The Phoenix Force: Where does it say in any comic Phoenix is part of God?

I'm posting the following cuz, IMO, it pales all that Marvel has done in its attempt to write The Biggest Story. Those who have seen Carl Sagan's Cosmos will recognize it at once.

"There is an idea -- strange, haunting, evocative -- one of the most exquisite conjectures in science or religion. It is entirely undemonstrated; it may never be proved. But it stirs the blood. There is, we are told, an infinite hierarchy of universes, so that an elementary particle, such as an electron, in our universe would, if penetrated, reveal itself to be an entire closed universe. Within it, organized into the local equivalent of galaxies and smaller structures, are an immense number of other, much tinier elementary particles, which are themselves universes at the next level and so on forever -- an infinite downward regression, universes within universes, endlessly. And upward as well. Our familiar universe of galaxies and stars, planets and people, would be a single elementary particle in the next universe up, the first step of another infinite regress."

Now, if this were incorporated into a mystical system...yowzer.

pizza

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect KG. As i have shown to posters before your post and as i will now show you:

As you can see from these scans from both F4 531 and 532 respectively,it does NOT say that Reed created the Big Bang. You misread or misinterpreted. Either way it states that Reed and the Entitys desire to understand, their questions on their own existence were what triggered the Big Bang. Theres a difference between triggering something and creating it KG understand that.

If i light a stick of dynamite is the resultant explosion generated by my body? Does it derive from me directly or are my actions merely the catalyst?

Phoenix Force is the energies of creation it manifests as the Big Bang. This latest F4 story arc has revealed to us why and when Phoenix does that thats all.

As actually stated on panel their thoughts triggered it. They didnt create it. It didnt derive from them. Thats the difference. So no Phoenix is not a byproduct of Reed. You were incorrect. Reed and the Entity and Eternity are still very much byproducts of Phoenix the power of creation.

After the creation scene as they travel along the timestream in an attempt to understand life they finally discover the answer:

As we knew Eternitys the embodiment of all life in the universe. Everyone in 616 is an extension of Eternity as much a part of him as the stars. That is stated. Eternitys questions on his own existence were the trigger for the Big Bang. The manifestation of Phoenix. When Reed and the Entity travelled back to the pre 616 void and asked what is the meaning of life when they questioned existence they triggered the Big Bang instead. However it happened in the exact same way as when Eternity did it (prior to their time travelling and interference) because as revealed they are Eternity. They like everyone else are extensions of him. Therefore as stated the reason life was created in Marvel was because Eternity strived to understand his own existence (presumably whilst in the cosmic egg) and that proved to be the catalyst.

Reeds interference resulted in him actually being responsible for the creation of the F4. He was the intelligence behind the cosmic rays.

Eternity triggered off the Big Bang with his pondering and all life in Marvel are extensions of Eternity.

Those things were the revelations of that story arc. Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang and nowhere did it say that Phoenix never created Eternity. As previous accounts all state those points are the case then a retcon hasnt taken place. We just know why and when the Big Bang occurs every creation cycle. 😉

but i didn't see the Bunny just go back to "Darkness" Pre-Creation

and himself sparked Creation and created the Creation ( on his own will)

Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang ----- Ok Pho is that makes her a tool used by Reed and Bunny

😄

Originally posted by kgkg
maybe am Blind 😉

but i didn't see the Bunny just go back to "Darkness" Pre-Creation

and himself sparked Creation and created the Creation ( on his own will)

Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang ----- Ok Pho is that makes her a tool used by Reed and Bunny

😄

Originally posted by Creshosk
It. Yes. The Phoenix Force as we've said before is a tool, Phoenix force is just another name for the power of creation.

or the so call force can not act on it's own. Agree?

people can use the force ( just like any other source of energy). Agree?

Originally posted by kgkg
so jean is not phoenix force. Do you agree

or the so call force can not act on it's own. Agree?

Jean is one with the force NOW. There are always things set up to allow creation to "create" be it other avatars or hosts or even just through people who are not agents acting on it (or god if he's calling the shots)'s behlaf. Such as the bunny/Reed.

Originally posted by kgkg
people can use the force ( just like any other source of energy). Agree?

Wow, I'm on another board! I feel like the Beyonder in a new universe.

Seems to come down to this:

The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation. That's cool, I can accept that. But that equates the Phoenix Force less with sentient beings and more with energy sources like the Power Cosmic, the Power Primordial, Odinpower, Oan energy, Source energy and Magic.

If that's the case, and that's the only logical way to reconcile GS's unholy mess, then making Galactus vs. Phoenix Force threads are really as illogical as making Celestials vs. Power Cosmic threads. The Power Cosmic doesn't fight - it doesn't make decisions. It simply...is.

While the Force itself is simply an energy source, as proven by that issue of FF, there are beings who embody or represent the Phoenix Force. These are the avatars. Jean is an avatar, and perhaps even more than that. She is one with the Force, she's the embodiment of the Force...but she's NOT the Phoenix Force. If she were, she'd be omniscient...and she's not. She'd be omnipresent - she's not. he had to die in one timeline to be re-born in the future - she couldn't be in two places at once. She'd be omnipotent...and she's not. She was attacked and hurt, even in Here Comes Tomorrow. She was weakened in Endsong and needed energy. Since when do omnipotent beings, aspects of GOD, need to suck energy from optic blasts to retain its power? She wouldn't have to be told what to do by other Phoenix Avatars. She wouldn't have to listen to the mysterious "they" who told her she can't stay. She would have been able to fix the M'Kraan Crystal on her own. If she were THE Phoenix Force as GS is making it out to be, she wouldn't have any of those limitations. But she does have those limitations, and GS can't weasel his way out of them. She has those limitations because she's clearly NOT the Phoenix Force...she's simply an avatar, with perhaps a unique bond with the Force, and access to its full power.

That said, she's still a human, and her mastery and control is NOT absolute, nor is her wisdom. She's has total access to the Phoenix Force the way Galactus has total access to the Power Cosmic, the way the Elders have total access to the Power Primordial, the way the Guardians have total access to Oan power. That's extremely impressive, but it doesn't mean she's undefeatable.

Let's look at her fight with Galactus - her lack of knowledge about her true nature was shown. If she were THE Phoenix Force, she would have already known that she feeds on potential life. She doesn't, because she's not the Phoenix Force...she's a chick accessing power she doesn't really understand. She freaked out when Galactus told her the truth. Did she beat Galactus? Yes...but that's because her supply of energy is greater than his. It proves that the Phoenix Force is a less exaustible source of energy than the Power Cosmic, because it comes from potential life, whereas the Power Cosmic comes from existing life undone. Seems simple enough.

So...what does all of this mean? It means that JEAN GREY is more than capable of defeat, and you can use every showing, good and bad, to bolster a case for or against her. You can NOT use the role of the Phoenix Force to show that JEAN can beat anybody any more than you can use Galactus' feats with the Power Cosmic to show what Firelord could do. You can use it to show that the power of the Phoenix Force is limitless, but you can't just say, "Oh, Jean can blink everybody, including LT, out of existence because the PF is the primal force of creation". The PF IS the primal force of creation...Jean Grey is not.

And for the final time Jean Grey is NOT the Phoenix Force. She's an avatar. Just like all the rest of us will be one day.

Therefore Jean Grey is solidly below any and all abstracts, and possibly even Celestials. A lofty place to be, to be sure. GS should be proud. He also shouldn't overreach. 😛

Well it's kind of like Spectre, She has as much power and knowledge as she's alloted by whoever it is that's handing down the orders.

But basically that that you said Demi is what at least I have been saying if not GS as well.

GS has NOT been trying to say that. If he had been trying to say that, he would clearly NOT have Jean Grey beating the likes of Eternity, the Brothers, The Spectre and least of all lthe Living Tribunal, because if he had been trying to say that, he'd know that she would lose to all of them.

When using Hulk in fights, we dont use "Infinitely Strong" Hulk, even if there's no cap to his limit. When using Galactus in fights, we don't use the "just finished eating the universe" Galactus even though he has unlimited absorbtion capacity. Likewise, we should not be using "Jean Grey with infinite wisdom and power" in fights. We should be using average versions based on average combat feats. No more, no less. And Jean's average combat feats, even as Phoenix, ain't nothing to write home to.

GS would sit there and clog up fairly straightforward fights like X-men vs. Fantastic Four with his endless shit about how Jean could just blink the FF away, chakra zulu blah blah. We KNOW what version of Jean the thread starter is talking about, and we KNOW he's not talking about the Phoenix Force. If GS were truly trying to say what I said above, he wouldn't have gone on for hundreds of pages on dozens of threads trying to convince everyone that Jean and the Phoenix Force are one. They aren't.

Originally posted by demigawd
GS has NOT been trying to say that. If he had been trying to say that, he would clearly NOT have Jean Grey beating the likes of Eternity, the Brothers, The Spectre and least of all lthe Living Tribunal, because if he had been trying to say that, he'd know that she would lose to all of them.

When using Hulk in fights, we dont use "Infinitely Strong" Hulk, even if there's no cap to his limit. When using Galactus in fights, we don't use the "just finished eating the universe" Galactus even though he has unlimited absorbtion capacity. Likewise, we should not be using "Jean Grey with infinite wisdom and power" in fights. We should be using average versions based on average combat feats. No more, no less. And Jean's average combat feats, even as Phoenix, ain't nothing to write home to.

GS would sit there and clog up fairly straightforward fights like X-men vs. Fantastic Four with his endless shit about how Jean could just blink the FF away, chakra zulu blah blah. We KNOW what version of Jean the thread starter is talking about, and we KNOW he's not talking about the Phoenix Force. If GS were truly trying to say what I said above, he wouldn't have gone on for hundreds of pages on dozens of threads trying to convince everyone that Jean and the Phoenix Force are one. They aren't.

Not that part of what you said, that part was the spectre part of my last post. Jean has shown to use power significant enough to beat most people, she did after all, stem off the future of 616 and repair it with but a thought, she was given the power to do exactly that, sort of like with spectre's varying power levels. Which is why showing this feat shows that she used the tool as the white crown phoenix would basically trump most characters, and that is jean as she is currently.

You wouldn't after all limit Galactus to Herald level feats adn abilities, So why would you with Jean.

Analogy wise,

Phoenix force - Cosmic power -Energy source
Jean grey white crown phoenix - Galactus - Most powerful user of said energy source.
Other Hosts(Rachel, quentin etc) - Heralds(Surfer, firelord etc) - Average user of energy source

Get what I'm saying here?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Not that part of what you said, that part was the spectre part of my last post. Jean has shown to use power significant enough to beat most people, she did after all, stem off the future of 616 and repair it with but a thought, she was given the power to do exactly that, sort of like with spectre's varying power levels. Which is why showing this feat shows that she used the tool as the white crown phoenix would basically trump most characters, and that is jean as she is currently.

Except her battle success is mixed, and that should be reflected in analyzing her if you're going to have an honest discussion about her combat acumen.

You wouldn't after all limit Galactus to Herald level feats adn abilities, So why would you with Jean.

That's why I said that you have to take averages. Has Galactus been KO'ed by the likes of Thor? Yes. Has he been said to have the ability consume the universe if he wanted to? Yes. But when analyzing if he could beat Entity X, the truth must lie somewhere in between. So it is for Phoenix. Has she amputated a future? Yes. She has lost to Magneto? Yes. Her real self is somewhere in between. GS is 100% focused on the top feats and all too willing to dismiss the low feats, which skews his average, making his version of Phoenix unrealistic and unsupported by the preponderance of comic evidence.

Analogy wise,

Phoenix force - Cosmic power -Energy source
Jean grey white crown phoenix - Galactus - Most powerful user of said energy source.
Other Hosts(Rachel, quentin etc) - Heralds(Surfer, firelord etc) - Average user of energy source

Get what I'm saying here?

I get what you're saying - and I agree with the analogies. HOWEVER, it's not clear that Jean really is THAT much greater than the other hosts. If you look at GS's scans....Jean was often confused and had to take advice from a computer. Her judgment and wisdom were both very much average and very much human. "They" communicated to her through another Avatar, who seemed to have a better grasp on what they were than Jean. It leads me to question just how much higher Jean really is than the others.

Personally, I wouldn't go further than saying Jean is the Tyrant to the other avatars' Silver Surfers.

Either way, Jean's potential may be unlimited, but you and GS fail to factor in the practicality of her very character...she's a young woman who sees things the way a young woman would. It's what would doom her against the highest entities in the omniverse.

Originally posted by kgkg
maybe am Blind 😉

but i didn't see the Bunny just go back to "Darkness" Pre-Creation

and himself sparked Creation and created the Creation ( on his own will)

Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang ----- Ok Pho is that makes her a tool used by Reed and Bunny

😄

Being a power thats tapped into doesnt make you any lower on the hierarchy KG. The Phoenix Force is a tool. Its the power used to make creation and its the power that sustains it.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wow, I'm on another board! I feel like the Beyonder in a new universe.

Seems to come down to this:

The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation. That's cool, I can accept that. But that equates the Phoenix Force less with sentient beings and more with energy sources like the Power Cosmic, the Power Primordial, Odinpower, Oan energy, Source energy and Magic.

If that's the case, and that's the only logical way to reconcile GS's unholy mess, then making Galactus vs. Phoenix Force threads are really as illogical as making Celestials vs. Power Cosmic threads. The Power Cosmic doesn't fight - it doesn't make decisions. It simply...is.

Originally posted by demigawd
While the Force itself is simply an energy source, as proven by that issue of FF, there are beings who embody or represent the Phoenix Force. These are the avatars. Jean is an avatar, and perhaps even more than that. She is one with the Force, she's the embodiment of the Force...but she's NOT the Phoenix Force. If she were, she'd be omniscient...and she's not. She'd be omnipresent - she's not. he had to die in one timeline to be re-born in the future - she couldn't be in two places at once. She'd be omnipotent...and she's not. She was attacked and hurt, even in Here Comes Tomorrow. She was weakened in Endsong and needed energy. Since when do omnipotent beings, aspects of GOD, need to suck energy from optic blasts to retain its power? She wouldn't have to be told what to do by other Phoenix Avatars. She wouldn't have to listen to the mysterious "they" who told her she can't stay. She would have been able to fix the M'Kraan Crystal on her own. If she were THE Phoenix Force as GS is making it out to be, she wouldn't have any of those limitations. But she does have those limitations, and GS can't weasel his way out of them. She has those limitations because she's clearly NOT the Phoenix Force...she's simply an avatar, with perhaps a unique bond with the Force, and access to its full power.

That said, she's still a human, and her mastery and control is NOT absolute, nor is her wisdom. She's has total access to the Phoenix Force the way Galactus has total access to the Power Cosmic, the way the Elders have total access to the Power Primordial, the way the Guardians have total access to Oan power. That's extremely impressive, but it doesn't mean she's undefeatable.

The Phoenix Force is a power source and a level of consciousness that brings union with the supreme being. Jean Grey and Phoenix have a special relationship, Jean Grey is its human face the form Phoenix manifests into creation as. As stated in X-men The End creation requires a human touch and Phoenix applies that as Jean. Of course such a form brings with it limitations however Jean receives guidance from the Crown which she represents in creation. The White Hot Room (The Crown) as you should have read contains the archetypal forms of all that is. The true forms of everything with which we are reunited with through death in the white hot room. (Endsong anyone? I know you're confused but afterwards in the white hot room, when all our pieces are back together, you'll understand, we'll understand"😉. In Kaballah we are not complete beings in creation we dont fully understand truly what we are until we are reunited with ourselves in the Crown. That is how Jean was always Phoenix but she just never knew it until the end of New X-men. As ive previously stated being in creation goes some way into making her forget her true herself. It was Jeans Phoenix self/Consciousness that appeared before her on the shuttle hence the line “-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you"

Jeans form in creation is just a shell. Hence in New X-men 128 "Jean is just the house where i live" Nothing more than the form Phoenix manifests itself into creation in to carry out its "phoenix work", its "destined disinfections" Phoenix isnt a seperate entity but a level of consciousness which the avatars attain as a result of their mutations. That is how you explain the phoenix corps, Quentin Quire evolving on panel into a phoenix.

In New X-men 152 Grant Morrison had Jean reborn from the Phoenix egg in the form of the golden woman. The very same form that appeared to Jean on the shuttle, the same form that Excalibur 64 showed was the true form of Phoenix. That was a conscious effort on his part to show that Jean and Phoenix are indeed one and the same. Jean is the chosen form of Phoenix to perform activities on the physical plane. However the transition from the Crown to creation goes makes her forget who and what she is and represents. This was shown in the Here Comes Tomorrow arc where upon Jeans rebirth she had only a small recollection of having to fix something but nothing more. It wasnt until a few hours later that she started to remember and then she performed her disinfection. Life helps her remember to an extent however its upon returning to the Crown that she more fully understands.

Originally posted by demigawd
Let's look at her fight with Galactus - her lack of knowledge about her true nature was shown. If she were THE Phoenix Force, she would have already known that she feeds on potential life. She doesn't, because she's not the Phoenix Force...she's a chick accessing power she doesn't really understand. She freaked out when Galactus told her the truth. Did she beat Galactus? Yes...but that's because her supply of energy is greater than his. It proves that the Phoenix Force is a less exaustible source of energy than the Power Cosmic, because it comes from potential life, whereas the Power Cosmic comes from existing life undone. Seems simple enough.

You've slipped up here Demi this was pre retcon and so was written as such. So in terms of discrediting the idea that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same that event is irrelevant. THAT Phoenix was sustained by the creation cycle and if sentient it fed on life unborn. That being is of a totally different nature to the original phoenix interpretation and the one currently in place. Either way it still thrashed Galactus.

Originally posted by demigawd
So...what does all of this mean? It means that JEAN GREY is more than capable of defeat, and you can use every showing, good and bad, to bolster a case for or against her. You can NOT use the role of the Phoenix Force to show that JEAN can beat anybody any more than you can use Galactus' feats with the Power Cosmic to show what Firelord could do. You can use it to show that the power of the Phoenix Force is limitless, but you can't just say, "Oh, Jean can blink everybody, including LT, out of existence because the PF is the primal force of creation". The PF IS the primal force of creation...Jean Grey is not.

And for the final time Jean Grey is NOT the Phoenix Force. She's an avatar. Just like all the rest of us will be one day.

Therefore Jean Grey is solidly below any and all abstracts, and possibly even Celestials. A lofty place to be, to be sure. GS should be proud. He also shouldn't overreach. 😛

When have i ever denied Jean was an avatar? Ive always said she was as opposed to the other Phoenixes that are hosts. Jean is and always will be the tool through which the consciousness carries out its work on the physical plane. They are forever bound hence her title as the White Crown Phoenix. As the White Crown Phoenix the one who amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline telekinetically before reforming the "dead" universe in her hand she is beyond anything universal, her feats have shown that.

I think somewhere down the line you've become confused. Theres a difference between me saying Jean and Phoenix are the same and me saying Jean and the Phoenix Force are the same. The result is you've waffled on over nothing and changed nothing. I just copied and pasted. 😄

However understand that Jean has always been bound to Phoenix. Her archetypal Phoenix form predated her physical birth on the planet. Thats how the golden woman was able to talk to Jean herself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Being a power thats tapped into doesnt make you any lower on the hierarchy KG. The Phoenix Force is a tool. Its the power used to make creation and its the power that sustains it.

PF (jean has been manipulated and her powers used)

so what is it

PF = Force ( like powercosmic)
PF = Jean

THe force has been jacked , and used by other.

so the force allowed Bunny to tap into PF?

and what about the Stranger? Did the force allow that to?

Originally posted by demigawd
Except her battle success is mixed, and that should be reflected in analyzing her if you're going to have an honest discussion about her combat acumen.

But you're failing to acknowledge that there were reasons behind some of her losses. For example self imposed limitations, her presence in 616 not being necessary for her Phoenix work.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's why I said that you have to take averages. Has Galactus been KO'ed by the likes of Thor? Yes. Has he been said to have the ability consume the universe if he wanted to? Yes. But when analyzing if he could beat Entity X, the truth must lie somewhere in between. So it is for Phoenix. Has she amputated a future? Yes. She has lost to Magneto? Yes. Her real self is somewhere in between. GS is 100% focused on the top feats and all too willing to dismiss the low feats, which skews his average, making his version of Phoenix unrealistic and unsupported by the preponderance of comic evidence.

Not at all. Youre failing to acknowledge the many factors in play during her battles. Intentions, (e.g to kill or disable) self imposed restrictions (after M'kraan up until DP's sacrifice), which retcon period, premature resurrection (Endsong, Here Comes Tomorrow) etc when her presence was required for her work (unlikejggg) she hasnt lost.

Originally posted by demigawd
I get what you're saying - and I agree with the analogies. HOWEVER, it's not clear that Jean really is THAT much greater than the other hosts. If you look at GS's scans....Jean was often confused and had to take advice from a computer. Her judgment and wisdom were both very much average and very much human. "They" communicated to her through another Avatar, who seemed to have a better grasp on what they were than Jean. It leads me to question just how much higher Jean really is than the others.

Personally, I wouldn't go further than saying Jean is the Tyrant to the other avatars' Silver Surfers.

It is clear however that she is greater than the other hosts and that she is the top Phoenix. The Crowns favoured avatar. How much by is inconsequential given the feats we have seen and the fact that all Phoenixes activities on the physical plane are done via an avatar so it would make sense that the full power of the force could be employed by the top avatar.

Yes Jean was confused and was instructed on what to do but she was the one who had the know how on how to do it. Thats the crux of the matter. Despite her confusion (which could be attributed to her premature enforced ressurrection) she still managed to wipe a timeline out of existence and then telekinetically reform the dead 616 universe in her hand so your argument about her confusion making her below the abstracts and the like is hardly solid and far from supported.

Originally posted by demigawd
Either way, Jean's potential may be unlimited, but you and GS fail to factor in the practicality of her very character...she's a young woman who sees things the way a young woman would. It's what would doom her against the highest entities in the omniverse.

Just remember that next time you decide to pit the deranged Scarlet Witch against the entire race of Celestials. 😂

Originally posted by kgkg
It doesn't?

PF (jean has been manipulated and her powers used)

so what is it

PF = Force ( like powercosmic)
PF = Jean

THe force has been jacked , and used by other.

so the force allowed Bunny to tap into PF?

and what about the Stranger? Did the force allow that to?

The Force is the power of creation. It smeant to be used for such things thats what its there for. Eternity triggered the Big Bang which is a manifestation of the Force. If that was against the forces purpose then it wouldnt have been allowed.

The Stranger never got to use the Force what are you talking about? It was a visualization. One that was supported by Eternity who confirmed that the power of Phoenix does indeed bring about the replacement of Lt and the abstracts every creation cycle. The Stranger however wanted to do it on his own timetable and use the power to help him survive that process Phoenix brings about naturally. Therefore leaving himself the supreme being of reality hence the pic of LT and the abstracts bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger.

This is becoming a bit of a habit my friend. We might have to start negotiating rates. lol 😛

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Force is the power of creation. It smeant to be used for such things thats what its there for. Eternity triggered the Big Bang which is a manifestation of the Force. If that was against the forces purpose then it wouldnt have been allowed.

The Stranger never got to use the Force what are you talking about? It was a visualization. One that was supported by Eternity who confirmed that the power of Phoenix does indeed bring about the replacement of Lt and the abstracts every creation cycle. The Stranger however wanted to do it on his own timetable and use the power to help him survive that process Phoenix brings about naturally. Therefore leaving himself the supreme being of reality hence the pic of LT and the abstracts bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger.

This is becoming a bit of a habit my friend. We might have to start negotiating rates. lol 😛

Visualization yaaaaaaaa you can use that to support your idea but if i use it it doesn't count because it's a visualization

Originally posted by kgkg
Allowed? Can you prove that.

If it wasnt allowed then dont you think there would have been intervention. Either way i think you might be misinterpreting again. (But its partly my fault as i shouldnt have answered your previous question as if it was relevant) Eternity only triggered the Big Bang. It was still Phoenix who manifested as the Big Bang so its not like he tapped into the power and used it to create the Big Bang.

Originally posted by kgkg
Visualization yaaaaaaaa you can use that to support your idea but if i use it it doesn't count because it's a visualization

You are so confused lol

The difference is that the visualisation was supported by Eternity who verified that Phoenix was indeed the power that leads to the replacements and he said that Stranger mustnt be allowed to access the power to bring about the end on his own terms because it would have terrible consequences. Therefore Strangers depiction was true.

You wanted to use a visualisation of Eternity showing multiple universes in his hands to equal the feat of Jeans where she literally held a universe in her hand. It doesnt quite work that way mate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The difference is that the visualisation was supported by Eternity who verified that Phoenix was indeed the power that leads to the replacements and he said that Stranger mustnt be allowed to access the power to bring about the end on his own terms because it would have terrible consequences. Therefore Strangers depiction was true.

You wanted to use a visualisation of Eternity showing multiple universes in his hands to equal the feat of Jeans where she literally held a universe in her hand. It doesnt quite work that way mate. [/B]

Originally posted by kgkg
not that the part where you said he get PF power.

Not quite sure what you mean but either way the replacement of the abstracts and LT was something verified by Eternity to be part of the natural order. He talked of Stranger wanting to speed up the process and bring it about on his own terms. Stranger said Phoenix was the key to his plans the "touchstone". Through Phoenix he hoped to collapse reality and emerge as the supreme being. That swhen he visualised this happening just before Eternity verified it.

You wanted to equate a visualisation to a literal feat. 😕

If it wasnt allowed then dont you think there would have been intervention. Either way i think you might be misinterpreting again. (But its partly my fault as i shouldnt have answered your previous question as if it was relevant) Eternity only triggered the Big Bang. It was still Phoenix who manifested as the Big Bang so its not like he tapped into the power and used it to create the Big Bang.

without bunny there whould be no Big Bang = no PF