Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Leo buddy 🙂Not even the living trib can tell GS to stop blah blah blah about Phoenix, Illadelph is reasonable usually, as is GS except for his bizarre ginger fetish 😖hifty:
Illadelph is being reasonable he just hasnt read the series so his argument is being formed from an incomplete picture. If it wasnt for the comic then Ill would be right and i would agree with him.
The Stranger was risking this process upsetting the natural order of things phoenix avatars and LT seek to retain. This would have been an abuse of the phoenix power. Evolution would have been perverted. It was in LT's jurisdiction he did get involved a plan was made to get through to Jean before it was too late.By tapping into the Phoenix power to bring about the end of creation as Eternity said the Stranger is upsetting the natural order hence the reason LT got involved. Thats the point you seem to be missing. Before this could happen the abstracts and LT conversed and Eternity told Jean to stop this. The fact that LT got involved shows that it is under his jurisdiction. He was clearly shown as one of those involved with stopping Stranger and he was later shown to be one of those who would be humbled by the power.
Yes, Stranger was upsetting the natural process, well, time table, by bringing about the end before it was scheduled to occur, but LT has no jurisdiction over the means in which he was attempting to go about doing it (though it's without saying that this is a poorly thought out plot device. Why the abstracts couldn't see what the Stranger was up to, or couldn't stop The Stranger beforehand, when some of these beings are omniscient and omnipresent, is beyond me).
The Phoenix's purpose is to destroy existence, just as the Time Twister's purpose is to usher in the end of time. So long as a thread in the tapestry of existence is fulfilling it's purpose (I like that tapestry line), LT can't step in to mend it. The fact that Phoenix was fulfilling it's purpose ahead of schedule doesn't change the fact that it was doing what the Phoenix is meant to do, destroying creation to re-create it anew (same scenario occurred with the Time Twisters).
[quote]It was in LT's jurisdiction he did get involved a plan was made to get through to Jean before it was too late.[quote]
The abstracts simply warned the Phoenix Avatar that the Stranger was plotting to use the Phoenix Force's (TOAA's) power for a scheme so it could act accordingly. You say this yourself. You're embellishing this event far too much. It doesn't prove Phoenix's power, it just shows that in this instance Phoenix's Avatar acting on it's behalf was the only option for correcting the situation.
The power "humbling" LT is a bad description, we've already come to terms with the fact that if there is no creation there is no purpose for LT (TOAA's protection of creation), and the power that ends creation is Phoenix (TOAA). Stranger using Phoenix to wipe out creation would have nullified the necessity for LT, rendering his purpose mute. That's why he's depicted as being absorbed into the White Hot Room.
Why would TOAA protect creation from TOAA's own power when TOAA's power is attempting to destroy creation as it's meant to do?
If TOAA chooses to wipe out creation, TOAA no longer has reason or need to protect creation, so he reclaims his protection aspect, Living Tribunal, until the time arises for TOAA to protect creation again, where he re-installs LT.
If you don't have a car, you don't need Onstar, Lo-Jack, or a security system (or spinner rims 😉 ).
If you don't have creation, you don't need to protect creation.
"""""""""""""""""""""" Yes, Stranger was upsetting the natural process, well, time table, by bringing about the end before it was scheduled to occur, but LT has no jurisdiction over the means in which he was attempting to go about doing it (though it's without saying that this is a poorly thought out plot device. Why the abstracts couldn't see what the Stranger was up to, or couldn't stop The Stranger beforehand, when some of these beings are omniscient and omnipresent, is beyond me).
The Phoenix's purpose is to destroy existence, just as the Time Twister's purpose is to usher in the end of time. So long as a thread in the tapestry of existence is fulfilling it's purpose (I like that tapestry line), LT can't step in to mend it. The fact that Phoenix was fulfilling it's purpose ahead of schedule doesn't change the fact that it was doing what the Phoenix is meant to do, destroying creation to re-create it anew (same scenario occurred with the Time Twisters).
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What you dont seem to be able to grasp is the fact that Stranger wasnt just speeding up the evolution process through Phoenix he was also preventing his absorption into the white hot room therefore abusing the phoenix power , preventing it from fulfilling its purpose. Stranger would have been upsetting the natural order, the balance that LT seeks to keep across the multiverse. This was very much in LT's jurisdiction. LT only gets involved when the natural order is pereverted or can potentially be perverted. He didnt get involved in the IG saga because that was just a case of survival of the fittest natural selection. LT got involved with the HOTU because the power was on a greater scale and it upset the natural order and could go on to have a multiversal effect. Strangers was planning to abuse the power to speed up evolution to bring about the end of creation whilst preventing his absorption so he could lord it over the new abstracts and LT in the new creation. That is a misuse of the power and its use would have about an imbalance in the cosmic forces something LT has jurisdiction over. Which i presume is why he was very much involved. The comic then depcted that if Stranger had this power he would be able to humble LT and all of the other abstracts hi sformer masters. Hence the scan of LT and the others bowing before the Stranger with the phoenix power.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""The abstracts simply warned the Phoenix Avatar that the Stranger was plotting to use the Phoenix Force's (TOAA's) power for a scheme so it could act accordingly. You say this yourself. You're embellishing this event far too much. It doesn't prove Phoenix's power, it just shows that in this instance Phoenix's Avatar acting on it's behalf was the only option for correcting the situation.
The power "humbling" LT is a bad description, we've already come to terms with the fact that if there is no creation there is no purpose for LT (TOAA's protection of creation), and the power that ends creation is Phoenix (TOAA). Stranger using Phoenix to wipe out creation would have nullified the necessity for LT, rendering his purpose mute. That's why he's depicted as being absorbed into the White Hot Room.
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LT and the abstracts warned Jean to prevent Stranger from accessing the force through her because if he did then they wouldnt be able to stop him from ending all of creation and remaking it with him as their master in a new creation. That is why the term humbling is just fine. Its not just a case of Stranger speeding up the process and LT being easily absorbed because he's out of a job. The avatars have a reason for wielding the power, they are the tools not the force. Jean must steer evolution towards the convergence with the omega point. Everything must end and be downloaded. That is TOAA's will. Stranger was planning to upset thi sprocess he wasnt merely speeding it up. LT got involved to prevent Strangers plans however if his plans came to fruition LT would have had no power over Stranger tapping into the Phoenix Force as depicted in the comic. He would have ruled in the new creation as the new supreme being of creation.
Rune King Thor or Tyrant
Rune King Thor;
though original Tyrant with his full power reserves (biospheric energy of all planets in the universe) might be able to take him. Wouldn't that really be 'normal' Tyrant, though, not the depowered version?
But anyway, now that that is out of the way...
GS, I'm not misunderstanding, you're embellishing. Stranger was trying to gain the position of Creator and Destroyer by procuring the Phoenix Force (TOAA's power) for himself, through Jean. Basically, he was trying to replace TOAA, by usurping TOAA's power over the creation cycle, and in doing so, power over the abstracts. By obtaining (or becoming one with) the Phoenix Force, Stranger would have the ability to exist outide of the cycle of creation, just as the Phoenix does (though he's not supposed to), and lord over all of creation that he'd shape in his image like a dictator.
LT and the abstracts warned Jean to prevent Stranger from accessing the force through her because if he did then they wouldnt be able to stop him from ending all of creation and remaking it with him as their master in a new creation.
Stranger was planning to upset thi sprocess he wasnt merely speeding it up. LT got involved to prevent Strangers plans however if his plans came to fruition LT would have had no power over Stranger tapping into the Phoenix Force as depicted in the comic.
It's friggin' Zero Hour with Marvel stand-ins and terminology.
What's not to understand?
It doesn't change the fact that by Stranger using Phoenix to end creation and re-create it, the Phoenix Force is still suiting it's purpose (creator/destroyer/re-creator), it's just being wielded by someone who's not supposed to wield it and would use it to serve his own means.
It doesn't display Phoenix's power, it displays what could happen should someone pervert the purpose of Phoenix. Stranger would have power over creation, destruction, and re-assembly of said creation. LT, as protector of creation, would basically be at a loss because Stranger, through Phoenix (TOAA's power) is out of his jurisdiction. It's the creation/destruction power of God. Lt's the protection power of God. If TOAA's power moves to destroy, it obviously doesn't want to protect, so LT isn't needed. If TOAA's power creates something perverted, LT's comissioned duty is to protect that creation. It's not his place to disapprove, he has his duty to protect. TOAA must protect whatever TOAA creates. Whatever Stranger chooses to do, LT has no say in the matter, his purpose is to protect it. Through Phoenix, Stranger could create a giant mutiversal jar of sewage as the substance of the Marvel multiverse with floating turds as the universes within it and the abstracts as a bunch of South Park characters, and LT would have to protect it because that's his purpose; he's TOAA's protection of things created by TOAA's power.
By the way, this story has gaping plot holes in it:
Why didn't the abstracts or some other beings (like Warlock, etc.) that posess clairvoyance foresee this coming and move against Stranger beforehand?
Originally posted by illadelph12
Rune King Thor;though original Tyrant with his full power reserves (biospheric energy of all planets in the universe) might be able to take him. Wouldn't that really be 'normal' Tyrant, though, not the depowered version?
But anyway, now that that is out of the way...
GS, I'm not misunderstanding, you're embellishing. Stranger was trying to gain the position of Creator and Destroyer by procuring the Phoenix Force (TOAA's power) for himself, through Jean. Basically, he was trying to replace TOAA, by usurping TOAA's power over the creation cycle, and in doing so, power over the abstracts. By obtaining (or becoming one with) the Phoenix Force, Stranger would have the ability to exist outide of the cycle of creation, just as the Phoenix does (though he's not supposed to), and lord over all of creation that he'd shape in his image like a dictator.
It's friggin' [B]Zero Hour
with Marvel stand-ins and terminology.What's not to understand?
It doesn't change the fact that by Stranger using Phoenix to end creation and re-create it, the Phoenix Force is still suiting it's purpose (creator/destroyer/re-creator), it's just being wielded by someone who's not supposed to wield it and would use it to serve his own means.
It doesn't display Phoenix's power, it displays what could happen should someone pervert the purpose of Phoenix. Stranger would have power over creation, destruction, and re-assembly of said creation. LT, as protector of creation, would basically be at a loss because Stranger, through Phoenix (TOAA's power) is out of his jurisdiction. It's the creation/destruction power of God. Lt's the protection power of God. If TOAA's power moves to destroy, it obviously doesn't want to protect, so LT isn't needed. If TOAA's power creates something perverted, LT's comissioned duty is to protect that creation. It's not his place to disapprove, he has his duty to protect. TOAA must protect whatever TOAA creates. Whatever Stranger chooses to do, LT has no say in the matter, his purpose is to protect it. Through Phoenix, Stranger could create a giant mutiversal jar of sewage as the substance of the Marvel multiverse with floating turds as the universes within it and the abstracts as a bunch of South Park characters, and LT would have to protect it because that's his purpose; he's TOAA's protection of things created by TOAA's power.
By the way, this story has gaping plot holes in it:
Why didn't the abstracts or some other beings (like Warlock, etc.) that posess clairvoyance foresee this coming and move against Stranger beforehand? [/B]
I disagree with that totally. The Stranger would have been using the phoenix power for something other than what its avatars are commissioned to do with it. By your own words this would result in LT getting involved, which he did. LT wouldnt be involved in the planning if it wasnt within his jurisdiction. Strangers plans didnt just involve creating and destroying. They involved upsetting the cycle of creation.
Thanos having the IG and usurping Eternitys role was part of the natural order, it was just survival of the fittest within the boundaries of creation therefore LT wouldnt even take part in the abstracts schemes he dismissed it and said he wouldnt help and he left. Thats the difference thats what you need to understand. Im not embellishing anything. It was within his jurisdiction because it was against TOAA's will. It wasnt in accordance to what the avatars strive to do. What they are told to do by TOAA.
Your scenario would work out fine if what the Stranger was doing went along with the creation process and therefore TOAA's will but it doesnt. What your basically saying is that LT wouldnt/couldnt move against Stranger with the Phoenix Force because its TOAA's power and the avatars are meant to use this power to create and destroy, therefore LT couldnt get involved right? Thats what you're saying isnt it? Im sorry but thats ridiculous.
Strangers use of the power would be against TOAA's will, he would be placing himself outside of the cycle of creation which virtually all beings are a part of. He would be avoiding absorption and then lording it over creation upsetting the balance the avatars and Lt strive to retain. If its not in line with TOAA's will, then LT would get involved its within his jurisdiction and he did get involved. He talked with the others and discussed a plan just like he did when he got involved when Thanos got THOTU. LT had no problem moving against him.