Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Instead of making snidey comments and then running away to your cesspit why dont you explain yourself like a man. Have you even bothered to properly read this post. Have you checked the references ive made? I dont believe you have, otherwise you wouldnt have made such a childish comment. It would be a case of fanboyism if i wasnt just referring to events and ideas straight out of the comics but i am. I can and have backed up my claims. Back under your bridge you troll.
I have read all your comments and theories about the phoenix force, yet I have still not seen any proof from you that the phoenix force is above LT. You can come up with your own explanations about how phoenix force is above LT or whatever but it isn't backed up by any substantial proof that has been taken from any marvel sources that she's above. Once you actually get some reliable sources post them, then all the people who disagree with you, including me may actually take notice, until then carry on posting your own ideas.
Oh and replying with those remarks just backs up the fact that your a fanboy, if you wasn't a fanboy you wouldn't have come out with such reply to help defend your beloved phoenix. I'm truly looking forward to your 'Phoenix vs TOAA' post in the future.
Originally posted by Maestro
I have read all your comments and theories about the phoenix force, yet I have still not seen any proof from you that the phoenix force is above LT. You can come up with your own explanations about how phoenix force is above LT or whatever but it isn't backed up by any substantial proof that has been taken from any marvel sources that she's above. Once you actually get some reliable sources post them, then all the people who disagree with you, including me may actually take notice, until then carry on posting your own ideas.Oh and replying with those remarks just backs up the fact that your a fanboy, if you wasn't a fanboy you wouldn't have come out with such reply to help defend your beloved phoenix. I'm truly looking forward to your 'Phoenix vs TOAA' post in the future.
You silly boy if you'd actually properly read this thread you would see why ultimately Phoenix is higher up on the hierarchy. Ive listed references in the past ive even posted scans which back up my claims. That is the reason the majority of people now accept my claims. The only people who disagree are those who havent seen them or havent bothered to read the threads properly. I dont need to go out of my way to convince one individual, especially when they are as rude and insignificant as yourself. You want proof, read this thread again, make note of the references ive kindly listed and then check them out.
Which is more infinite, the points on a line or the points on a sphere? There are soooooo many contradictory stories over the years that there's really no way to reconcile them short of someone writing an "Avengers Forever"-type story to resolve the conflicts. Who ya gonna believe, Thanos Quest, Endsong, Dr. Strange, Captain Marvel, Fantastic Four? These books have all given us mutually incompatable cosmologies. GS obviously considers X-Men to be the athorative text, but that's a fairly arbitrary choice to make. We can no more sort this out than we can count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Originally posted by joesha28
Firstly Phoenix should not be there. Regular Thor could match her. She was lucky to stalemate the big G. Secondly HOTU, any tom dick harry with that could be powerful cos HOTU is power of TOAA. I'll put Galactus higher with Rune Thor on par or close.
Actully:
1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. Phoenix
4. LT
5. IG
6. Eternity
7/8/9. Infinity/Death/Oblivion (close enough to equal...)
10. Possibly Exitar and the higher Celestial
Here's my main problem with your whole theory GS:
You claim that Phoenix is the only constant (which is feasible as the Phoenix Force is TOAA's power), and that as universes are destroyed in their natural order, LT (who is not a true abstract, but was created by TOAA specifically with the sole purpose of being the caretaker of all creation) and the other 'abstracts' are destroyed and replaced, but LT himself has wiped out and/or quarantined universes, and was there before and after the destruction of universes brought about by the Phoenix (the end of Galan's [Galactus's] home universe before he ascended to become an abstract in the then newly formed 616 universe). This cycle is on a successive universal process. You yourself stated that the Phoenix brings about the cleansing and rebirth of a universe before the inhabitants reach the evolutionary step at which they would replace the abstracts. You said:
The evolution of humanity is a signal for Phoenix to bring about this end because they surpass and replace the abstracts and LT as shown in the comic. LT is not a constant at the end of creation(the multiverse) as shown in the comic when phoenix ends everything and takes everything back to the white hot room where it all originated from LT is shown to be a victim of the process.
It's also been shown that this universal 'evolution' is a gradual process, and not all universes within the multiverse reach this state of 'cleansing' at the same point. The multiverse's sum always exists, it's parts are simply cleaned and realligned by the Phoenix. Some universes (like Galactus's home universe) have already come and gone in this process, and LT, Anomaly, Anthromopomorpho and the Time Twisters/Time Keepers were there before it (well, not the Time Keepers and Time Twisters; they were created at the end of all time to usher in the end of all time) and still there afterwards, though the other 'abstracts' cease to exist. Other untold universes have reached this event as well more than likely. Each individual universe has it's own progressive evolutionary term and point where the Phoenix will step in to enact Armageddon and restart it's process, you've hammered home that point with quotes directly from the text, even quoting the conversation between Eternity and Jean when he says that it's the natural order for each individual universe.
Well as ive already told you in Xmen Forever Eternity talks to Jean and tells her that the Phoenix is the natural beginning and end of a universe its just the natural order of things.
It's simple deductive reasoning that LT survives this process because he already has[B] previously, surviving the destructions of prior universes brought about by Phoenix (Like Galan's, and unknown others).
Sometimes an illustration is just an illustration.
That picture of the Phoenix taking all 616 abstracts into the white hot room does not mean it's a multiversal event. The evolution of the 616 universe does not mean that all universes within creation will meet the cleansing process at the same point. That is simply your interpretation. In the Marvel Multiverse universes are constantly coming into creation and being cleansed in the life cycle, and LT's been there since the beginning, as the TOAA intended. I mean, you said yourself:
Plus you'd think the creation power of TOAA is pretty near unbeatable by anything but another god derived force wouldnt you?
What do you consider the LT?
Is he not a 'God derived force'? I know he doesn't have a fancy name like "The Phoenix Force", but he is the commissioned overseer, judge, jury, and executioner of all creation in the Marvel Multiverse, designated by the TOAA itself. That has to count for something. He was given that role and power exclusively by TOAA. Whether or not Phoenix was used to create LT is immaterial due to the fact that technically Phoenix is used in all of TOAA's acts of creation, 'Phoenix' is the surname of this power. What is important, moreso, is TOAA's [B]purpose of/for that creation. Who's to say that TOAA couldn't use the Phoenix (creation power) to create something immune to the Phoenix (destruction power)? TOAA can't create absolutes? Seems like a paradox, doesn't it? But when you have things like the Goblin Force and Beyonders floating around out there, who's to say?
It's all in the interpretation.
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It's simple deductive reasoning that LT survives this process because he already has[B] previously, surviving the destructions of prior universes brought about by Phoenix (Like Galan's, and unknown others).
Sometimes an illustration is just an illustration.
That picture of the Phoenix taking all 616 abstracts into the white hot room does not mean it's a multiversal event. The evolution of the 616 universe does not mean that all universes within creation will meet the cleansing process at the same point. That is simply your interpretation. In the Marvel Multiverse universes are constantly coming into creation and being cleansed in the life cycle, and LT's been there since the beginning, as the TOAA intended. I mean, you said yourself:
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You're not quite understanding Ill. I used the word "ultimately" for a reason when talking about this before. Of course LT will survive the destruction of a universe, but with the destruction of a multiverse LT is going to be out of a job so at the end of it it makes sense that he was depicted as one of the victims of the creation process. It wasnt once LT was depicted it was a few times in the series. I said that ultimately LT ids a victim of the process for that reason. The reason its a multiversal event is because:
Eternity said its part of a universe life cycle to be created and ended by Phoenix
LT is depicted as a victim
In New Xmen #154 the newly evolved from across the multiverse are shown in the white hot room. We know that the only truly evolved in the 616 reality is Jean and Quentin Quire.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Is he not a 'God derived force'? I know he doesn't have a fancy name like "The Phoenix Force", but he is the commissioned overseer, judge, jury, and executioner of all creation in the Marvel Multiverse, designated by the TOAA itself. That has to count for something. He was given that role and power exclusively by TOAA. Whether or not Phoenix was used to create LT is immaterial due to the fact that technically Phoenix is used in all of TOAA's acts of creation, 'Phoenix' is the surname of this power. What is important, moreso, is TOAA's [B]purpose of/for that creation. Who's to say that TOAA couldn't use the Phoenix (creation power) to create something immune to the Phoenix (destruction power)? TOAA can't create absolutes? Seems like a paradox, doesn't it? But when you have things like the Goblin Force and Beyonders floating around out there, who's to say?
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LT is a being created by God, Phoenix is the name for gods creation power, the power creation is made from, is sustained by. Thats the difference. You're missing the point, the way you're talking i slike ive said Phoenix is a match for TOAA. Of course it could create something which could defeat The White Crown Phoenix but whats your point? LT is shown as a victim of the process in comic book form and thats all we've got to go by. The only time their power or status has been compared directly and LT comes up short.
LT is shown as a victim of the process in comic book form and thats all we've got to go by. The only time their power or status has been compared directly and LT comes up short.
Which, again, brings me back to my point of confusing power with purpose. I'm not missing the point. You said:
LT is a being created by God, Phoenix is the name for gods creation power, the power creation is made from, is sustained by. Thats the difference. You're missing the point, the way you're talking i slike ive said Phoenix is a match for TOAA. Of course it could create something which could defeat The White Crown Phoenix but whats your point? LT is shown as a victim of the process in comic book form and thats all we've got to go by. The only time their power or status has been compared directly and LT comes up short.
The fact that TOAA's power to create and destroy and bring about the Multiversal Life Cycle 'overpowers' LT is immaterial. It does not disprove LT's power, it simply means that when there is no multiverse, there is no reason or purpose for LT to exist because he has no duty, so TOAA reclaims his substance. Just as if TOAA chose not to create and simply exist independently, there would be no purpose for the Phoenix Force (power of creation and destruction) to exist. It's not an example of Phoenix's power, it's simply a display of it enacting it's purpose. I can use a garbage can to dispose of a nuclear warhead, it doesn't make the garbage can more powerful, it simply means the garbage can's purpose is to collect things that are disposed of.
Purpose doesn't equal power.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Which, again, brings me back to my point of confusing power with purpose. I'm not missing the point. You said:The fact that TOAA's power to create and destroy and bring about the Multiversal Life Cycle 'overpowers' LT is immaterial. It does not disprove LT's power, it simply means that when there is no multiverse, there is no reason or purpose for LT to exist because he has no duty, so TOAA reclaims his substance. Just as if TOAA chose not to create and simply exist independently, there would be no purpose for the Phoenix Force (power of creation and destruction) to exist. It's not an example of Phoenix's power, it's simply a display of it enacting it's purpose. I can use a garbage can to dispose of a nuclear warhead, it doesn't make the garbage can more powerful, it simply means the garbage can's purpose is to collect things that are disposed of.
Purpose doesn't equal power.
Purpose doesnt equal power however the phoenix power isnt in doubt. Phoenix has had better feats than LT and on top of that we know Phoenix is higher status than LT and that while Phoenix is always of use and importance to existence LT is at times disposable and re-absorbed by the power which spawned him.
Purpose doesnt equal power however the phoenix power isnt in doubt. Phoenix has had better feats than LT and on top of that we know Phoenix is higher status than LT and that while Phoenix is always of use and importance to existence LT is at times disposable and re-absorbed by the power which spawned him.
LT's power isn't in doubt either.
So long as there's a multiverse, LT will watch over it. When the time comes and TOAA uses the Phoenix to reset creation, a new creation will come, and if TOAA sees fit, which more than like he will, he'll re-install his security system:
the Living Tribunal.
You don't need protection if there's nothing to protect.
It's very simple. The fact that TOAA always has his power of creation (Phoenix) is simply a matter that the TOAA always exists, it's not a display of Phoenix's importance. TOAA could simply choose not to create and hang Phoenix on the shelf, just as it can end creation and not need LT to protect it.
Phoenix's 'feats' aren't feats, it's simply the power of God enacting it's purpose. That 'feat' of Jean holding a universe in her hand and telekinetically remodelling it is simply a nice visual depiction. LT doesn't have his own story arcs or series to display all of his feats in his billions of years of existence, there's no telling what he's done to protect existence in the MU.
Phoenix is the power of creation, so it creates. Phoenix is the power of destruction, so it destroys. Phoenix is the power of life anew, so it thrives through the destruction it brings about, fulfilling it's purpose.
Purpose.
Living Tribunal is the judge of creation, so he judges. Living Tribubal is the executioner of creation, if need be, so he executes. Living Tribunal is the protector of creation, so he protects, fulfilling it's purpose.
Purpose.
If the TOAA did not conceive and produce creation, or if it chose to end creation, there'd be no purpose for Living Tribunal's existence, so he'd have no reason to exist.
If the TOAA did not desire to create and produce creation at all, and simply chose to exist alone as an independent omnipotent entity, there'd be no purpose or reason for the 'Phoenix Force', so it would have no reason to exist.
It's purpose, nothing more.
You use a fork more than you use a sword. It doesn't make the fork more powerful, it simply means the fork has more practical uses. When the time comes, you still reach for your sword.
Phoenix is simply a multi purpose tool, where as Living Tribunal is solely for security reasons. It doesn't make one more powerful than the other, one is simply used for more tasks.
Originally posted by illadelph12-`
LT's power isn't in doubt either.So long as there's a multiverse, LT will watch over it. When the time comes and TOAA uses the Phoenix to reset creation, a new creation will come, and if TOAA sees fit, which more than like he will, he'll re-install his security system:
the Living Tribunal.
You don't need protection if there's nothing to protect.
It's very simple. The fact that TOAA always has his power of creation (Phoenix) is simply a matter that the TOAA always exists, it's not a display of Phoenix's importance. TOAA could simply choose not to create and hang Phoenix on the shelf, just as it can end creation and not need LT to protect it.
Phoenix's 'feats' aren't feats, it's simply the power of God enacting it's purpose. That 'feat' of Jean holding a universe in her hand and telekinetically remodelling it is simply a nice visual depiction. LT doesn't have his own story arcs or series to display all of his feats in his billions of years of existence, there's no telling what he's done to protect existence in the MU.
Phoenix is the power of creation, so it creates. Phoenix is the power of destruction, so it destroys. Phoenix is the power of life anew, so it thrives through the destruction it brings about, fulfilling it's purpose.
Purpose.
Living Tribunal is the judge of [B]creation
, so he judges. Living Tribubal is the executioner of creation, if need be, so he executes. Living Tribunal is the protector of creation, so he protects, fulfilling it's purpose.Purpose.
If the TOAA did not conceive and produce creation, or if it chose to end creation, there'd be no purpose for Living Tribunal's existence, so he'd have no reason to exist.
If the TOAA did not desire to create and produce creation at all, and simply chose to exist alone as an independent omnipotent entity, there'd be no purpose or reason for the 'Phoenix Force', so it would have no reason to exist.
It's purpose, nothing more.
You use a fork more than you use a sword. It doesn't make the fork more powerful, it simply means the fork has more practical uses. When the time comes, you still reach for your sword.
Phoenix is simply a multi purpose tool, where as Living Tribunal is solely for security reasons. It doesn't make one more powerful than the other, one is simply used for more tasks. [/B]
Ill. The Phoenix force is literally the power of God the power he uses to make and the power he uses to destroy. The White Crown Phoenix does his will in the multiverse. As a seperate aspect from the whole that is T.O.A.A this power is said to be second only to TOAA in the comics. So whether the phoenix power is greater than LT should not be in doubt.
LT is a guardian of the multiverse which at the end of creation is absorbed. He is then it seems recreated before the beginning of creation anew. Of course Gods power is greater than something created from said same power.
The Phoenix force is literally the power of God the power he uses to make and the power he uses to destroy. The White Crown Phoenix does his will in the multiverse. As a seperate aspect from the whole that is T.O.A.A this power is said to be second only to TOAA in the comics. So whether the phoenix power is greater than LT should not be in doubt.LT is a guardian of the multiverse which at the end of creation is absorbed. He is then it seems recreated before the beginning of creation anew. Of course Gods power is greater than something created from said same power.
Therein, again, is a difference of opinion GS.
LT is endowed with power of TOAA as well. TOAA created LT using 'Phoenix' because, well, technically, TOAA creates everything using 'Phoenix'. LT doesn't have the 'Power of Creation', but he has power endowed by the TOAA, to what degree is unknown, but his purpose is known. I think it's an assumption on your part that simply because Phoenix is God's Power of Creation it is more powerful than LT, who is "God's Power of Protection", so to speak. Phoenix's purpose simply transcends the necessity of the Living Tribunal. Phoenix is used to create that which Living Tribunal is used to protect. Without creation, Living Tribunal has no purpose, just as if TOAA chooses not to create, Phoenix has no purpose. They are both 'empowered' by God and carry out his will, they simply have different jobs, with Phoenix having more roles, not necessarily more power.
Of course Gods power is greater than something created from said same power.
Not exactly, TOAA could create something equally endowed in power, it doesn't have to be inferior. He simply can't create something more powerful than his own power to create since it's not possible to surpass supreme, only equal. With the concept of supreme you can only be less than or equal to, there is no greater.
Phoenix isn't the supreme. It's the TOAA's power of creation, but TOAA could at a whim make it obsolete or have an equal. There's no telling how many aspects of the TOAA there are. The known aspects are Aspect 1: Power of Creation and Aspect 2: Power to Destroy Creation, with Power to Protection Creation (LT) being Aspect 3, which is not necessary without Aspect 1 being fulfilled.
And you still haven't shown when the entire multiverse will be reset at once. As it stands now there is only evidence of the universal cycles that routinely happen and that Eternity discussed with Phoenix. Are you saying that the progression of the 616 universe, the only universe which Eternity has knowledge of, brings about the necessary purge and reset of the entire Marvel Multiverse, or just that of the 616 where as Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, etc. will cease to exist an be replaced in the next go round, which has already happened before (with the destruction of Galan's/Galactus's home universe and it birthing the 616's creation)?
Originally posted by illadelph12
Therein, again, is a difference of opinion GS.LT is endowed with power of TOAA as well. TOAA created LT using 'Phoenix' because, well, technically, TOAA creates [B]everything
using 'Phoenix'. LT doesn't have the 'Power of Creation', but he has power endowed by the TOAA, to what degree is unknown, but his purpose is known. I think it's an assumption on your part that simply because Phoenix is God's Power of Creation it is more powerful than LT, who is "God's Power of Protection", so to speak. Phoenix's purpose simply transcends the necessity of the Living Tribunal. Phoenix is used to create that which Living Tribunal is used to protect. Without creation, Living Tribunal has no purpose, just as if TOAA chooses not to create, Phoenix has no purpose. They are both 'empowered' by God and carry out his will, they simply have different jobs, with Phoenix having more roles, not necessarily more power.Not exactly, TOAA could create something equally endowed in power, it doesn't have to be inferior. He simply can't create something more powerful than his own power to create since it's not possible to surpass supreme, only equal. With the concept of supreme you can only be less than or equal to, there is no greater.
Phoenix isn't the supreme. It's the TOAA's power of creation, but TOAA could at a whim make it obsolete or have an equal. There's no telling how many aspects of the TOAA there are. The known aspects are Aspect 1: Power of Creation and Aspect 2: Power to Destroy Creation, with Power to Protection Creation (LT) being Aspect 3, which is not necessary without Aspect 1 being fulfilled.
And you still haven't shown when the entire multiverse will be reset at once. As it stands now there is only evidence of the universal cycles that routinely happen and that Eternity discussed with Phoenix. Are you saying that the progression of the 616 universe, the only universe which Eternity has knowledge of, brings about the necessary purge and reset of the entire Marvel Multiverse, or just that of the 616 where as Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, etc. will cease to exist an be replaced in the next go round, which has already happened before (with the destruction of Galan's/Galactus's home universe and it birthing the 616's creation)? [/B]
You seem to have completely misunderstood Ill or just have got confused somewhere down the line. Phoenix is the creation power of God. It is his creation aspect. Just like in DC they have the Presence, the Word, the Source and so on. Those things are all aspects of the same being. Different facets of the whole that is TOAA. That seems to be the misunderstanding. It is literally his/its creation power. It is not a being he created seperately to do his will in the multiverse. So how pray tell is God going to create a being greater than himself. Its like me making out of my own body something greater than me. LT is not an aspect of TOAA im afraid. LT is a being created by God (therefore through the Phoenix power) to protect the multiverse. Of course the Phoenix power is greater than LT. I really dont understand why this is going on so long its quite obvious. Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason. Its literally a part of him a different facet of the whole that is TOAA. LT is a bveing created by TOAA. Ok?
I'll explain the creation cycle once more. Please take this in. The natural life cycle of a universe is that its created, maintained and then consumed by The White Crown Phoenix. The evolution of a universes beings to the ultimate stage is the signal to Phoenix to end a universe. The universes are presumably not at the same stage in their cycle therefore there end will not occur at the same time. However ULTIMATELY it is a multiversal process. Presumably LT is absorbed when the last universe is consumed by Phoenix. Whether thats the point he is or not is irrelevant the crux of the matter is that he is clearly depicted on a few occassions to be a victim of the process. So what point that happens is really not important to this discussion. Are we understood now?
Nope, I'm not letting you off the hook that easily, GS.
Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason. Its literally a part of him a different facet of the whole that is TOAA. LT is a bveing created by TOAA. Ok?
The same has been stated about LT numerous times in the comics.
That statement is immaterial.
And I believe here you are the one that is misunderstanding. I did not say that TOAA could create something more powerful than himself, in fact, I even went out of my way to say the following:
...TOAA could create something equally endowed in power, it doesn't have to be inferior. He simply can't create something more powerful than his own power to create since it's not possible to surpass supreme, only equal. With the concept of supreme you can only be less than or equal to, there is no greater.
The fact that TOAA created the Living Tribunal does not mean it is inferior to his power of creation (Phoenix) wholely, he could have made it equal in terms of power, but not equal in terms of purpose. He could bestow that level of power upon a creation if he so wished, he simply can't create something which surpasses his ability because that is a paradox, you cannot surpass supreme.
The concept that you are having a problem grasping is the fact that just because the Phoenix has this purpose of creation and destruction does not mean that TOAA could not create something immune to it or outside of it's influence (like true Beyonders who aren't part of this cycle), or that it could create something equal to it in terms of power, but not in purpose. TOAA can create absolutes. LT and Phoenix are more peers than anything else. For instance, when you say:
The Phoenix force is literally the power of God the power he uses to make and the power he uses to destroy. The White Crown Phoenix does his will in the multiverse.
LT is also the power of God and carries out his will within the multiverse. It could be said that Living Tribunal is TOAA's "avatar" of protection and judgement aspect, if you will. A being posessed with the aspect of TOAA that protects creation and judges their works, but is not necessary when there is no creation.
So, when you say:
Whether thats the point he is or not is irrelevant the crux of the matter is that he is clearly depicted on a few occassions to be a victim of the process.
You forget the fact that unlike Phoenix, LT is only necessary so long as there is creation, TOAA only needs to protect creation until he sees fit to destroy creation and start over again, so in the time when TOAA sees fit to destroy creation and start anew, the necessity for having the Living Tribunal; the necessity for TOAA to protect creation, ceases. Just as if the TOAA chose not to create at all, the necessity for the Phoenix Force ceases.
The purpose ceases.
The fact that LT's purpose is dependent on Phoenix fulfilling it's purpose does not make Phoenix more powerful than LT. The fact Phoenix is used to create what LT protects does not make Phoenix more powerful. Both of their powers are derived from the same place, Phoenix simply comes first in purpose.
LT can't protect if Phoenix doesn't create, and when Phoenix wipes out creation, LT is no longer necessary to protect the creation, so his substance returns to TOAA, or batter yet, that aspect of TOAA is no longer necessary to act.
The only difference is that Phoenix's purpose is seemingly perpetual, where as LT is dependent on having Phoenix fulfill it's purpose in order for him to operate.
That's not to hard to comprehend, is it?
A fairly fine , one might say hair-splitting, theological point regarding the nature of Holy Comunion (I'm not a theologian, but I was raised by them) about which there have been thousands upon thousands of words of heated rhetoric about how The Other Side Has It All Wrong for the past 500 years or so.
""""""""""""""""""""""Nope, I'm not letting you off the hook that easily, GS.
quote:
Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason. Its literally a part of him a different facet of the whole that is TOAA. LT is a bveing created by TOAA. Ok?
The same has been stated about LT numerous times in the comics.
That statement is immaterial.
And I believe here you are the one that is misunderstanding. I did not say that TOAA could create something more powerful than himself, in fact, I even went out of my way to say the following:
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Its not about you letting me off on the subject, because what is stated or shown in the comics is the only thing that really matters. When Phoenix was the creation aspect of God when it was first created it was stated to be second only to T.O.A.A at a time when LT was around and being written by the same writer who also wrote in Strange Tales. Phoenix as the creation aspect was greater in both power and purpose.
Then the 86 retcon occurred which lowered phoenix from the creation aspect into just another cosmic being. It was then that entities such as the Infinity Being were created and LT was pushed to prominence. However in 2002 Xmen Forever began the retcon of Phoenix back into the creation aspect. In this title the abstracts were stated to be surpassed in power and scope by the evolving humanity (LT was included in this category by the comic). The Stranger hoped to upset the natural order and bring about the end prematurely. The phoenix power was depicted as being enough to humble LT in those circumstances. Eternity contacted Jean to stop Stranger from tapping into the power before it was too late. With that new info your counter is no longer valid. Maybe I should have explained myself more clearly before but i suggest you read the comic to get a better idea. In the natural scheme of things Phoenix would bring about the end after the signal from humanity and then LT along with everything else would be consumed and taken to the white hot room. However in the comic the Phoenix power was shown as being enough acting outside of those parameters to humble LT.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""The fact that TOAA created the Living Tribunal does not mean it is inferior to his power of creation (Phoenix) wholely, he could have made it equal in terms of power, but not equal in terms of purpose. He could bestow that level of power upon a creation if he so wished, he simply can't create something which surpasses his ability because that is a paradox, you cannot surpass supreme.
The concept that you are having a problem grasping is the fact that just because the Phoenix has this purpose of creation and destruction does not mean that TOAA could not create something immune to it or outside of it's influence (like true Beyonders who aren't part of this cycle), or that it could create something equal to it in terms of power, but not in purpose. TOAA can create absolutes. LT and Phoenix are more peers than anything else.
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Its not that i have trouble with grasping what you're saying Ill. Far from it. I just dont agree with it. You still seem to be seeing the Phoenix force as a tool created by TOAA for a purpose. What im trying to get through to you is that its literally Gods creation power. It is not a seperate thing created. The White Crown Phoenix (Jean) is one with Gods power and does his will in creation. As for the True Beyonders you dont actually know whether they are a part of the cycle or not so using them as an example is a bad choice. It stands to reason that they are created by God if they are within creation (i.e not in the white hot room, outside of heaven) which they are. Theyre just not in the heroes multiverse. Does that mean that God didnt create them? No it certainly does not. LT and Jean the Phoenix of the White Crown could be seen as peers however the power she draws on is greater than him. Its what spawned him and everything else that exists. The Phoenix of the White Crown (Jean) has a greater purpose as you seem to agree with but what iim trying to get across to you is thatthe Stranger using Jean to draw on this force was shown as being enough to take out LT. It wasnt a matter of LT's purpose being fulfilled. Stranger was bringing the natural order crashing down but Eternity spoke to Jean and told her Stranger needs to be stopped.
LT is not an avatar of TOAA there is no evidence of that whatsoever. It hasnt even been hinted. He is a being created by TOAA. Thats a big difference. Jean is an avatar. A direct incarnation of Gods creation power within our plane of existence.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Just as if the TOAA chose not to create at all, the necessity for the Phoenix Force ceases.
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You've misunderstood. Youve made this quite apparent. In those circumstances the necessity for avatars such as Jean ceases. The Phoenix Force is creation power. If he doesnt create it doesnt mean the Phoenix force ceases to be does it. Its an aspect of TOAA see it as another personality of TOAA.
You seem to have a hard time seeing the difference between the avatars and the Phoenix Force. The avatars tap into gods power and it is they who carry out Gods will in the multiverse. It is the White Crown Phoenix who you can deem a peer of LT if you must. However the Phoenix Force Gods creation power is something beyond both. It is just a part of TOAA not a seperate tool he orders around. Thats what you dont seem to be able to grasp.
<<Its even stated in the comics that the Phoenix aspect, the creation power of TOAA is second only to the whole TOAA which stands to reason.>>
you've said this a couple times. i'm curious what book makes this claim.
<<A fairly fine , one might say hair-splitting, theological point regarding the nature of Holy Comunion (I'm not a theologian, but I was raised by them) about which there have been thousands upon thousands of words of heated rhetoric about how The Other Side Has It All Wrong for the past 500 years or so.>>
😂
lam, man, you totally crack me up. i love your posts. you really should post more often. 😄
<<Whats that Cons Trans thing again ??>>
transubstantiation can be explained like this: gs is cool when talking about other characters, but when the PF is the topic that's a bit of a different animal. in this case, it's like the pf is called down by him, comes into him and actually CHANGES gs into a new substance which, for purposes of this example i will name the GS-FORCE (careful note to gs detractors - that is GS not BS because i am willing to admit that he has actually taught me a few things about the pf. and he usually debates in good faith with good arguments.)
consubstantiation can be viewed like this - imagine any fanboy (wolverine8888 or whoever you so choose). now, fanboy has no NEED to summon any force in a particular debate, because the fanboy COEXISTS with his character - the character is with him at all times wherever he goes.
all clear? 😉