What can stop Richards/Summers Families

I find it very disapointing that you dont accept what is so obviously the case merely because the words God or TOAA arent mentioned. I also find it concerning that you're ignoring the fact Crown and Tiphereth are mentioned yet you dismiss them. Whether you believe in it or not Kaballah is a religion its a mystical offshoot of Judaism so dismissing the ideas is somewhat discriminatory Leon. Jean is stated to work for the Crown which is Gods consciousness in Kaballah, Jeans powers derive from the Crown, Jean is stated to have the role of tiphereth in creation. All of these things are stated in the comics and all are kaballah terms referring to God. Im betting if Phoenix was similarly linked to God via Christian terms you'd have no problem with it.

Not only that but in the Xmen/ Titans crossover the Phoenix force was represented as the Source.

Im really disappointed in your attitude.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
you dont wanna start that stupid argument again gs, even the infinity gauntlett can probably give omega jean trouble, and once and for all, her powers are not that of the one above all.

And it's not really stated or denied, but it's an assumption, that in GS's course of argumentation is quite logic, understandable and i'd say probable.

To the topic:
A Phoenix and a half, a quasi-Celestial, three persons with at least cosmic level powers (Nathan, Stryfe, Nate), a Supergenius and several accomplished heroes should be enough to beat everything beneath HOTU.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Any of these will make short work of your team.

The One Above All
The Heart Of The Universe
Eternity
Infinity
Oblivion
Death
The Living Tribunal

The Unknown

Also, please note that without Phoenix your team really isn't all that impressive.

No one, except The One Above All, The Heart Of The Universe.
Franklin and Phoenix would be more than enough to crush them.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
you dont wanna start that stupid argument again gs, even the infinity gauntlett can probably give omega jean trouble.

If it didn't give trouble to LT, I think it won't give 0.1% trouble to Jean.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You know nothing of the true beyonders to place them above the living tribunal. All you know is that they are beyond our multiverse in a pocket dimension and they are behind the cosmic cubes.

The infinity being is not current continuity and he and his power was fragmented into the infinity gauntlet. He is not above LT.

As expected you have missed out Phoenix out of spite however knowledgeable readers know the true story. Its current continuity deal with it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Tribunal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Beings

i know that what the fake beyonder did was a measure of the true powers of a single real beyonder, i know that they DO NOT live in a pocket dimension but in a dimension of intfinite size, i know the fake beyonder was more powerful than living tribunal, i know that the beyonders have been screwin with the multivere since the dawn of time, usin celestials too.

the infinity being is DIFFERENT from the infinite gem being which u r referring to, the infinity being was created by toaa, complete and omnipotent, it got sad after a while and commited suicide releasing its energy and creating the marvel multiverse, its definately more than the LT.

and as for the last part, LOL, what knowledgable comic book readers?! the ones that brought ur ass to the ground in the previous forums where u said pheonix was the power of TOAA?, lol, give it up galacticstorm.n im not gonna DEAL WITH IT no matter how many times u repeat that statement, because u dont DEAL with false facts,

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You're placing Psi-Lord above Eternity, Infinity, Oblivion, Death and Alpha Beast?

no im placin current franklin above em, psilord, for all his age, was not as powerful as tthe child franklin.

Do you even know who Alpha Beast is?!?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I find it very disapointing that you dont accept what is so obviously the case merely because the words God or TOAA arent mentioned. I also find it concerning that you're ignoring the fact Crown and Tiphereth are mentioned yet you dismiss them. Whether you believe in it or not Kaballah is a religion its a mystical offshoot of Judaism so dismissing the ideas is somewhat discriminatory Leon. Jean is stated to work for the Crown which is Gods consciousness in Kaballah, Jeans powers derive from the Crown, Jean is stated to have the role of tiphereth in creation. All of these things are stated in the comics and all are kaballah terms referring to God. Im betting if Phoenix was similarly linked to God via Christian terms you'd have no problem with it.

Not only that but in the Xmen/ Titans crossover the Phoenix force was represented as the Source.

Im really disappointed in your attitude.

ok ok, ur beein nice for a change GS, so heres my side of it, crown and tiphereth ARE MENTIONED, but that doesnt mean that they are TOAA, does it, even if it is in some relegion, for the vikings, odin was the creater and true ruler of the universe, {same rank as true GOD}, and thor was nuthin less than jesus himself. but in marvel, they have pretty trivial power levels, same goes for all the egyption, arabic, hindu, japanese and olympian{greek} gods, so seriously if u look at it, its not that difficult to see, that the room and the crown, are ofcourse places of great power, but seeing the evidence {the pure fatual evidence} of what jean and the pheonix has done, we can assume that since GOD was not mentioned, it is not really the supreme GOD'S power but an unconnected lower power{and this actually makes sense , in agreement with most of the evidence} thas all, so CHILL

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i know that what the fake beyonder did was a measure of the true powers of a single real beyonder, i know that they DO NOT live in a pocket dimension but in a dimension of intfinite size, i know the fake beyonder was more powerful than living tribunal, i know that the beyonders have been screwin with the multivere since the dawn of time, usin celestials too.

You really need to get into your head the concept of a retcon. Because of the retcon everything the beyonder did all of his feats are ignored, struck out of continuity like they never happened. We know nothing about the true beyonders except for the fact that they are the power behind the cosmic cubes. That is not enough to place them above LT.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the infinity being is DIFFERENT from the infinite gem being which u r referring to, the infinity being was created by toaa, complete and omnipotent, it got sad after a while and commited suicide releasing its energy and creating the marvel multiverse, its definately more than the LT.

The Infinity Being was (as per old continuity I.E IT DOESNT COUNT ANYMORE) responsible for the creation of this universe. He was bored and depressed and ended his existence. His power was split into the infinity Gems. The infinity Gems are ultimate power within a reality LT is above the IG and therefore the I Being.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and as for the last part, LOL, what knowledgable comic book readers?! the ones that brought ur ass to the ground in the previous forums where u said pheonix was the power of TOAA?, lol, give it up galacticstorm.n im not gonna DEAL WITH IT no matter how many times u repeat that statement, because u dont DEAL with false facts,

At the end of the day Kaballah is a wolrd wide religion. It is just as valid as any other religion. Phoenix is said to work for the Crown and its power is said to derive from the crown. In Kaballah the Crown is gods consciousness. For you to dismiss that just because the words god or heaven arent used is discriminatory and id be very careful if i was you. Like i said if Christian terms were used you'd accept what i was saying in a heartbeat. That is very narrow minded. Did you know Dc's Presence and Source and so on are Kaballah related as well?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You really need to get into your head the concept of a retcon. Because of the retcon everything the beyonder did all of his feats are ignored, struck out of continuity like they never happened. We know nothing about the true beyonders except for the fact that they are the power behind the cosmic cubes. That is not enough to place them above LT.

The Infinity Being was (as per old continuity I.E IT DOESNT COUNT ANYMORE) responsible for the creation of this universe. He was bored and depressed and ended his existence. His power was split into the infinity Gems. The infinity Gems are ultimate power within a reality LT is above the IG and therefore the I Being.

At the end of the day Kaballah is a wolrd wide religion. It is just as valid as any other religion. Phoenix is said to work for the Crown and its power is said to derive from the crown. In Kaballah the Crown is gods consciousness. For you to dismiss that just because the words god or heaven arent used is discriminatory and id be very careful if i was you. Like i said if Christian terms were used you'd accept what i was saying in a heartbeat. That is very narrow minded. Di dyou know Dc's Presence and Source and so on are Kaballah related as well?

the infinite being and the infinite gem being were two different beings gs, and the infinte being was responsible for THIS MULTIVERSE, and pheonix is part of this multiverse, not beyond it{hell it aint even beyond a universe} and dont talk to me about gettin stuff in my head, u should really be the one tryin out ur own advice for once. and you had bettre read up on the beyonders my friend, a lot about who they are has been told only u dont know it. doom even went to their own dimension.

and u said it, IN KABALLAH RELEGION, well its not as big a relegion as islam and christianity, not even buddhism, thas not what i accept as a relegion influential enough to be taken as the ultimate faith in a comic, and i WOULDNT ACCEPT if christian terms were used, 1rst off imnot a christian, lol, secondly even though it would be tempting, i still would need evidence that those terms should be taken literally, thirdly, many christian terms HAVE been mentioned, for example, every time nightcrawler says that god helped him out of death's jaws, I DONT BELIEVE HIM, neither did i believe mephisto when he said that he was the true devil. which he wasnt ofcourse, nor azazel, nightcrawler's father when he said the same thing and lied.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ok ok, ur beein nice for a change GS, so heres my side of it, crown and tiphereth ARE MENTIONED, but that doesnt mean that they are TOAA, does it, even if it is in some relegion, for the vikings, odin was the creater and true ruler of the universe, {same rank as true GOD}, and thor was nuthin less than jesus himself. but in marvel, they have pretty trivial power levels, same goes for all the egyption, arabic, hindu, japanese and olympian{greek} gods, so seriously if u look at it, its not that difficult to see, that the room and the crown, are ofcourse places of great power, but seeing the evidence {the pure fatual evidence} of what jean and the pheonix has done, we can assume that since GOD was not mentioned, it is not really the supreme GOD'S power but an unconnected lower power{and this actually makes sense , in agreement with most of the evidence} thas all, so CHILL

On top of Jean and her power being directly linked to God through Kaballah terms. What you're forgetting is that the God of Kaballah is the same one as Chrsitianity, Islam and Judaism. The crossover with DC was made canon so that means the multiverses are all part of a big omniverse after all. TOAA and Presence therefore are either one and the same or are aspects of one omniversal supreme being being. In crossovers Phoenix is shown as the Source. In Xmen Forever Phoenix is shown to be the only constant in existence. Whilst the abstracts get replaced with every new creation (that phoenix makes) by their universes evolved humanity Phoenix is the only constant. It constantly steers evolution towards the omega point Big bang after big bang, crunch after crunch. LT and the abstracts deemed Phoenixes work a part of the natural order and as such couldnt interfere. If the natural order that LT seeks to retain is not the will of God then what is?

thas not really what i meant GS. u seem to get too involved in what ur sayin n avoid what others have written, ur just too sure of urself.

GS: Phoenix is this.
Someone else: No she isn't.
GS: Phoenix is this.
Someone else: No she isn't.
GS: Phoenix is this.
Someone else: No she isn't.
GS: Phoenix is this.
Someone else: No she isn't.
GS: Phoenix is this.
Someone else: No she isn't.
Can't you just agree to disagree?

lol

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the infinite being and the infinite gem being were two different beings gs, and the infinte being was responsible for THIS MULTIVERSE, and pheonix is part of this multiverse, not beyond it{hell it aint even beyond a universe} and dont talk to me about gettin stuff in my head, u should really be the one tryin out ur own advice for once. and you had bettre read up on the beyonders my friend, a lot about who they are has been told only u dont know it. doom even went to their own dimension.

Im not saying the Infinity Being is just the Infinity Gem where are you getting that from? lol. The Infinity Being after his depression gave up on life and he fragmented into all of the Infinity Gems. That is common knowledge. There was even a seventh relatively new gem that was revealed called the Ego gem that could resurrect the Infinity Being however while that was in a crossover it still shows that the Infinity Gems are very much the fragmented power of the Infinity Being. The Phoenix force is derived from the Crown. The Crown is Gods consciousness. Jean gets her power from this making her a phoenix and she works for the Crown consciousness. The fact that all of the abstracts are created by Phoenix and that LT and they said Jeans work is a part of the natural order further support the case. You'd think the supreme being would have a little involvement with the creation of the multiverse wouldnt you? lol. The Infinity Being as per old continuity created only this universe im afraid. Read up on him. I know im quite correct. However forget this talk he is no longer current continuity. Phoenix is and thats all that matters.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and u said it, IN KABALLAH RELEGION, well its not as big a relegion as islam and christianity, not even buddhism, thas not what i accept as a relegion influential enough to be taken as the ultimate faith in a comic, and i WOULDNT ACCEPT if christian terms were used, 1rst off imnot a christian, lol, secondly even though it would be tempting, i still would need evidence that those terms should be taken literally, thirdly, many christian terms HAVE been mentioned, for example, every time nightcrawler says that god helped him out of death's jaws, I DONT BELIEVE HIM, neither did i believe mephisto when he said that he was the true devil. which he wasnt ofcourse, nor azazel, nightcrawler's father when he said the same thing and lied.

Come on Leon thats very different 😆 Thats just a phrase and for Mephisto just bolstering . Phoenix is shown to be a higher level being, as per current continuity she is stated to be responsible for the creation process, her work is shown to be in accordance with LT's. The fact that LT is shown to be a victim of the creation process says it all. He works for TOAA yet the creation process Jean carries out which claims him he accepts as a part of the natural order. What does that tell you?

The Phoenix shard of Jeans which empowered Rachel was even shown in a peer like role of LT's in a What if.

Kaballah isnt just some minor religion it is an offshoot of Judaism. It has the same God as it , Christianity and Islam. Dc's God is even based on Kaballah principles. Phoenix in crossovers is shown as the the Source. With a DC crossover becoming canon it means the multiverses are neighbours. Therefore the supreme beings are connected.

"The Crown is Gods consciousness. Jean gets her power from this making her a phoenix and she works for the Crown consciousness. The fact that all of the abstracts are created by Phoenix and that LT and they said Jeans work is a part of the natural order further support the case. You'd think the supreme being would have a little involvement with the creation of the multiverse wouldnt you? lol. The Infinity Being as per old continuity created only this universe im afraid. Read up on him. I know im quite correct. However forget this talk he is no longer current continuity. Phoenix is and thats all that matters. "

thas just speculation GS AGAIN! ur just statin again n agian that the crown is=god's contionce wont change anythin as far as the evidence goes, nuthi even resemblin that is found in the comics. and secondly, i never saw the living tribunal being a victim off jean and the pheonix's role, EVER. and i have already told you why logically CREATION here probably means universal creation not multiversal creation{just like eternity is CREATION} there is nuthin to say that it was multiversal creation.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
"The Crown is Gods consciousness. Jean gets her power from this making her a phoenix and she works for the Crown consciousness. The fact that all of the abstracts are created by Phoenix and that LT and they said Jeans work is a part of the natural order further support the case. You'd think the supreme being would have a little involvement with the creation of the multiverse wouldnt you? lol. The Infinity Being as per old continuity created only this universe im afraid. Read up on him. I know im quite correct. However forget this talk he is no longer current continuity. Phoenix is and thats all that matters. "

thas just speculation GS AGAIN! ur just statin again n agian that the crown is=god's contionce wont change anythin as far as the evidence goes, nuthi even resemblin that is found in the comics. and secondly, i never saw the living tribunal being a victim off jean and the pheonix's role, EVER. and i have already told you why logically CREATION here probably means universal creation not multiversal creation{just like eternity is CREATION} there is nuthin to say that it was multiversal creation.

The very definition of Crown in terms of Kaballah its very role is that it is Gods consciousness (The same God of Christianity, Islam, Judaism just from a different perspective). Phoenix as featured in the comics is dealt with in terms of Kaballah like it or loathe it. If the comic says Jean works for and draws power from the Crown then that means God.

Xmen Forever showed that Phoenix is the constant of creation. It keeps the creation cycle going. All of the abstracts and Galactus are merely the evolved humanity of the previous universe.. Phoenix is responsible for creation and it steers evolution towards a convergence with the omega point. At this point everything ends before creation is started again by Phoenix. All of this was stated in the comic explicitly. The comic showed that if the Stranger harnessed the phoenix power then he would be able to speed up the process and emerge in the new creation as the supreme being beyond all including LT.

The fact that LT was shown on a number of occassions to be concerned about the Strangers plans and that he was one of those to be absorbed shows you that ultimately it is a multiversal process or which makes sense because how else would LT be humbled? The H.O.T.U mentioned nothing of the multiverse and the range of its power was shown on panel to be universal yet it was potent enough to deal with LT.

Thanos said HOTU was gods power so whats the difference between that and Phoenix being called the Crowns power?

I still think HOTU is gretear than Phoenix. He literally just thought aobut and it was done, he was almighty, Phoenix is not. Maby HOTU has compeltely equal to God power, but is still bellow God, cause God created it. Phoenix is bellow in my opinion to HOTU. LT was literally shown as insect compared to HOTU.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I still think HOTU is gretear than Phoenix. He literally just thought aobut and it was done, he was almighty, Phoenix is not. Maby HOTU has compeltely equal to God power, but is still bellow God, cause God created it. Phoenix is bellow in my opinion to HOTU. LT was literally shown as insect compared to HOTU.

My point was that Leon was saying because the words TOAA werent mentioned or multiverse that Phoenixes power was universal and definitely not linked with God. Thats why i brought HOTU into it because the multiverse isnt even mentioned in the comic, it only affected a universe yet LT was concerned and was defeated. TOAA also wasnt mentioned in that comic yet everyones readily accepts HOTU as gods power and wont do the same for phoenix. Despite it being stated to be the Crowns power, Jean being shown to work on a multiversal level and the phoenix power being depicted as something that could make a wielder supreme over all of creation. That was my point.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My point was that Leon was saying because the words TOAA werent mentioned or multiverse that Phoenixes power was universal and definitely not linked with God. Thats why i brought HOTU into it because the multiverse isnt even mentioned in the comic, it only affected a universe yet LT was concerned and was defeated. TOAA also wasnt mentioned in that comic yet everyones readily accepts HOTU as gods power and wont do the same for phoenix. Despite it being stated to be the Crowns power, Jean being shown to work on a multiversal level and the phoenix power being depicted as something that could make a wielder supreme over all of creation. That was my point.

Ok, but I thought everyone had known Phoenix is multiversal, of course it is.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My point was that Leon was saying because the words TOAA werent mentioned or multiverse that Phoenixes power was universal and definitely not linked with God. Thats why i brought HOTU into it because the multiverse isnt even mentioned in the comic, it only affected a universe yet LT was concerned and was defeated. TOAA also wasnt mentioned in that comic yet everyones readily accepts HOTU as gods power and wont do the same for phoenix. Despite it being stated to be the Crowns power, Jean being shown to work on a multiversal level and the phoenix power being depicted as something that could make a wielder supreme over all of creation. That was my point.

Ok, but I thought everyone had known Phoenix is multiversal, of course it is.
Phoenix as a being is the supreme being in the marvel universe, second only to TOAA. But as power shown ever in MU I would go Phoenix behind TOAA and HOTU.