Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

Originally posted by Rampant ox
No, it doesnt. Most of the jedi order are weak compared to the lead characters. Jedi are peace keepers - not fighters. Sidious is the strongest person in the PT, of course he was going to pwn Fisto. He is just so much better. No different with Vader. The jedi masters are nothing special so Vader pwns them. Whats to say Dooku couldnt couldnt beat thes masters? Absolutley nothing. And like I have said several times already Dooku far prefers one on one combat. Point moot.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Maybe. Maybe not. We dont know becasue of the simple fact we cant weigh them. Point moot.
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Originally posted by Rampant ox
Kenobi was better with the force but not with a blade. And I dont recall Kenobi using any force powers. Which means his weak lightsaber abilities lasted longer against Vader than his peaked out lightsaber abilities lasted against Dooku. So your point fails - again.
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Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol. You really think he is going t be able to do this to Dooku? No, he cant, stop pretending he can.[/B]

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What a load of bullsh*t. How the f*ck would you know if it was to intimidate Luke or not? you dont, you are just twisitng what happened to suit your argument.
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Originally posted by Rampant ox

Kit Fisto is weak. Especially compared to Sidious and most other lead jedi.[/B]

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, all of your pathetic, opinionated points have been pwned. You fail, try again later. [/B]

and lets not forget his telekenesis. he used the force to bring down a super tall tree to crush the dark women, and if im not wrong he even used the waterfall to blind and make the dark lady slip and fall,. i may be wrong here so some1 correct me

now it is you who have failed, accept it, all of us has beaten your points time and again and will continue to do so.

the 7 jedis werent weak, they knew who vader was, how dangerous he is and one of them prepared for the fight,

vader even used the force to lift the blade and spear the other jedi killing him instantly,

o yea? and in rodv, his throwing of wooden planks were fast enough to off balance shryne, carved through an army of wookies, fought in a 2v1 match, and after TESB fought with robots who has mastered the 7 forms of lightsaber comabt, again i might be wrong here but he fought this practise robots in 3.5aby, source from wiki

Originally posted by VadersElements
[B]whats to say the masters are weak to vader? like i said its a 7 v 1 match, and vader has demonstrated incredible abilities in that fight, killing a jedi with their bare hands, taking a duel with 3 on 1, and in rodv killing a very experienced jedi master, here again ur points fall

Do you get the concept that most jedi masters are weak? Most of them are no more than diplomats. The key jedi we see in the movies are extremely powerful. Now if you take a jedi from the movies and pair them with some random jedi master they are almost certainly going to win. This doesnt make them godly.

we can tell that they are hollow, how? the sounds of it when it drops, empty vessels make the most noise, get it? i may be wrong so correct me. if it was not hollow you would hear a heavy thump, since we heared a clang, i assume its hollow

Hmmm possibly. But they are certainly not light. And then there is the fact he ripped them out of a solid stone wall.

because kenobi couldnt risk executing a force power on vader during saber combat? that already proves dooku cant during a strike

Bullsh*t. Im sorry but it has to be said. A large portion of that duel they were eyeballing each other. Are you saying Kenobi wouldnt be able to execute a force power then?

who says so, if he can do it to a human he sure can do it to dooku, prove that he cant

Jesus f*ckin christ. Do you honeslty beleive that Vader would be able to do this to Dooku? If so then there is no point in debating with you. "Then you truly are lost"

how do we know? we know he wasnt trying to kill him, we with common sense knows that he is showing his abilities to luke, as dooku did to test yoda. point moot

Exactly. Point moot.

so that means the jedi who died in the B.O.G are very weak, because kit survived? and no, kit is above avgerage, he is stronger than other jedis

Most of the jedi that dies that day were weak - especially in comparison to the sagas lead jedi.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Do you get the concept that most jedi masters are weak? Most of them are no more than diplomats. The key jedi we see in the movies are extremely powerful. Now if you take a jedi from the movies and pair them with some random jedi master they are almost certainly going to win. This doesnt make them godly.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hmmm possibly. But they are certainly not light. And then there is the fact he ripped them out of a solid stone wall.
.[/B]

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Bullsh*t. Im sorry but it has to be said. A large portion of that duel they were eyeballing each other. Are you saying Kenobi wouldnt be able to execute a force power then?[/B]

Jesus f*cki

Originally posted by Rampant ox n christ. Do you honeslty beleive that Vader would be able to do this to Dooku? If so then there is no point in debating with you. "Then you truly are lost".[/B]

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Most of the jedi that dies that day were weak - especially in comparison to the sagas lead jedi. [/B]

again you fail to prove how dooku wins vader

We have strayed completely off topic by your pointless ramblings. I shall be back tomorrow to continue this argument. Good night.

ntie nite, no they are not pointless, and i do respect your arguements and listen, i do respect you really love dooku as in a fan lol and so do i love vader

Dooku is not that powerful"? Kreiger, spare us your baseless ramblings.

Certainly, the likes of Yoda and Palpatine are a good step or two ahead of him; Mace is by a bit, and so is Anakin in lightsaber ability - but that doesn't make Dooku weak.

On the contrary, Yoda refers to Dooku as being "his greatest pupil", as well as one of the most powerful practitioners of the Force in the Order's history.

Dooku's got nearly eight decades of experience; he is the most skilled practitioner of the lightsaber-to-lightsaber fighting form; and he is the pupil of the two most powerful Jedi and Sith in the movies (and in the EU - other than Luke): Yoda and Palpatine.

I'd easily put Dooku on par with a Malak, a Kyp Durron, and a Kyle Katarn in terms of sheer bladework and ability. He is far from weak - and he is extremely powerful.

However, Rampant, Advent and I have been through this with you. Anakin is more skilled than Dooku in lightsaber ability and Force potential.

He's not going to plow through Vader.

Hmm, I'm not so sure anymore. I used to view even Anakin and Depa as being above him (swordsmanship), but know I'd probably only put Yoda above him.

who lasted longer as a sith?
dooku or vader?
and can someone please remind me who killed dooku?
oh yeah anakin.
and who is anakin again?
oh yeah he's vader
so i think, actually i know, vader takes this one

Its not the fact that we think Dooku is weak, its you people think Vader is weak for some damn reason. When he got beat by OB1, he was weakened as far as potential goes. He didn't lose anything. Everything he had stayed with him, and he still got better, just not to his full potential. 8 decades really means nothing. Once you reach a certain level, your capped. You don't get any better, you simply maintain what you can do. You can not say that Dooku improved for 80 years, and Yoda for 900...if that were the case then there would be no way in hell that Palps could of beaten Yoda, which honestly he got lucky anyways. I'd say when Dooku was about 40 to 45, he was topped out in ability, then when he went to the Darkside, he didn't get stronger, just learned different things. If Anakin beat him at 23 or 24, he can most definitely beat him in his 40's with a higher degree of force perfection.

When he got beat by OB1, he was weakened as far as potential goes. He didn't lose anything. Everything he had stayed with him, and he still got better, just not to his full potential.

This is very wrong Subject. A jedi's midichlorian count also dictates how their force connection is as well as potential; force connection is basically how well a jedi can 'feel' the force, how apparent the energy field is to him. Now because Anakin had such a strong connection to the force, he found it easier to feel the force, the force was more evident to him than it was to other jedi. So by having his midichlorian count suffer by such a high degree, this meant that he no longer had as much ease in feeling the force and thus his current ability suffered heavily too.

Midichlorian counts are based of ratios, not total count. If it were, they wouldn't be able to tell he had a count of over 20,000 from one prick of blood. It was even stated that he didn't get weaker, he just couldn't reach his full potential. I'll find the quote when i go to work.

And?

Kas'Im, Palpatine orchestrated the final duel between Count Dooku and Anakin in Revenge of the Sith with the thought in mind that it would decide on whether or not Dooku would continue to remain his apprentice.

George Lucas provided the commentary; if Dooku defeated Anakin, Palpatine would wait to attempt to claim Anakin as his apprentice. It was a test of Anakin's strength, and according to Lucas, Anakin "proved his strength by killing Dooku".

The RotS script, novelization, and even its prequel - Labyrinth of Evil - support this. The only thing that Palpatine didn't do is tell Dooku of the consequence if he failed. He wasn't going to save him if Anakin beat him.

Not that Anakin is a mile ahead of him in bladework, no.

Dooku held him and Obi-Wan at bay. Obi-Wan was what restrained Anakin - kept him from giving into his anger. When Dooku put Obi-Wan out of the fight, Anakin's restraint was gone. When he gave into his anger, he became more powerful than Count Dooku.

And, as for the midichlorian thing...

From what I understand, Anakin's injuries prevented him from ever reaching his full potential. It took away 120% of his overall ultimate level of skill - not that it necessarily made him weaker than RotS Anakin.

Indeed, twenty years of studying the Force seemed to make him stronger - in a few ways.

Firstly, his mechanical suit did remove his considerable agility and overall speed - but it enhanced his physical strength greatly.

He also learned patience, and how to fully utilize the environment to his advantage, and he was able to explore his Dark Side powers more.

I'd say he improved from RotS Anakin, but not by a mile.

AMEN BROTHER!!! Thank you for that.

What you are saying is that OT Vader<ROTS Anakin<Dooku. I think we all know what that is and how that never works in an argument. Vader and Anakin are basically two different people (as far as fighting goes). The ROTS battle with Anakin has no factor in this fight at all.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What you are saying is that OT Vader<ROTS Anakin<Dooku. I think we all know what that is and how that never works in an argument. Vader and Anakin are basically two different people (as far as fighting goes). The ROTS battle with Anakin has no factor in this fight at all.

What a completely ridiculous assertion on your part, Rampant. Your personal preference and bias in all things related to Dooku clouds your judgment considerably.

The fight between Anakin and Count Dooku does factor in, and it factors in considerably.

I thought I explained before: Count Dooku held his own against Obi-Wan and Anakin in Revenge of the Sith because Obi-Wan was a restraining presence. Anakin was holding back, holding back his rage and anger.

The moment that Count Dooku puts Obi-Wan out of the fight, take a good look. Anakin kicks Dooku over the railing, and proceeds to dominate the fight. The script, commentary, and evidence provided by Advent and I time and time again have already proven that when Anakin tapped into his rage - he became more powerful than Count Dooku and it enabled him to beat him.

OT Vader has that same rage. However, he has also learned the virtues of patience and resourcefulness.

He's improved in his study of the Dark Side of the Force, twenty years - which is longer than Dooku had to study.

Unless Dooku can disable and kill Vader with Force lightning, I don't see Vader losing at all.

'OT Vader has that same rage. However, he has also learned the virtues of patience and resourcefulness.

He's improved in his study of the Dark Side of the Force, twenty years - which is longer than Dooku had to study.

Unless Dooku can disable and kill Vader with Force lightning, I don't see Vader losing at all'

The thing is, Vader is much slower, and speed is a huge part of Schien, and the fact that Vader is slow means that he can't use Schien as effectively as before.

No. I dont deny that Anakin won in ROTS. But ROTS Anakin and OT Vader are two completely different fighters. You cant say that because ROTS Anakin can win Vader can as well. They fight differently, have different attributes etc. And in regards to study of the force, Dooku has had decades more light side training than Vader. He might not have had as much direct dark side training from Sidious but you conveniently seem to forgot that he found and studied from a sith holocron while at the temple.

Ok just a harmless question, so no one needs to freak about this...

What keeps Dooku from just flinging Anakin away in a new fight with the force? If they start like 10m apart, what keeps Dooku from pwning Anakin with the force? It's to late to use it if they are fighting with sabers, cause then Anakin will get the better of him eventually, but if there is a distance between them, what keeps him from pwning Anakin with the force?

No. I dont deny that Anakin won in ROTS. But ROTS Anakin and OT Vader are two completely different fighters. You cant say that because ROTS Anakin can win Vader can as well.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say "since Anakin won in RotS, Vader can win as well"? See, I don't recall saying that.

- Vader's still got the same overpowering rage.
- Vader's still got the same overpowering strength.
- He's gained up a lot more experience.
- He's gained twenty years of Dark Side training via Palpatine.
- Vader's gained considerable patience.
- Vader's a master of using the environment to his advantage.

That is why I say he can win, if Dooku doesn't kill him with Force lightning.

And in regards to study of the force, Dooku has had decades more light side training than Vader. He might not have had as much direct dark side training from Sidious but you conveniently seem to forgot that he found and studied from a sith holocron while at the temple.

Oh, yes. Studying a single Sith holocron suddenly adds 10+ years of experience for Dooku.

Wrong.

Factor in that Sidious has several holocrons in his possession, as well as all of the information from Ziost, Korriban, the Jedi Temple, and other focal points of Force activity - which he undoubtably tought to Vader - Vader's got far more Dark Side experience than Dooku.