I've been staying out of these Phoenix debates, but upon really analyzing the arguments being presented as to how Phoenix is supposedly the most powerful being under
God in Marvel, GS, I just want to add that I seriously think there is a confusion between purpose and power. The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power. I can use a pencil to draw a picture and an eraser to make corrections, but the pencil has no influence on something I've written in permanent ink or accidentally spilled and stained on the same canvas.
Phoenix is essentially the TOAA's pencil.
He used the Phoenix force to sketch (create) multiversal existence, and erase it when necessary so he can make changes or draw a new picture. Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil) and keeps everything in order, the Anomaly is, well, anomalous, and outside the bounds of multiversal influence and reason (and no, I'm not making this character up, it's real. It's sole purpose is being the embodiment of, well, anomalies, and nothing in the multiverse can really effect it so long as there is existence. That's it's sole purpose. Marvel writers go to far sometimes), Anthromopomorpho's purpose is creating M-Bodies; the manifestation bodies for all the abstracts and cosmic deities, and the Time Twisters and Time-Keepers have domain over time and reality and usher in the end of all time, even to the point where their purpose is outside of the jurisdiction of the LT. Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.
Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.
GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".
I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.
The Phoenix Force is used to create life and burn away existence to begin anew in the multiverse.
Living Tribunal was created to maintain balance and defend existence in the multiverse Phoenix was used to create.
My oven bakes bread and broils meat, burns it up when I leave it in there too long, and is there to cook another meal.
My gun and my Louisville Slugger protect my oven that cooks my meals, and the place where I eat and sleep.
Purpose doesn't equal power.
Now I'll go back to sticking with the street level debates where things are much more simple...
til Batman is brought up.
Originally posted by illadelph12
I've been staying out of these Phoenix debates, but upon really analyzing the arguments being presented as to how Phoenix is supposedly the most powerful being underGod in Marvel, GS, I just want to add that I seriously think there is a confusion between purpose and power. The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power. I can use a pencil to draw a picture and an eraser to make corrections, but the pencil has no influence on something I've written in permanent ink or accidentally spilled and stained on the same canvas.
Phoenix is essentially the TOAA's pencil.
He used the Phoenix force to sketch (create) multiversal existence, and erase it when necessary so he can make changes or draw a new picture. Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil) and keeps everything in order, the Anomaly is, well, anomalous, and outside the bounds of multiversal influence and reason (and no, I'm not making this character up, it's real. It's sole purpose is being the embodiment of, well, anomalies, and nothing in the multiverse can really effect it so long as there is existence. That's it's sole purpose. Marvel writers go to far sometimes), Anthromopomorpho's purpose is creating M-Bodies; the manifestation bodies for all the abstracts and cosmic deities, and the Time Twisters and Time-Keepers have domain over time and reality and usher in the end of all time, even to the point where their purpose is outside of the jurisdiction of the LT. Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.
Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.
GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".
I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.
The Phoenix Force is used to create life and burn away existence to begin anew in the multiverse.
Living Tribunal was created to maintain balance and defend existence in the multiverse Phoenix was used to create.
My oven bakes bread and broils meat, burns it up when I leave it in there too long, and is there to cook another meal.
My gun and my Louisville Slugger protect my oven that cooks my meals, and the place where I eat and sleep.
Purpose doesn't equal power.
Now I'll go back to sticking with the street level debates where things are much more simple...
til Batman is brought up.
very good post sir, it should enlighten many
Originally posted by illadelph12
I've been staying out of these Phoenix debates, but upon really analyzing the arguments being presented as to how Phoenix is supposedly the most powerful being underGod in Marvel, GS, I just want to add that I seriously think there is a confusion between purpose and power. The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power. I can use a pencil to draw a picture and an eraser to make corrections, but the pencil has no influence on something I've written in permanent ink or accidentally spilled and stained on the same canvas.
Phoenix is essentially the TOAA's pencil.
He used the Phoenix force to sketch (create) multiversal existence, and erase it when necessary so he can make changes or draw a new picture. Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil) and keeps everything in order, the Anomaly is, well, anomalous, and outside the bounds of multiversal influence and reason (and no, I'm not making this character up, it's real. It's sole purpose is being the embodiment of, well, anomalies, and nothing in the multiverse can really effect it so long as there is existence. That's it's sole purpose. Marvel writers go to far sometimes), Anthromopomorpho's purpose is creating M-Bodies; the manifestation bodies for all the abstracts and cosmic deities, and the Time Twisters and Time-Keepers have domain over time and reality and usher in the end of all time, even to the point where their purpose is outside of the jurisdiction of the LT. Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.
Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.
GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".
I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.
The Phoenix Force is used to create life and burn away existence to begin anew in the multiverse.
Living Tribunal was created to maintain balance and defend existence in the multiverse Phoenix was used to create.
My oven bakes bread and broils meat, burns it up when I leave it in there too long, and is there to cook another meal.
My gun and my Louisville Slugger protect my oven that cooks my meals, and the place where I eat and sleep.
Purpose doesn't equal power.
Now I'll go back to sticking with the street level debates where things are much more simple...
til Batman is brought up.
batman with prep can bet them all.........................serious no joke.
Its nice to see a fresh face and a different view point in this never ending phoenix argument. Thank you illadelph your view is valued. However i have not confused purpose with power. All my claims i have now backed up with scans or quotes with a reference to the issues they have come from. So it is not a case of me speculating and then coming to a conclusion. Im just presenting to the forum whats already there in the comics.
""""""""""""""""""""""""The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Well this much is obvious. When have i ever stated the contrary? As the supreme being of course TOAA could do that. Phoenix is his creation aspect. You've left me very confused.
""""" Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil)
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
True.LT does safeguard the multiverse Phoenix created i have not disputed his role. LT however is not a constant throughout the creation process that is where you are wrong. At the end of creation LT is shown to be one of the entities replaced and surpassed by an evolved humanity. This evolution and replacement of LT and the abstracts is is a signal to phoenix. It then consumes the multiverse
In X-Men Forever 6: Tomorrow begins Today the Stranger planned to speed up human evolution in order to collapse creation and emerge as the supreme being of the next reality using phoenix. Eternity freezes time in order to talk to Jean.He tells her that creation continually moves between life and death,order and chaos.The Phoenix is the resurrection force,the assurance of life after death.The Celestials have put in every race the potential to become greater than the abstract entities (LT was included in the comic as one of the beings affected by this process) and bring the creation to its end.Creation will plunge into Oblivion,but in time Creation will renew itself:it is a cyclical process,the natural order of things.
- The Abstract are reflections of the Universe.They can be substituted,and their slot occupied by others.Humanity has been said to have the potential to replace them,and in any case they wont last more than this version of the Universe.The Phoenix on the other hand is not an abstract,is a force.It is the very force of creation that keeps the process going on forever. Phoenix is the only constant in creation.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.
Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.
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It seems you are the confused one Ill. No offence intended. That is not and never has been my line of logic i think perhaps you have misinterpreted. Show me where you believe that i have portrayed that to be my logic and i'll set you straight. The M bodies are only required so that the abstracts can manifest themselves as a physical body within reality. Anth is just a tool for the abstracts just as the Celestials are just a tool for Eternity. He certainly does not own the abstracts i.m.o not through the role he has.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Some people doubted that Phoenix was even beyond the likes of Galactus (despite the latest F4 handbook showing she/it is responsible for his creation) or Eternity. That scene helped to give people an idea of phoenixes standing. It is hardly inconsequential Ill. I have never once used this as a sole reason for why Phoenix is second only to TOAA ive just listed it as one of her feats so i fail to see your point here. LT may be able to do all of that but presumably unknown to you until now the Phoenix power has been shown in comic book form to be greater than LT, shown to be the only constant in creation. LT along with the other abstracts are all affected by the cycle of creation. Read Xmen Forever for more details. That point about the END was complete speculation i really dont know where that came from.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
He certainly could try anyway. At the end of the day LT is affected by the power of creation he is one of those surpassed and replaced by humanity he is affected by the cycle of creation he's one of its "victims"
As for your summary on their roles and positions. That is also not quite correct. Phoenix doesnt just do those things, Phoenix acts as a multiversal doctor, she/it maintains creation through avatars which perform microsurgery from inside reality. For example the M'kraan crystal incident, the sterilisation of earth from Sublime.
I havent confused purpose with power in the slightest.
That was a good post though. Credit where credits due. Its just that it was based on incomplete info and that was its downfall. With that info presented the post while logical and well presented, falls apart because its keystone was the point that LT and some other abstracts are constants or permament ink to phoenixes eraser and pencil. That was incorrect.
[Got a little sidetracked, I'm at work].
I think there in lies our misunderstanding GS, or rather, difference of opinion. TOAA created all, Phoenix just happens to be the name of the power he used (parallel to the belief in our reality of God the creator and the Holy Spirit, the energy of life). Saying "Phoenix is responsible for creating the abstracts" makes it seem like it was a personal feat. TOAA created existence using a power which has been deemed "the Phoenix Force". The beings created also use "the Phoenix Force", if you think about it, because it's the base of all creation and in all things that exists.
The Phoenix force is the self-sustaining base element of existence in the Marvel Universe.
There are beings, like Anomaly (and LT, save a retcon I'm unaware of), that are constants throughout the multiverse, and survive these 'ends' (or better, 'remodellings'😉 of universes that the Phoenix Force brings about. When the 616 Universe gets torn down to build a new duplex with a pool, LT, Anomaly, the Time Twisters and their divergents the Time Keepers, and Anthromopomorpho will still exist. Abstracts like Eternity, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and the others..., not so much (Bye-bye Galactus. Here's a T-shirt.). They'll be replaced in the next cycle by new representative entities, just as their counterparts in alternate universes and realities will be replaced when the cycle comes to them.
Anomaly is a kind of anti embodiment. So long as there is existence there is Anomaly. It represents the unbalance and the unknown (if that makes sense, I didn't create the character. Don't blame me). Sort of like Phoenix: Life, Death, and Life Anew, while Anomaly: Known, unknown, and continued, uh, well, unknown.
There will always be life (Phoenix), and so there will always be ignorance (Anomaly).
Poetic, isn't it.
As for Phoenix's "doctor" role, LT performs the same functions.
When a universe becomes a cancer to the multiverse, LT can:
A) Cuts it out of the whole to protect the remainder.
B) Quarantines it off from the rest of creation.
C) Fix it.
But don't touch the sides or you'll get buzzed.
It's a cosmic game of Operation.
I believe LT could have fixed the M'Krann crystal if that had been within the bounds of his purpose, but, it's one of the sole duties and purposes of the Phoenix Force, so that's who/what got the job done.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought LT wasn't an 'abstract'. I know he has an M-Body, but the abstracts are conceptual embodiments (embodiment of order, embodiment of chaos, embodiment of love, embodiment of hate, embodiment of death, etc.). LT is the commissioned overseer of all existence, created by TOAA for that sole purpose; not for the manifestation or embodiment of a concept, but for the sole purpose of protecting creation, from the beginning. If that's changed or been retconned, could you tell me in which book?
Now [tangent], as for this thing about humanity evolving to eventually replace the abstracts, that's both interesting and puzzling. Now, as a kind of philosophy nut myself, I, personally, do believe in a possibility of thought, concept, and reality being one, though humanity (in real life, not in comics) doesn't have the mental ability currently to perceive and manipulate this part of our reality. God (if you believe he/she/it exists) can manifest thought into reality, and we, being created in his image (again, if you believe), more than likely could also pull this off, but due to our adopting the concept of 'impossible', we don't reach our full potential due to limiting ourselves. I like that idea for a storyline in a comic. It's a philosophy I've always tried to come to grips with and thrown around in my head constantly. Kind of the whole "Why are we here and what is our purpose and potential?" question that drives us on.
[The above paragraph has nothing to do with this debate, simply a philosophical statement inspired by a concept now being used in a comic]
As far as in comics (back on topic), is this evolutionary step a multiversal or universal event? There are universes and realities within the Marvel Multiverse where humans do not exist, and others still where humans do exist, but the Celestials did not manipulate the genes of the species to create these various mutations that manifest in the 616 main Marvel universe, so I'm thinking it's more of a 616 universe exclusive event in which the humans will evolve to a state where they will replace the abstracts in the hierarchy, I don't think it's on a multiversal scale, meaning that in an alternate universe, like the one with the anti-Galactus being named Mystery (a 'female' abstract that brings life energy to dying planets rather than feeding on the life energy of living planets), this event will likely not take place. Where is this scenario examined GS?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its nice to see a fresh face and a different view point in this never ending phoenix argument. Thank you illadelph your view is valued. However i have not confused purpose with power. All my claims i have now backed up with scans or quotes with a reference to the issues they have come from. So it is not a case of me speculating and then coming to a conclusion. Im just presenting to the forum whats already there in the comics.""""""""""""""""""""""""The Phoenix Force may be the primal force of creation and renewed life after death, in other words, the tool the TOAA used to create all things and that he uses to restart the process after wiping the slate clean, but it does not mean that the TOAA could not create a being more powerful than it, or moreso, with a purpose or existence that is outside the bounds of its power.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Well this much is obvious. When have i ever stated the contrary? As the supreme being of course TOAA could do that. Phoenix is his creation aspect. You've left me very confused.
""""" Some beings, like the LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho, the Time Keepers and the Time Twisters, were drawn in ink. They have a purpose outside the confines or rules of simply 'creation'. LT safeguards everything the TOAA created (slip cover and security system for everything drawn with the Phoenix pencil)
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
True.LT does safeguard the multiverse Phoenix created i have not disputed his role. LT however is not a constant throughout the creation process that is where you are wrong. At the end of creation LT is shown to be one of the entities replaced and surpassed by an evolved humanity. This evolution and replacement of LT and the abstracts is is a signal to phoenix. It then consumes the multiverse
In X-Men Forever 6: Tomorrow begins Today the Stranger planned to speed up human evolution in order to collapse creation and emerge as the supreme being of the next reality using phoenix. Eternity freezes time in order to talk to Jean.He tells her that creation continually moves between life and death,order and chaos.The Phoenix is the resurrection force,the assurance of life after death.The Celestials have put in every race the potential to become greater than the abstract entities (LT was included in the comic as one of the beings affected by this process) and bring the creation to its end.Creation will plunge into Oblivion,but in time Creation will renew itself:it is a cyclical process,the natural order of things.
- The Abstract are reflections of the Universe.They can be substituted,and their slot occupied by others.Humanity has been said to have the potential to replace them,and in any case they wont last more than this version of the Universe.The Phoenix on the other hand is not an abstract,is a force.It is the very force of creation that keeps the process going on forever. Phoenix is the only constant in creation.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Using your line of logic GS, Anthromopomorpho should be the most powerful abstract because it is responsible for creating the other abstracts manifestation bodies and presides over the Manifestation Dimension, right? It's purpose is creation of the abstracts manifestations. Without that ability, the Abstracts would be without form.
Anthromopomorpho owns all abstracts. Without it they have no form.
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It seems you are the confused one Ill. No offence intended. That is not and never has been my line of logic i think perhaps you have misinterpreted. Show me where you believe that i have portrayed that to be my logic and i'll set you straight. The M bodies are only required so that the abstracts can manifest themselves as a physical body within reality. Anth is just a tool for the abstracts just as the Celestials are just a tool for Eternity. He certainly does not own the abstracts i.m.o not through the role he has.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""GS, the 'feat' you keep referring to of Phoenix holding a universe in her hands and altering it is really of no consequence. It was a nice visual, but not much more. LT can lock off or wipe out a universe or universes (plural) if his 3 minds deem it necessary in order to keep balance in creation, or he can alter it if that would be a better remedy. It's a matter of judgement. If anything, fixing that universe probably added to the imbalance in the life equation that Thanos referred to in "The End".
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Some people doubted that Phoenix was even beyond the likes of Galactus (despite the latest F4 handbook showing she/it is responsible for his creation) or Eternity. That scene helped to give people an idea of phoenixes standing. It is hardly inconsequential Ill. I have never once used this as a sole reason for why Phoenix is second only to TOAA ive just listed it as one of her feats so i fail to see your point here. LT may be able to do all of that but presumably unknown to you until now the Phoenix power has been shown in comic book form to be greater than LT, shown to be the only constant in creation. LT along with the other abstracts are all affected by the cycle of creation. Read Xmen Forever for more details. That point about the END was complete speculation i really dont know where that came from.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""I'm not sure whether or not LT has jurisdiction over the Phoenix Force, in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't unless the Phoenix Force were to act against it's purpose and cause an imbalance somehow, then LT would be there to slap it back in line, since that is his purpose. But, seeing as to how Phoenix both creates and destroys, LT wouldn't be necessary because that's within the bounds of Phoenix's purpose. Anything outside those bounds would equate to an LT brand cosmic chin check.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
He certainly could try anyway. At the end of the day LT is affected by the power of creation he is one of those surpassed and replaced by humanity he is affected by the cycle of creation he's one of its "victims"
As for your summary on their roles and positions. That is also not quite correct. Phoenix doesnt just do those things, Phoenix acts as a multiversal doctor, she/it maintains creation through avatars which perform microsurgery from inside reality. For example the M'kraan crystal incident, the sterilisation of earth from Sublime.
I havent confused purpose with power in the slightest.
Fanboyism to the extreme.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" I think there in lies our misunderstanding GS, or rather, difference of opinion. TOAA created all, Phoenix just happens to be the name of the power he used (parallel to the belief in our reality of God the creator and the Holy Spirit, the energy of life). Saying "Phoenix is responsible for creating the abstracts" makes it seem like it was a personal feat. TOAA created existence using a power which has been deemed "the Phoenix Force". The beings created also use "the Phoenix Force", if you think about it, because it's the base of all creation and in all things that exists.
The Phoenix force is the self-sustaining base element of existence in the Marvel Universe.
There are beings, like Anomaly (and LT, save a retcon I'm unaware of), that are constants throughout the multiverse, and survive these 'ends' (or better, 'remodellings'😉 of universes that the Phoenix Force brings about. When the 616 Universe gets torn down to build a new duplex with a pool, LT, Anomaly, the Time Twisters and their divergents the Time Keepers, and Anthromopomorpho will still exist. Abstracts like Eternity, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and the others..., not so much (Bye-bye Galactus. Here's a T-shirt.). They'll be replaced in the next cycle by new representative entities, just as their counterparts in alternate universes and realities will be replaced when the cycle comes to them.
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Phoenix as you rightly said is Gods creation tool. It makes, maintains and destroys creation. Phoenix is the sum and substance of all that is all matter life and energy in the multiverse however it is a force it is not an entity. It is just Gods creation tool. Special individuals are born across the multiverse with phoenix potential. The power to tap into Gods creation power in order to carry out his work in the multiverse. They are the phoenixes. The ultimate mutation, the ultimate potential. Jean as the phoenix of the white crown has a special relationship with the force and as stated is second only to TOAA with this power. It is the white crown phoenix (Jean) who does the creating and the destroying of creation as she said in Xmen The End: ""Phoenix is the perfect tool for jumstarting creation however to do this it needs a human touch""
Jean was talking of her role as Phoenix. Yes the Phoenix power is just gods creation power source however all of the work is done through avatars. The multiverse, the abstracts are all created from the phoenix power, everything made by Marvels God stems from his creation power, his/its phoenix power as you rightly said. The only element you missed out was the role of the white crown avatar.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""There are beings, like Anomaly (and LT, save a retcon I'm unaware of), that are constants throughout the multiverse, and survive these 'ends' (or better, 'remodellings'😉 of universes that the Phoenix Force brings about. When the 616 Universe gets torn down to build a new duplex with a pool, LT, Anomaly, the Time Twisters and their divergents the Time Keepers, and Anthromopomorpho will still exist. Abstracts like Eternity, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and the others..., not so much (Bye-bye Galactus. Here's a T-shirt.). They'll be replaced in the next cycle by new representative entities, just as their counterparts in alternate universes and realities will be replaced when the cycle comes to them.
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Well as ive already told you in Xmen Forever Eternity talks to Jean and tells her that the Phoenix is the natural beginning and end of a universe its just the natural order of things. The evolution of humanity is a signal for Phoenix to bring about this end because they surpass and replace the abstracts and LT as shown in the comic. LT is not a constant at the end of creation(the multiverse) as shown in the comic when phoenix ends everything and takes everything back to the white hot room where it all originated from LT is shown to be a victim of the process. I know what you're saying Ill and its well thought out. If it wasnt in comic book form you'd actually have a point but thats not the case.
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As for Phoenix's "doctor" role, LT performs the same functions.
When a universe becomes a cancer to the multiverse, LT can:
A) Cuts it out of the whole to protect the remainder.
B) Quarantines it off from the rest of creation.
C) Fix it.
I believe LT could have fixed the M'Krann crystal if that had been within the bounds of his purpose, but, it's one of the sole duties and purposes of the Phoenix Force, so that's who/what got the job done.
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Its just speculation whether LT could have done it or not. In A.O.A when Jean hadnt reached the ultimate potential yet due to lack of training where was LT to prevent the end of the multiverse brought about by the crystal? If bishop hadnt changed history then LT would have been out of a job. I could very well speculate that in the Secret Wars Thor could have braced the mountain just as well as the Hulk did but thats meaningless. We'll never know. At the end of the day in comic book form LT is seen as a victim of the creation process. Thats not debatable. What that suggests is that he a new LT is made at the beginning of the creation cycle.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""As far as in comics (back on topic), is this evolutionary step a multiversal or universal event? There are universes and realities within the Marvel Multiverse where humans do not exist, and others still where humans do exist, but the Celestials did not manipulate the genes of the species to create these various mutations that manifest in the 616 main Marvel universe, so I'm thinking it's more of a 616 universe exclusive event in which the humans will evolve to a state where they will replace the abstracts in the hierarchy, I don't think it's on a multiversal scale, meaning that in an alternate universe, like the one with the anti-Galactus being named Mystery (a 'female' abstract that brings life energy to dying planets rather than feeding on the life energy of living planets), this event will likely not take place. Where is this scenario examined GS?
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The fact that LT gets replaced suggests that its ultimately a multiversal event (each universe might not be at the same stage of evolution, so they might end at different times)
Eternity stated that this evolution is a natural part of a universes cycle.
There are many avatars of different species across the multiverse (as shown in New Xmen 154) which also supports the fact that its ultimately a multiversal event.
For info have a read of Xmen Forever 1 to 6 and New Xmen 128, and 147 to 154.
Originally posted by Maestro
Fanboyism to the extreme.
Instead of making snidey comments and then running away to your cesspit why dont you explain yourself like a man. Have you even bothered to properly read this post. Have you checked the references ive made? I dont believe you have, otherwise you wouldnt have made such a childish comment. It would be a case of fanboyism if i wasnt just referring to events and ideas straight out of the comics but i am. I can and have backed up my claims. Back under your bridge you troll.
Originally posted by long pig
But the PF has never shown to be capable of being able to "beat" LT as of right now, many trillion light years later, maybe, but not at this moment.We can't go by potential, otherwise every john doe mutant on the street is > Eternity because humans/mutants will one day take their place.
Originally posted by long pig
But the PF has never shown to be capable of being able to "beat" LT as of right now, many trillion light years later, maybe, but not at this moment.We can't go by potential, otherwise every john doe mutant on the street is > Eternity because humans/mutants will one day take their place.
Its the creation power of T.O.A.A a power second only to him itself. The power is used to begin, maintain and end creation. LT is a victim of this process as shown by Xmen Forever. Theres no change in the status of the power so i find your comment puzzling. As soon as the signal is received by Phoenix then all of creation goes down and LT with it as is clearly depicted.
Originally posted by ImmortalOne
The thing is... how could such vast reality-ENDING powers can be putten into a body of a female..... ??
Even Beyonder (half power) cannot put his omnipotence into a human form of his creation...And from what you have posted earlier, its clear that you are saying PF is stronger than Beyonder...
What you need to remember IO is that Jean was made to have this power. She's always been a phoenix from the moment she was born its in her genetic makeup. Its not like she has been posessed by an entity or she's just suddenly come into a huge amount of power. Its a part of her.
The pre retcon Beyonder was a sentient multiverse. He said in issue 196 of uncanny Xmen that out of all the beings he had come across she was the one who had the potential to become his equal. Bear in mind that Rachel was only a host for the power she has yet to evolve and become an avatar, a direct incarnation of phoenix as jean has. So perhaps thats what he was referring to.
Later on in uncanny xmen 203 the beyonder took back some power he had given to Rachel and as he did so he linked to Rachel and through her he got an insight into the true phoenix force and all it represented. It was too much for him and he fell to the ground humbled.
Plus you'd think the creation power of TOAA is pretty near unbeatable by anything but another god derived force wouldnt you?