Originally posted by TricksterPriestdur
Luke Cage, not sure how long ago it was. Think Hulk did it, someone mentioned the others.
I'd love to see a scan of Luke Cage busting through Invisible Woman's shields.
I know World War Hulk did it, but I don't consider him weaker than Gladiator. I don't remember other people mentioning others. But it's not like this is a pop quiz. Was just wondering if you knew of any instances. Don't know why I can't think of them myself. I've read enough FF that I ought to know.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Eveything you just said assumes Wonderwoman knows Sue has forcefields. But the common knowledge rule uses the knowledge of the general populace as the benchmark. Do you think Betty Brant knows Invisible Woman can use forcefields?
No, we're not talking about Hal. But we're not talking about some random GL from Sector 1234 either. Invisible Woman's forcefields are incredibly strong. You've seen the scans with Gladiator. For Wonderwoman to have enough knowledge to know how much force she'd have to use to break through them again presupposes knowledge that I'm no confident you've proven she has in the first place. I know enough about the yellow weakness myself to know that it is a question I need clarified and will probably only get when I myself go to the source.
I think her use of force fields is pretty common knowledge. But even if we take that out of the equation, it still makes sense for WW to take her out first. Without Reed having any prep time, she would be the teams best strategic asset. The strength of the force field is irrelevant to the argument I'm making about why WW would take her out first. Also, the lack of knowledg works both ways here. I seriously doubt anyone on the FF knows what the lasso is capable of or about her sight of Athena.
And the possible yellow weakness wasn't present in the other scan. I really don't think Diana isn't strong enough to break Sue's shield (and I don't think you do either). Where we differ is that I think Diana does break through before Sue can open a bubble in her brain. She's too fast.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I hate to bust ur train wreck of a thought line but dear what ever gave u the idea that sue could hold diana and concentrate enough to make a second deadlier bubble? Lulz at that idea. As if she coukld even get a bead on diana. If she did manage to catch her she would be getting crzy feed back and prolly get kod like quasar did. Only faster.
I didn't say Sue could hold Diana forever. But I think she's got a shot of holding her for enough time to open another forcefield inside her. Can't really remember foes weaker than Gladiator busting Sue's shields. Examples off the top of your head?
Originally posted by Badabing
Sue's not opening a force field in anyone's head unless the circumstances are so dire that it's a final option. It's not within her character.
Oh well, then....
Well, Sue can...um....hit her really, really hard with a forcefield...or...um...
I can't think of anything else....
Originally posted by fangirl101
I hate to bust ur train wreck of a thought line but dear what ever gave u the idea that sue could hold diana and concentrate enough to make a second deadlier bubble? Lulz at that idea. As if she coukld even get a bead on diana. If she did manage to catch her she would be getting crzy feed back and prolly get kod like quasar did. Only faster.
Ehem, just wanted to point out that quasar wasnt koed and JLA avengers isnt even valid as evidence as im sure u know.
On that note WW wins.
Originally posted by SasaraixxProve that Betty Brant would probably know about Sue's forcefields. It's a silly notion. And it only makes sense to you that Wonderwoman would attack a person who can turn invisible, because you know Sue is the greatest threat with her forcefields and given the opportunity, Sue could take down Diana. But Diana doesn't know about the forcefields. And I agree that most people would not know about Diana's lasso's properties. Yes, super-criminals hear rumors about it as seen in Identity Crisis, but normal people? Why would normal people in the DC Universe know about the Lasso's properties? Why would the FF know? Who said I wouldn't apply the rules equally?
I think her use of force fields is pretty common knowledge. But even if we take that out of the equation, it still makes sense for WW to take her out first. Without Reed having any prep time, she would be the teams best strategic asset. The strength of the force field is irrelevant to the argument I'm making about why WW would take her out first. Also, the lack of knowledg works both ways here. I seriously doubt anyone on the FF knows what the lasso is capable of or about her sight of Athena.
Originally posted by SasaraixxIt's present because it's always present. Just because they don't spell it out for you doesn't disprove it. Like I said, I'll read the comic myself. And being fast has nothing to do with breaking through the field. Her strength determines whether she breaks through the field.
And the possible yellow weakness wasn't present in the other scan. I really don't think Diana isn't strong enough to break Sue's shield (and I don't think you do either). Where we differ is that I think Diana does break through before Sue can open a bubble in her brain. She's too fast.
Originally posted by fangirl101She can make multiple fields with a thought. Prove that she can't do it while restraining someone of Wonderwoman's strength. Also, lulz at trying to use JLA/Avengers.
I hate to bust ur train wreck of a thought line but dear what ever gave u the idea that sue could hold diana and concentrate enough to make a second deadlier bubble? Lulz at that idea. As if she coukld even get a bead on diana. If she did manage to catch her she would be getting crzy feed back and prolly get kod like quasar did. Only faster.
Originally posted by BadabingI never agrued she'd open a bubble in her brain. I don't think she's ever done, nor do I think she ever would. She'd probably do what she did with Wolverine in Enemy of the State: open up fields in her lungs to place pressure on them.
Sue's not opening a force field in anyone's head unless the circumstances are so dire that it's a final option. It's not within her character.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Diana knows about the forcefields. I would also say that Sue would get knowledge of Diana's lasso since it's her main "weapon". That would probably general knowledge and built into the forum rules.
Prove that Betty Brant would probably know about Sue's forcefields. It's a silly notion. And it only makes sense to you that Wonderwoman would attack a person who can turn invisible, because you know Sue is the greatest threat with her forcefields and given the opportunity, Sue could take down Diana. But Diana doesn't know about the forcefields. And I agree that most people would not know about Diana's lasso's properties. Yes, super-criminals hear rumors about it as seen in Identity Crisis, but normal people? Why would normal people in the DC Universe know about the Lasso's properties? Why would the FF know? Who said I wouldn't apply the rules equally?
It's present because it's always present. Just because they don't spell it out for you doesn't disprove it. Like I said, I'll read the comic myself. And being fast has nothing to do with breaking through the field. Her strength determines whether she breaks through the field.
She can make multiple fields with a thought. Prove that she can't do it while restraining someone of Wonderwoman's strength. Also, lulz at trying to use JLA/Avengers.
I never agrued she'd open a bubble in her brain. I don't think she's ever done, nor do I think she ever would. She'd probably do what she did with Wolverine in Enemy of the State: open up fields in her lungs to place pressure on them.
The yellow only works on rookies who haven't overcome and understood their fear. It's been stated.
Yes, no JLA/Avengers. It's a crossover and causes too many problems.
What makes you think my post was for you?
Originally posted by BadabingUh. Considering that the rules state: "Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not." So please explain how the general population on Marvel Earth would know that Invisible Woman can make forcefields (Betty Brant let's say) or how the general population would know that Diana's magic Lasso can compel you to tell the truth (Cat Grant let's say). I'm rrrrrrrealllyy interested in your explanation. Suggesting that the FF would know about the Lasso's properties, e.g. can compel truth is like suggesting that Superman would know Mjolnir's properties and that classic Thor would revert to Don Blake after 60 seconds. Hell... even the vast majority of Thor's own friends/foes didn't even know that. Now Superman does because of your method of application? I doubt that's what the rules intended at all.
Diana knows about the forcefields. I would also say that Sue would get knowledge of Diana's lasso since it's her main "weapon". That would probably general knowledge and built into the forum rules.The yellow only works on rookies who haven't overcome and understood their fear. It's been stated.
Yes, no JLA/Avengers. It's a crossover and causes too many problems.
What makes you think my post was for you?
The yellow works on anyone who lets their fear in and who fail to overcome it. Even a veteran can let fear creep in and be shut down and it's happened on-panel. Being a veteran presupposes you'd have more experience, but that doesn't mean veterans are immune. As such, you're incorrect when you state that only rookies are susceptible to it. And I don't even know who that GL is in that scan.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Uh. Considering that the rules state: "Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not." So please explain how the general population on Marvel Earth would know that Invisible Woman can make forcefields (Betty Brant let's say) or how the general population would know that Diana's magic Lasso can compel you to tell the truth (Cat Grant let's say). I'm rrrrrrrealllyy interested in your explanation. Suggesting that the FF would know about the Lasso's properties, e.g. can compel truth is like suggesting that Superman would know Mjolnir's properties and that classic Thor would revert to Don Blake after 60 seconds. Hell... even the vast majority of Thor's own friends/foes didn't even know that. Now Superman does because of your method of application? I doubt that's what the rules intended at all.
First, using the abomination called Identity Crisis is a big no-no.
Second, Diana has a habit of going on stage on national television preaching about her gods and more importantly her lasso. She's spoken about her lasso's power frequently on TV and to the press.
Everyone on DC Earth knows about Diana's lasso and it's ability to make people tell the truth. However many are skeptical about it because they find it hard to believe that a rope can make you tell the truth no matter what. They KNOW about it, but they don't believe in it. They of course don't know if it's made from the Girdle of Gaea or anything Diana or her ilk specifically knows.
Diana would know about Sue's forcefields and invisibility because the general population knows about her powers. She's part of the famous Fantastic Four and the general population know about her famous powerset. You're saying that Diana won't know about the Human Torch's pyrokinesis or Mr Fantastic's elasticity?
What she won't probably know, of course is how strong they are or versatile they can be.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Prove that Betty Brant would probably know about Sue's forcefields. It's a silly notion. And it only makes sense to you that Wonderwoman would attack a person who can turn invisible, because you know Sue is the greatest threat with her forcefields and given the opportunity, Sue could take down Diana. But Diana doesn't know about the forcefields.
First, how often has Sue used force fields over her career? Enough that I think people would know she can do it. If you can prove to me that she's only used force fields a couple of times then I will retract the statement.
As Draco said, the thing Diana wouldn't know is how durable they are. They even had her use her force fields in those god awful FF movies. It's not that obscure a power that people would not know she can do it. There is nothing silly about it.
Also, it's common knowledge the lasso can make people tell the truth. People don't know it's origins or why it forces them to tell the truth but it's her most famous characteristic. Also, using the Clark Kent example is WAY off base because the general population doesn't even know who Clark Kent is, vis-a-vis Superman.
And being fast has nothing to do with breaking through the field. Her strength determines whether she breaks through the field.[/B]
Another misread. I never said that it is her speed that lets her break the force field. I said that her speed 1. makes it very unlikely that Sue can even catch her in a force field to begin with and 2. IF she does catch her, it won't take her long to break through because her H2H speed allows her to break through fast. It might take a few punches to break through (initially not knowing the strength of the field) but when you can move as fast as Diana can, a few punches is almost nothing time-wise.
I never agrued she'd open a bubble in her brain. I don't think she's ever done, nor do I think she ever would. She'd probably do what she did with Wolverine in Enemy of the State: open up fields in her lungs to place pressure on them. [/B]
Then she's royally screwed because I don't think that will work on WW as she has shown that her lungs can withstand being in space.
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
First, how often has Sue used force fields over her career? Enough that I think people would know she can do it. If you can prove to me that she's only used force fields a couple of times then I will retract the statement.As Draco said, the thing Diana wouldn't know is how durable they are. They even had her use her force fields in those god awful FF movies. It's not that obscure a power that people would not know she can do it. There is nothing silly about it.
Also, it's common knowledge the lasso can make people tell the truth. People don't know it's origins or why it forces them to tell the truth but it's her most famous characteristic. Also, using the Clark Kent example is WAY off base because the general population doesn't even know who Clark Kent is, vis-a-vis Superman.
Another misread. I never said that it is her speed that lets her break the force field. I said that her speed 1. makes it very unlikely that Sue can even catch her in a force field to begin with and 2. IF she does catch her, it won't take her long to break through because her H2H speed allows her to break through fast. It might take a few punches to break through (initially not knowing the strength of the field) but when you can move as fast as Diana can, a few punches is almost nothing time-wise.
Then she's royally screwed because I don't think that will work on WW as she has shown that her lungs can withstand being in space.
How can you say Sue is royally screwed because you THINK a force bubble in WW lungs won't work. You obviously don't know for sure.
And as for the arguement that WW will know about Sue's forcefields, I agree she will know (according to KMC rules) about the forcefields, but she won't know about how Sue will generate them inside a foe's body, to put them down.
Originally posted by BUSTER1
How can you say Sue is royally screwed because you THINK a force bubble in WW lungs won't work. You obviously don't know for sure.
And as for the arguement that WW will know about Sue's forcefields, I agree she will know (according to KMC rules) about the forcefields, but she won't know about how Sue will generate them inside a foe's body, to put them down.
There is no contradiction in that statement. Yes, I THINK a force bubble in WW's lungs won't be an effective way of putting her down based on what we know about what her lungs can tolerate. Of course I don't know. You don't know either. No one does. We've never seen that done to WW. My gut tells me that it won't work, and that is enough for me to form an opinion.
Someone proffered that scenario as IW's way of taking down WW. IF that's all she has, then she is screwed. This whole discussion was in response to the claim that IW won't expand a bubble inside WW's brain because that is out of character. That's really her best option.
And for the third or fourth time, knowledge about IW's ability to expand a bubble inside someone's body is completely irrelevant to my argument as to why WW would go after Sue first. I said all Diana would know is that IW can turn herself and other invisible and can create force fields. That's all she needs to know. Strategically it makes sense to take her out first. Without prep, Reed is just a guy who stretches. Her bracers will handle HT and Thing is a brick that she might have to slug it out with (not necessarily knowing his strength/durability). The only person who could add to the difficulty of taking down these guys as a group is Sue. She can run interference and try to shield her teammates from attack. You'd want to take her out first.
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
There is no contradiction in that statement. Yes, I THINK a force bubble in WW's lungs won't be an effective way of putting her down based on what we know about what her lungs can tolerate. Of course I don't know. You don't know either. No one does. We've never seen that done to WW. My gut tells me that it won't work, and that is enough for me to form an opinion.Someone proffered that scenario as IW's way of taking down WW. IF that's all she has, then she is screwed. This whole discussion was in response to the claim that IW won't expand a bubble inside WW's brain because that is out of character. That's really her best option.
And for the third or fourth time, knowledge about IW's ability to expand a bubble inside someone's body is completely irrelevant to my argument as to why WW would go after Sue first. I said all Diana would know is that IW can turn herself and other invisible and can create force fields. That's all she needs to know. Strategically it makes sense to take her out first. Without prep, Reed is just a guy who stretches. Her bracers will handle HT and Thing is a brick that she might have to slug it out with (not necessarily knowing his strength/durability). The only person who could add to the difficulty of taking down these guys as a group is Sue. She can run interference and try to shield her teammates from attack. You'd want to take her out first.
Until Sue was taken over by her Malice persona, even she didnt know just how powerful she could be. WW knowledge of Sue would be no more than Sue's own knowledge of her true potential. Before Sue became Malice it was widely perceived that Johnny and Ben were the most dangerous of the FF. So chances are she may not go after Sue 1st. I reckon WW wins more than she loses but the FF can pull off at least 2/10.
Originally posted by BUSTER1ok. So how do they pull two wins? Only sue is any real threat. And she's the slowest of the crew. So how do they take wins when the strongest of the team can't hit wondy?
Until Sue was taken over by her Malice persona, even she didnt know just how powerful she could be. WW knowledge of Sue would be no more than Sue's own knowledge of her true potential. Before Sue became Malice it was widely perceived that Johnny and Ben were the most dangerous of the FF. So chances are she may not go after Sue 1st. I reckon WW wins more than she loses but the FF can pull off at least 2/10.
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Please, you weren't trying to be nice. Going on and on "I don't like you." lol I really don't care.No, there is a huge difference. Batman has never been shown having trouble getting out of the speed force because he can't enter it! Please stop sounding so desperate.
And I love how you're trying to turn this around and ask a new (and silly question) because you are unable to back up your points. WW hasn't encountered enemies who make invisible fields (Draco or Fangirl correct me if I am wrong). The individual powerset is not what is important. It is how fast the person can move, react and think. WW move faster than the speed of sound and has arguably FTL reflexes. IW cannot match that. Period. I don't have any scans of Superman moving before someone put up an invisible force field, but I would bet you any amount of money that he would.
You just seem incapable of comprehending what speed means in this battle. Until you can, there is no point in talking to you. You are in the clear minority in this thread. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why?
I am always try and be civil in debates until someone like you comes. But im over it, I just have to face that there will be dipshits on the internet. Big surprise.
The batman thing, you almost got until your last sentence in the paragraph. I used such as example as preposterous as that because it was intent on emphasizing my point. You foolishness has allowed has made you blind to what I am trying to saying and your ignorance is causing you to think i'm desperate.
I pointed that out how you believe that tactic that has not been used on IW (using superior speed) will give WW the auto win 10/10.
Speed is not everything. It's very important but not everything. Sorry I am not swayed by what is the more popular vote in threads. I make my decision on who I think will win.
So that neither of us can give the other scans of exactly what they want I guess this debate with you is over. 😄
FF takes some wins. Per the OP questions, yes WW can take out all four of the members of the FF.