Sidious or Dooku?

Janus, I'm too tired to argue with you. I'm also sick and tired of all the namecalling and sadistic bashing you, Illustrious, and Nai give me. You, who complain about how slow the Moderators are for punishing rule breakers - and then go around and break one yourself. You're becoming a hypocrite. And that sickens me.

This is a post from Darth Faunus. He puts both Sidious and Dooku in their place. He has NO evident bias (even though he does admit he likes Dooku better). Look at this. And maybe the truth will ring loud and clear about your OWN attitudes - as well as mine.

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Posted by Darth Faunus:

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

Political Manipulation and the Ilk

This came up in many of the arguments, and however unrelated to a duel in-and-of itself, the debate upon which it was started should be concluded.

Sidious needs no introduction, but I'll give one anyway.

He manipulated the entire Jedi Order. Cool. They'd been through a millenium of relative peace, one without the constant Sith threat. Naturally, they were unprepared for such an event. However, that does not take the steam out of his accomplishments. He DID sneak past such Jedi as Yoda, Mace Windu, among others, keeping himself undetected as a Sith Lord for more than a decade, up until the point when he revealed his secret himself. He also manipulated the entire Republic/Imperial Senate into following him in his every course of action. Now, it was a time of war, but he was remarkably successful nonetheless.

Dooku was a political idealist, and a shrewd man in his own right. He saw the coming darkness, the corruption. He saw the signs of war, of chaos, when the Jedi Council in all their wisdom could not. He alone among all the Jedi discovered the presence of the Sith, and ferreted out Sidious himself. The only reasons in my mind that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious was:

1) To make his dream of a stable, controlled, uncorrupted Galactic government true and solid.

2) After the above was established, he sought to learn the ways of the Sith, who, in his mind, had the right idea.

Now, I'm not really in my mental peak here, so I can't exactly bring up too many other supportive facts for Dooku. I'm positive that there are a couple of others, but I'm sure Janus could put in some of these.

Now, the important things. . .

Dueling Capability

The superior here is somewhat apparent. But what appalls me is the utter disregard for Sidious' skill in itself. Some of you rate Sidious' saber skills so low it's ridiculous.

People, he may not be superior to Dooku, or Yoda, or Mace, for that matter, but he in no way is a poor duelist. He killed three Council-level Jedi Masters in under ten seconds. And nobody say that they weren't ready, that's bull. They were the ones standing there, sabers ignited, ready to bring in the "Chancellor", who they now knew as Darth Sidious, through means of force, if necessary. They may have underestimated him, but no, they weren't completely unprepared.

Now, for the people who think Mace could defeat Sidious; not rwally. Possible? hell yeah, it happened. Likely? Meh. If you want to use that logic, then Sidious WOULD defeat Yoda. Vader WOULD defeat Luke, and vice-versa. Anakin WOULD defeat Dooku. The list goes on and on. . .

Mace won because Sidious, in a completely uncharacteristic turn, underestimated Mace. he believed that he could defeat him as easily as the others. How wrong he was. now, it was Windu's skill that brought him out of the duel as a victor. I will NEVER debate against Mace's skill. Ever. But to say that he would, without a doubt, defeat Sidious, is just stupidity. But, back on topic now.

I personally believe that Dooku is the superior duelist. but not by the ridiculously huge margins that some here imply.

Force Power/Mastery

This is also rather close. In terms of raw power they are probably pretty close. Dooku was, afterall, considered to contain a vast amount of potential. Both Yoda and Mace considered him a terrible loss to the Order. And Sidious is, well, Sidious, the Emperor, Dark Lord, etc., etc. Whatever.

As for mastery, I'd give this to Sidious, but not by anything much. He'd probably studided Sith lore and been under the apprenticeship of Lord Plaguies for the majority of his life, sixty-five years. Now, Dooku was a Jedi for seven decades, along with thirteen years of Sith practice. So he had a fair amount of practice.

Now, I don't know for sure who'd come out on top. I can only make an educated estimate, which at the time is not something that I can give. I'll take Illustrious' take on this.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Janus, I'm too tired to argue with you. I'm also sick and tired of all the namecalling and sadistic bashing you, Illustrious, and Nai give me. You, who complain about how slow the Moderators are for punishing rule breakers - and then go around and break one yourself. You're becoming a hypocrite. And that sickens me.

This is a post from Darth Faunus. He puts both Sidious and Dooku in their place. He has NO evident bias (even though he does admit he likes Dooku better). Look at this. And maybe the truth will ring loud and clear about your OWN attitudes - as well as mine.

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Posted by Darth Faunus:

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

Political Manipulation and the Ilk

This came up in many of the arguments, and however unrelated to a duel in-and-of itself, the debate upon which it was started should be concluded.

Sidious needs no introduction, but I'll give one anyway.

He manipulated the entire Jedi Order. Cool. They'd been through a millenium of relative peace, one without the constant Sith threat. Naturally, they were unprepared for such an event. However, that does not take the steam out of his accomplishments. He DID sneak past such Jedi as Yoda, Mace Windu, among others, keeping himself undetected as a Sith Lord for more than a decade, up until the point when he revealed his secret himself. He also manipulated the entire Republic/Imperial Senate into following him in his every course of action. Now, it was a time of war, but he was remarkably successful nonetheless.

Dooku was a political idealist, and a shrewd man in his own right. He saw the coming darkness, the corruption. He saw the signs of war, of chaos, when the Jedi Council in all their wisdom could not. He alone among all the Jedi discovered the presence of the Sith, and ferreted out Sidious himself. The only reasons in my mind that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious was:

1) To make his dream of a stable, controlled, uncorrupted Galactic government true and solid.

2) After the above was established, he sought to learn the ways of the Sith, who, in his mind, had the right idea.

Now, I'm not really in my mental peak here, so I can't exactly bring up too many other supportive facts for Dooku. I'm positive that there are a couple of others, but I'm sure Janus could put in some of these.

Now, the important things. . .

Dueling Capability

The superior here is somewhat apparent. But what appalls me is the utter disregard for Sidious' skill in itself. Some of you rate Sidious' saber skills so low it's ridiculous.

People, he may not be superior to Dooku, or Yoda, or Mace, for that matter, but he in no way is a poor duelist. He killed three Council-level Jedi Masters in under ten seconds. And nobody say that they weren't ready, that's bull. They were the ones standing there, sabers ignited, ready to bring in the "Chancellor", who they now knew as Darth Sidious, through means of force, if necessary. They may have underestimated him, but no, they weren't completely unprepared.

Now, for the people who think Mace could defeat Sidious; not rwally. Possible? hell yeah, it happened. Likely? Meh. If you want to use that logic, then Sidious WOULD defeat Yoda. Vader WOULD defeat Luke, and vice-versa. Anakin WOULD defeat Dooku. The list goes on and on. . .

Mace won because Sidious, in a completely uncharacteristic turn, underestimated Mace. he believed that he could defeat him as easily as the others. How wrong he was. now, it was Windu's skill that brought him out of the duel as a victor. I will NEVER debate against Mace's skill. Ever. But to say that he would, without a doubt, defeat Sidious, is just stupidity. But, back on topic now.

I personally believe that Dooku is the superior duelist. but not by the ridiculously huge margins that some here imply.

Force Power/Mastery

This is also rather close. In terms of raw power they are probably pretty close. Dooku was, afterall, considered to contain a vast amount of potential. Both Yoda and Mace considered him a terrible loss to the Order. And Sidious is, well, Sidious, the Emperor, Dark Lord, etc., etc. Whatever.

As for mastery, I'd give this to Sidious, but not by anything much. He'd probably studided Sith lore and been under the apprenticeship of Lord Plaguies for the majority of his life, sixty-five years. Now, Dooku was a Jedi for seven decades, along with thirteen years of Sith practice. So he had a fair amount of practice.

Now, I don't know for sure who'd come out on top. I can only make an educated estimate, which at the time is not something that I can give. I'll take Illustrious' take on this.

Whoa, you have some problems there, buddy. I haven't called you any names last time I checked. I didn't even address you in this entire thread. And if I am "sadistically" bashing you (Which isn't the case) then perhaps you should seek counseling and not come to KMC or ignore my posts.

Jeez, no need to get all victimized over a debate, man.

You call me a fanboy who possesses no knowledge of anything outside Sidious. Really, Janus. If I need to get the exact words, I will. So don't act so ridiculous. You know what you did, you know you were wrong, and it was hypocritical. But the main point is Faunus's post, which you amazingly overlooked - considering it was 3/4s of that entire address.

So. Read it and enjoy. And even he states you're going into bias. So it's not JUST me. Deal with the fact that not even you are immune to bias, Janus.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
You call me a fanboy who possesses no knowledge of anything outside Sidious. Really, Janus. If I need to get the exact words, I will. So don't act so ridiculous. You know what you did, you know you were wrong, and it was hypocritical. But the main point is Faunus's post, which you amazingly overlooked - considering it was 3/4s of that entire address.

So. Read it and enjoy. And even he states you're going into bias. So it's not JUST me. Deal with the fact that not even you are immune to bias, Janus.

No, I already read it earlier, thanks. And if Faunus was so worried about my bias, he would not have defered to me on facts, would he?

And the point remains that you are only here to argue for Anakin and Sidious 99% of the time and it almost always involves you debating in circles with flimsy logic and you actually DID start the name calling even with Nai!

And if -God forbid- Faunus were to come back and accuse me of bias. Fine, whatever. That does not automatically negate everything I've said about you and your approach that was true. You are antagonistic, terrible to debate with, and your bias is actually your sole reasoning foundation.

We make fun of poor logic, and if you produce poor logic consistently enough, you'll simply be marked by the populace as a fanboy. One who can not reconcile that his character is not as high up as he would like.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
You call me a fanboy who possesses no knowledge of anything outside Sidious. Really, Janus. If I need to get the exact words, I will. So don't act so ridiculous. You know what you did, you know you were wrong, and it was hypocritical. But the main point is Faunus's post, which you amazingly overlooked - considering it was 3/4s of that entire address.

So. Read it and enjoy. And even he states you're going into bias. So it's not JUST me. Deal with the fact that not even you are immune to bias, Janus.

You're a Whiner. When i first came here, i got my ass ragged on and i didn't whine about it like a schoolgirl with a scrapped knee. Go home, son.

Palpatine is the Master, Dooku is the apprentice.
Nuff said.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
No, I already read it earlier, thanks. And if Faunus was so worried about my bias, he would not have defered to me on facts, would he?

And the point remains that you are only here to argue for Anakin and Sidious 99% of the time and it almost always involves you debating in circles with flimsy logic and you actually DID start the name calling even with Nai!

And if -God forbid- Faunus were to come back and accuse me of bias. Fine, whatever. That does not automatically negate everything I've said about you and your approach that was true. You are antagonistic, terrible to debate with, and your bias is actually your sole reasoning foundation.

1. Faunus did not defend you per say. You and Nai - moreso him - are insinuating Sidious is a horrible duelist and he likes to catch people off guard. Notice in his declarations regarding the Jedi Masters, they were prepared to battle Darth Sidious - but they failed. They were not taken by surprise, as you both said. So there, he did not defend you. He also didn't defend you by stating that Sidious probably has the superior Force mastery and that his dueling skills - while not on par with Dooku's - are not sub-par by any means.

2. Nai started it with me, Janus. The words goddamn fanboy ring any bell? I thought so. No, he started it. So don't try to pin the blame on me. It won't quite work.

3. As for the Anakin and Sidious comment, I suggest you return to school and learn your percentages again. I do not defend Anakin that often. Like you, I defend those whom I think would win. You go to Sidious threads 99 percent to bash him. You've only defended him once I recall. I told you, originally, Sidious would lose this fight. I continued to say that. But when you all started bashing him - notice I still continued the original perception of his inevitable defeat - I defended him stating that he would not be defeated as easily as you say. And then the comments about Dooku being able to take Sidious by himself were put into play, thereupon - I defended Sidious without insulting Count Dooku and also managing to state that Count Dooku is beyond Sidious in saber skills and so forth.

If you will kindly review my posts - and then yours - you will notice I manage to "defend" both parties without insulting or belittling the other. Notice how you do not, and like to believe Count Dooku simply outclasses his master.

Logically, I am in the clear. Review my posts again. You will not find the obvious bias and dislike for Sidious OR Count Dooku on my posts, where you can find one or the other on yours.

Thanks.

So. Sorgo, Illustrious, Nai, and Janus. I'm obviously not changing your opinion - nor are you changing mine. That wasn't my goal, and I doubt it was yours. You all four outclass me as debaters and point-makers, that much is obvious. Well, Illustrious, Nai, and Janus do. I don't know about Sorgo. He tends to just rant and fume and abuse the rules to his heart's content, but anyway.

I'm not leaving. And you insulting me just breaks the rules. And you might get caught for it one day. So. Stop doing it. That's all I ask. And in return, you'll get no comments from me. Faunus even hinted that he had seen all of this bias. If I may use a statement...

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Posted by Darth Faunus:

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

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Read the second paragraph. Yes, gentlemen. Even YOU all have your personal bias. And it tends to show into your statements even as it does with my own. Read Faunus's statements. He doesn't glorify Sidious. Nor does he glorify Dooku. He simply states the closest thing to the truth in this entire debate. Yes. I believe Faunus has a better opinion than you or myself. And if you will look, he even prefers Dooku! And still he says you are taking it out of context and it's getting out of hand.

So. Face the truth and see that maybe it's not just me who has the "problem" or the "bias". Maybe you have it too. Think about it.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
So. Sorgo, Illustrious, Nai, and Janus. I'm obviously not changing your opinion - nor are you changing mine. That wasn't my goal, and I doubt it was yours. You all four outclass me as debaters and point-makers, that much is obvious. Well, Illustrious, Nai, and Janus do. I don't know about Sorgo. He tends to just rant and fume and abuse the rules to his heart's content, but anyway.

I'm not leaving. And you insulting me just breaks the rules. And you might get caught for it one day. So. Stop doing it. That's all I ask. And in return, you'll get no comments from me. Faunus even hinted that he had seen all of this bias. If I may use a statement...

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Posted by Darth Faunus:

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

----------------------

Read the second paragraph. Yes, gentlemen. Even YOU all have your personal bias. And it tends to show into your statements even as it does with my own. Read Faunus's statements. He doesn't glorify Sidious. Nor does he glorify Dooku. He simply states the closest thing to the truth in this entire debate. Yes. I believe Faunus has a better opinion than you or myself. And if you will look, he even prefers Dooku! And still he says you are taking it out of context and it's getting out of hand.

So. Face the truth and see that maybe it's not just me who has the "problem" or the "bias". Maybe you have it too. Think about it.

Don't take this shit to heart, kid. It's gettin' sad now.

Why the hell are you debating about who started with name calling, really its pathetic, debate about the topic or stop debating... Seriously people. And if anybody says "he started it" again I'm going to kill myself.

Originally posted by Fishy
Why the hell are you debating about who started with name calling, really its pathetic, debate about the topic or stop debating... Seriously people. And if anybody says "he started it" again I'm going to kill myself.

I seriously hope that was exaggeration. If you off yourself, we'll have to live with the guilt. And then it's one less person to participate in my new ongoing thread.

Originally posted by Fishy
Why the hell are you debating about who started with name calling, really its pathetic, debate about the topic or stop debating... Seriously people. And if anybody says "he started it" again I'm going to kill myself.

He started it.

I'll arrange the rope for you, Fishy. 😛

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I seriously hope that was exaggeration. If you off yourself, we'll have to live with the guilt. And then it's one less person to participate in my new ongoing thread.

Of course it was, but its a waste of a potentially good thread to argue about who started it... Its better to just ignore it Janus or post a picture and then ignore it, cause this is annoying as hell.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
When it comes to the Force, Dooku stalemated Yoda, not Yoda overcame Dooku's force lightning and reflected it back enough to even budge the dark lord. Yes, Yoda didn't use any aggressive techniques. That is true. But he didn't gain any ground during the Force duelling, and he didn't gain any advantage. But against Sidious, he actually turned things against Sidious, and from quite a disadvantage, too. You must see that much.

And to say Yoda bested Dooku in saber combat is an opinion at best, and unsupported opinion at worst. There was no give on either side, and Dooku DID run, but with the clones assailing the planet he had other priorities. Obviously when the battle went on with no clear sign of a victory Dooku thought he couldn't waste his time when he had the Death Star plans in his pocket, and he ran.

And the last part is your opinion. Fair enough. You've never given me a reason to deny you even that, Apex. I disagree, but for reasons that have been gone over many many times.

I don't think Dooku intended to harm Yoda with the lightning, just show Yoda that he had learned a few tricks, and I think Yoda in turn showed Dooku your trick is nothing new, and expected Doou to use more darkside techniques, and when Dooku didn't use anymore but went straight for his lightsaber Yoda deceided that's all he knew and he still had much to learn about the force.

My memory is not as clear on the subject of the duel as it should be, seeing as I haven't seen it in a while, but from what I can recall I thought Dooku was pushed back and looked uncomfortable whereas Yoda seemed more fluid and graceful. Yoda never had to compromise, while Dooku was left on the defensive for the majority of the fight. After the fight Yoda took one big huff, took up his cane, and continued on like nothing happened. Like I said I don't really remember what happened so I won't challenge your argument, but just state the reason for why I said what I said. Which probably shouldn't have been said since I haven't seen the duel in a while.

After I watch it again maybe we'll have this argument over. 😉

Yoda was going to win that duel, I think.

Count Dooku - to me - is the superior duelist. Makashi isn't focused on superstunts and back-flips. It comes down to actual swordsmanship ability. Count Dooku is the greatest DUELIST - in the PT.

But could he contend with Yoda? No. Why?

Because Ataru uses the Force to engage in impossible speeds. Not to mention Yoda is less than half of Dooku's height. A hard target to hit. In pure swordsmanship ability, I don't think Yoda is on par with Dooku. But Yoda's assistance of the Force, his experience, and his pure Force power were too great for Dooku to end.

If the fight had lasted longer - as Dooku's fear and frustration at being unable to find an advantage was evident - Yoda would have beaten him.

I've done a bit of research.

I've used Google and the Star Wars databank to try and look up even more information on Sidious and Dooku. The databank is a valid source, but neither really list specifically just how powerful Dooku and Sidious are to one another. It did mention that Sidious saw Dooku as more of an equal. In the book, Labyrinth of Evil, Dooku laments that he had "finally found his true master with Sidious". He mused that Sidious didn't need to waste time trying to educate him in things he was already proficient in - unlike Yoda.

So, from what I gather, to Sidious - Dooku was a step-up from the likes of Maul. And neither the databank nor any other book I can think of goes into detail on why Dooku fears betraying Sidious so much. Labyrinth suggested that Dooku had no true ambition for himself - ala Maul. Dooku was in awe of Sidious, and had no intentions of betraying him. Even Yoda couldn't tempt him to do so. So I'd have to say Dooku and Sidious were quite the tag-team of evil.

I found a site called Wikicities - a bi-product of Wikipedia. Some of you may immediately discard this information, but Wikicities and Wikipedia are very different, surprisingly. Wikicities has a section specifically and entirely devoted to Star Wars and NOTHING else.

The entries on Wikicities seem to be amazingly accurate. They differ from the regular ones on the Wikipedia. I will post some things I found on Dooku's bio and Sidious's.

It will be:

1. Their Introduction
2. Their Powers and Traits

Count Dooku: Intro

"Count Dooku of Serenno (102 BBY–19 BBY) was a Jedi Master who fell to the Dark Side and became Darth Tyranus, the apprentice of Darth Sidious. Under Sidious' orders he formed the Confederacy of Independent Systems and was the political leader of the Separatist movement."

Count Dooku: Powers and Traits:

"Dooku was an accomplished philosopher, orator, warrior, and Force-adept, regarded as one of the greatest Jedi in the order for his strength of character as much as his strength in the Force.

With his deep voice and veneer of elegant charisma, this political idealist and wealthy Count of Serenno displayed class and intelligence.

The elderly librarian Jocasta Nu once stated, "He was one of the most brilliant Jedi I've ever had the privilege of knowing."

Dooku had been a practitioner of the Force for nearly eight decades, and Dooku and his student Qui-Gon Jinn would have surely sat on the Jedi Council if it were not for their maverick views.

In addition, Dooku was a master swordsman, specializing in the seldom-used Form II art (see lightsaber combat), which makes use of his special curved saber hilt. Form II was known for its efficiency in lightsaber vs. lightsaber combat. This fighting style probably made him able to defeat the skilled Obi-Wan Kenobi and his apprentice, the Chosen One."

=========

Palpatine: Introduction

"Emperor Palpatine (84 BBY – 4 ABY, spirit destroyed 11 ABY), also known as Darth Sidious, was the last Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic and the self-declared Emperor of the Galactic Empire, which he founded in 19 BBY after the end of the Clone Wars. He was most significant for being the only Sith Lord in 1000 years to achieve the ultimate goal of the Sith: to overthrow the Jedi Order, and to bring the galaxy under the rule of the Sith."

Palpatine: Powers and Traits

"Darth Sidious possessed a superior intellect, had a cunning understanding of the human mind, and was skilled in the use of the Force in foreseeing the future, so he could manipulate events as though he were a dejarik grandmaster moving pieces on a board. Therefore, he had a penchant for complicated schemes, and such was his patience that he could wait years to see them come into fruition. Sidious had a broad expertise in areas such as psychology, bureaucracy, and philosophy. The Dark Side energies flowing through his body were so intense that they ravaged his mortal frame. Lord Sidious was a gnarled, ancient man with pale skin, searing, sickly yellow eyes, a heavy dark cloak, and a glossy black cane.

Darth Sidious was an enormously talented fighter. Apparently, the only Jedi ever known to defeat Sidious in battle was Mace Windu, though Anakin Skywalker intervened and Sidious won after all. It is also possible that the loss itself was merely a ploy on Sidious' part to attempt to turn Anakin.

As Palpatine, he had gained a reputation for being a good and modest man from Naboo, an extremely humble and peaceful backwater world. As both Senator and Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, he promised to bring justice to the government, which had been mired in corruption and chaos. Actually the Dark Lord of the Sith, he had in fact used his genius-level intellect to become the most powerful tyrant in galactic history. He was a self-proclaimed savior and political mastermind who had immense power and immeasurable cunning. In his roles as Senator and Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, though, he appeared as an unassuming old man with elegant robes."

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Yoda was going to win that duel, I think.

Count Dooku - to me - is the superior duelist. Makashi isn't focused on superstunts and back-flips. It comes down to actual swordsmanship ability. Count Dooku is the greatest DUELIST - in the PT.

But could he contend with Yoda? No. Why?

Because Ataru uses the Force to engage in impossible speeds. Not to mention Yoda is less than half of Dooku's height. A hard target to hit. In pure swordsmanship ability, I don't think Yoda is on par with Dooku. But Yoda's assistance of the Force, his experience, and his pure Force power were too great for Dooku to end.

If the fight had lasted longer - as Dooku's fear and frustration at being unable to find an advantage was evident - Yoda would have beaten him.

Saying Yoda would have beaten Dooku further along in the fight IS an assumption. Remember this.

Count Dooku's entry in Wikicities cites him as an incredible duelist. We all know that, of course, as well as the fact that he was a shrewed man skilled in politics - akin to Sidious. Yoda, Mace, and Jocasta Nu cite him as also being an amazingly talented Jedi with loads of experience and potential. He was a practitioner of the force for eighty years. So it is obviously apparent that he was talented in it. He was intelligence and highly charismatic.

We can also deduce that it is unlikely Sidious would've accomplished his goals for the Sith as easy had Dooku not stepped into the picture. But Sidious planned this long before he met Dooku. He sent Maul into the battle with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon - betting that Maul would win. So his goal was not to replace Maul with Dooku, making it clear Sidious would have gotten his way one way or another. But Dooku's assistance clearly helped.

So, knowing what we do about Count Dooku - as well as this accurate entry in Wikicities - we can deduce that Count Dooku is the superior duelist. But like Faunus said, not by leagues and leagues.

We also see that he and Sidious have many other things in common. They both stalemated Yoda - and lost to a Jedi of a lesser calibur than Yoda. In Dooku's case, it took two Jedi Knights to defeat him. Though, Sidious was faced with a Jedi Master. But Obi-Wan and Anakin worked well as a team.

It is implied - but stated otherwise - that Dooku was faking with Anakin, being instructed by Sidious to capture him instead of killing him. But even in the book - Dooku is surprised and caught off guard by how well they had improved since they last met. So, while Dooku may not have been LOOKING to kill Anakin - I do not believe he lowered himself to a level where he was just playing. Half-ass or three-fourths-ass at best, lol.

Now. The same with Sidious. Sidious lost against Mace. I used to think otherwise, but it says so on the Star Wars site. Now here is the odd inconsistancy.

The site says that Mace Windu was "second only to Master Yoda". The wikicities entry ALSO says that. I don't recall if it said Yoda was the better duelist, but it is heavily implied that Yoda is - as well as being the greater Force user. But Mace is stated as being highly exceptional as a swordfighter.

In the Phantom Menace times, Mace was bested by Count Dooku in battle. At the time, Dooku was obviously the superior duelist. But when you consider that Mace is almost 40 years younger than Dooku, you also see that Mace had MUCH more room for improvement than Dooku did. While I'm not saying Dooku didn't advance at all from TPM to ROTS, I am saying there's no way he had as much room for improvement as Mace did, being younger and having less experience with the Force.

It isn't clear if Dooku could still best Mace during the times of ROTS, if they fought. I'm not trying to take the steam off of Dooku, because it is strongly hinted that he was owned by Dooku before TPM.

The Star Wars site doesn't say that Sidious NEEDED Anakin's help to defeat Windu. It did say he was disarmed by him, but the entry for Darth Sidious states this:

"With Anakin's help, Sidious managed to defeat Mace..."

Now. Notice. Some of you are probably thinking "Somebody just SAID that he might not have needed Anakin's help, but the site said he did." Correction. The site said "WITH Anakin's help". Not "ONLY with Anakin's help".

I could use a million dollars. That sure as hell would help anyone out. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they NEED or require it. It is also strongly believed that Mace could not have defeated Sidious in any other situation. Mace would NEVER be owned by Sidious. But I don't think he'd win any other time.

That duel is full of inconsistancy. It isn't CLEAR as day that Mace beat Sidious and Sidious was going all out. If you compare Sidious's duel with Yoda, you see Sidious battle harder, faster, and using his immense Force mastery.

He did not use the Force with Mace, similar to Dooku not using the Force against Anakin.

Sidious killed three Jedi Masters with pure ease.
Dooku disabled Windu after a short amount of time.

Dooku did not use the Force against Anakin.
Sidious did not use the Force against Mace.

Dooku was DEFEATED by Anakin.
Sidious was DEFEATED by Mace.

Do you see the level of consistancy there? Think about it.