Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, xavier stops him. The point is, BP has NO more of a chance against a xavier at his best, than an emma at her best, they are both going down.Sue on the other hand, proved she is still vurnerable while constructing a field.
That's just because of the nature of telepathy though. The degree to which they are skilled is irrelevant. Moreover, you keep forgetting that Sue has demonstrated psionic resistance before.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Much like light has almost no mass?Increase the concentration, and it does gain mass, thats how black holes absorb them.
No different than sue taking more time to conjure her "force" for a MUCH larger area.
What are you getting at here? Not sure to what you are referring.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What was my claim, I didn't make an explicit speed claim.My premise: emma takes less steps for her assault, than for sue.
Once again the example you used doesn't correlate with the debate and its stipulations.
You're giving her steps she doesn't use though. Locating is BS, you created the thread stating that they were facing each other. So it's down to who is fastest. They both operate at the speed of thought. So by the time Emma attacks, Sue will quite possibly already have her shield up and/or launched an attack of her own.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Involuntary is reflexes, and reflexes are defense.My reflex was based on a stimuli, which was being in defense, which was involuntary.
How can you provoke a reflex with no stimuli?
Not sure where this is at all relevant anymore, but reflexes can be triggered my mental stimuli. Hence why one second of pure rage might be enough to smack someone in the face. Not that this matters to Sue Vs Emma.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Like I said, I wake my uncle up (posttraumatic stress from vietnam), he swings at me.he regrets it, it was an attack, but in defense, understand now?
Of course there are defensive attacks. I never misunderstood you. You just didn't pick up on what I meant.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
The premise if you remember was from demigawd, susan constructs her fields faster, if its a reflex, reflexes are defensive.The NEED a stimuli.
Why are you assuming she has no stimuli though? Mental stimuli is stimuli too and can be just as effective as it's more vivid.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It has to be formed, no matter what it is.It still needs direction, unless its a blast.
Sue targets, and projects.... what?
Stop all this.
Where are you getting "targetting" and all this from? Please inform me before we move on. She projects, no targeting needing. Project and fire.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What is missing there?
Logic.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
He needed adrenaline, no less than sue has to direct her attacks, which it is in this case.
And he got it didn't he? He didn't need time.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
They do, they definitely do, especially considering the size and target of what she was doing.The point IS that susan had it on her mind, another step.
It was no quick draw, like this matchup.
They aren't going to be standing there with blank minds are they? Let's be real. Sue had it on her mind so Emma could have read it. Whether she did or not, she got beat.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Sue has been beaten before as well.
By Emma?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
even an energy user as advanced as magneto needs time to project it, focus it, etc.I agree with her thought projection, that itself is what takes time.
More thoughts=more time.
Depends on the thought. If I'm in a traditional shootout, I have no choice but to think about one thing only, getting the first shot.
Originally posted by demigawd
Let's rephrase. If Panther jumped at Emma instead of Xavier, what happens?
See first quote.
Originally posted by demigawd
You haven't shown anything. Your evidence consists of Sue knocking out Emma who wasn't even trying to fight while Emma was talking. You can take a telepath who isn't primed for a fight by surprise. We know that. That means nothing, because in this scenario, they both know they're about to fight.
Sue had it on her mind to take out Emma. Emma MUST have known, because her powers suggest that. So talking or not, they weren't back to each other. They were similar to this situation. How do we know Emma didn't plan to attack slyly? We don't. The fact is, Sue was so fast the Emma got knocked out and she DID know she was going to attack.
Originally posted by demigawd
No, she's required to make a shape, because that's her power. Name one time otherwise has been shown
When she wills a shield up out of instinct, she has to will a shape, correct? So if shapes take so long, WHY can she do them instantly to protect herself? When she wills a standard instant barrier (not neccessarily a bubble), it's a default shield. Just a barrier. She doesn't have to put hardly any thought in. If she wants to make a spike shape, or a specific shape THEN she thinks.
Originally posted by demigawd
No she didn't. She decided to attack BECAUSE Emma was talking trash. If Sue had been thinking, "I'm gonna knock this trick out if she gets in my face", and Emma was thinking, "I think this ho might swing at me if I get in her face, I better listen in", THEN we're talking on even terms.
You're denying that Sue had the thought "I'm gonna attack her."? She had to have that before she attacked or she wouldn't have attacked. So Emma must have known.
Originally posted by demigawd
You're missing the point. She operates at the speed of thought, but she has an extra thought process to go through, which I've shown repeatedly.
You're the one assuming she's gonna stand there making some articulate bubble that takes ages. Based on what?
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's just because of the nature of telepathy though. The degree to which they are skilled is irrelevant. Moreover, you keep forgetting that Sue has demonstrated psionic resistance before.
Where has this been confirmed as a true,solid fact.
And if so, why did she get her "headache".
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What are you getting at here? Not sure to what you are referring.
That it takes time to make a field, and isn't instant, no matter how fast it is, unlike a tp.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're giving her steps she doesn't use though. Locating is BS, you created the thread stating that they were facing each other. So it's down to who is fastest. They both operate at the speed of thought. So by the time Emma attacks, Sue will quite possibly already have her shield up and/or launched an attack of her own.
Where is it shown she uses force, without creating or implenting it somehow?
Emma locates just like sue, it doesn't take that long to, but you need a target.
If you are standing at a tree, where are you hitting that tree?
She stil has to direct it.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Not sure where this is at all relevant anymore, but reflexes can be triggered my mental stimuli. Hence why one second of pure rage might be enough to smack someone in the face. Not that this matters to Sue Vs Emma.
reflexes are ALWAYS triggered by stimuli, SOMETHING has to happen first, no matter how insignificant.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Of course there are defensive attacks. I never misunderstood you. You just didn't pick up on what I meant.
I thought they weren't, do I need to show what stimuli is?
A stimuli represents a force, that equates a readction.
Be it rain or whatever, a plant opening from the sun, its all stimuli.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why are you assuming she has no stimuli though? Mental stimuli is stimuli too and can be just as effective as it's more vivid.
She has the stimuli, its whatever forced her to react, unless it was an outburst, but I'm sure sue has more control than that.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Where are you getting "targetting" and all this from? Please inform me before we move on. She projects, no targeting needing. Project and fire.
I have a crossbow.
The target is there, but I have to pinpoint the spot.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Logic.
indeed, that there is more steps for sue, she has to create, THEN project.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And he got it didn't he? He didn't need time.
His was a special situation, but either way hulk builds upon this.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They aren't going to be standing there with blank minds are they? Let's be real. Sue had it on her mind so Emma could have read it. Whether she did or not, she got beat.
That doesn't apply here.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Depends on the thought. If I'm in a traditional shootout, I have no choice but to think about one thing only, getting the first shot.
but imagine having to load your bullet
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue had it on her mind to take out Emma. Emma MUST have known, because her powers suggest that. So talking or not, they weren't back to each other. They were similar to this situation. How do we know Emma didn't plan to attack slyly? We don't. The fact is, Sue was so fast the Emma got knocked out and she DID know she was going to attack.
Is there evidence that suggests that, I saw the scan and...
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When she wills a shield up out of instinct, she has to will a shape, correct? So if shapes take so long, WHY can she do them instantly to protect herself? When she wills a standard instant barrier (not neccessarily a bubble), it's a default shield. Just a barrier. She doesn't have to put hardly any thought in. If she wants to make a spike shape, or a specific shape THEN she thinks.
It doesn't take so long, it just takes a millisecond or so longer, which is all emma neds.
stimuli again.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're denying that Sue had the thought "I'm gonna attack her."? She had to have that before she attacked or she wouldn't have attacked. So Emma must have known.
That is an assumption, I didn't see it in the pages anywhere.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're the one assuming she's gonna stand there making some articulate bubble that takes ages. Based on what?
Just a wee bit longer, once EITHER of them gets hit, its a done deal.
My bets on emma.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Where has this been confirmed as a true,solid fact.And if so, why did she get her "headache".
When she encountered Psi-Lord. It's been cited countless times.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Where is it shown she uses force, without creating or implenting it somehow?
What do you mean without creating? Anyone who uses force has to create it. YOU take the term create, too literally.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Emma locates just like sue, it doesn't take that long to, but you need a target.If you are standing at a tree, where are you hitting that tree?
Oh come off it with the bullshit specifics. Sue isn't actually gonna stand the aiming for a head shot or a leg shot is she? Let's try to maintain some level of realism here.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
She stil has to direct it.
Thought they were infront of each other?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
reflexes are ALWAYS triggered by stimuli, SOMETHING has to happen first, no matter how insignificant.
You're agreeing with me.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I thought they weren't, do I need to show what stimuli is?A stimuli represents a force, that equates a readction.
Be it rain or whatever, a plant opening from the sun, its all stimuli.
Yes, what's your point? You're agreeing with me.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
She has the stimuli, its whatever forced her to react, unless it was an outburst, but I'm sure sue has more control than that.
Ah, so that's why. You assume Sue isn't capable of losing it.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I have a crossbow.The target is there, but I have to pinpoint the spot.
Sue isn't gonna turn into Bullseye. Any hit is a hit.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
indeed, that there is more steps for sue, she has to create, THEN project.
This takes milliseconds. Hence when she does it to defend herself.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
but imagine having to load your bullet
Why would I go into battle with an unloaded gun when I know my opponent isn't?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It doesn't take so long, it just takes a millisecond or so longer, which is all emma neds.stimuli again.
Let's not go overboard. Emma isn't speed of light fast.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That is an assumption, I didn't see it in the pages anywhere.
Actually getting tired of explaining the very simplest points to you, genuinely.
If Emma is a telepath, and Sue decided to attack. It was on her mind. Because mind controls body. So Emma actually could have read it.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When she encountered Psi-Lord. It's been cited countless times.
Yes, it has, no different than the fact, that she's been affected by psionics quite fine, so without a plot device, (this match hint hint), how does this affect the fact that Susan reed can be exploited from Emma Frost's psionic attacks.
Nowhere.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What do you mean without creating? Anyone who uses force has to create it.
Exactly what i've been trying to say to you, it doesn't happen, like a telepathic assault, its another step.
I'm hoping you won't go back on this and say there's no step?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
YOU take the term create, too literally.
It apples to this match, to manipulate or create, is a step and it takes time.
Does Emma need to create anything, no.
You are arguing this for me.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh come off it with the bullshit specifics.
It applies to both people, I never said how long it would or wouldn't take, they both move at the speed of thought, keeping that in mind, more tasks means more thought, means more time.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue isn't actually gonna stand the aiming for a head shot or a leg shot is she? Let's try to maintain some level of realism here.
This apples to both, no more than I spend aiming for my keyboard, its a step and it takes time.
Otherwise it takes more time to construct a larger "field" if its not concentrated on a specific spot.
Where is that spot centauri?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Thought they were infront of each other?
I take a piss in a toilet in front of me, I have to direct AND aim my piss.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're agreeing with me.Yes, what's your point? You're agreeing with me.
I sympathise.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ah, so that's why. You assume Sue isn't capable of losing it.
How would losing control help your argument? 🤨.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue isn't gonna turn into Bullseye. Any hit is a hit.
What are you aiming for incapacitiation, where?
Emma's lower level attacks should work fine, depending on strength and location is sue's attacks.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This takes milliseconds. Hence when she does it to defend herself.
I said it took milliseconds, but that millisecond counts as well, thats an extra millisecond into a step, don't you see?
Its all at the speed of thought, but one has more steps.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why would I go into battle with an unloaded gun when I know my opponent isn't?
Its by nature of sues attack, its an extra step, here's a better analogy.
My gun fires by thought, you have to pull your trigger...
To squeeze the trigger takes an additional step, no matter if it takes milliseconds.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Let's not go overboard. Emma isn't speed of light fast.
Speed of thought fast.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Actually getting tired of explaining the very simplest points to you, genuinely.
Lol, I'm on your idiot list now, I apologize truly. 😆
My point is, speed of thought for eveyone, but one has more steps.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If Emma is a telepath, and Sue decided to attack. It was on her mind. Because mind controls body. So Emma actually could have read it.
Spiderman ambushed xavier and tackled the xmen before he recovered.
This is xavier too.
sues attack can originate in Emma's mind just as well. U dont grasp Sue's powers. They are not a blasts that travel. They have no mass and are even more abstract tha TK because they originate in another dimension. IF Sue wants to make a field in Emma's head then its there. If she wants to make a resonance that destroys her body, then her body destructs. If your going to analyze and make conclusions about IW's powers you might want to read some F4 comics so that you know what they are, instead of assuming based on what you saw in the movie HAHAHA.
Originally posted by Wynndar
sues attack can originate in Emma's mind just as well. U dont grasp Sue's powers. They are not a blasts that travel. They have no mass and are even more abstract tha TK because they originate in another dimension. IF Sue wants to make a field in Emma's head then its there. If she wants to make a resonance that destroys her body, then her body destructs. If your going to analyze and make conclusions about IW's powers you might want to read some F4 comics so that you know what they are, instead of assuming based on what you saw in the movie HAHAHA.
I didn't watch the movie, and demi damned sure pointed all of this out, yes it goes there, but she has to create it, and direct it.
I've said nothing different.
cute though...
Originally posted by WynndarI've read the books, I know how they work.
sues attack can originate in Emma's mind just as well. U dont grasp Sue's powers. They are not a blasts that travel. They have no mass and are even more abstract tha TK because they originate in another dimension. IF Sue wants to make a field in Emma's head then its there. If she wants to make a resonance that destroys her body, then her body destructs. If your going to analyze and make conclusions about IW's powers you might want to read some F4 comics so that you know what they are, instead of assuming based on what you saw in the movie HAHAHA.
CM and I are basically arguing the same points, so I don't need to rehatch the same ideas just to add space. But a few points:
I want someone to tell me exactly what happened between Psi-Lord and Sue, and the issue number. Just because someone is fighting a psi doesn't mean the psi was using telepathic attacks that she's blocking. Exodus fought Holocaust, who has ZERO telepathic resistence, because Tessa later owned him in a second. And yet, Holocaust beat him. Why? Because in order to make the fight competitive, they chose to not have Exodus use a telepathic attack. So I don't just want to know that IW fought and beat Psi-Lord, who has, like, a million or so powers, I want to know that Psi-Lord tried to telepathically mindblast Sue and Sue blocked it. Psi-Lord using only telekinesis doesn't prove anything. Scans are extra appreciated, though not required.
IW sucker punching Emma doesn't prove anything. Should Emma have seen it coming? No, because telepaths have trained themselves to not listen to thoughts unless they're screamed out or they're in combat mode. Read any issue of X-men, and you always read an exchange like this:
Character thinks something
Emma: Oh, that's disgusting!
Character: Stay out of my thoughts!
Emma: I was, but you were positively screaming it!
Emma was not listening in because she wasn't primed for combat, and that's why she got nailed. It's a SUCKER PUNCH.
Wolverine gutted Magneto by jumping in out of nowhere and slashed him with METAL CLAWS. Is that any indicator whatsoever that Wolverine could EVER take Magneto in a fight? Of course not. So quit felching that two panel exchange because it doesn't predict anything at all about how this encounter would go. We KNOW that telepaths can be caught unawares. It happens frequently. They're telepaths, not gods. So don't say that Emma isn't as fast as I think - you don't know how fast I think she is. I'm not saying how fast she is, I'm saying that she's faster than Sue for all the reasons I spent five pages here and several pages on other threads explaining.
Sue has more steps to go through, and she HAS to both shape and direct her invisible objects. Otherwise, what does it come out as? What direction does it go? Those are decisions she has to make. She's not Cyclops, whose blasts come out at one speed from one place. It comes from anywhere she wants. The good thing about that is that it comes from anywhere she wants. The bad thing about that is that she has to decide where it comes from. It's a give and take that ultimately adds an extra step in her mental process. That's fact because that's how her powers work.
And finally, if she can't just "throw force". It ALWAYS takes a shape that SHE decides. There's never been a situation where otherwise is shown.
No more than Emma has to direct or focus on a mind. Sue's powers originate in another dimension. Hey constructs travel if she wants them to but generally they exst where she wants them to, ie a bubble around an individuals head. Or how about her powers manifesting in spatially distant places. Or how about her making the Earth invisble? did her field have to travel all around the Earth? Or how about making Terrax's field lifting Manhattan visible? Did the field of visibility travel? No she wasnt even looking at the field because it was already invisible.
Originally posted by Wynndar
sues attack can originate in Emma's mind just as well. U dont grasp Sue's powers. They are not a blasts that travel. They have no mass and are even more abstract tha TK because they originate in another dimension. IF Sue wants to make a field in Emma's head then its there. If she wants to make a resonance that destroys her body, then her body destructs. If your going to analyze and make conclusions about IW's powers you might want to read some F4 comics so that you know what they are, instead of assuming based on what you saw in the movie HAHAHA.
That's a great point, actually. Everybody pay attention to Wynndar, he speaks truth.
Sue DECIDES where her attack goes. If she wants it to originate in Emma's head, then by god, it originates in Emma's head. JUST LIKE THAT. As long as Sue DECIDES it, and THINKS about where it goes, that's where it goes!
Thank you, Wynndar.
To C-Master.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, it has, no different than the fact, that she's been affected by psionics quite fine, so without a plot device, (this match hint hint), how does this affect the fact that Susan reed can be exploited from Emma Frost's psionic attacks.Nowhere.
She resisted it because it's in her power to resist it. Why do so many people pussy out and call it a plot device?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Exactly what i've been trying to say to you, it doesn't happen, like a telepathic assault, its another step.I'm hoping you won't go back on this and say there's no step?
You're counting steps pointlessly then. Coz even Emma has to go through steps in that case.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It apples to this match, to manipulate or create, is a step and it takes time.Does Emma need to create anything, no.
True, but I don't understand this constant assumption that Emma can operate in the fractions of seconds Sue does.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It applies to both people, I never said how long it would or wouldn't take, they both move at the speed of [B]thought, keeping that in mind, more tasks means more thought, means more time.[/b]
I'd like to see the scientific proof that you're comparing Sue's powers to. Just curious as to how you measured her speed.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
This apples to both, no more than I spend aiming for my keyboard, its a step and it takes time.
Not for me. I touch type.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Otherwise it takes more time to construct a larger "field" if its not concentrated on a specific spot.
No it doesn't, but Wynndar has dealt with that.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I take a piss in a toilet in front of me, I have to direct AND aim my piss.
Yes. Not a hard task unless you're handicapped is it?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What are you aiming for incapacitiation, where?Emma's lower level attacks should work fine, depending on strength and location is sue's attacks.
You've gone off on so many tangents, I don't even know what you're referring to any more. What does it matter? LEVEL of attack? I swear you're just randomly hitting your keyboard with a hammer and seeing what comes out.
Sue isn't going to specifically aim is she? It's not like holding a gun and having to aim it. It's a very general aim that doesn't need to be pinpointed as much.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I said it took milliseconds, but that millisecond counts as well, thats an extra millisecond into a step, don't you see?
Yeah I see. That's only if you're clutching at straws though. Oh wait...
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Its all at the speed of thought, but one has more steps.
Yeah. That whole millisecond....whatever dude. You're being so unbelievably irrational. You've specified this battle so much that it's come down to milliseconds.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Its by nature of sues attack, its an extra step, here's a better analogy.My gun fires by thought, you have to pull your trigger...
To squeeze the trigger takes an additional step, no matter if it takes milliseconds.
Trading vices then. You still have the same amount of steps. Just a different step to mine. You're basing your WHOLE arguement around this pointless steps bullshit that I don't have ANY clue where you retrieved it from.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Speed of thought fast.
As is Sue, glad we could clear that up for the millionth time.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
My point is, speed of thought for eveyone, but one has more steps.
Because you're adding it by assuming what she's gonna do and clinging to the fact that Emma will beat Susan Storm-Richards in milliseconds. Bit fake isn't it? Let's be honest.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Spiderman ambushed xavier and tackled the xmen before he recovered.This is xavier too.
Yes? So? Point being?
Also, the lack of originality here is appalling. Just thought I'd say that.
Xmarks, no offence, but that would be like me posting an F4 comic where the X-Men got whooped. Though realistic, you'd surely claim bias.
-AC
Originally posted by demigawd
That's a great point, actually. Everybody pay attention to Wynndar, he speaks truth.Sue DECIDES where her attack goes. If she wants it to originate in Emma's head, then by god, it originates in Emma's head. JUST LIKE THAT. As long as Sue DECIDES it, and THINKS about where it goes, that's where it goes!
Thank you, Wynndar.