Sidious or Dooku?

Please note: This is NOT a thread asking which one of these characters you like better.

This thread is to discuss which one was greater. I don't mean in terms of character or morals. I mean, which one of these two were stronger. Once upon a time, I would have immediately said Sidious because he was the master. But now, I truly wonder.

Nai Fohl and Darth Janus are two - among many - who believe that Count Dooku simply outclasses his master in all ways. I believe Dooku owns Sidious in lightsaber skills. I think that Dooku is the best duelist - per say - of the entire PT. But I don't believe he could beat Yoda, since he is inferior in the Force and speed.

Now. Some facts we all know include:

- Sidious was the master, whereas Dooku was the apprentice.
- Count Dooku is older than Sidious, and has more experience in dueling.
- Sidious is quoted on the Star Wars official site as being "the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times."
- Count Dooku is quoted on the Star Wars official site as being "one of the most revered Jedi in the Order" (I think - I might have gotten that confused with Wikipedia, but he does get complimented).
- Sidious seems to have a superior knowledge of the Force - at least of the Sith ways - as he is able to perform feats that Dooku has not done. Such as, Sidious can cloud the minds of the Jedi masters and the entire order.
- Count Dooku beat Mace Windu before TPM - and Windu defeated Darth Sidious.

These are just some of the facts. In my personal opinion, it goes like this. This is a list of Count Dooku's advantages over his master.

Count Dooku:
----------------
Superior dueling ability
Superior dueling experience
Superior dueling tactics
Superior dueling efficiency

Darth Sidious:
----------------
Superior Force connection
Superior Force knowledge
Superior Force mastery
Superior Raw power

Tell me what you think. And try not to let favoritisms - between Sidious or Dooku - interfere with your decisions. I might not like Revan, but he would own Dooku or Sidious in a fight - and I can admit that.

So...um, tell me what ya think.

Dooku pwns shizzle, dawg.

Yeah. Just for the sake of ruining what is already a ridiculous thread, I conclude that Saruman wins.

Dooku? Pah! You're joking me.

Why the hell would anyone bow to a Master who is less powerful than thou? Dooku would have revealed Palpatine's plans and used them as his own if he had been so high and mighty. No, Palpatine was far better than him.

This is where the 'Palps faked with Mace' argument comes in, but I won't indulge in another one of those silly arguments. My views: Palps faked it. Deal with my views, you can't change 'em.

Dooku might have been a better swordsman than Mace Windu, but not better than Master Yoda. He ran from the fight with his former mentor, if you recall, for whatever reasons you deem necessary (except 'he sensed clones coming,' that's bull). Palpatine disarmed Yoda and then flung him away, though he himself was flung too, but then again, Yoda and Palps are pretty equal.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Dooku? Pah! You're joking me.

Why the hell would anyone bow to a Master who is less powerful than thou? Dooku would have revealed Palpatine's plans and used them as his own if he had been so high and mighty. No, Palpatine was far better than him.

This is where the 'Palps faked with Mace' argument comes in, but I won't indulge in another one of those silly arguments. My views: Palps faked it. Deal with my views, you can't change 'em.

Dooku might have been a better swordsman than Mace Windu, but not better than Master Yoda. He ran from the fight with his former mentor, if you recall, for whatever reasons you deem necessary (except 'he sensed clones coming,' that's bull). Palpatine disarmed Yoda and then flung him away, though he himself was flung too, but then again, Yoda and Palps are pretty equal.

Palpatine tried to run before they even fought. At least Dooku fled after, carrying the Death Star plans on him. I am sure he wanted the Jedi to figure out Sidious' plans.

If Yoda was better than Dooku, Dooku would have died. If Sidious was better than Yoda, Yoda would have died.

"Anything can happen on the battlefield"

Yes Dooku is powerful, but i think his master is far more superior, his power is uncanny sure dooku has great duelings skills but sidious is far stronger.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
- Sidious was the master, whereas Dooku was the apprentice.

How often do I have to explain that ? Read it again (you can do that too, Rex):

Dooku couldn't take Sidious position at the point they were in at the moments because of simple facts:
- Dooku didn't have Sidious political contacts
- Dooku was known to be a force user therefore he couldn't have worked the way Sidious did
- Dooku didn't have the time to take Sidious out and than continue what his master did because he was more than 80 years old, Sidious was in an public position that Dooku couldn't have taken and if he would have ever tried to do so this would have had to be done before AotC - before the Jedi knew that he "switched sides".

- Count Dooku is older than Sidious, and has more experience in dueling.

True.

- Sidious is quoted on the Star Wars official site as being "the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times."

Did anyone say that Dooku is the greater Sith ?

- Count Dooku is quoted on the Star Wars official site as being "one of the most revered Jedi in the Order" (I think - I might have gotten that confused with Wikipedia, but he does get complimented).

Seems to be true...

- Sidious seems to have a superior knowledge of the Force - at least of the Sith ways - as he is able to perform feats that Dooku has not done. Such as, Sidious can cloud the minds of the Jedi masters and the entire order.

This is a stupid argument again. How should Dooku have done that ? The Jedi knew that he was a force user. What should he have said: "Oh...hello master Yoda. I lost my connection to the force somehow. Ups !" ? At least you have no proof that Dooku couldn't have done that.

- Count Dooku beat Mace Windu before TPM - and Windu defeated Darth Sidious.

Think about it...

These are just some of the facts. In my personal opinion, it goes like this. This is a list of Count Dooku's advantages over his master.

The point is that we have proof for Dooku being superior in the points you listed where we have no proof of the points you say that Sidious is superior. Therefore Dooku will always defeat Sidious. Or just to make it easier for you:

Maybe Sidious is the superior force user but he can't do nothing with the force to take Dooku out (as Dooku can deflect force lightning) so a confrontration between them would end with a lightsaber duel which means that Dooku would win because he's superior to Sidious in lightsaber combat. Got it know ? I hope so...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Read it again (you can do that too, Rex):

Hey, whatever gets them to shut up, right? 😉

But sidious's force lightning is superior, yoda almost didn't block it. Lightning would kill dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Nhilus
But sidious's force lightning is superior, yoda almost didn't block it. Lightning would kill dooku.

The same lightning Sidious used more than 30 seconds against Luke without killing him ? I don't think so...

Originally posted by Sorgo
If Yoda was better than Dooku, Dooku would have died. If Sidious was better than Yoda, Yoda would have died.

That's some bad logic right there. I mean, Dooku IS better than Obi-wan, yet Obi-wan does not die whenever they fight. You don't need to kill the other opponent to prove you're better. Another example: Darth Maul was better than Obi-wan at the time of their duel, yet Obi-wan killed Maul. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
That's some bad logic right there. I mean, Dooku IS better than Obi-wan, yet Obi-wan does not die whenever they fight. You don't need to kill the other opponent to prove you're better. Another example: Darth Maul was better than Obi-wan at the time of their duel, yet Obi-wan killed Maul. 😮‍💨

SnakeEyes has you here Sorgo.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The same lightning Sidious used more than 30 seconds against Luke without killing him ? I don't think so...

Although I agree Dooku is better then Sidious this argument just doesn't make any sense. It is clear that Palpatine didn't go all out on Luke, he wanted to torture him before the kill.

On the post you quoted...

What are they going to do throw lightning at lightning, hardly Dooku would block it with his lightsaber. Sidious would never take him down using the force. He's not that much more powerful with the force.

It's a f*ckin movie, the reasoning behind these scenes are three years apart in the studio. I'm pretty sure the writers just made the characters do what they did for reasons best fitting them at the time.

Dooku was a new character we don't know to much about. They couldn't have him running away from Yoda at first sight, he'd look weak, and AOTC wouldn't do as good in the box office. That's why he appeared worse off in ROTS.

Palpatine we all new would be Emperor, we knew he'd win. They had to downplay his character a bit in his fight with Yoda.

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
That's some bad logic right there. I mean, Dooku IS better than Obi-wan, yet Obi-wan does not die whenever they fight. You don't need to kill the other opponent to prove you're better. Another example: Darth Maul was better than Obi-wan at the time of their duel, yet Obi-wan killed Maul. 😮‍💨

I have bad logic? If Darth Maul was better, he would have killed Obi Wan. If Darth Maul didn't see Obi Wan fly into the air and go behind him, then he cannot be that good, now can he?

Obi Wan and Anakin were on par at the Mustafar fight. Obi Wan never won the fight because Vader kills Obi Wan later on. Unless someone dies, you have not won, you are just better.

saruman is the bomb sids is a pruned plum

Originally posted by Captain REX
Dooku? Pah! You're joking me.

Why the hell would anyone bow to a Master who is less powerful than thou? Dooku would have revealed Palpatine's plans and used them as his own if he had been so high and mighty. No, Palpatine was far better than him.

This is where the 'Palps faked with Mace' argument comes in, but I won't indulge in another one of those silly arguments. My views: Palps faked it. Deal with my views, you can't change 'em.

Dooku might have been a better swordsman than Mace Windu, but not better than Master Yoda. He ran from the fight with his former mentor, if you recall, for whatever reasons you deem necessary (except 'he sensed clones coming,' that's bull). Palpatine disarmed Yoda and then flung him away, though he himself was flung too, but then again, Yoda and Palps are pretty equal.

I like this interpretation. Except I think Mace really did beat Palpatine because Palpatine underestimated him. Sidious really gets no praise around here.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The same lightning Sidious used more than 30 seconds against Luke without killing him ? I don't think so...

Yeah, I'd like to point out something that might testify to Dooku's Force prowess.

In AOTC, he used exclusively one handed lightning. He was able to stalemate Yoda from a decent range away. He then resorted to lightsaber combat. (Now just a personal note, it doesn't seem quote like the heated battle between these two as say, Yoda and Sidious. Also keep in mind that most of Yoda versus Sidious was CGI or a stuntman in a mask)

Sidious, using two handed lightning at point blank range, was defeated(!) by Yoda. And yes, I say defeated because Yoda was at the disadvantage, on the edge of the pod and was leaning backwards before he reversed the flow of the energy and the resulting blast blew them both away. The look on Sidious' face (Like "OMG... u fekkin n00b!"😉 was not one of victory. Sidious merely one because Yoda's lightsaber was gone and Yoda couldn't find something to grab on to when he fell.

So how is it that Sidious is "obviously superior" in Force powers when he was obviously overpowered by Yoda, whereas Dooku never was? The only thing you have to grab on are unsupported quotes from wherever.

It wasn't that Dooku stalemated Yoda it was that Yoda took everything Dooku threw at him and deflected it.

Dooku shot him with lightning and tried to crush him, Yoda blocked it all but never attacked Dooku with the force, he just reflected Dooku's attacks.

Yoda and Dooku didn't stalemate, Yoda just wasn't going to attack with the force. Yoda then continued to best Dooku in lightsaber combat, Dooku knowing he couldn't beat Yoda ran, and I think Sidious could beat Dooku in lightsaber combat, Dooku just fights more gracefully, whereas Sidious fights to win as quickly as possible. Top lightsaber combatants of the PT Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, and Anakin I think would be next in line.

Originally posted by Apex
It wasn't that Dooku stalemated Yoda it was that Yoda took everything Dooku threw at him and deflected it.

Dooku shot him with lightning and tried to crush him, Yoda blocked it all but never attacked Dooku with the force, he just reflected Dooku's attacks.

Yoda and Dooku didn't stalemate, Yoda just wasn't going to attack with the force. Yoda then continued to best Dooku in lightsaber combat, Dooku knowing he couldn't beat Yoda ran, and I think Sidious could beat Dooku in lightsaber combat, Dooku just fights more gracefully, whereas Sidious fights to win as quickly as possible. Top lightsaber combatants of the PT Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, and Anakin I think would be next in line.

When it comes to the Force, Dooku stalemated Yoda, not Yoda overcame Dooku's force lightning and reflected it back enough to even budge the dark lord. Yes, Yoda didn't use any aggressive techniques. That is true. But he didn't gain any ground during the Force duelling, and he didn't gain any advantage. But against Sidious, he actually turned things against Sidious, and from quite a disadvantage, too. You must see that much.

And to say Yoda bested Dooku in saber combat is an opinion at best, and unsupported opinion at worst. There was no give on either side, and Dooku DID run, but with the clones assailing the planet he had other priorities. Obviously when the battle went on with no clear sign of a victory Dooku thought he couldn't waste his time when he had the Death Star plans in his pocket, and he ran.

And the last part is your opinion. Fair enough. You've never given me a reason to deny you even that, Apex. I disagree, but for reasons that have been gone over many many times.