Rune King Thor vs. Tyrant (normal)

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason.>>

you've said this a couple times. i'm curious what book makes this claim.

<<A fairly fine , one might say hair-splitting, theological point regarding the nature of Holy Comunion (I'm not a theologian, but I was raised by them) about which there have been thousands upon thousands of words of heated rhetoric about how The Other Side Has It All Wrong for the past 500 years or so.>>

😂

lam, man, you totally crack me up. i love your posts. you really should post more often. 😄

<<Whats that Cons Trans thing again ??>>

transubstantiation can be explained like this: gs is cool when talking about other characters, but when the PF is the topic that's a bit of a different animal. in this case, it's like the pf is called down by him, comes into him and actually CHANGES gs into a new substance which, for purposes of this example i will name the GS-FORCE (careful note to gs detractors - that is GS not BS because i am willing to admit that he has actually taught me a few things about the pf. and he usually debates in good faith with good arguments.)

consubstantiation can be viewed like this - imagine any fanboy (wolverine8888 or whoever you so choose). now, fanboy has no NEED to summon any force in a particular debate, because the fanboy COEXISTS with his character - the character is with him at all times wherever he goes.

all clear? 😉

😆 Its in Uncanny Xmen 137

🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
🙂

Youre so weird 😆

You have got me running all over the place today you b*stard

🙂 fishy fishy fishy 🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
🙂 fishy fishy fishy 🙂

Indeed. I wont stop though lol

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Indeed. I wont stop though lol

I hope not 😆

GS, all of that still doesn't prove Phoenix to be more powerful than LT. And you are still missing my point.

As has been shown many times, there are some situations that are outside of LT's jurisdiction. Stranger using the Phoenix Force to undo creation, which is the purpose of the Phoenix Force, is outside of LT's jurisdiction, seeing as to how the Phoenix Force is serving it's purpose (destruction of creation). LT has no say in the matter.

LT may not be a spoken 'avatar' of TOAA, in other words, the term "avatar" has not been used to describe the Tribunal, but his duty, his purpose (the word of the day 😉 ), is. LT represents TOAA's protection and authority, carrying out the TOAA's will within creation, just as this White Crown Phoenix you're so fond of and the other Phoenix's do.

LT and Jean, as well as all of creation, get their power from the same place:

TOAA.

Your point:

You still seem to be seeing the Phoenix force as a tool created by TOAA for a purpose. What im trying to get through to you is that its literally Gods creation power. It is not a seperate thing created. The White Crown Phoenix (Jean) is one with Gods power and does his will in creation.

is mute.

All things created are one with Phoenix and gain power from Phoenix, from TOAA, not just Jean, she just can control a lion's share of the same feast when necessary. You've stated yourself many times that the Phoenix Force, TOAA's power, is what creates and permeates Marvel existence. TOAA's power is the base of all creation, that's not in dispute. Jean acts on the TOAA's behalf using TOAA's power. LT acts on TOAA's behalf, using TOAA's power. The Phoenix Force (TOAA) is what all things created draw power from. The only difference being the roles of the LT (representative of TOAA in Creation) and of the Phoenix Avatar (Representative of TOAA in Creation). LT is dependent on TOAA creating in order for him to serve his role as Protector of Creation. TOAA does not need to protect creation until he creates creation, and he doesn't need to protect creation when he chooses to use his power to destroy creation. If TOAA's power is used to undo creation (THOTU, Phoenix), it's not LT's purpose to stop it because that's the natural order and purpose of the power. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of the purpose superceding LT's jurisdiction, just as LT was unable to act against the Time Twisters, the beings created to bring about the end of all time, from ending time. They were fulfilling their purpose, and as such, LT had no grounds to stop them.

The Phoenix Force (TOAA) is the power supply of both Phoenix and Living Tribunal. Phoenix simply carries out the role of creator and destroyer, while Tribunal carries out the role of protector and disciplinarian. They have complimentary roles, with LT's role being dependent on Phoenix.
The father (LT) can't watch over and discipline the children (creation) until the [/B]mother[/B] (Phoenix) gives birth (creates), or if the mother (Phoenix) should choose to abort (destroy creation).

Without conception, the role of the father is not necessary.

It's the natural order.

[Please note that this does not mean that LT has to sleep with Phoenix in order to create. I'm speaking figuratively. I know that analogy probably just opened up a large can of "pro-life" and "gay rights activists" worms. That was not my intention, I was just providing a parallel for comparison.]

Uncanny #137? The Dark Phoenix Saga?

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""GS, all of that still doesn't prove Phoenix to be more powerful than LT. And you are still missing my point.

As has been shown many times, there are some situations that are outside of LT's jurisdiction. Stranger using the Phoenix Force to undo creation, which is the purpose of the Phoenix Force, is outside of LT's jurisdiction, seeing as to how the Phoenix Force is serving it's purpose (destruction of creation). LT has no say in the matter.

LT may not be a spoken 'avatar' of TOAA, in other words, the term "avatar" has not been used to describe the Tribunal, but his duty, his purpose (the word of the day ), is. LT represents TOAA's protection and authority, carrying out the TOAA's will within creation, just as this White Crown Phoenix you're so fond of and the other Phoenix's do.

LT and Jean, as well as all of creation, get their power from the same place:

TOAA.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

The Stranger using the Phoenix Force to overthrow the other abstracts and end reality to leave himself as the supreme being of the next creation is not the Phoenix fullfilling its purpose. Everything is supposed to be absorbed into the white hot room, Stranger is not supposed to be the supreme being , there is an order to everything Eternity said that the Strangers plans upset this natural order. That is why LT was shown as one of the beings very much concerned with the Strangers actions. He along with the other abstracts conversed and Eternity appeared to Jean and told her that the Stranger must be stopped at all costs. Lt got involved in the matter and he was concerned because the Phoenix power would mean the end of creation. Read the comic. Dont argue based merely on what im saying. Xmen Forever 1 to 6. Your point is countered.

Lt's purpose does not mark him out as an avatar. Ill that is pure speculation and there is no evidence backing that up whatsoever. The Force is the power source of TOAA while Jean is an avatar a direct incarnation of the force within our plane of existence, carrying out the will of god. LT is a being created by God to serve him. Theres a difference.

Their power may come from the same source however Jean as the White Crown Phoenix has a special relationship with the power. She has reached the stage of ultimate mutation which makes her one with it genetically.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""All things created are one with Phoenix and gain power from Phoenix, from TOAA, not just Jean, she just can control a lion's share of the same feast when necessary. You've stated yourself many times that the Phoenix Force, TOAA's power, is what creates and permeates Marvel existence. TOAA's power is the base of all creation, that's not in dispute. Jean acts on the TOAA's behalf using TOAA's power. LT acts on TOAA's behalf, using TOAA's power. The Phoenix Force (TOAA) is what all things created draw power from. The only difference being the roles of the LT (representative of TOAA in Creation) and of the Phoenix Avatar (Representative of TOAA in Creation). LT is dependent on TOAA creating in order for him to serve his role as Protector of Creation. TOAA does not need to protect creation until he creates creation, and he doesn't need to protect creation when he chooses to use his power to destroy creation. If TOAA's power is used to undo creation (THOTU, Phoenix), it's not LT's purpose to stop it because that's the natural order and purpose of the power. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of the purpose superceding LT's jurisdiction, just as LT was unable to act against the Time Twisters, the beings created to bring about the end of all time, from ending time. They were fulfilling their purpose, and as such, LT had no grounds to stop them.

The Phoenix Force (TOAA) is the power supply of both Phoenix and Living Tribunal. Phoenix simply carries out the role of creator and destroyer, while Tribunal carries out the role of protector and disciplinarian. They have complimentary roles, with LT's role being dependent on Phoenix.
The father (LT) can't watch over and discipline the children (creation) until the [/B]mother[/B] (Phoenix) gives birth (creates), or if the mother (Phoenix) should choose to abort (destroy creation).

Without conception, the role of the father is not necessary.

It's the natural order.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

I liked this last part of your post. It was well thought out and it all stands to reason more or less. Just remember that LT did get involved in Xmen Forever he along with the abstracts interferred to safeguard creation from the Stranger unleashing the Phoenix power. A scene depicting what would happen if the power was unleashed was shown and LT was humbled and all of reality had been brought to a standstill with the Stranger ruling above all. That is when Eternity spoke to Jean. Apart from that one thing that was a good post.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Uncanny #137? The Dark Phoenix Saga?

Indeed what the hell is GS talking about 😆 I think he is lost now 🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Indeed what the hell is GS talking about 😆 I think he is lost now 🙂

You know what bit im talking about Whirly. The Watcher says it at the beginning of the issue

I think Phoenix and the LT are both hilarious 🙂

and need Jesse to tell them where to go 🙂

hmm, what thread is this again . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, what thread is this again . . .

Something to do with a Thor upgrade and some knock off Galactus I believe Leo🙂

- 😕 Wait a minute - why is Phoenix in here with the LT? Oh I get it the are Omniversal 😆

Just remember that LT did get involved in Xmen Forever he along with the abstracts interferred to safeguard creation from the Stranger unleashing the Phoenix power. A scene depicting what would happen if the power was unleashed was shown and LT was humbled and all of reality had been brought to a standstill with the Stranger ruling above all.

Exactly, the Stranger attempted to use the Phoenix Force to wipe out creation and lord over it, just as Akhenaton/Thanos used THOTU.

LT can't stop TOAA's power from carrying out it's purpose.

In this instance, even though the Stranger was the one attempting to wield it, the Phoenix Force itself was still fulfilling it's purpose (end creation, then re-create creation). The Stranger was simply attempting to use it to re-create creation in his own image, with hisself being the supreme being. The Phoenix was still fulfilling it's duty as power of creation/destruction, which LT has no say in, it was simply that the Stranger attempted to bring this event about ahead of schedule to meet his own ends.

And guess what, by bringing about the end of creation, LT's purpose as protector of creation is obsolete, so he's not necessary anymore.

This story still does not prove Phoenix's power, just it's purpose.

And, in all honesty, it's a very weak (and played out) story line.

This story is basically Zero Hour, when Hal Jordan tries to use his the Oan powers to manipulate deformities in the fabric of the DCU left behind by the Crisis to re-start creation (destroy and cause a new big bang) in his own image and save Coast City. Just remove Hal Jordan manipulating the Crisis Energies, and insert the Stranger manipulating the Phoenix Force. It's still just a powerful character trying to use a loophole in the fabric of creation to become the supreme being by manipulating the base elements of creation. Nothing spectacular at all.

Stranger tried to bring about the restart of creation by Phoenix with himself in the driver's seat. LT can't stop the Phoenix from fulfilling it's purpose as destroyer and creator, so they had to defer to the Phoenix itself to correct the situation.

That proves Phoenix's power how?

All that proves is that you can't use a screwdriver to remove nails. You need the right tools for the job.

Phoenix was the right tool.

You know what bit im talking about Whirly. The Watcher says it at the beginning of the issue

You're quoting The Watcher as part of your argument???

You'd better check your sources. The Watcher's a bald-headed contradiction dispenser, a victim of the "Power Retcon"; another aspect of this cycle of creation Phoenix brings about...

Originally posted by illadelph12
Exactly, the Stranger attempted to use the Phoenix Force to wipe out creation and lord over it, just as Akhenaton/Thanos used THOTU.

LT [B]can't stop TOAA's power from carrying out it's purpose.

In this instance, even though the Stranger was the one attempting to wield it, the Phoenix Force itself was still fulfilling it's purpose (end creation, then re-create creation). The Stranger was simply attempting to use it to re-create creation in his own image, with hisself being the supreme being. The Phoenix was still fulfilling it's duty as power of creation/destruction, which LT has no say in, it was simply that the Stranger attempted to bring this event about ahead of schedule to meet his own ends.

And guess what, by bringing about the end of creation, LT's purpose as protector of creation is obsolete, so he's not necessary anymore.

This story still does not prove Phoenix's power, just it's purpose.

And, in all honesty, it's a very weak (and played out) story line.

This story is basically Zero Hour, when Hal Jordan tries to use his the Oan powers to manipulate deformities in the fabric of the DCU left behind by the Crisis to re-start creation (destroy and cause a new big bang) in his own image and save Coast City. Just remove Hal Jordan manipulating the Crisis Energies, and insert the Stranger manipulating the Phoenix Force. It's still just a powerful character trying to use a loophole in the fabric of creation to become the supreme being by manipulating the base elements of creation. Nothing spectacular at all.

Stranger tried to bring about the restart of creation by Phoenix with himself in the driver's seat. LT can't stop the Phoenix from fulfilling it's purpose as destroyer and creator, so they had to defer to the Phoenix itself to correct the situation.

That proves Phoenix's power how?

All that proves is that you can't use a screwdriver to remove nails. You need the right tools for the job.

Phoenix was the right tool. [/B]

The Phoenixes purpose is to maintain the cycle of creation. Through the power the multiverse is created maintained and then destroyed. In the end everything is absorbed back into the white hot room, its point of origin. Phoenix acts to steer evolution across the multiverse towards the realization of the Omega Point in the distant future,and they bring ever-new Universes to the eternal immortality of the White Hot Room,Big Bang after Big Crunch after Big Bang...forever. All being sand universe must be downloaded into the hyperuniversal heaven of the Omega Point/White Hot Room. The Stranger was risking this process upsetting the natural order of things phoenix avatars and LT seek to retain. This would have been an abuse of the phoenix power. Evolution would have been perverted. It was in LT's jurisdiction he did get involved a plan was made to get through to Jean before it was too late.

By tapping into the Phoenix power to bring about the end of creation as Eternity said the Stranger is upsetting the natural order hence the reason LT got involved. Thats the point you seem to be missing. Before this could happen the abstracts and LT conversed and Eternity told Jean to stop this. The fact that LT got involved shows that it is under his jurisdiction. He was clearly shown as one of those involved with stopping Stranger and he was later shown to be one of those who would be humbled by the power. Thats all that really matters You really need to read the comic Ill.

<<I think Phoenix and the LT are both hilarious
and need Jesse to tell them where to go>>

😂

and perhaps someone should tell THESE 2 where to go? namely - the phoenix v lt thread!

😄

Leo buddy 🙂Not even the living trib can tell GS to stop blah blah blah about Phoenix, Illadelph is reasonable usually, as is GS except for his bizarre ginger fetish 😖hifty:

Where the Tyrant stands a chance is if he could use his world-energy drain process on Asgaurd itself. If sucessful, much of Thor's Odinpower would be lost. It's still possable that the secrets of the Runes might allow Thor to somehow undermine the Tyrant without matching power against power, but I think draining Asgaurd (if he could pull it off) is the Tyrant's best shot at a win.

I also wonder: by smashing the Norns' loom, has Thor joined the ranks of beings, like Warlock and Thanos, for whom the dominions of the various space gods and abstracts are largely irrelevant?