile gained another Force power right after he got up, stormed the entire ship Ravager, beat Nihilus (and possibly gains a little of his force connection back.) Then he goes to Malachor V, fights many, many monsters, and single handedly wipes out all of TRAYUS ACADEMY. These guys were good, and perhaps even made the Korriban academy look weak. Right after fighting them all, he beats Sion 4 or 5 times in a row, and then goes on to fight Traya. Even if she was holding back, He still did really well, especially after all he had just fought. IMO, the Exile would beat Malak, but it wouldn't be a walk in the park.
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Yes but remember how much stronger the Exile got. Malak could paralyze Revan on the Leviathan, had him at his mercy, yet a week later, Revan comes back stronger than his previous reign no less and beats Malak not once, but twice in a row.The Exile gained another Force power right after he got up, stormed the entire ship Ravager, beat Nihilus (and possibly gains a little of his force connection back.) Then he goes to Malachor V, fights many, many monsters, and single handedly wipes out all of TRAYUS ACADEMY. These guys were good, and perhaps even made the Korriban academy look weak. Right after fighting them all, he beats Sion 4 or 5 times in a row, and then goes on to fight Traya. Even if she was holding back, He still did really well, especially after all he had just fought. IMO, the Exile would beat Malak, but it wouldn't be a walk in the park.
1- There was no specific time frame, nor is there a real indicator of Revan getting stronger in any amount of time between the capture of Bastila and the final confrontation, although a few days to a week is fair, I suppose. Anyways, entertain the possibility that Malak froze Revan through the element of shock and surprise. Mind you, this is some Sith lord badass confronting Revan (who doesn't know he's Revan) and his entire crew as they are trying to escape. Fighting and such was the last thing on his mind.
2- The change between the Exile on Dantooine and the Exile later on on Malachor V is that the Exile on Malachor was WHOLE. He had his Force attunement back, meaning if anything, Kreia's "wounding Force" attack, that left the jedi masters dead and left their bodies bereft of the Force itself would **** him right up!
3- You don't know he fought a soul in Trayus Academy besides Sion and Kreia, so don't presume to think he fought the whole damn place. Why? Well, you have no canon FMV, statement from a narrator, or otherwise to even think he fought anyone. It's game mechanics and gameplay neccessity that there was anyone inside.
4- Assuming that the Sith on Malachor V (Who can't even be proven to canonically exist in that time and place, nor can they be numbered) are better than the ones on Korribam (A training academy of much lower calibre) is really a poor statement. One, different game mechanics make the ones in KOTOR (Which could be encountered in any order, and were matched by Revan's level in a game with a level 20 cap) weaker, and two, it's a training academy on level with... hell... Like comparing West Point to Dug's Weekend School for Fighting Guys.
5- The Exile doesn't "beat Sion four or five times in a row". He fights him and works verbally on his willpower, finally causing Sion to give up. Four or five is actually pretty bad. I can do it in two myself.
6- You have no idea how canonically the Exile won the fight, period. You cannot say he did pretty well at all. You have nothing to base it on but game play experience.
Janus, with that logic the entire games are useless and only the chronicles from the KOTOR 2 website shows anything.
1. Malak says he's even stronger than his last reign, on the Leviathan, he is condescending to Revan and saying he's only a shell of what he was. Game mechanics say he got stronger, c'mon, he was fighting hundreds of different enemies, so naturally he would get stronger. It's like Kreia says, when one is in combat, one gets stronger, when one is not in combat, one gets weaker. Or something along those lines. We KNOW he got stronger than he was on the Leviathan, and if you're using that logic, you could again say we don't know Ragnos defeated anyone but Simus so he hasn't. (Not trying to start that mess again, but you've gotta be fair.
2. All the Force attunement back is total speculation. Nihilus doesn't have to try and drain the Exile, nor does he have to take the mask or anything like that, it's not a fact.
3. There's no way you can get through Trayus Academy to Sion without fighting anyone. No, he didn't necessarily beat everyone, but he still has to defeat probably a third of them.
4. Why is it a poor statement? Malachor V has WAY more knowledge, sith artifacts, and more than Korriban. It channels the dark side better, and has stronger leaders. All facts point that Trayus Academy most likely has stronger students than Korriban.
5. I've never done it less than four, so if two's the least then he still beats him twice in a row fighting.
6. We know he fought them and won, it's that simple. Why are you talking like this? You don't question how Dooku beat Obi, or anything from the movies, nor do you question Ragnos' power when we have nothing to go on cannonically except he defeated Simus (who we have no idea how powerful he was) and he ruled for a century, manipulating his enemies into fighting each other. That's it. We don't even know he was stronger than Sadow. So don't use this kind of logic in one argument, but not all of them.
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
3. There's no way you can get through Trayus Academy to Sion without fighting anyone. No, he didn't necessarily beat everyone, but he still has to defeat probably a third of them.
Haha...did you ever try to use one of the Stealth Units you can find in the game. You can simply use it and walk through the academy without having a single soul attacking you (just checked it before posting).
4. Why is it a poor statement? Malachor V has WAY more knowledge, sith artifacts, and more than Korriban. It channels the dark side better, and has stronger leaders. All facts point that Trayus Academy most likely has stronger students than Korriban.
More artifacts and knowledge than Korriban where all ancient Sith Lords are burried ? Better connection to the dark side than the homeworld of the Sith Empire filled with the tombs of serveral hundrets Dark Lords including holocrons, artifacts and stuff like that ? I don't think so...
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Janus, with that logic the entire games are useless and only the chronicles from the KOTOR 2 website shows anything.1. Malak says he's even stronger than his last reign, on the Leviathan, he is condescending to Revan and saying he's only a shell of what he was. Game mechanics say he got stronger, c'mon, he was fighting hundreds of different enemies, so naturally he would get stronger. It's like Kreia says, when one is in combat, one gets stronger, when one is not in combat, one gets weaker. Or something along those lines. We KNOW he got stronger than he was on the Leviathan, and if you're using that logic, you could again say we don't know Ragnos defeated anyone but Simus so he hasn't. (Not trying to start that mess again, but you've gotta be fair.
2. All the Force attunement back is total speculation. Nihilus doesn't have to try and drain the Exile, nor does he have to take the mask or anything like that, it's not a fact.
3. There's no way you can get through Trayus Academy to Sion without fighting anyone. No, he didn't necessarily beat everyone, but he still has to defeat probably a third of them.
4. Why is it a poor statement? Malachor V has WAY more knowledge, sith artifacts, and more than Korriban. It channels the dark side better, and has stronger leaders. All facts point that Trayus Academy most likely has stronger students than Korriban.
5. I've never done it less than four, so if two's the least then he still beats him twice in a row fighting.
6. We know he fought them and won, it's that simple. Why are you talking like this? You don't question how Dooku beat Obi, or anything from the movies, nor do you question Ragnos' power when we have nothing to go on cannonically except he defeated Simus (who we have no idea how powerful he was) and he ruled for a century, manipulating his enemies into fighting each other. That's it. We don't even know he was stronger than Sadow. So don't use this kind of logic in one argument, but not all of them.
1- The point here is this: Unlike Marka Ragnos (in which case there were almost certainly competition... whether or not said competition was fought is another question) there is only "hundreds" as you put it, enemies because it's a GAME! In a video game, things are meant to be challenging. I mean, come on... on Taris you fight more individuals than there were stormtroopers in the entire OT. Think rationally, and you'll get what I'm saying... Now in regards to Revan getting stronger... speculation, founded on two statements from dubious sources- Kreia and Malak. In the case of Malak, you have taken the words of Revan's archenemy and claimed them as irrefutable fact. Also, with Kreia's general statement, you have taken it literally to mean that one grows stronger through conflict (even if that is a fair statement) but since there is no specifications as to how much conflict leads to how much change, you have made the assumption that Revan grew that much stronger fighting peons afterwards to what? Overcome Malak? Ridiculous... You cannot replace "it is" with "i wish", and you cannot rewrite facts.
2- Speculation it is, inferred from all the information and hints in the game. The only other solution is that the Exile is "not" whole and remains a wound to this day. None of that may neccessarily happen (Although to my knowledge Nihilus drains you -neccessarily as a plot element-)
3- Read Nai's statement. You can stealth through the whole place.
4- Read my statement. Korriban was not made to be more difficult, and since we've already established that the Sith within can't be directly compared with the Sith on Malachor V, what difference does this point make if one can simply stealth past them all?
5- At what point does it cease to be the same fight?
6- Ragnos is -the- most powerful Sith of the height of the Sith empire. He defeated Simus, the most powerful Sith lord before him. Sadow and Kressh were afraid of him. Now, in regards to movie characters, we can make better inferences because all of our material is clearly laid out and mostly visible. Not so with game characters who reflect a player's choices and likes or dislikes.
Lack of proof is not proof of lacking. The Exile, even if he did not technically do all those things in the game, could do them. You can't say that it is impossible for the Exile to kill three Jedi Masters, two Sith Lords, and two Sith Ladies(?)? He did lead the assault on Onderon, that is a fact. He was THE deciding factor in the Battle for Koonda. He was one of the generals in Revan's Army.
You can't say Revan did anything acoording to the crappy idea you and some other members have been going by recently. I could have lost against Dead Eye Duncan in KOTOR and that means that Revan had done nothing except kill about ten Sith troopers.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Lack of proof is not proof of lacking. The Exile, even if he did not technically do all those things in the game, could do them. You can't say that it is impossible for the Exile to kill three Jedi Masters, two Sith Lords, and two Sith Ladies(?)? He did lead the assault on Onderon, that is a fact. He was THE deciding factor in the Battle for Koonda. He was one of the generals in Revan's Army.You can't say Revan did anything acoording to the crappy idea you and some other members have been going by recently. I could have lost against Dead Eye Duncan in KOTOR and that means that Revan had done nothing except kill about ten Sith troopers.
Damn, Glentract... if you're gonna quote me, do it right.
"absence of proof is not proof of absence."
And the point behind that means just that. But the difference between the Exile and Marka Ragnos is that his fate, his position, and its longevity as well as how he attained the position as THE Sith lord of Sith lords for over a century is sealed. Final. We have some canonical data to infer from.
With the Exile, we can either say it MAY HAVE happened, or it MAY NOT HAVE, in most cases.
Let me demonstrate...
Technically, you can do things totally out of character in KOTOR II, such as murder all the Jedi masters and still maintain a relatively good alignment.
Technically, you can beat everyone and everything with your bare hands.
Technically, you can defeat Nihilus without any help from Visas or Canderous.
But what you need is -more than- this petty "technically" shit. You need something a bit more grounded, considering you are dealing with someone who doesn't even have n established fate or even personality.
It MAY HAVE or MAY NOT HAVE been possible for the Exile to kill three Jedi masters. It's also possible for anyone in the KOTOR series (Specifically, Malak, Revan, Kreia, Juhani, Visas) to do such. The means with which it was done (whether through skill, trickery, surprise, or whatever) is completely uncertain. Therefore, you can infer no real accomplishment from this. It is like saying Patton took Hill 18, but not saying how or if even the enemy was defeated from another army group, from within, or just retreated. You have the end result in the case of potential victories here (in the case of Jedi masters, I mean) and nothing beforehand to indicate if the Exile was even on the same level. Rationally, to think that the Exile went to war as a padawan and came back only to become stronger than jedi masters (aside from the possibility that he used his dirty unique talent) is ridiculous.
Now, in regards to Sion, we KNOW that Sion's will was defeated. Why? This is a fact. It is the only way it could have gone. The exile has not defeated Sion in combat by depleting his life bar any more than Brianna the Handmaiden "defeated" Atris by depleting -her- lifebar in combat. (ONly to have Atris go full health when the Exile walks in, seconds later.)
He lead the assault on Onderon. What? Grabbing at straws now? This tells us his capability how? Is there a war going on here in this thread and I've forgotten it? Moot point. Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Malak himself have lead assaults in far more dangerous places.
Again, GENERAL in Revan's army. Tarkin was a general of sorts in Sidious' army. Was he neccessarily the best warrior in the army or the best thinker?
No, on the contrary, YOU can't prove that he DID beat Deadeye Duncan. But since you think I am out to discredit Revan, here... I'll give you this: Revan beat Malak... somehow. Most likely a one-on-one duel, but it could have been a lucky shot. We do not yet know. I do know from a quote by the ONderon cantina owner that some newcomer reached the third tier in the same day (roughyl, the time period isn't specifically mentioned, but it is implicitly brief) in the Manaan swoop race meet. I can infer from that much that it was someone with amazing skills, most likely a jedi. And the only jedi I know of who would have raced on Manaan would have been Revan. So Revan is a swoop race champ, most likely. There.
Please, don't go about grabbing at "But he did this... He did that". Try and do something a bit more involved.
Hmm Janus, we do know some more about the fight between Revan and Malak then you claim there.
First of all we know Revan defeated Malak twice in a row. We know that Malak admitted defeat at the end. Either by saying that the light side is tronger or by saying Revan was always the master, now whatever he says it implies that he lost in a fair fight.
Besides that you are pretty much right however.
Lol, btw Emperor Revan...
Malak might have been able to freeze Revan on the leviathan, he also ran away from Revan just moments later. Meaning he was not more powerful then Revan or at least not by a lot. Carth might think so, but if Malak would trully have been able to kill you there and then he would have.
I didn't mean Malak was way stronger, but he did paralyze him, and Bastila basically saved his life (though Revan did break free really quick). Malak didn't run away, in fact, it was more of Revan running away than anything. I suppose he might have caught him off guard though.
Janus: Revan DOES get stronger from the Leviathan to the Star Forge. The mere fact that he's stronger in game dynamics should be enough to show that he gets stronger. You don't say that Kyle is as strong at the start of Jedi Knight or Outcast than he is by the end of the game. Next, Revan fought (99.9% of players) hundreds of Sith apprentices, some Mandalorians, Rancors, assassin droids, and more.
Take AOTC Obi for example. 10 years after TPM, and he's not that much stronger. Put him and Anakin in a time of war for three years and they come back much stronger.
Malak's statement is most likely true, he is surprised that Revan just survived and says he is stronger than his previous reign. He also thinks he can whoop up on Revan so why would he be lying? Why would Kreia be lying? You don't question her when she says Tulak was the greatest swordsman, or that Marka had tremendous strength both physically and in the Force.
Nai Fohl: Yeah but, the stealth... damn you! 😂
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
I didn't mean Malak was way stronger, but he did paralyze him, and Bastila basically saved his life (though Revan did break free really quick). Malak didn't run away, in fact, it was more of Revan running away than anything. I suppose he might have caught him off guard though.Janus: Revan DOES get stronger from the Leviathan to the Star Forge. The mere fact that he's stronger in game dynamics should be enough to show that he gets stronger. You don't say that Kyle is as strong at the start of Jedi Knight or Outcast than he is by the end of the game. Next, Revan fought (99.9% of players) hundreds of Sith apprentices, some Mandalorians, Rancors, assassin droids, and more.
Take AOTC Obi for example. 10 years after TPM, and he's not that much stronger. Put him and Anakin in a time of war for three years and they come back much stronger.
Malak's statement is most likely true, he is surprised that Revan just survived and says he is stronger than his previous reign. He also thinks he can whoop up on Revan so why would he be lying? Why would Kreia be lying? You don't question her when she says Tulak was the greatest swordsman, or that Marka had tremendous strength both physically and in the Force.
Nai Fohl: Yeah but, the stealth... damn you! 😂
I'm of the mind to think Revan's power may have come back gradually, but only because he was slowly regaining his memories. Outside of gameplay, there is nothing besides Malak's statement to show otherwise. Just a point there, tis all.
Also, you can't prove to me that he did or didn't fight at most 99.999 % to 10% of the nonstoryline neccessary enemies. Again, look at any of the books, or at the movies... Jedi just don't kill thousands of opponents at once... that is the result of game play neccessity.
True, conflict does make a huge difference, I think that's a good point. But specifically we have no idea of how much it affected Revan or even if he did (Or rather, she did) fight any enemies after Malak. And in keeping in character, Revan was a tactician; it is just as likely that Revan's party outwitted and outsmarted foes as opposed to straight out killing them in a level playing field. Just a thought.
And indeed, why would Kreia be lying? She probably isn't, just as she isn't lying about Tulak Hord or Marka Ragnos. But we have to entertain both possibilities behind her words - that they are or aren't right- until we have something better to go on.