Wonder Woman vs Fantastic Four

Originally posted by Lord Feron
I am always try and be civil in debates until someone like you comes. But im over it, I just have to face that there will be dipshits on the internet. Big surprise.

The batman thing, you almost got until your last sentence in the paragraph. I used such as example as preposterous as that because it was intent on emphasizing my point. You foolishness has allowed has made you blind to what I am trying to saying and your ignorance is causing you to think i'm desperate.

I pointed that out how you believe that tactic that has not been used on IW (using superior speed) will give WW the auto win 10/10.

Speed is not everything. It's very important but not everything. Sorry I am not swayed by what is the more popular vote in threads. I make my decision on who I think will win.

So that neither of us can give the other scans of exactly what they want I guess this debate with you is over. 😄

FF takes some wins. Per the OP questions, yes WW can take out all four of the members of the FF.

An entire post entirely void of any sound arguments or anything even remotely worthwhile to consider. Why did you even bother posting? You haven't managed to deal with me, Fangirl or Draco in this thread. You haven't made a good case.

Sue can't avoid a blitz at the start. That is why Carver made a new thread. Speed is everything here when you have a character as fast as WW and one as slow as IW. You just can't seem to grasp that concept. You sound almost a bad as Stormultt in the Storm vs WW threads.

Originally posted by BUSTER1
Until Sue was taken over by her Malice persona, even she didnt know just how powerful she could be. WW knowledge of Sue would be no more than Sue's own knowledge of her true potential. Before Sue became Malice it was widely perceived that Johnny and Ben were the most dangerous of the FF. So chances are she may not go after Sue 1st. I reckon WW wins more than she loses but the FF can pull off at least 2/10.

And once again, I already explained that the reason WW targets Sue has nothing to do with her knowledge of Sue being the most powerful.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Yeah me to.. sorry I ever bother debating in this thread. wallbash

Sorry Lord Feron- West Ham lost today so I'm a bit emotional-but still we both agree that WW wins more than she loses, but we're still in the wrong!

Yeah, WW would win most of the matches here. The FF really isn't known for their power anyway. It's usually Reed figuring out some sort of plot device to beat more powerful opponents. But in terms of sheer power, WW got them beat easily. Even Super Skrull would be easily taken out by WW and that guy has all the powers of the FF combined and enhanced. I really don't see how they can take down WW unless they somehow get lucky and trap her in a Forcefield bubble long enough for Human Torch to nail her with a Nova Blast. But I doubt it.

WW takes this at least 8/10 to 9/10.

Originally posted by Draco69
First, using the abomination called Identity Crisis is a big no-no.

Second, Diana has a habit of going on stage on national television preaching about her gods and more importantly her lasso. She's spoken about her lasso's power frequently on TV and to the press.

Everyone on DC Earth knows about Diana's lasso and it's ability to make people tell the truth. However many are skeptical about it because they find it hard to believe that a rope can make you tell the truth no matter what. They KNOW about it, but they don't believe in it. They of course don't know if it's made from the Girdle of Gaea or anything Diana or her ilk specifically knows.

Diana would know about Sue's forcefields and invisibility because the general population knows about her powers. She's part of the famous Fantastic Four and the general population know about her famous powerset. You're saying that Diana won't know about the Human Torch's pyrokinesis or Mr Fantastic's elasticity?

What she won't probably know, of course is how strong they are or versatile they can be.

But that wouldn't even get you to where you want. Because even if you prove that, you still haven't proved that the general population knows abotu Invisible Woman's forcefields. Pathetic use of straw-man argumentation. Of course, Diana and the Marvel Earth's population would know about Human Torch's ability to be on fire and Mr. Fantastic's ability to stretch. But that automatically leads you to believe that Diana and the Marvel Earth's population knows about Invisible Woman's ability to manipulate forcefields? Ha. They know she can turn invisible, but that she can manipulate forcefields? Show me a a single bit of proof that a normal person would know that. Of course you can't. You want to be intransigient, that's your cup of tea. We all know how the rules would truly play out here.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Completely unsubstantiated statements. Every single one of them. Since when has Wonderwoman talked on tv about her Lasso's ability to compel the truth? It's an oft-whispered rumor amongst the super-criminal community, as proven on-panel. Show me a single scan that shows that her Lasso's properties are known to the general population on DC Earth.

But that wouldn't even get you to where you want. Because even if you prove that, you still haven't proved that the general population knows abotu Invisible Woman's forcefields. Pathetic use of straw-man argumentation. Of course, Diana and the Marvel Earth's population would know about Human Torch's ability to be on fire and Mr. Fantastic's ability to stretch. But that automatically leads you to believe that Diana and the Marvel Earth's population knows about Invisible Woman's ability to manipulate forcefields? Ha. They know she can turn invisible, but that she can manipulate forcefields? Show me a a single bit of proof that a normal person would know that. Of course you can't. You want to be intransigient, that's your cup of tea. We all know how the rules would truly play out here.

Well, there's stuff like FF stories where she surrounds entire groups of people with her invisible force fields in the middle of New York City and says things like, "Okay, everybody relax. I've got you in an invisible force field. You won't be harmed." This was in the #520+ issues of FF but she's done things like that many times. Then there's catching people falling and moving through the air while lifting people. At the very least they think she's got some kind of telekinetic power. The sheer number of times she's surrounded normal people with a force field in the streets though... And this is in New York City. Its far more than a stretch to claim people only know she can turn invisible.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Completely unsubstantiated statements. Every single one of them. Since when has Wonderwoman talked on tv about her Lasso's ability to compel the truth?

Third issue of Wonder Woman, Post-Crisis. Diana needed a publicist to further her mission of peace. Thus she was dubbed 'Wonder Woman' by the press and had several TV/magazines interviews discussing where she was from, who she was and more specifically what about her golden lasso.

In fact, talking about her lasso and it's ability to compel people to tell the truth on national television was what prompted her first encounter with Post-Crisis Cheetah.

Cheetah would have never gone after Diana if she had spoken about it and showcased on TV.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's an oft-whispered rumor amongst the super-criminal community, as proven on-panel. Show me a single scan that shows that her Lasso's properties are known to the general population on DC Earth.

No, you're using one issue of Identity Crisis which contradicts about twenty years and about 100 issues of Post-Crisis Wonder Woman history.

In her first appearance to the public, she spoke about the lasso's abilities.

It's no secret to the world because that was her mission (and the significance of her lasso) to be an ambassador of peace. And in order to do so, she was extremely open about herself and didn't take a secret identity unlike other superheroes.

What the public doesn't really necessarily believe in the lasso is that it really makes people tell the truth or that it's really unbreakable. They're skeptical about that.

Oh and Diana authored a best-selling book about her lasso, history and message of peace during Rucka's run.

So, yeah everybody knows about it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But that wouldn't even get you to where you want.

What you want is Sue to have some method of winning. Badabing says speedblitz is on and he also said Diana knows about her forcefields.

Now you're on your last leg trying to argue your way around the ruling made by Badabing since you don't like it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because even if you prove that, you still haven't proved that the general population knows abotu Invisible Woman's forcefields. Pathetic use of straw-man argumentation. Of course, Diana and the Marvel Earth's population would know about Human Torch's ability to be on fire and Mr. Fantastic's ability to stretch. But that automatically leads you to believe that Diana and the Marvel Earth's population knows about Invisible Woman's ability to manipulate forcefields? Ha. They know she can turn invisible, but that she can manipulate forcefields? Show me a a single bit of proof that a normal person would know that. Of course you can't. You want to be intransigient, that's your cup of tea. We all know how the rules would truly play out here.

Wait, so Marvel Earth knows the rest of the Fantastic Four's powers....but not Sue's. Because they can't see her forcefields? That's your arguement?

Wow. Than I guess Marvel Earth's general population doesn't know that Emma Frost is a telepath. Because they can't see her telepathy in action. They obviously don't know that Jean Grey is a telekinetic because they can't see her forcefields or telekinesis either. And what's to prove Quicksilver really has superspeed? They can't see him move that fast since he may as well be invisible.

And what's to prove Sue Storm really turns invisible? May she just teleports since she appears and reappears in another place.

And all those times she was shown floating in midair or having a laser beam bounce off some kind of barrier in the middle of Time Square? Well, those can't be forcefields, obviously?

Sorry, that's not gonna work. Of course, Marvel Earth knows about Sue's forcefields. Don't be silly.

Your only arguement is that if they can't see her forcefields, than the public must not know they exist despite the fact that they're world-wide celebrities, have had hundred of battles in full view of the public in NYC, and even a have Fantastic Four museum in their own damn headquarters.

If the rules of KMC, by your drastic revision, would say that the only way 'general knowledge' can pertain to another character of another universe than Flash wouldn't know about Professor Xavier's telepathy if they fight on KMC. Because telepathy isn't visible to the naked eye. And Colossus wouldn't know about Zatanna's magic. Because who's to say that's really magic and not really just some fancy matter manipulation according to the naked eye?

Sorry, but WW knows about the forcefields....

Originally posted by SupremeMan
Well, there's stuff like FF stories where she surrounds entire groups of people with her invisible force fields in the middle of New York City and says things like, "Okay, everybody relax. I've got you in an invisible force field. You won't be harmed." This was in the #520+ issues of FF but she's done things like that many times. Then there's catching people falling and moving through the air while lifting people. At the very least they think she's got some kind of telekinetic power. The sheer number of times she's surrounded normal people with a force field in the streets though... And this is in New York City. Its far more than a stretch to claim people only know she can turn invisible.

Nonsense. So what if Sue Storm is a celebrity of the world-renowned Fantastic Four? Nobody knows she has forcefields! That's ridiculous!

"Mommy? What's protecting us from all the falling debris?"

"Why, that's power of Jesus, Emily! It's certainly not the world-famous Invisible Woman using her forcefields to protect us."

Originally posted by SupremeMan
Well, there's stuff like FF stories where she surrounds entire groups of people with her invisible force fields in the middle of New York City and says things like, "Okay, everybody relax. I've got you in an invisible force field. You won't be harmed." This was in the #520+ issues of FF but she's done things like that many times. Then there's catching people falling and moving through the air while lifting people. At the very least they think she's got some kind of telekinetic power. The sheer number of times she's surrounded normal people with a force field in the streets though... And this is in New York City. Its far more than a stretch to claim people only know she can turn invisible.

Originally posted by Draco69
Third issue of Wonder Woman, Post-Crisis. Diana needed a publicist to further her mission of peace. Thus she was dubbed 'Wonder Woman' by the press and had several TV/magazines interviews discussing where she was from, who she was and more specifically what about her golden lasso.

In fact, talking about her lasso and it's ability to compel people to tell the truth on national television was what prompted her first encounter with Post-Crisis Cheetah.

Cheetah would have never gone after Diana if she had spoken about it and showcased on TV.

No, you're using one issue of Identity Crisis which contradicts about twenty years and about 100 issues of Post-Crisis Wonder Woman history.

In her first appearance to the public, she spoke about the lasso's abilities.

It's no secret to the world because that was her mission (and the significance of her lasso) to be an ambassador of peace. And in order to do so, she was extremely open about herself and didn't take a secret identity unlike other superheroes.

What the public doesn't really necessarily believe in the lasso is that it really makes people tell the truth or that it's really unbreakable. They're skeptical about that.

Oh and Diana authored a best-selling book about her lasso, history and message of peace during Rucka's run.

So, yeah everybody knows about it.

What you want is Sue to have some method of winning. Badabing says speedblitz is on and he also said Diana knows about her forcefields.

Now you're on your last leg trying to argue your way around the ruling made by Badabing since you don't like it.

Wait, so Marvel Earth knows the rest of the Fantastic Four's powers....but not Sue's. Because they can't see her forcefields? That's your arguement?

Wow. Than I guess Marvel Earth's general population doesn't know that Emma Frost is a telepath. Because they can't see her telepathy in action. They obviously don't know that Jean Grey is a telekinetic because they can't see her forcefields or telekinesis either. And what's to prove Quicksilver really has superspeed? They can't see him move that fast since he may as well be invisible.

And what's to prove Sue Storm really turns invisible? May she just teleports since she appears and reappears in another place.

And all those times she was shown floating in midair or having a laser beam bounce off some kind of barrier in the middle of Time Square? Well, those can't be forcefields, obviously?

Sorry, that's not gonna work. Of course, Marvel Earth knows about Sue's forcefields. Don't be silly.

Your only arguement is that if they can't see her forcefields, than the public must not know they exist despite the fact that they're world-wide celebrities, have had hundred of battles in full view of the public in NYC, and even a have Fantastic Four museum in their own damn headquarters.

If the rules of KMC, by your drastic revision, would say that the only way 'general knowledge' can pertain to another character of another universe than Flash wouldn't know about Professor Xavier's telepathy if they fight on KMC. Because telepathy isn't visible to the naked eye. And Colossus wouldn't know about Zatanna's magic. Because who's to say that's really magic and not really just some fancy matter manipulation according to the naked eye?

Sorry, but WW knows about the forcefields....

shock....Boom Shakalaka

Originally posted by Draco69
Third issue of Wonder Woman, Post-Crisis. Diana needed a publicist to further her mission of peace. Thus she was dubbed 'Wonder Woman' by the press and had several TV/magazines interviews discussing where she was from, who she was and more specifically what about her golden lasso.

In fact, talking about her lasso and it's ability to compel people to tell the truth on national television was what prompted her first encounter with Post-Crisis Cheetah.

Cheetah would have never gone after Diana if she had spoken about it and showcased on TV.

No, you're using one issue of Identity Crisis which contradicts about twenty years and about 100 issues of Post-Crisis Wonder Woman history.

In her first appearance to the public, she spoke about the lasso's abilities.

It's no secret to the world because that was her mission (and the significance of her lasso) to be an ambassador of peace. And in order to do so, she was extremely open about herself and didn't take a secret identity unlike other superheroes.

What the public doesn't really necessarily believe in the lasso is that it really makes people tell the truth or that it's really unbreakable. They're skeptical about that.

Oh and Diana authored a best-selling book about her lasso, history and message of peace during Rucka's run.

So, yeah everybody knows about it.

What you want is Sue to have some method of winning. Badabing says speedblitz is on and he also said Diana knows about her forcefields.

Now you're on your last leg trying to argue your way around the ruling made by Badabing since you don't like it.

Wait, so Marvel Earth knows the rest of the Fantastic Four's powers....but not Sue's. Because they can't see her forcefields? That's your arguement?

Wow. Than I guess Marvel Earth's general population doesn't know that Emma Frost is a telepath. Because they can't see her telepathy in action. They obviously don't know that Jean Grey is a telekinetic because they can't see her forcefields or telekinesis either. And what's to prove Quicksilver really has superspeed? They can't see him move that fast since he may as well be invisible.

And what's to prove Sue Storm really turns invisible? May she just teleports since she appears and reappears in another place.

And all those times she was shown floating in midair or having a laser beam bounce off some kind of barrier in the middle of Time Square? Well, those can't be forcefields, obviously?

Sorry, that's not gonna work. Of course, Marvel Earth knows about Sue's forcefields. Don't be silly.

Your only arguement is that if they can't see her forcefields, than the public must not know they exist despite the fact that they're world-wide celebrities, have had hundred of battles in full view of the public in NYC, and even a have Fantastic Four museum in their own damn headquarters.

If the rules of KMC, by your drastic revision, would say that the only way 'general knowledge' can pertain to another character of another universe than Flash wouldn't know about Professor Xavier's telepathy if they fight on KMC. Because telepathy isn't visible to the naked eye. And Colossus wouldn't know about Zatanna's magic. Because who's to say that's really magic and not really just some fancy matter manipulation according to the naked eye?

Sorry, but WW knows about the forcefields....

Wow...pwnage to the max. ✅

Originally posted by Badabing
Sue's not opening a force field in anyone's head unless the circumstances are so dire that it's a final option. It's not within her character.

I'm just an amused observer who doesn't own a single comic book, but is it within Diana's character to speed blitz humans only two of home have enough durability to not be instantly bifurcated by WW's punches? I mean if some average joe crook is knocking off a jewelry store she doesn't FTL in and punch a hole in his chest or anything, right?

Otherwise that logic, WW'd(acting in her character) pull all of her punches too, and which means the speedbltiz thing that, has been the consistent way WW wins this fight since the dawn of...this thread, might not be the way the fight goes. She'd probably slug it out while using speeds enough to dodge any attack.

And in any case, if the FF know anything about Diana before hand, I'd say that fighting someone who lives in Superman's neighborhood would be a dire circumstance from the get go.

Edit: Oh yeah, Wondy wins in a wash, imo. 9/10

Originally posted by Eman5805
I'm just an amused observer who doesn't own a single comic book,

Originally posted by Eman5805
but is it within Diana's character to speed blitz humans only two of home have enough durability to not be instantly bifurcated by WW's punches? I mean if some average joe crook is knocking off a jewelry store she doesn't FTL in and punch a hole in his chest or anything, right?

Otherwise that logic, WW'd(acting in her character) pull all of her punches too, and which means the speedbltiz thing that, has been the consistent way WW wins this fight since the dawn of...this thread, might not be the way the fight goes. She'd probably slug it out while using speeds enough to dodge any attack.

Originally posted by Badabing
Superman and Silver Surfer usually think of the safety of civilians and buildings first. Rarely do we see them go full on at the get go, due to their concerns. It's even been stated in comics. The VS Forum is an entirely different set up. No people, no buildings and the characters get general knowledge of their opponents. Superman and Silver Surfer wouldn't start a match with their strongest attack against Cyclops or Batman because they would kill them instantly. But it's plausible that they would go all out against each other since they have common knowledge and know it probably wouldn't result in an "insta-kill".

What I've explained isn't CIS......

.....It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold.

To be clear, characters like Superman, Silver Surfer, Wonder Woman, Sentry, Captain Marvel (DC), Thor, etc. can and will use all their attributes when the situation allows or is needed. This is still within their personalities since we've seen instances several times. This doesn't mean it's strictly power sets. The feats have to be supported by comic showings.

Originally posted by Eman5805
And in any case, if the FF know anything about Diana before hand, I'd say that fighting someone who lives in Superman's neighborhood would be a dire circumstance from the get go.

Edit: Oh yeah, Wondy wins in a wash, imo. 9/10

Originally posted by Badabing
I'd say she would only use a force bubble if there was no other way another person's life depended on it. Say a Skrull was holding a gun to her kid's head or something. In a vs battle, I would say she wouldn't.

Wonder Woman isn't a killer and Sue would know this as it's general knowledge. Now if the FF were up against Black Adam then she might consider it as a last resort. And when has Sue used a force bubble to the brain or internal organs? She didn't do it in WWH which was a perfect opportunity as Ben, Reed and Johnny were getting slapped around.

Anyway, we have a whole thread dedicated for this discussion.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t503207.html

Originally posted by Badabing
Wonder Woman isn't a killer and Sue would know this as it's general knowledge. Now if the FF were up against Black Adam then she might consider it as a last resort. And when has Sue used a force bubble to the brain or internal organs? She didn't do it in WWH which was a perfect opportunity as Ben, Reed and Johnny were getting slapped around.

Anyway, we have a whole thread dedicated for this discussion.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t503207.html

Invisible Woman used a force bubble in Wolverine's lungs in Enemy of the State when Wolverine invaded the Baxter building.

I think she put a bubble in Wolverine.

Almost positive.

Damn you OneDumbGo

Originally posted by Mindset
I think she put a bubble in Wolverine.

Almost positive.

Damn you OneDumbGo

What happen to Logan?

Originally posted by skygunner41
What happen to Logan?

Draco69: I now agree that the DC Earth population would know about Wonderwoman's Lasso. I was unaware of that tv interview. As for Invisible Woman's forcefields, people see a lot of heroes in action and don't necessarily know what's going on.

Example: Did Thor have knowledge that Juggernaut had an penetrable forcefield when they first fought? No. But Juggs had a bunch of appearances before their first fight where he's smashing through the public and having guns and shells bounce off him harmlessly. Onlookers might have guessed he was simply invincible... but did they guess that he had a magical forcefield? Or did Thor have to figure that out during their first fight through his sense of magic?

So how is it... that when we first throw two characters from different universes into a fight who have never met each other, how do we give these characters knowledge that randomly encountered foes in their own universe would have no knowledge of, e.g. Thor, Juggernaut? By your interpretation of the rules, when Superman fights Juggernaut for the first time, Superman knows Juggernaut has an impenetrable magic forcefield because it's effects have been witnessed in public (though not necessarily understood). How does that scenario make sense when Thor himself had to learn the hard way the first time he and Juggs fought?

Moving back to Invisible Woman, yes she's used her forcefields in public, much the same way that foes have failed to lift Mjolnir in public. Both instances occur often around a multitude of onlookers. But how many times do we see throughout their respective histories that first-time encountered foes consider Invisible Woman is the least powerful or how many times do we see Thor's foes keep trying to pick up his hammer?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Actually... since Brother Eye broadcast Wonderwoman's murder of Maxwell Lord all over the world... wouldn't the general population of DC Earth have the impression that Wonderwoman is, in fact, a murderer? I'm pretty sure everybody after Sacrifice was scared of Diana, including heroes, villains and the general populace alike. I'm not aware that Infinite Crisis or Final Crisis retconned that knowledge away from peoples' memories.

Yes, that's true. However, following Infinite Crisis, the public apparently forgot all about it and Diana was publicly exonerated for her crimes and the truth of what happened (i.e. Max Lord is an evil douchebag) was revealed.

It's not her first public killing anyway. She killed Medousa on live television before that.

The general public knows that Diana is willing to kill like fellow hero Hawkman.

Originally posted by kgkg
he is alive

In what sense , coma ,barely ...or completely unharmed?