Originally posted by long pig
Marvel Knights isn't canon.I could be wrong, but do ya know of anywhere it says it's canon?
Also, it takes time for a telepathic assault to reach a mind, you keep neglecting that. 😉
No, there is no latency time for a tp?
xavier could put wolverine to sleep next to him, or across a football field, one may take more effort, but the time of the attack, and the damage, is instant, like forming the bubble.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I could say, on the flip side, Emma isn't as fast. Because she couldn't tell that Sue was about to attack.
You could say that. But then you'd be wrong. If Sue was already preparing to attack, then she has the headstart. She'd already be two steps in. Of course she'd get her attack off first. Not exactly quickdraw, is it?
Panther, on the other hand, jumped into the field before it finished forming. That means that we've been neglecting the actual formation speed of the objects itself. No longer.
Says who though? You? Sue operates at the speed of thought, so does Emma.
Agreed. But as I've been saying, Sue has three things to think about at the speed of thought. Emma has but two. And that's not counting the actual launching of said object.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No, but when black panther jumped through, that took physical and mental activity, therefore more time.Thus showing that she indeed doesn't have the advantage of instant force.
Panther jumps at xavier, what happens?
Like I said, if it's speed you're raising, Emma has proven she's not as quick as you all think. For a telepath.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No its not, I fought overseas, what happens when you blink at someone waving their hand at you?When you flinch, reflexes are INSTANTANEOUS.
No thought, subconscious.reflex,n:An involuntary physiological response to a stimulus..
When I punch, I have to pinpoint, aim, balance, counter balance, and attack..
reflex is a involuntary response, its subconscious, like a heartbeat.
You're denying there's such a thing as instinctive attack? You should know, you're a martial artist right?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
She had to construct it, aha!!You just said so yourself, and even mental construction takes time.
No, I quoted you. I've never seen her have to do that, was what I'm saying. Unless she was trying to form a specific shape.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Hulk requires adrenaline, "getting mad" is more or less a misconception.Hulk is superstrong, he gradually increases though, because of his ability to tap into another dimension.
He looked up, in a calm state, saw a multi-billion ton mountain falling. He stopped it. Instinct. Point proven.
-AC
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No, there is no latency time for a tp?xavier could put wolverine to sleep next to him, or across a football field, one may take more effort, but the time of the attack, and the damage, is instant, like forming the bubble.
Originally posted by long pig
Marvel Knights isn't canon.I could be wrong, but do ya know of anywhere it says it's canon?
You mean the "this is OK for comic battles!" sticker? Missed it. But Daredevil is Marvel Knights, and other characters in other books acknowledge its events. Ditto with Punisher. So clearly the MK line is part of canon. It's just "more mature" stories, not an alternate universe.
Also, it takes time for a telepathic assault to reach a mind, you keep neglecting that. 😉
No it doesn't. Telepathic attacks are instant. Unlike Sue, it's not a wave of, heh heh, "force" that travels from one opponent to the other. It just happens. Which is why a telepathic attack from miles away are as instant as from a few feet away.
Originally posted by demigawd
You could say that. But then you'd be wrong. If Sue was already preparing to attack, then she has the headstart. She'd already be two steps in. Of course she'd get her attack off first. Not exactly quickdraw, is it?
So she didn't plan it. That means she didn't stand there constructing anything. That means it didn't take any time at all did it? From the SECOND Sue's attack was initiated, Emma would have known and stopped. She didn't coz Sue was too fast.
Originally posted by demigawd
Panther, on the other hand, jumped into the field before it finished forming. That means that we've been neglecting the actual formation speed of the objects itself. No longer.
You just proved my point above. Formation isn't neccessary unless she's trying to form something.
Originally posted by demigawd
Agreed. But as I've been saying, Sue has three things to think about at the speed of thought. Emma has but two. And that's not counting the actual launching of said object.
That's to you though. You think she has to locate her, she doesn't. You think she has to form, she doesn't. You think she has to then launch it. She doesn't have to do it all in steps. It happens instantly UNLESS she has a specific idea in mind. If Emma wants to lift a steel girder she has to locate it, focus on it and then lift it. In this fight, she needs no location. Neither does Sue. She needs no focus because she's not specifically trying to complete a task. She needs no launch time. Neither does Sue.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Amazing the way people shove their noses into science books when they can't get their way.Why is this "locate" business here? Did you not read the thread?
So it's more or less just launch and launch. They both operate at the same speed. She doesn't HAVE to form, she can fire instantly. Like Hydro-Man fires water. He only takes time to create geysers if he tries and thinks about it. If he just wants to crush someone's skull with a cannon of water, it's more or less instant.
-AC
Locate was LP's term. In truth, it's "identify target", which they both have to do to prevent EVERYBODY from getting hit. Sue has to think, "attack in front of him", Emma has to think, "Attack Sue". The difference again, is actually two things:
1)Sue has to form the object. There is no such thing as Sue "projecting unformed force", and until you provide evidence of otherwise, that will continue to remain so.
2)The invisible objects has to actually travel from Sue to her opponent.
Those are two extra steps that take time, take that sue doesn't have.
Originally posted by demigawd
You mean the "this is OK for comic battles!" sticker? Missed it. But Daredevil is Marvel Knights, and other characters in other books acknowledge its events. Ditto with Punisher. So clearly the MK line is part of canon. It's just "more mature" stories, not an alternate universe.No it doesn't. Telepathic attacks are instant. Unlike Sue, it's not a wave of, heh heh, "force" that travels from one opponent to the other. It just happens. Which is why a telepathic attack from miles away are as instant as from a few feet away.
No, not canon as in "Wouldn't really happen, but since this isn't in the "real" marvel world, we can allow it."
I'm looking at a comic right here where Prof.X says "Wait a moment, this may take a second." while trying to use a mental attack on Cain.
It even shows the telepathic attack "bubble" traveling towards Cain and hitting him.
If it travels, it takes time. Telepathy travels.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Like I said, if it's speed you're raising, Emma has proven she's not as quick as you all think. For a telepath.
Its not as quick as I think, its the fact that the example you are basing your premise off of has NO connection or relativity to this match whatsoever.
No grimm, no headaches, no animousity, nothing.
A quick draw.
Back to the point, if Black Panther can jump through the bubble, field, or whatever, that there should show that it needs time to construct.
BP jumps at xavier what happens?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're denying there's such a thing as instinctive attack? You should know, you're a martial artist right?
Yes, the instinctive attack however is still defensive. Involuntary, thats the difference.
I use mostly instinct through training, sue and emma have trained.
There is no "response to stimuli here" if a person is hit they're done.
The instinctive attack that is a reflex is the kind where I come from behind you and tap your shoulder, no concentration or anything. A reflex.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, I quoted you. I've never seen her have to do that, was what I'm saying. Unless she was trying to form a specific shape.
So the "force" has to be constructed correct.
Lets call that step two, under the same step that emma has launched her attack.
Sue has conjured, doesn't that "force" need direction?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He looked up, in a calm state, saw a multi-billion ton mountain falling. He stopped it. Instinct. Point proven.
I was explaining the misconception of the adrenaline, in that he had some assisstance in doing the said feat correct?
This is defensive as well, correct?
So you've only agreed with me...
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So she didn't plan it. That means she didn't stand there constructing anything. That means it didn't take any time at all did it? From the SECOND Sue's attack was initiated, Emma would have known and stopped. She didn't coz Sue was too fast.
A telepath has to broadcast in to know ahead of time what exact is going to happen. They train themselves to keep thoughts out to keep from going crazy. Emma wasn't thinking Sue was going to attack her, so she wasn't broadcasting for hostile thoughts. By the time she got some kind of hostile intent alert, Sue's attack was too far in. It's like running and running and suddenly coming upon a cliff. Even if you know a second in advance, you're not going to be able to stop instantly that quickly, even if your mind processes the need to stop on time first. You're going off the cliff. That was Emma, who was mid-sentence when Sue decided to attack.
Also, the larger the object, the more time it takes to form. A force bubble takes more time, which is why Panther was able to jump in. Either way, the formation time isn't negligible.
You just proved my point above. Formation isn't neccessary unless she's trying to form something.
No. Formation time varies based upon what she's forming. The very fact that there IS formation time, no matter how fast, makes the overall attack less than the speed of thought, and thus slower than a telepathic attack.
Sue is still incapable of sending out instant force. It's just not her power. So she still has too many steps to go through to get an attack off first.
Originally posted by long pig
No, not canon as in "Wouldn't really happen, but since this isn't in the "real" marvel world, we can allow it."
Except MK IS the real marvel world, so it IS canon.
I'm looking at a comic right here where Prof.X says "Wait a moment, this may take a second." while trying to use a mental attack on Cain.
It even shows the telepathic attack "bubble" traveling towards Cain and hitting him.If it travels, it takes time. Telepathy travels.
I'm reading a comic here where Xavier is having a real time conversation with Lilandra from a galaxy away. If telepathy travels, it's MIGHTY fast. Unlike, say, Sue's forming bubble which is so slow Panther could hop through it.
Originally posted by demigawd
Except MK IS the real marvel world, so it IS canon.I'm reading a comic here where Xavier is having a real time conversation with Lilandra from a galaxy away. If telepathy travels, it's MIGHTY fast. Unlike, say, Sue's forming bubble which is so slow Panther could hop through it.
They have a connection already established allowing them to "talk" at anytime without having to reach out and engage the other.
C'mon now....
Marvel Knights isn't canon, it's about as canon as a "What If?".
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Its not as quick as I think, its the fact that the example you are basing your premise off of has NO connection or relativity to this match whatsoever.No grimm, no headaches, no animousity, nothing.
A quick draw.
Back to the point, if Black Panther can jump through the bubble, field, or whatever, that there should show that it needs time to construct.
BP jumps at xavier what happens?
Xavier stops him. Bearing in mind he's one of the most powerful telepaths ever. Emma Frost isn't. She's just a very powerful telepath.
Also, you can't continually use this whole speed thing. Because as I've shown, Emma isn't as fast as you claim either then. She obviously needs something to be as effective.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, the instinctive attack however is still defensive. Involuntary, thats the difference.
Involuntary, I can agree to an extent. Defensive, I don't think so. You can attack involuntarily. It's just not as heard of. Hence why some people regret punching someone. That's not a tap on the shoulder thing. That, and I think this is all more or less out of our topic.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So the "force" has to be constructed correct.Lets call that step two, under the same step that emma has launched her attack.
Sue has conjured, doesn't that "force" need direction?
No listen. You said something that I replied to. That's all.
She only has to construct a shape if she WANTS a shape.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I was explaining the misconception of the adrenaline, in that he had some assisstance in doing the said feat correct?This is defensive as well, correct?
So you've only agreed with me...
He didn't NEED to get mad like Sue doesn't NEED to form stuff.
Originally posted by demigawd
A telepath has to broadcast in to know ahead of time what exact is going to happen. They train themselves to keep thoughts out to keep from going crazy. Emma wasn't thinking Sue was going to attack her, so she wasn't broadcasting for hostile thoughts. By the time she got some kind of hostile intent alert, Sue's attack was too far in. It's like running and running and suddenly coming upon a cliff. Even if you know a second in advance, you're not going to be able to stop instantly that quickly, even if your mind processes the need to stop on time first. You're going off the cliff. That was Emma, who was mid-sentence when Sue decided to attack.
So if Sue's attack was too far in, that's another point proven. These things travel extremely fast. Sue wasn't enjoying Emma's speech then randomly decided to attack. She did have it on her mind.
Also, that's Emma's downfall. She's too arrogant, far too arrogant. You seem to be an advocate of past to predict the future. Emma has been beat before, I'm not gonna be on her again.
Originally posted by demigawd
No. Formation time varies based upon what she's forming. The very fact that there IS formation time, no matter how fast, makes the overall attack less than the speed of thought, and thus slower than a telepathic attack.Sue is still incapable of sending out instant force. It's just not her power. So she still has too many steps to go through to get an attack off first.
Sue DOES factually operate at the speed of thought though. We've seen this. Why is it being denied?
-AC
Originally posted by long pig
They have a connection already established allowing them to "talk" at anytime without having to reach out and engage the other.
C'mon now....Marvel Knights isn't canon, it's about as canon as a "What If?".
it's still telepathic, isn't it? They have a "soul" connection. All that means is that they are always connected to each other, so that one knows when the other goes "off-line". But it's still telepathic communication. which is real time.
Before Magneto screwed up intraplanetary telepathy communication, hey had real time conversations with Magneto from across the planet.
Why do you keep saying MK isn't canon? I just said Daredevil is Marvel Knights, and its events were referenced when Daredevil appeared in New Avengers. Doesn't that prove the MK line is canon?
This thread looks like a "Are you an X-Men fan or an F4 fan" thread to me. Sue already beat Emma. It was totally in character considering Sue has been fighting longer and harder than Emma so she's more acustomed to combat. And just so the X-fans know, Sue has come a long way since being Invisible Girl...so when you bring up examples of Sue's defeats from 1963, they're kinda out dated.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Xavier stops him. Bearing in mind he's one of the most powerful telepaths ever. Emma Frost isn't. She's just a very powerful telepath.
Yes, xavier stops him. The point is, BP has NO more of a chance against a xavier at his best, than an emma at her best, they are both going down.
Sue on the other hand, proved she is still vurnerable while constructing a field.
Much like light has almost no mass?
Increase the concentration, and it does gain mass, thats how black holes absorb them.
No different than sue taking more time to conjure her "force" for a MUCH larger area.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Also, you can't continually use this whole speed thing. Because as I've shown, Emma isn't as fast as you claim either then.
My premise: emma takes less steps for her assault, than for sue.
Once again the example you used doesn't correlate with the debate and its stipulations.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
She obviously needs something to be as effective.
Yes, and she has it, no suckerpunch, no animousity, just a quickdraw between her and susan.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Involuntary, I can agree to an extent. Defensive, I don't think so.
My reflex was based on a stimuli, which was being in defense, which was involuntary.
How can you provoke a reflex with no stimuli?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can attack involuntarily. It's just not as heard of. Hence why some people regret punching someone.
I regret punching people because I don't like having to do so.
Like I said, I wake my uncle up (posttraumatic stress from vietnam), he swings at me.
he regrets it, it was an attack, but in defense, understand now?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's not a tap on the shoulder thing. That, and I think this is all more or less out of our topic.
The NEED a stimuli.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No listen. You said something that I replied to. That's all.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
She only has to construct a shape if she WANTS a shape.
It has to be formed, no matter what it is.
It still needs direction, unless its a blast.
Sue targets, and projects.... what?
What is missing there?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He didn't NEED to get mad like Sue doesn't NEED to form stuff.
He needed adrenaline, no less than sue has to direct her attacks, which it is in this case.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So if Sue's attack was too far in, that's another point proven. These things travel extremely fast. Sue wasn't enjoying Emma's speech then randomly decided to attack. She did have it on her mind.
They do, they definitely do, especially considering the size and target of what she was doing.
The point IS that susan had it on her mind, another step.
It was no quick draw, like this matchup.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Also, that's Emma's downfall. She's too arrogant, far too arrogant. You seem to be an advocate of past to predict the future.
There is no gloating here, no plot device.
Fine that it happened, but the future isn't quite related to the past here as much as it seems.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Emma has been beat before, I'm not gonna be on her again.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue DOES factually operate at the speed of thought though. We've seen this.
even an energy user as advanced as magneto needs time to project it, focus it, etc.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why is it being denied?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Xavier stops him. Bearing in mind he's one of the most powerful telepaths ever. Emma Frost isn't. She's just a very powerful telepath.
But he's more powerful not because he's faster, he's more powerful because he can do more, for longer, to greater effect. Speed of thought is speed of thought.
Let's rephrase. If Panther jumped at Emma instead of Xavier, what happens?
Also, you can't continually use this whole speed thing. Because as I've shown, Emma isn't as fast as you claim either then. She obviously needs something to be as effective.
You haven't shown anything. Your evidence consists of Sue knocking out Emma who wasn't even trying to fight while Emma was talking. You can take a telepath who isn't primed for a fight by surprise. We know that. That means nothing, because in this scenario, they both know they're about to fight.
She only has to construct a shape if she WANTS a shape.
No, she's required to make a shape, because that's her power. Name one time otherwise has been shown.
So if Sue's attack was too far in, that's another point proven. These things travel extremely fast. Sue wasn't enjoying Emma's speech then randomly decided to attack. She did have it on her mind.
No she didn't. She decided to attack BECAUSE Emma was talking trash. If Sue had been thinking, "I'm gonna knock this trick out if she gets in my face", and Emma was thinking, "I think this ho might swing at me if I get in her face, I better listen in", THEN we're talking on even terms.
That's not what happened.
Also, that's Emma's downfall. She's too arrogant, far too arrogant. You seem to be an advocate of past to predict the future. Emma has been beat before, I'm not gonna be on her again.
Using the past to predict the future would dictate that if Emma were again talking trash and not expecting Sue to attack and Sue attacked that, yes, Emma would get nailed again.
Unfortuantely that's not the scenario here. The scenario here is that they're both primed for battle and let loose an attack at the same time. Completely different situation. So THAT past has no bearing on THIS future.
Sue DOES factually operate at the speed of thought though. We've seen this. Why is it being denied?
You're missing the point. She operates at the speed of thought, but she has an extra thought process to go through, which I've shown repeatedly.
Originally posted by Wynndar
This thread looks like a "Are you an X-Men fan or an F4 fan" thread to me. Sue already beat Emma. It was totally in character considering Sue has been fighting longer and harder than Emma so she's more acustomed to combat. And just so the X-fans know, Sue has come a long way since being Invisible Girl...so when you bring up examples of Sue's defeats from 1963, they're kinda out dated.