Sidious or Dooku?

So. Have a wonderful evening/afternoon/morning everyone.

*sigh*

You guys argue in circles to often.

When you argue or debate - act like a professional. Or at least an adult. If you are, or acted like one, you'd see that there's a big chance you're not right. There's also a big chance I'm not right. Lucas is the only right one in this.

I have acted professional. I've insulted your arguments, and your arguments only. That is perfectly legal in the realm of debate.

I treat my musings as opinions only. Which is, sadly, what yours is as well. I know it's probably hard for you to hear, but it is true. You're good. But you have absolutely no sense of etiquette or plain manners. You and Sorgo, as skilled as you are, need to learn that.

I didn't add personal musings. I refuted YOUR musings.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Hell. It's just all opinions. I don't have the real authority to say you're wrong. You may, in retrospect, very well be right.

But stop thinking Sidious is weak. I've never seen you ONCE defend the guy or his accomplishments. I'm beginning to believe you think Gunray could beat him.

I never once said Sidious is weak. When you say Mace is a better fighter, but not a better duelist, you're grasping... and I'm pointing it out.

Dooku and Sidious are good. But Sidious was the master, and Dooku's own fear and awe of Sidious are enough to warrant me that Dooku was obviously not so confident to take him on. That and just a plan lack of damn ambition.

Yes. Again, nobody said Dooku is the better Sith, because Dooku was ALREADY visible to the Jedi Order, Sidious was NOT. Dooku becoming Sith Lord would be next to impossible to succeed with.

I'm pointing out that you're twisting parameters to fit your case.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. If that is your argument, Sidious bested Yoda fair and square. The two combatants didn't sit down and discuss the rules either. Sidious won fair and square with Yoda, then, if that is your logic.

There is a difference between being the superior combatant and then the duelist. Everything Mace did with a lightsaber, Sidious countered. Sidious was also on the offensive for the majority of the fight, forcing Mace on the defensive. Mace KICKED Sidious's saber out of his hand.

By this, you're saying Mace is the better duelist. I'm saying he was the better fighter, to be sure. But no proof to indicate he was the superior duelist.

2. Again. I never said Dooku wasn't toying. I said it was, and I would very much like to believe that. But part of Dooku's plan wasn't to get his arms amputated or beheaded - like Sidious didn't want to get his face melted.

When will you people understand that Sidious' face did not melt from Lightning? Did Yoda melt and turn into green Yoda goop when he was fried? And i am pretty sure i didn't see Luke melt either.

Saying that Sidious' face melted from lightning is just pure absurdity.

I am guessing his eyes turned yellow from the Lightning as well, Darth Somebody?

And no, it wasn't Dooku's plan to get his shit chopped up but he was using a different Form and was going too easy on Anakin. Dooku wanted to be taken in. You think the Council would not let Dooku go if he persuaded them? Dooku was a highly respected Jedi and he is very charasmatic and persuasive. Him getting away from the council is not a large difficulty he was worried about. All i know is he had several chances to rape Anakin but resisted.

(ahem) Yoda was only hit directly without offering resistance to, Palpatine's Lightning once, and only very briefly, so no melting is going to take place.

As for Luke not melting, well, either Palpatine wasn't giving it his full effort or the Movie makers didn't have the availability to melt his face, or maybe the idea hadn't even occured to them that he might have melted.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Your last statement is where you reveal all of your arrogance. You assume because you and an assortment of people - including Sorgo - agree on something, it must be fact. It's not. You made an opinion. An insult. TO ME.

You show your own arrogance by doing this and believing ppl will respect your wishes by asking them in the manner of insulting their own intelligemce.

1. I don't think that I am a b*tchy whiner. I'm simply requesting that he keep his cool and use some manners. I didn't demand that he do it. But Tangible, rules are placed for people to abide by them. I kept my cool. I was polite to Illustrious when he was not to me. He may very well be the superior debater. But I've seen that his dislike of Sidious is very much reflected in all of his statements. He constantly discredits any source that may even insinuate Sidious being powerful or a great Sith Lord. To Illustrious, it seems Sidious's many accomplishments are nothing - and that just because something has the title of Ancient Sith, they are necessarily greater to every extent. Which is, of course, not true.

2. To him, insulting one's argument is perfectly legal. Perhaps it is. It is similar to the American First Amendment - where it states that everyone has the freedom of speech. It doesn't mean you ought to necessarily practice and abuse that freedom. Illustrious was acting both arrogant and completely immature. His statements, and even you, have just admitted that. Illustrious may be more liked than myself around here. And his opinion may reflect those of the higher up debaters - such as Darth Janus and Nai Fohl - who are both admitted Dooku fans. Now. If you wish to critique my argument, then please do so. But spare me the lecture and attempt to try to make it sound like I was the one to blame for Illustrious's outbursts. Because I wasn't. His frustration and his immaturity are products of his own emotions and feelings. I do not force him to think or behave the way he does. What Illustrious did was 100 percent his fault - like everyone else.

And please. I'm not hurt. I'm simply stating that what he is doing is morally and ethically wrong. Ethics are again, based on opinion. So, as I said. And arrogance? Am I arrogant? If I demanded that Illustrious act kindly - without politely asking - then I would be arrogant to assume I had the authority to FORCE him to do anything. I didn't. Because I can't force him to do anything.

Originally posted by Sorgo
When will you people understand that Sidious' face did not melt from Lightning? Did Yoda melt and turn into green Yoda goop when he was fried? And i am pretty sure i didn't see Luke melt either.

Saying that Sidious' face melted from lightning is just pure absurdity.

I am guessing his eyes turned yellow from the Lightning as well, Darth Somebody?

And no, it wasn't Dooku's plan to get his shit chopped up but he was using a different Form and was going too easy on Anakin. Dooku wanted to be taken in. You think the Council would not let Dooku go if he persuaded them? Dooku was a highly respected Jedi and he is very charasmatic and persuasive. Him getting away from the council is not a large difficulty he was worried about. All i know is he had several chances to rape Anakin but resisted.

Lol. You're mis-understanding. I didn't say Sidious got his face melted by the lightning. I said sparks did shoot off of it, but I don't recall or seeing any reason why the lightning was to blame. I stated that other sources cite the lightning as a reason for Sidious's disfiguration. I do not believe it was.

The Star Wars databank said that when Sidious summoned the Force lightning he used against Mace, he did it suddenly and with such power that the Dark Side energies within him were so intense and so powerful that they virtually disfigured his body. Hence why the lightning crawled up his face and head without being necessarily reflected from Mace. At that moment, I think Sidious was simply the pure embodiment of the Dark Side to the extent where it just melted his face and hands.

Secondly, as I stated before - Dooku didn't go all out on Anakin. It is obvious when Dooku bested Obi-Wan with sheer ease, and Obi-Wan later went on to slay Grievous and defeat Anakin. Suddenly, Dooku is then trying to persuade Anakin to use his Dark side feelings. He did, and outmaneuvered Dooku at the very end. Had Dooku not been ordered to go easy on Anakin by Palpatine, I'm certain he would have bested him.

Illustrious.

1. Just please drop it. This argument is going in circles - and it's off topic. Simply treat people with respect that all humans deserve. It's all I ask. Whether or not I am wrong in your eyes doesn't excuse the attitude you're showing.

2. Then I suppose when people say Yoda was the better duelist with the Sidious debate, they're also grasping? Because even if Yoda could outfight Sidious, he still lost. Which is what you're saying in regards to Mace. Even if Sidious was the greater duelist, he still lost. I'm not grasping. I'm merely stating a fact. Mace won and should be attributed the victory for the battle. I never ONCE denied that, Illustrious. So no, I'm NOT grasping. I went out of my way to state that Mace did outfight and outmaneuver Sidious. But not through superior dueling ability. I am simply saying - Mace shouldn't be attributed to always beating Sidious in the versus thread and that he is the superior duelist. Because he wasn't. I'm not grasping at all, if you comprehend what my point was.

3. Dooku vanished. It was stated during Attack of the Clones. He vanished completely. The Jedi knew he was alive, but not where he was or what he was doing. He re-appeared at the head of the Separatist movement. Sidious could completely shield himself from the Jedi Order. Completely. Only at his desire did he choose to reveal himself. Which is a very talented and very skilled ability that deserves the respect.

I do not know if you're trying to undermine Sidious's ability to do as such or if you're legitimately saying Dooku was incapable of doing it. But regardless, it was a great talent that Dooku apparently never did. Like I said. I'm not slandering Dooku. But he really hasn't done anything THAT I RECALL (which I may very well be wrong) that would ever warrant me to say he had Sidious's strength in the Force - let ALONE in the Dark Side.

I have one thing to respond to this, as I have very little reason to pick apart scraps.

1. Just please drop it. This argument is going in circles - and it's off topic. Simply treat people with respect that all humans deserve. It's all I ask. Whether or not I am wrong in your eyes doesn't excuse the attitude you're showing.

Err hem..

2. To him, insulting one's argument is perfectly legal. Perhaps it is. It is similar to the American First Amendment - where it states that everyone has the freedom of speech. It doesn't mean you ought to necessarily practice and abuse that freedom. Illustrious was acting both arrogant and completely immature. His statements, and even you, have just admitted that. Illustrious may be more liked than myself around here. And his opinion may reflect those of the higher up debaters - such as Darth Janus and Nai Fohl - who are both admitted Dooku fans. Now. If you wish to critique my argument, then please do so. But spare me the lecture and attempt to try to make it sound like I was the one to blame for Illustrious's outbursts. Because I wasn't. His frustration and his immaturity are products of his own emotions and feelings. I do not force him to think or behave the way he does. What Illustrious did was 100 percent his fault - like everyone else.

I can insult your argument all I want. In fact, that's what you DO in a debate. You destroy the other argument, especially if it makes no logical sense, period.

Your attitude, apparently thinking that you are somehow the victim, is both annoying as hell and unnecessary. It does not fuel good debate, it only shows your ignorance to what a debate really is. If you wish for me to insult your person, you can ask for me to do that anytime. But I have not yet done so. So keep your comments and whining attitude to yourself.

You said it yourself: YOU don't think you are a whiner. Others do. So drop it.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Admiral Ackbar, again, you're inferring.

I didn't state Sidious was the superior duelist. I said that Windu used a kick to disarm him, not any outmaneuvering of the blade. I said this is not enough to warrant Mace as the superior DUELIST. Then, like I said, Palpatine never broke through Mace's defenses either.

Hence why I did not label HIM the greater duelist, either.

So what? There is nothing wrong with using a kick or a punch. If mace was smart enough to figure it out(kick, disarm, destroy lightsaber) then it does make him the better fighter.

^^Very true. No matter what means are necessary, in a one-on-one duel, whoever is victorious is the better fighter.

No, because our neighborhood Somebody is attempting to argue that that makes Mace the better fighter instead of the better duelist.

Whatever, he can think what he wants, I don't feel like refuting poorly thought out arguments anymore.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I have one thing to respond to this, as I have very little reason to pick apart scraps.

Err hem..

I can insult your argument all I want. In fact, that's what you DO in a debate. You destroy the other argument, especially if it makes no logical sense, period.

Your attitude, apparently thinking that you are somehow the victim, is both annoying as hell and unnecessary. It does not fuel good debate, it only shows your ignorance to what a debate really is. If you wish for me to insult your person, you can ask for me to do that anytime. But I have not yet done so. So keep your comments and whining attitude to yourself.

You said it yourself: [b]YOU don't think you are a whiner. Others do. So drop it. [/B]

Again. You assume to give me an order. Illustrious, you're not God. Don't talk to me as if I'm beneath you. Because generally, you'll simply receive the opposite. So do yourself a favor and request. But don't order. It's actually sort of pathetic that you'd try and do it. And then think I'd obey you.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, because our neighborhood Somebody is attempting to argue that that makes Mace the better fighter instead of the better duelist.

Whatever, he can think what he wants, I don't feel like refuting poorly thought out arguments anymore.

Good. Then we have no problem.

There is a difference, by the way. Jet Li may be a better fighter than Ewan MacGregor. But does that mean he could defeat him in a battle with swords? Now do you see my point. Jet Li would kick Ewan's ass in a physical battle - but not in a contest of who is the better duelist.

Which is again, my point.

Admiral Ackbar, I have stated continously - many, many - times that Mace outfought Palpatine, so either you intentionally didn't look or you're trying to go out of your own way to defend Mace when he doesn't need to be defended. Mace won the fight. He pulled a smart move. I'm not saying he cheated or that he won unfairly. There's no such thing as a fair fight. But he did not outDUEL Palpatine. Palpatine and Mace were very much equals. It may take you time to notice, but you'll see that Mace and Sidious never broke through one another's defenses. Mace used a spinning kick to disarm Sidious, instread of using his blade. Again, this isn't to slam Mace or take the steam off his victory. He won. But that doesn't make him the superior duelist. Chances are, if they fought again - and Sidious openly used the Force BEFORE being knocked on his ass - he would've beaten him.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Again. You assume to give me an order. Illustrious, you're not God. Don't talk to me as if I'm beneath you. Because generally, you'll simply receive the opposite. So do yourself a favor and request. But don't order. It's actually sort of pathetic that you'd try and do it. And then think I'd obey you.

Seriously though, I side with Illustrious on this one. Not about the Sidious thing, but about the debate thing.

Your asking us to respect your thoughts:

1. Over the internet? Are you insane? Noone respects anyone over the inernet if you don't know that person in real life. It's just not Karma.

2. Your polite. Stop being so formal, I tried it before, got me nowhere. Don't ask people (again over the internet) to treat your comments in an orderly, sincere fashion. Human nature shows us we won't.

3. Debates ARE meant to be pulled apart by the oppostion. Look at the Presidential campaigns. Tearing at each other's personal lives. We can't really do that here, so instead we pick apart each other's way of talking, and perspective of the situation.

Stop being so nice and start talking like Samuel Jackson in Pulp Fiction. (Hey! Look, it's Mace. OOOOHHHH!)

So use profanity every other word? Lol.

Every FIVE words.

You know what I mean.

Mothaf*cka