Originally posted by Kas'Im
2 holocrons actually, most likely more. Vader also has much less speed, agility and maneuverability.
I'm not going to get into that particular argument (due to how irritating it can get), but it's confirmed that Palpatine's "got more knowledge than any Sith before him".
Lost techniques? He rediscovered. Existing techniques? He knows. New techniques? "He creates at his own leisure".
The Visual Guide and Star Wars: Locations specifically say that he's got a ton of Sith knowledge and a lot of holocrons.
http://starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html
Check that out.
He basically says that we never really saw real jedi fight in the older movies, only an old man, untrained boy and half crippled droid, and that he wanted to make the fights in the new movies more energized, so we get to see real jedi fight in the prime of the jedi. I can't provide exact quotes because for some reason my pc is feckin up, but just check it out yourselves, that's basically what he says.
I'm not going to get into that particular argument (due to how irritating it can get), but it's confirmed that Palpatine's "got more knowledge than any Sith before him".Lost techniques? He rediscovered. Existing techniques? He knows. New techniques? "He creates at his own leisure".
The Visual Guide and Star Wars: Locations specifically say that he's got a ton of Sith knowledge and a lot of holocrons.
lol I know, if I made it seem like I was saying that Dooku had as much knowledge or possibly even more, I'll just make it clear that I wasn't. I was just stating that he had two sith holocrons, Darth Andeddu's as well as the one he briefly studied from the jedi temple.
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Rampant Ox, Dooku is NOT more powerful than Vader, the ONLY thing he has going for him is Force Lightning, and Vader won't have a problem stopping that. Vader >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DookuStop being a fanboy
Another load of bullsh*t. This is ESB Vader. We see him in the movie slow, clunky and as nothing special. Put Dooku in Lukes place and Vader will not win. That simple. I dont know what you mean about the 'only' thing Dooku has going for him. Dooku is faster, has more experience with the force and a blade, has the significant advantage of force lightning, has mastered the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat and is not restricted by a large heavy suit. And what is that sh*t about Vader being '>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>' better than Dooku. Its as stupid (if not more so) than your comment about Dooku being an above average jedi.
First off, we don't see Vader go all out in ESb until Luke tags his shoulder and then the fights over in 3 seconds. So we don't see what Vader can actually do, would you agree? I see it hard not to see that. Dooku will not just win, its not "that simple". He's faster, Vader's stronger, he has more time in lightside training, however when Vader was a Jedi, he had a stronger connection than any Jedi and learned more than in that time that other Jedi did in the same amount of time, Dooku has roughly 7 - 8 years of Darkside training, Vader has 20 under Palps. Dooku has Lightning, Vader has his choke and other dangerous force powers. Dooku has training in the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat, a form which falls easily to Vader's. Its not that simple as you see.
Vaders suit isn't as heavy to him as it would be to us, we're not cybernetic and we don't have super enhanced strength....he does. You cant look at it like an actor wearing it, its a part of Vader, he has gotten used to it. And by ESB its not like what human muscles he does have aren't conditioned to the weight. If yo life weights for 20 years, you WILL get stronger. I doubt his suit gets heavier as time goes by.
I'm sorry, I have given Dooku more than his just dues, but Vader is above him and would win the fight.
The thing is, Anakin Skywalker was both fast and physically strong, however Vader is only physically strong, not fast and it is generally the combo of speed and power that counters Makashi - if all Vader has is strength, Dooku would be able to handle it a lot more easily than both speed and strength.
And Subjekt, you seem to be ignoring how Lucas basically stated that the OT duelists were inferior to the PT duelists, even relatively weak ones like Maul and Jinn.
Originally posted by Kas'Imyour arguements fall apart when i tell you about vaders speed and agility in crimson empire,
The thing is, Anakin Skywalker was both fast and physically strong, however Vader is only physically strong, not fast and it is generally the combo of speed and power that counters Makashi - if all Vader has is strength, Dooku would be able to handle it a lot more easily than both speed and strength.And Subjekt, you seem to be ignoring how Lucas basically stated that the OT duelists were inferior to the PT duelists, even relatively weak ones like Maul and Jinn.
and in ESB vader is decent, not slow and clunky, and we dont see how vader really fights in the movies, point moot
still movies are higher canon, but do we see vader really fightning? hell no, simple,
and being slow doesnt mean you will lose, look at rodv and vader in the purge, he wtf pwned 3 jedi masters on the PT era, and not to forget vaders force powers triumphs over dookus.
if you want to argue about vader speed contradiction then lets put in boba fett, he officially died in rotj and we see him in DE when he said he escaped the sarlacc, so? we actually saw him die what, and seeing is believing, still you must give credit to the EU about vader,
vader has done more extraordinay things, and believe me, the way vader strikes with djem so will over power dookus makashi,
sidious was slower than yoda and yet sidious beat yoda, so what if vader is slow which he isnt? which he is decent in the movies and agile in the EU?
your arguements fall apart when i tell you about vaders speed and agility in crimson empire
Your argument falls apart when I tell you about Vader's speed and agility in the highest form of canon.
and in ESB vader is decent, not slow and clunky, and we dont see how vader really fights in the movies, point moot
1. No, he is pretty damn slow and quite frankly terrible. GL stated basically labelled him as a half crippled droid.
2. What the feck are you talking about, what do you mean we don't see how Vader fights in the movies.
still movies are higher canon, but do we see vader really fightning? hell no, simple,
Yes we do, and he goes full out against Obi-Wan (just brought that up in case you were arguing that Vader always holds back against Luke, and so we don't see how he really fights, because we do see him at his best against Obi-Wan).
and being slow doesnt mean you will lose, look at rodv and vader in the purge, he wtf pwned 3 jedi masters on the PT era, and not to forget vaders force powers triumphs over dookus.
1. My point was that it is generally the combo of great speed anf physical strength that makes Schien so effective against Makashi, without speed, not so much.
2. He didn't pwn those jedi (not all of them were masters), he struggled with them and needed the help of his clones to defeat pretty much the only decent one of the lot.
if you want to argue about vader speed contradiction then lets put in boba fett, he officially died in rotj and we see him in DE when he said he escaped the sarlacc, so? we actually saw him die what, and seeing is believing, still you must give credit to the EU about vader,
Wrong, there is no contradiction. We don't actually see Boba die, just only enter the Sarlacc, and this is not contradicted in any EU.
vader has done more extraordinay things, and believe me, the way vader strikes with djem so will over power dookus makashi,
Why? Because he's physically stronger than ROTS Anakin? It doesn't mean jack, without speed his Schien is just not as skilled as it was in ROTS, and power isn't quite overwhelming enough to counter Makashi; it is a combo of speed and power.
sidious was slower than yoda and yet sidious beat yoda,
Sidious didn't defeat Yoda in saber combat. And Sidious isn't exactly slow or anything, with his force assisted Ataru, he's pretty fast and agile. And you've clearly missed my point about speed anyway, read what I posted again, and try to understand it.
so that means boba fett is dead? its what we see in the movies isnt it,
and frankly speaking, CE and RODV showed vader being faster that the moives, which still must be givin credit to.
and makashi? djem so is based on strength, vaders body movement is slow yes but not is hand movements of the lightsaber and note that makashi is a defensive not offensive,
and the jedi in the purge? yes they were masters,
and it was 7 v1, vadre is still a apprentice, and he got back stabbed 3 times, again as i said he swiftly killed 3 of them and broke the neck of 1 of the jedi and fought while choking another jedi, point moot his force abilities even showed us that he tore metal from metal
Originally posted by San'Doria
[B]your arguements fall apart when i tell you about vaders speed and agility in crimson empire,
We have already been over this. Vader is not as fast as in Crimson Empire or any other EU. He is slow, accept it and move on.
and in ESB vader is decent, not slow and clunky, and we dont see how vader really fights in the movies, point moot
Really? So in ROTJ he wasnt 'really' fighting. He was just moving slowly to let Luke win, is that what your saying?
and being slow doesnt mean you will lose, look at rodv and vader in the purge, he wtf pwned 3 jedi masters on the PT era,
Those jedi masters sucked - they are insignificant specks compared to Dooku.
and not to forget vaders force powers triumphs over dookus.
Perhaps. But lets not forget that Dooku has knowledge of lightning, Vaders main weakness.
vader has done more extraordinay things, and believe me, the way vader strikes with djem so will over power dookus makashi,
But I dont beleive you. In ROTS his strenght was coupled with his speed, thus being able to blow Dooku back. Here Vader is relatively slow, he will not be able to do this very easily.
sidious was slower than yoda and yet sidious beat yoda,
so what if vader is slow which he isnt? which he is decent in the movies and agile in the EU?
Vader is slow. There is no point in debating it.
so that means boba fett is dead? its what we see in the movies isnt it
Nope, we see Boba falling into the Sarlacc, we assume he dies, however knowing there's the possibility that he survives as we never actually see him die. The EU doesn't contradict what we see in the movies, how are you not getting this.
and frankly speaking, CE and RODV showed vader being faster that the moives, which still must be givin credit to
CE really doesn't, it shows him being pretty skilled, not fast. At least that's what I remembered, and if it did than it is simply contradicting the movies. And as for RODV, if it does, it is simply contradicting the movies, though I don't know if I should trust that it does, as you stated that CE did when it clearly doesn't.
and makashi? djem so is based on strength
Speed too, combines speed and power to overwhelm opponents.
vaders body movement is slow yes but not is hand movements of the lightsaber
Since when?
makashi is a defensive not offensive,
Since when? It's more of a balance between the two.
and the jedi in the purge? yes they were masters,
Proof? Sia-Lan Wezz for one wasn't a master.
actually watch that with the commentary on, your precious Lucas says as far as he's considered, Boba is DEAD!
Im honestly getting sick of arguing about this. Im not changing my mind, and youre not changing yours. Ill offer you a draw for the common good of thd darkside. Accpet?
I say "precious" cause i hate all the bullshit excuses he gives for lack of technology and funding...however i know its canon so im not arguing that. But i will say as i did before, in ESB he's only really slow intil Luke tags his arm, then the fight is over in like 3 seconds, so no, we really dont see him going "all out" in ESB.
Actually your reading skills are a joke. I did agree earlier, but people like you kept spouting fanboy Dooku shit and so i kept going to. I'm not conceding anything, and yea i like Vader, but I'm stating simple and obvious truths about vader while you keep talking shit. That hardly makes me a fanboy, especially compared to you and OX. If anything, LightElement is the biggest Vader fanboy here. I said before sure ill accept that title in jest. But I believe that Vader would win. I've stated, and rather harshly to ESBV/LE that Vader is considerably slower than Anakin and Dooku, so that makes me a fanboy? Please explain how I am. And really the latter part of that post, IE the draw, was directed to Ox, not you at all. I couldn't care less about your blatant fanboy ramblings. Hardly anything you say is factual, not to say "everything" you is not based on facts, but large portions. You all constantly bring Dooku's EU credentials in to this, but smugly dismiss Vader's cause you know it stacks against Dooku. You twist words and statements to support pathetic claims and arguments and don't convince anyone but yourself.
And i notice how you conviently didn't mention anything else about Fett actually being dead. Joke? Yes indeed, i see one every time you post.
Originally posted by Kas'Imyes, we assume he is dead, its what we shaw, its obvious, and rampant, maybe you should accept the he isnt slow, as fetured in TESB
Nope, we see Boba falling into the Sarlacc, we assume he dies, however knowing there's the possibility that he survives as we never actually see him die. The EU doesn't contradict what we see in the movies, how are you not getting this.
Originally posted by Kas'Imyes it did, you damm liar you didnt even read CE, it showed a flash back with vader wielding a double bladed vibro sword, you god damm liar, if it contradicts the movies statements would come out, vaders body movement is slow, but not his hands and arms, The OT proved this, to both of you kasim and rampant, TESB featured vaders quick strikes, and with a combination of his physical strength, he beats dooku
CE really doesn't, it shows him being pretty skilled, not fast. At least that's what I remembered, and if it did than it is simply contradicting the movies. And as for RODV, if it does, it is simply contradicting the movies, though I don't know if I should trust that it does, as you stated that CE did when it clearly doesn't.[/B]
Originally posted by Kas'Imnot necessarily, vaders super strength makes up for his lack of reflexs and his lightsaber form is custamised to compensate, as i said his striking is fast but not his body motion, owned you again, that breaks ur saying of saying vader is slow and useless.
Speed too, combines speed and power to overwhelm opponents.
.[/B]
Originally posted by Kas'Imsince the movies, since when have we ever seen dooku getting offensive? yes he does with makashi but its most of the time defensive, makashi IS A DEFENSIVE technique,
Since when?
.[/B]
Originally posted by Rampant oxyes we have, but as i said, his body movement is slow, but certeinly not his hands, his striking, TESB ROTJ and even ANH proved this
We have already been over this. Vader is not as fast as in Crimson Empire or any other EU. He is slow, accept it and move on.
Originally posted by Rampant oxfrankly speaking you dont understand what im saying, do we see vader fightning at his max at full powered in the movies? hell no, we see how he really fights and kill his opponents in the EU, tell me which damm jedi has he really killed besides obi wan in the moives
Really? So in ROTJ he wasnt 'really' fighting. He was just moving slowly to let Luke win, is that what your saying?
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Originally posted by Rampant oxseems you cant acept the fact that vader is far stronger than those jedi masteres and considering the fact that it takes 20-30 years to become a master, and in 20-30 years you get hell alot of experience, yes dooku is very experienced and powerful, i dont deny
Those jedi masters sucked - they are insignificant specks compared to Dooku.
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Originally posted by Rampant oxlets not forget vader has a lightsaber to block it, and vader tends to use crush as an instant kill, stated by prince xizor, vader tends to kill his victims instantly with crush
Perhaps. But lets not forget that Dooku has knowledge of lightning, Vaders main weakness.
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Originally posted by Rampant oxas i said his super strength makes up for his speed and note the fact i keep saying that vaders striking is no different from anakins, note the fact that he adds in other elements to his djem so to enhance it.But I dont beleive you. In ROTS his strenght was coupled with his speed, thus being able to blow Dooku back. Here Vader is relatively slow, he will not be able to do this very easily.
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Originally posted by Rampant oxagreeable, but its his body, not his strikingVader is slow. There is no point in debating it. [/B]
but fine, lets stop it, im only pointing the fact that vaders body movement is slow, not his striking, and im tired of kasim making up shit