Sidious or Dooku?

In short, the Mace vs Sidious duel and Dooku vs Anakin duel are each very ambigious and hard to detail. It leaves many questions open.

Yoda did NOT defeat Sidious in his battle with the Sith Lord in the Senate chamber. The site says that Sidious was too powerful for Yoda to defeat, though Yoda held his own for much of the fight.

But everyone believes Mace did defeat Sidious with Sidious going all out. If that's true, then are we to believe Mace is superior to Yoda? Or did the circumstances favor Mace? Or did Sidious simply not think of Mace as a legitimate threat? Or was it all simply orchestrated by Sidious to turn Anakin?

There are strong implications of the final two possibilities. Sidious did NOT use the Force in the same mannerism that Dooku did not use the Force against Anakin. Only against Obi-Wan. Sidious didn't use the Force against ANY of his Jedi Master foes.

So. Sidious might have not registered Mace as a threat, having killed three of his Jedi compatriots in less than ten seconds. So that may explain why he did not use the Force against him.

However. Sidious DID attempt to when Mace had him on the ground. This attack obviously did not work. So this also leaves questions open for consistancy.

In my belief, Sidious did a combination of acting overconfidant and then manipulating Anakin.

Sidious killed three of the four Jedi Masters with ease. He engaged in a saber fight with Mace for a little while, sparring. No where near exerting the intensity that he did with Yoda.

Then, when Mace outmaneuvered him and kicked his weapon away (that doesn't mean, by the way, that Mace is the better duelist) did Anakin arrive. Perhaps it was purely by coincidence.

But coincidence RARELY happens in Star Wars. Especially involving Sidious.

Now. Sidious had no saber. So here he was screwed, to put it lightly. This is where the situation either escaped his control, or where it was actually in his grasp still. Here, he cunningly manipulates Anakin into a test of loyalty. What better way to forever close off the Jedi to him, by participating in the death of one of his masters?

Anakin wasn't going to KILL Mace. That became evident when he agreed Sidious ought to have a trial. He didn't want to kill Mace or then see Sidious go unpunished. But he NEEDED Sidious alive. If Anakin was looking to kill Mace, he would've pierced his heart instead of disarming him.

Sidious must've realized this, and took the liberty of killing Mace all on his own.

Another inconsistancy is that in the book, Vaapad is the source of Palpatine's disfiguration. That the bolts channeled back from the saber onto him. True, sparks did fly across his face, but I don't recall it coming from the saber. It might have.

The Star Wars site declares that Sidious "became a well of Dark Side energies" proving that Sidious was so powerful in the dark side that it prematurely aged him as well as extended his life. He and Yoda are VERY similar, there.

Yoda and Sidious act in the same manner. They pretend to be weak and feeble when in truth, they are amazingly powerful. Like Sidious, when Yoda did NOT use the Force, he was fatigued and winded. Like an old man.

Odd how similar they truly are.

Back to the Dooku and Sidious parallels...

Mace is often credited as a superior duelist to Sidious. But did we ever see him outmatch him with his blade? No. People forget - as did I myself - that Sidious was not beaten by Mace outmaneuvering him with his saber.

Mace KICKED Sidious's blade away.

If Fishy and I are having a gunfight, and by some chance I get close to him and kick his damn gun away, does that make me the better shooter? No. Even if I DID disarm him and beat him, it doesn't mean that I can outshoot him.

The same for Mace. Mace was the better FIGHTER. But never in the duel does it show Mace being the better DUELIST.

And as for Dooku.

Dooku only used the Force against Obi-Wan. This was an efficient move in many ways. If Dooku wanted to capture Anakin and lure him to the dark side, harming his master was a smart move. However, if one is in battle - one also wants to rid one's self of his or her opponents. Dooku did just that, and now only had one opponent left. In a saber lock, Dooku goaded Anakin. Telling him that "You have hate. You have fear. But you don't use them."

Anakin did, and outmaneuvered Dooku. Feigning the fight he may have been, but Anakin outmaneuvering him was a failure on Dooku's part. Again, I'm not taking the steam off of Dooku - as this was filled with many unexplained inconsistancies.

But think about this.

I'm sorry, but this is just being picky now.

We can also deduce that it is unlikely Sidious would've accomplished his goals for the Sith as easy had Dooku not stepped into the picture. But Sidious planned this long before he met Dooku. He sent Maul into the battle with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon - betting that Maul would win. So his goal was not to replace Maul with Dooku, making it clear Sidious would have gotten his way one way or another. But Dooku's assistance clearly helped.

This has anything to do with Sidious fighting Dooku? No. Nobody said Dooku was a better coward than Sidious, or Dooku was a better Sith than Sidious.

So, knowing what we do about Count Dooku - as well as this accurate entry in Wikicities - we can deduce that Count Dooku is the superior duelist. But like Faunus said, not by leagues and leagues.

Did you just use wiki and accurate in the same sentence? Accurate for what? Your debating purposes?

It is implied - but stated otherwise - that Dooku was faking with Anakin, being instructed by Sidious to capture him instead of killing him. But even in the book - Dooku is surprised and caught off guard by how well they had improved since they last met. So, while Dooku may not have been LOOKING to kill Anakin - I do not believe he lowered himself to a level where he was just playing. Half-ass or three-fourths-ass at best, lol.

It's a bit more than simply "implied," thank you very much. It goes from Dooku dominating Anakin to Dooku encouraging Anakin and suddenly losing, not to mention early versions of the script, and what Sidious himself says.

The Star Wars site doesn't say that Sidious NEEDED Anakin's help to defeat Windu. It did say he was disarmed by him, but the entry for Darth Sidious states this:

"With Anakin's help, Sidious managed to defeat Mace..."

Now. Notice. Some of you are probably thinking "Somebody just SAID that he might not have needed Anakin's help, but the site said he did." Correction. The site said "WITH Anakin's help". Not "ONLY with Anakin's help".

Then why mention it at all if it wasn't "necessary"? Watch the movie, Sidious was on all fours, shooting lightning to try keep Mace at bay, and was pleading his case with Anakin, and if Anakin did not disarm Mace, Mace would have killed Sidious. So yes, it's pretty much "only" with Anakin's help. You're wildly speculating and assuming that Sidious could have beaten Mace.

I could use a million dollars. That sure as hell would help anyone out. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they NEED or require it. It is also strongly believed that Mace could not have defeated Sidious in any other situation. Mace would NEVER be owned by Sidious. But I don't think he'd win any other time.

How many other situations? Sidious JUMPED out of his chair, used the dark side to cloud their force powers, and took out three Jedi in seconds, he had the advantage of location AND surprise, and couldn't beat Mace. How many "other situations" are you thinking of? Even his lightning couldn't beat Mace, who deflected it back.

That duel is full of inconsistancy. It isn't CLEAR as day that Mace beat Sidious and Sidious was going all out. If you compare Sidious's duel with Yoda, you see Sidious battle harder, faster, and using his immense Force mastery.

WTF is this? Yoda is 2 feet tall, Mace is 6 feet tall. Yoda's got a short lightsaber, and Mace has a longer one. If you watch fights or participate in martial arts, you'd know very well that the pace of the duel doesn't necessarily indicate the individuals overall ability. A fight can be intentionally slowed down to one adversary's favor. Simply because he did more flips and more parries, which was NECESSARY against someone like Yoda, doesn't mean he was fighting a better duel.

Dooku disabled Windu after a short amount of time.

Where'd you get this?

Dooku did not use the Force against Anakin.
Sidious did not use the Force against Mace.

Dooku was DEFEATED by Anakin.
Sidious was DEFEATED by Mace.

Do you see the level of consistancy there? Think about it.

I didn't see Sidious egging on Mace and asking him to use his anger, did I? I didn't see Sidious taunting Mace like Dooku was taunting Anakin during his entire fight. In fact, I saw Sidious getting knocked to his ass real quick.

You're committing perfect logical fallacy, simply because the two duels have preliminary similarity doesn't mean its the same situation.

Mace is often credited as a superior duelist to Sidious. But did we ever see him outmatch him with his blade? No. People forget - as did I myself - that Sidious was not beaten by Mace outmaneuvering him with his saber.

Mace KICKED Sidious's blade away.

If Fishy and I are having a gunfight, and by some chance I get close to him and kick his damn gun away, does that make me the better shooter? No. Even if I DID disarm him and beat him, it doesn't mean that I can outshoot him.

The same for Mace. Mace was the better FIGHTER. But never in the duel does it show Mace being the better DUELIST.

How the f*ck is this relevant to the discussion? I bet Anakin could beat Yoda in a race without the force, what does that mean for anything in a fight. Sidious didn't beat Mace, Sidious got beaten by Mace. Even with sabers Sidious didn't beat Mace, end of story.

And as for Dooku.

Dooku only used the Force against Obi-Wan. This was an efficient move in many ways. If Dooku wanted to capture Anakin and lure him to the dark side, harming his master was a smart move. However, if one is in battle - one also wants to rid one's self of his or her opponents. Dooku did just that, and now only had one opponent left. In a saber lock, Dooku goaded Anakin. Telling him that "You have hate. You have fear. But you don't use them."

Anakin did, and outmaneuvered Dooku. Feigning the fight he may have been, but Anakin outmaneuvering him was a failure on Dooku's part. Again, I'm not taking the steam off of Dooku - as this was filled with many unexplained inconsistancies.

But think about this.

Think about what? The horrible LACK OF LOGIC you're demonstrating?

If Sidious TOLD Dooku to lose, which is strongly implied, the entire point is moot, it doesn't show similarity, it doesn't provide food for thought, it shows you're desperately grasping for straws.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
We also see that he and Sidious have many other things in common. They both stalemated Yoda - and lost to a Jedi of a lesser calibur than Yoda. In Dooku's case, it took two Jedi Knights to defeat him. Though, Sidious was faced with a Jedi Master. But Obi-Wan and Anakin worked well as a team.

Dooko was fighting Obi-Wan (a Jedi Master) and Anakin (most powerful Jedi Knight at this time - according to Obi-Wan just about to join the Council). Still Dooku toyed with them.

It is implied - but stated otherwise - that Dooku was faking with Anakin, being instructed by Sidious to capture him instead of killing him. But even in the book - Dooku is surprised and caught off guard by how well they had improved since they last met. So, while Dooku may not have been LOOKING to kill Anakin - I do not believe he lowered himself to a level where he was just playing.

Watch the movie again. Anakin couldn't defeat Dooku if Dooku would have given him his best. The point is the novel contradicts the movie here. If you watch the movie (and I think the following scene describes it best): Dooku force chokes Obi-Wan, kicks Anakin back at the same time and then throws Obi-Wan across the entire room they're fighting in. They are obviously without any chances. And Dooku lost it on purpose - 100 %

The Star Wars site doesn't say that Sidious NEEDED Anakin's help to defeat Windu. It did say he was disarmed by him, but the entry for Darth Sidious states this:

"With Anakin's help, Sidious managed to defeat Mace..."

Now. Notice. Some of you are probably thinking "Somebody just SAID that he might not have needed Anakin's help, but the site said he did." Correction. The site said "WITH Anakin's help". Not "ONLY with Anakin's help".

Sidious was on the ground and just hardly managed to keep Mace lightsaber away from his body. Without Anakin he would have died there.

That duel is full of inconsistancy. It isn't CLEAR as day that Mace beat Sidious and Sidious was going all out. If you compare Sidious's duel with Yoda, you see Sidious battle harder, faster, and using his immense Force mastery.

Sidious used force powers that ravaged his mortal frame. What else should he have done ? There is no way he could have used more power.

Do you see the level of consistancy there? Think about it.

No. Because Sidious lost to Mace because Mace was too skilled while Dooku lost to Anakin because he wanted to lose to Anakin. You can't compare those fights. If I want to lose, I lose.

Illustrious...

1. This thread is not really about who would necessarily defeat the other in combat. It is on who is superior in any possible way. I should know. I was the one who made it.

2. These are my personal musings that I am delivering to everyone.

3. I want evidence where Sidious used the Force to cloud their minds. As Faunus stated, the Jedi were going into the fight ready and prepared to take Sidious by force - and they ignited their blades. Then Sidious rose out of his chair, ignited his own blade, and uttered the line:

"So it's treason, then."

So please, do not presume that Sidious caught any of them off guard. He overpowered them. "End of story."

4. I would suggest you conduct yourself in a manner of ettiquette. If you continue, I will report you to the Moderators for bashing other users. I suggest thoroughly that you remain calm and collected instead of jumping the gun and insulting me. Fair warning. I've had enough of your remarks.

1. As I stated, Nai, Mace was the superior fighter. But not necessarily the superior duelist. Mace never outmaneuvered Sidious with his blade. He had to resort to a spinning kick that knocked Sidious's saber away from his hand. He didn't do anything with his weapon that Sidious did not counter, or vice versa.

The ability to kick an opponent's weapon out of their hand makes them the more skilled combatant - but not necessarily the superior duelist.

2. You mis-understand. I don't mean that Sidious could've salvaged the predicament he was in when he was knocked to the floor. I meant that if he had control of the situation, he lost it when Mace disarmed him and had him cornered. As we saw, Mace managed to keep Sidious's own lightning assault at bay.

What I meant, Nai, was that Sidious was more aggressive and openly used the Force against Yoda whereas he did not against Mace. Not to mention Anakin arrived just in time to see Mace towering over an unarmed and cowering Chancellor. That IF Sidious used the Force and was even more aggressive than he had been with Mace, I believe he would've beaten him. Mace stalemates him in a saber duel, but I think his Force powers are superior.

3. Like I said with Dooku. It is implied that he lost. But forgive me if I'm wrong, it doesn't state it. Like I said, I would have no problem agreeing with it if Lucas said it were true. It would explain why Dooku lost, as I have a hard time believing Anakin and Obi-Wan improved that much. I don't think he was putting his greatest effort into the fight, but Anakin did outmaneuver him at the end - and Dooku died as a result. I wish Lucas would simply EXPLAIN these things.

Oh and Illustrious...

As for my "Dooku disabled Windu in a short amount of time", I meant he disabled Obi-Wan.

1. This thread is not really about who would necessarily defeat the other in combat. It is on who is superior in any possible way. I should know. I was the one who made it.

The end all is that you'll tweak it so Sidious will win. What next? Who had more political power at their peak, Sidious or Dooku?

2. These are my personal musings that I am delivering to everyone.

And those are my responses to said ridiculous personal musings.

3. I want evidence where Sidious used the Force to cloud their minds. As Faunus stated, the Jedi were going into the fight ready and prepared to take Sidious by force - and they ignited their blades. Then Sidious rose out of his chair, ignited his own blade, and uttered the line:

"So it's treason, then."

So please, do not presume that Sidious caught any of them off guard. He overpowered them. "End of story."

What? Having a hidden lightsaber and suddenly flinging from your feet into battle isn't taking them by guard? If you were in battle, and I suddenly blindsided you, does that mean I "overpowered" you? No. The fact remains: they were not prepared to see that attack. Jedi operate on both users drawing and igniting their sabers, and then initiating battle, clearly Sidious leapt into it.

4. I would suggest you conduct yourself in a manner of ettiquette. If you continue, I will report you to the Moderators for bashing other users. I suggest thoroughly that you remain calm and collected instead of jumping the gun and insulting me. Fair warning. I've had enough of your remarks.

What did I say?

I'll go back and look:

You're committing perfect logical fallacy, simply because the two duels have preliminary similarity doesn't mean its the same situation.

How the f*ck is this relevant to the discussion? I bet Anakin could beat Yoda in a race without the force, what does that mean for anything in a fight. Sidious didn't beat Mace, Sidious got beaten by Mace. Even with sabers Sidious didn't beat Mace, end of story.

Think about what? The horrible LACK OF LOGIC you're demonstrating?

Are you referring to these? Notice I'm attacking your worthless argument, not your person. So stop pretending your the victim here, end of story. You throw some unrelated, foul-logic, BS here, and I'll throw it back, citing said BS as unrelated and foul-logic.

Anyway, I remeber using this example before. Sidious is like a president. Dictator maybe.. He is a manipulator he can attract large amouns people and persuade them otherwise. He is good at leading an empire. Because of his abilities. He hasnt fought in ages, because he was leading the republic, while dooku trained as a dueler, he trained with both light and dark. He fought/sparred many others. So its clear that dooku has the advantage here.

Lets say, John Kerry was our president. And he was Sidious. And Our president now, err at least here in the U.S. George bush was Dooku.
Just because Kerry is the leader and recognized as the best mean he could kick bush's ass in a fight? NO! he would probably lose.

Wow, coming back for another round of BS?

1. As I stated, Nai, Mace was the superior fighter. But not necessarily the superior duelist. Mace never outmaneuvered Sidious with his blade. He had to resort to a spinning kick that knocked Sidious's saber away from his hand. He didn't do anything with his weapon that Sidious did not counter, or vice versa.

The ability to kick an opponent's weapon out of their hand makes them the more skilled combatant - but not necessarily the superior duelist.

So what are you trying to prove with this? Sidious got beat, plain and simple. Trying to play a game of semantics with duelist instead of combatant is being petty and stupid. Do you ever recall them peacefully negotiating rules to this "duel"?

What I meant, Nai, was that Sidious was more aggressive and openly used the Force against Yoda whereas he did not against Mace. Not to mention Anakin arrived just in time to see Mace towering over an unarmed and cowering Chancellor. That IF Sidious used the Force and was even more aggressive than he had been with Mace, I believe he would've beaten him. Mace stalemates him in a saber duel, but I think his Force powers are superior.

Did you not notice that Sidious only used aggressive force attacks against Yoda when he was at bay? Go watch the fight again. When they were both in the pod, Sidious did not use a single force power, he and Yoda were dueling with blades much like Sidious and Mace was in the Office.

And there you go again. You produce wild speculation that "you think he would have beaten him" if he did something.

It's always shoulda, coulda, woulda with Sidious for you, isn't it? How does your speculatory crap pass in a debate?

3. Like I said with Dooku. It is implied that he lost. But forgive me if I'm wrong, it doesn't state it. Like I said, I would have no problem agreeing with it if Lucas said it were true. It would explain why Dooku lost, as I have a hard time believing Anakin and Obi-Wan improved that much. I don't think he was putting his greatest effort into the fight, but Anakin did outmaneuver him at the end - and Dooku died as a result. I wish Lucas would simply EXPLAIN these things.

It was in the original script, meaning it CLEARLY was in GL's mind that Dooku was asked to lose to Anakin intentionally. It was NOT in the original script where Sidious beats up Mace. There is FAR more to imply that Dooku threw the fight than Sidious: such as the fact he was TAUNTING Anakin to become stronger. And how does this support your argument in ANYWAY?

1. You again do not read all of my posts. I give Count Dooku his due. Nor do I insult him or discredit him as you do Sidious. It is clear that you do, Illustrious, whereas I don't. I try to be fair with both combatants.

2. You're still bashing. Simply agree to disagree. Or say that you do not believe that which I do. You do not have to go all the way and insult my arguments, Illustrious. You're not thinking on a level of maturity I once thought you possessed.

3. The four Jedi Masters entered the room. Sidious and Mace exchanged some banter. Then the four Jedi Masters drew and ignited their sabers. This is a clear indication that they were very much prepared to take Sidious by force. Sidious rose from his chair, jerked his wrist, and a lightsaber hilt fell into his hand. He ignited the blade and held it up for the Jedi to see. He then said: It's treason then.

He flipped over his desk and quickly dispatched the first two Jedi, before sparring with Kit and Mace - before killing Kit.

This is what happened. They were prepared to fight him. Sidious did not catch them off guard, Illustrious. They simply couldn't fight him and win. Nor did he use the Force to blind them, as you claimed.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Wow, coming back for another round of BS?

So what are you trying to prove with this? Sidious got beat, plain and simple. Trying to play a game of semantics with duelist instead of combatant is being petty and stupid. Do you ever recall them peacefully negotiating rules to this "duel"?

Did you not notice that Sidious only used aggressive force attacks against Yoda when he was at bay? Go watch the fight again. When they were both in the pod, Sidious did not use a single force power, he and Yoda were dueling with blades much like Sidious and Mace was in the Office.

And there you go again. You produce wild speculation that "you think he would have beaten him" [b]if he did something.

It's always shoulda, coulda, woulda with Sidious for you, isn't it? How does your speculatory crap pass in a debate?

It was in the original script, meaning it CLEARLY was in GL's mind that Dooku was asked to lose to Anakin intentionally. It was NOT in the original script where Sidious beats up Mace. There is FAR more to imply that Dooku threw the fight than Sidious: such as the fact he was TAUNTING Anakin to become stronger. And how does this support your argument in ANYWAY? [/B]

1. If that is your argument, Sidious bested Yoda fair and square. The two combatants didn't sit down and discuss the rules either. Sidious won fair and square with Yoda, then, if that is your logic.

There is a difference between being the superior combatant and then the duelist. Everything Mace did with a lightsaber, Sidious countered. Sidious was also on the offensive for the majority of the fight, forcing Mace on the defensive. Mace KICKED Sidious's saber out of his hand.

By this, you're saying Mace is the better duelist. I'm saying he was the better fighter, to be sure. But no proof to indicate he was the superior duelist.

2. Again. I never said Dooku wasn't toying. I said it was, and I would very much like to believe that. But part of Dooku's plan wasn't to get his arms amputated or beheaded - like Sidious didn't want to get his face melted.

So, Illustrious. For the final time.

I advise you - when debating with me or anyone else - to remain civil. I am remaining civil with you, and it would be polite if you did the same. The next time you insult me or my argument, I will be reporting you.

1. You again do not read all of my posts. I give Count Dooku his due. Nor do I insult him or discredit him as you do Sidious. It is clear that you do, Illustrious, whereas I don't. I try to be fair with both combatants.

No, the only thing that is clear is that you twist the parameters to give Sidious his due. I never once bashed Sidious as incompetent, I bash YOUR logical fallacy in debating him.

2. You're still bashing. Simply agree to disagree. Or say that you do not believe that which I do. You do not have to go all the way and insult my arguments, Illustrious. You're not thinking on a level of maturity I once thought you possessed.

If your arguments do not make logical sense, I will attack them. That's what you do in debates. Either learn this, or go away.

3. The four Jedi Masters entered the room. Sidious and Mace exchanged some banter. Then the four Jedi Masters drew and ignited their sabers. This is a clear indication that they were very much prepared to take Sidious by force. Sidious rose from his chair, jerked his wrist, and a lightsaber hilt fell into his hand. He ignited the blade and held it up for the Jedi to see. He then said: It's treason then.

He flipped over his desk and quickly dispatched the first two Jedi, before sparring with Kit and Mace - before killing Kit.

This is what happened. They were prepared to fight him. Sidious did not catch them off guard, Illustrious. They simply couldn't fight him and win. Nor did he use the Force to blind them, as you claimed.

First off, I just watched the fight, notice how Agen did not put the blade to defend himself, and how Saesee fell immediately after that. They did not even get a single attack or defense in. It's not like Sidious parried their blows or met their lightsabers, they were simply jumped.

If I menacingly loom over you, and then suckerpunch you, does that mean you were prepared? You're thinking way too closed-minded.

I advise you - when debating with me or anyone else - to remain civil. I am remaining civil with you, and it would be polite if you did the same. The next time you insult me or my argument, I will be reporting you.

Point out, specifically, where I insult you? I insult your worthless argument, that is all. If you can't hold a good argument without playing the victim, don't bother trying to debate. Your incessant tattletale attitude is really annoying.

1. If that is your argument, Sidious bested Yoda fair and square. The two combatants didn't sit down and discuss the rules either. Sidious won fair and square with Yoda, then, if that is your logic.

Sure he won fair and square with Yoda, did I ever say he didn't?

There is a difference between being the superior combatant and then the duelist. Everything Mace did with a lightsaber, Sidious countered. Sidious was also on the offensive for the majority of the fight, forcing Mace on the defensive. Mace KICKED Sidious's saber out of his hand.

Again, semantics. Since there was no set rules beforehand, everything goes. PERIOD. END OF STORY. [insert dramatic ending here].

There were no established rules, Sidious, being unable to counter Mace's kick, showed poor prowess.

2. Again. I never said Dooku wasn't toying. I said it was, and I would very much like to believe that. But part of Dooku's plan wasn't to get his arms amputated or beheaded - like Sidious didn't want to get his face melted.

And how does this establish anything? You're trying to draw similarities with Dooku's loss to Sidious'. When it is clear you are beaten, you try to twist it around into saying "Dooku didn't plan to get his arms amputated or beheaded."

No crap, but that doesn't have much to do with their actual duel, now does it? Again, you're twisting parameters to fit your argument.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Point out, specifically, where I insult you? I insult your worthless argument, that is all. If you can't hold a good argument without playing the victim, don't bother trying to debate. Your incessant tattletale attitude is really annoying.

Read your last statement. Was that NOT bashing? There, you WERE insulting my person. So, I suppose I will have to be the tattletale, if it is to ensure the rules. Perhaps you believe that the rules shouldn't be upheld if YOU violate them, then?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
So, Illustrious. For the final time.

I advise you - when debating with me or anyone else - to remain civil. I am remaining civil with you, and it would be polite if you did the same. The next time you insult me or my argument, I will be reporting you.

You enjoy reporting people after you initially push their buttons.

You're quite the funny one, Darth Somebody.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. If that is your argument, Sidious bested Yoda fair and square. The two combatants didn't sit down and discuss the rules either. Sidious won fair and square with Yoda, then, if that is your logic.

There is a difference between being the superior combatant and then the duelist. Everything Mace did with a lightsaber, Sidious countered. Sidious was also on the offensive for the majority of the fight, forcing Mace on the defensive. Mace KICKED Sidious's saber out of his hand.

By this, you're saying Mace is the better duelist. I'm saying he was the better fighter, to be sure. But no proof to indicate he was the superior duelist.

2. Again. I never said Dooku wasn't toying. I said it was, and I would very much like to believe that. But part of Dooku's plan wasn't to get his arms amputated or beheaded - like Sidious didn't want to get his face melted.

WHoa, hold on a sec here... Fair and Square?

Illustrious...

Mace DID disarm Sidious. Fair and square. That is true. But it's not my point - nor was I denying that. The fact that Mace KICKED Sidious's lightsaber away is perfectly fine. But that doesn't mean he is the superior duelist.