Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

Dooku can defend against choke with a force shield, and Vader has never used it against a force user. Dooku can also spray lightning at Vader before Vader can do anything, as his hands are much quicker. So I'd say that the most likely scenario is that Dooku would pull off some force lightning before Vader can do jack, Vader would be busy defending against it with his lightsaber, and give Dooku time to spray some more lightning at Vader with his other hand, and separate the two strings of lightning to such a distance where the saber wouldn't be a valid defence against it. Dooku wins, case closed.

Originally posted by allfg
Dooku can defend against choke with a force shield,

Originally posted by allfg

and Vader has never used it against a force user.

Originally posted by allfg

Dooku can also spray lightning at Vader before Vader can do anything, as his hands are much quicker.

Originally posted by allfg

So I'd say that the most likely scenario is that Dooku would pull off some force lightning before Vader can do jack, Vader would be busy defending against it with his lightsaber,

Originally posted by allfg

and give Dooku time to spray some more lightning at Vader with his other hand, and separate the two strings of lightning to such a distance where the saber wouldn't be a valid defence against it. Dooku wins, case closed.

EDIT

i meant that vader was fast enough to stick his hands up before solo shot his bolts, sorry n00baris but you failed again

Originally posted by Count Makashi
No their theid now, and Vader isn't as good as Anakin in lightsaber combat, he has better Force povers then Anakin, but so does the Count.

The counts only advantage is his lightning

one thing Dickbaris
-By your kiddy logic, r2d2 pwns vader cuz he has a stun gun which shoot jolts of electricity.

This proves how stupid you are

Do you see Vader being a match for Yoda, lets say that instead of Dooku, Vader fought Yoda in AOTC, do you see him being almost his equal, no Yoda would win with some difficulty and therefore Dooku would win also.
And what did he shown in the movies(Vader) that he has better Force powers then Dooku.
Your first argument that he didn't show nowhere, you say he couldn't, but you cant prove that, just because he didn't shove it , doesn't mean he doesn't know it and he didn't shove it nowhere because he was never in such a fight, that he had to defend against Choke. I never seen Vader defend against Lightning either.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Do you see Vader being a match for Yoda, lets say that instead of Dooku, Vader fought Yoda in AOTC, do you see him being almost his equal, no Yoda would win with some difficulty and therefore Dooku would win also.

Originally posted by Count Makashi

And what did he shown in the movies(Vader) that he has better Force powers then Dooku.

Originally posted by Count Makashi

Your first argument that he didn't show nowhere, you say he couldn't, but you cant prove that, just because he didn't shove it , doesn't mean he doesn't know it and he didn't shove it nowhere because he was never in such a fight, that he had to defend against Choke. I never seen Vader defend against Lightning either.

I dont want to turn this into another big debate, but there are a few points I want to clear up...

Originally posted by Kadesh
[B]TESB, vader threw dozen of flag poles at luke, TESB he killed his officer by just staring into the TV screen, ROTS, he destroyed an entire medical room by just getting pissed, EU, he shook down a 20 story building, EU he force pushed a thug 50 metres back

The only notable achievement there would be how he force choked the officer. But even then, that officer was not a force user and is certainly no Dooku. So there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he will be able to do the same to a man of Tyranus' calibre.

Him throwing debris means shit. Dooku can throw debris, heck anyone in the SW Universe can throw debris. The Medical Room incident means shit. They were droids for god sake. Him shaking down the building means shit. He was angry and wasnt able to control himself - meaning that there is every chance he wont be able to do it again (Besides it was only a hallway if I recall - not the whole building). Him force pushing a thug is almost a laughable point. Every force user can force push. Dooku force pushed Kenobi while fending off Skywalker, two very strong force users. It might just be me, bt Dooku's push seems a heck of alot more impressive than Vaders.

You have no arguement firstly, Nothing indicates that dooku has force shield and has never demonstrated it, and im sorry to burst your bubble but vader can defend against lightning with either his lightsaber or a piece of debris, O yea i forgot that vader was able to use TK to pull lightning strai from the sky as that fighting SW game proved

Wait. Let me get this straight. Dooku has never shown us force shield, therefore he cant use it. But Vader has never been shown to block force lightning but still knows how? Double standards much?

Also the SW game means absolutely nothing. Vader cant use lightning. Period.

Originally posted by allfg
Dooku can defend against choke with a force shield, and Vader has never used it against a force user. Dooku can also spray lightning at Vader before Vader can do anything, as his hands are much quicker. So I'd say that the most likely scenario is that Dooku would pull off some force lightning before Vader can do jack, Vader would be busy defending against it with his lightsaber, and give Dooku time to spray some more lightning at Vader with his other hand, and separate the two strings of lightning to such a distance where the saber wouldn't be a valid defence against it. Dooku wins, case closed.

Considering how Anakin first fought Dooku. Considering how Anakin beat him so easily the second time. I think Vader can easily beat him.

See? The Amazing Krueger/Black Dalek can turned a dead thread into a heated/new one.

Tisk, tisk.

At least Rampant has read earlier in this thread, and looked as to why people think what they do.

I say it's a tough fight, but Vader wins.

Why?

*He has crushed the dark woman with a huge tree, a feat that is easily above anything we've seen from almost anybody. It doesn't sound that impressive, but, if you see the comic, you'll know what I mean. With that one showing alone it can be concluded that he'd rip through most force defences and thrash him with the force. He has also:
*Held Boba Fett in place with the force, his grip around him being compared to steel.
* Popped a severed (living) head while it was in a chest without any concentration.
* Thrown a choking officer dozens of feet into the air.
* Ripped apart wrosher trees with the force (the same type of trees that were unphased by heavy blaster fire).
* Choked one person, sent another one flying dozens of feet, and threw a sword with the force into a third, all at the same time with no gestures or apparent struggle.
* Choked an officer from a ridiculous distance (In ESB).
* Threw debris at Luke (and another Jedi Master in RODV) to overwhelm them.
* Choked a Jedi while unarmed.
* Held Master Choi, a very powerful Jedi Master, in the air with the force.
* Threw his lightsaber an assumed great distance and killed one person and mortally wounded another (lived due to immediate medical attention), while a Jedi that was closer to the targets was trying to use the force to stop him.
* When circled by predators, he reached out sending them all flying dozens of feet in every direction.
* Owned a group of common thugs with the force, one of whom got sent flying back 50+ feet into a stone wall which crumbled with the force of the blow.
* Learned from Sidious.
* Resisted Sidious' lightning, with no saber and after being beat down, long enough to pick him up and throw him down the reactor shaft.
* A lot more.

As far as lightsaber skills go:
* Carved through 20+ wookiees in seconds.
* Beat Obi Wan.
* Beat ESB Luke.
* Toyed with one of the most deadliest duelists in the galaxy as if he was a child (using kicks and showing a lot of agility) in Crimson Empire.
* Owned two Jedi Knights who had seen action in the clone wars and worked very well together.
* Beat down some padawans in one move...
* Uses elements from many different styles (even the "Most dangerous" Including Makashi and Djem So) and uses only one hand with immense physical strength.
* Has lightsaber resistant armor. (A powerful swing from Luke only sizzled his shoulder).
* A lot more...

He has a few specific advantages to his name:
* Semi lightsaber-resistant armor. The light swings of Makashi that are enough to take out a non- armored opponent (like we see in AOTC, what happens to Obi Wan) would not take out Vader so easily.
* Form V. Form V uses a lot of physical strength to overwhelm opponents, and is particularly good against Makashi. Vader is one of the physically strongest duelists we've seen.
* Vader is patient and thinks. Speaks for itself (Not saying Dooku isn't, but, it will help a lot).
* Greater dark side studies. He has spent more time with Sidious training, and has access to many of the dark holocrons that were previously stored within the Jedi Temple.
* Knowledge of opponent. One of the biggest factors in this fight that has been overlooked, is that Vader knows of Count Dooku, while Vader is a mystery to Dooku. He knows what he is capable of, how he acts while fighting, and what it takes to beat him.

Also, Vader is 80% of a powerful Sidious (One who has an extra 20+ years of fully dedicating himself to darkside research with unlimited supplies after Dooku was scared shitless of him).

I hate copying and pasting. Don't make me do it again.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I DON'T want to turn this into another big debate, but there are a few points I want to clear up...

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The only notable achievement there would be how he force choked the officer. But even then, that officer was not a force user and is certainly no Dooku. So there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he will be able to do the same to a man of Tyranus' calibre.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Him throwing debris means shit. Dooku can throw debris, heck anyone in the SW Universe can throw debris. The Medical Room incident means shit. They were droids for god sake. Him shaking down the building means shit. He was angry and wasnt able to control himself - meaning that there is every chance he wont be able to do it again (Besides it was only a hallway if I recall - not the whole building). Him force pushing a thug is almost a laughable point. Every force user can force push. Dooku force pushed Kenobi while fending off Skywalker, two very strong force users. It might just be me, bt Dooku's push seems a heck of alot more impressive than Vaders.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Wait. Let me get this straight. Dooku has never shown us force shield, therefore he cant use it. But Vader has never been shown to block force lightning but still knows how? Double standards much?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Also the SW game means absolutely nothing. Vader cant use lightning. Period.

Also, someone prove to me that Dooku's hands are faster than Vader's. That's absolutely ridiculous to assume that a 80 year old man can move his joints faster than someone a third his age who has cybernetic enhancements. Your arm moves from your shoulder. Last i checked, Anakin still had his shoulders, rather muscular ones at that, so you can save that shit, cause i ain't buying.

Rampant gets knocked, but he gets up again, never gonna keep him down.

He takes a Dooku drink.
He takes a Counting drink.
He takes an Evil drink.
He takes a Saru drink.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Right, because someone who is 80% of the greatest Sith Lord ever has no notable feats to his name.

I didnt say that. I was merely pointing out why the ones Kadesh stated were irrelevant.

Its not the fact that he choked an officer(s), its how far way the officer(s) were when said choke was applied, which is a pretty good feat. Since I cant ask you to prove that Vader cant choke Dooku without getting people's panties in a bunch and have them yelling, "Prove a negative?!", prove to me how Dooku can break the hold...not speculation, but proof. More to come, keep reading.

I agree. But the point is the officer probably has no more force potential than Jar Jar. I will take back what I say and declare it a notable feat - although it is hardly as uber as you make it out to be.

So him dueling while throwing debris means nothing? Concentrating on multiple facets of the fight means nothing? And that was against a force user, albeit a new one, but a force user nonetheless.

Wow, he stopped duelling and threw debris at a boy who has next to no training. Not impressive. Luke was posing no threat to him - Vader practically sotod to the side waving his lightsaber up and down. Im quite sure Dooku could do the same.

And causing a room to bend and break just from your raw emotion and connection thru the force means nothing? How so? He didn't physically do anything to the room, his anger did.

Anakin didnt intentionally destroy the room. It was an accident caused by his huge amount of raw power and emotion. Raw power will not win Vader the fight, control will. Lets face it, this feat has no control whatsoever. There is nothing to say he will be able to do it again.

When he pushed the thug, what were the circumstances? Was it far, through a wall, did it kill him? So on and so forth...I DON'T know cause i haven't read that yet. But i would say it was far from laughable. Some jedi prolly wouldn't think to do that in a situation, i.e. OB1 in ANH...he could have done that instead of cutting off dude's arm.

I dont know the circumstances either. But my point is the thug wouldnt have been a force user. Therefore would have had no way to block the push. Its really not that impressive.

Wait, let me get this straight. Vader has never shown choking a force user, therefore he cant do it. But Dooku has never shown force shield but still knows how? Double standards much?

Haha, I ddnt say that. I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies in Kadesh's post.

Games are C-canon as long as they contradict any higher canon source...the book says he cant conjure or repel lightning with his artificial limbs, if he summons it from the sky, its not touching him. I DON'T really care about this point, but it makes sense to me.

I have the game but I dont recall him summoning it from the sky. Although I dont know for sure - ill have to go and check.

Also, someone prove to me that Dooku's hands are faster than Vader's. That's absolutely ridiculous to assume that a 80 year old man can move his joints faster than someone a third his age who has cybernetic enhancements. Your arm moves from your shoulder. Last i checked, Anakin still had his shoulders, rather muscular ones at that, so you can save that shit, cause i ain't buying.

Anakin has organic stumps. These have to move heavy metal limbs encased in armour. Dooku however is described like this.

Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago-he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold

This is on comparison to someone who has had 4 limbs chopped off (one twice). Besides, you can clearly see from the movies who is faster.

Hint. Not Vader.

Originally posted by Tangible God
He takes a Dooku drink.
He takes a Counting drink.
He takes an Evil drink.
He takes a Saru drink.

😆

Originally posted by Rampant ox

The only notable achievement there would be how he force choked the officer. But even then, that officer was not a force user and is certainly no Dooku. So there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he will be able to do the same to a man of Tyranus' calibre.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Him throwing debris means shit. Dooku can throw debris, heck anyone in the SW Universe can throw debris. The Medical Room incident means shit. They were droids for god sake. Him shaking down the building means shit. He was angry and wasnt able to control himself - meaning that there is every chance he wont be able to do it again (Besides it was only a hallway if I recall - not the whole building). Him force pushing a thug is almost a laughable point. Every force user can force push. Dooku force pushed Kenobi while fending off Skywalker, two very strong force users. It might just be me, bt Dooku's push seems a heck of alot more impressive than Vaders.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Wait. Let me get this straight. Dooku has never shown us force shield, therefore he cant use it. But Vader has never been shown to block force lightning but still knows how? Double standards much?

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Also the SW game means absolutely nothing. Vader cant use lightning. Period.

Finally some people who know what they're talking about instead of the standard fanboy Dooku glorification. Hey too bad.. I guess Dooku wasn't a child of the force.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Nice attempt to lie here, sadly he himself never demonstrated this ability either in the movies or in the EU, Nowhere does it state that he even [B]may have this ability, I applaud your pathetic attempt to build up a lie[/B]

Conjuring up a force shield is one of the first and most basic powers taught to padawans at the jedi temple. Dooku was once a padawan, and the most prodigious one of his time. He knows how to conjure up a force shield. By your logic, Toll Skorr and Kadrien Say would have a chance against Dooku, seeing as they both know the force choke technique, yet he was still able to keep them in line. Funny that. There's also the fact that he can just use TK to negate the TK of a choke. In other words, you're wrong, and dumb.

Oops he did it during the purge jedi fight, he choked one of the jedis and slamed him to the wall while fending of 2 jedi knights,

Let me rephrase: and Vader has never used it against a powerful force user.

O yes and remember the shaking-down-building incident? vader used crush to such a degree it brought an entire building down in seconds, source? EAW And please dont attempt to lie and say "o i asked somebody who played the game but they said its a lie" when you yourself have no friends to even talk to

Seeing as you most likely got the information off of your best friend wiki, and I have a reliable source who says that you're full of shit, I think I'm not going to believe any of your crap. The fact that you haven't elaborated on the feat at all shows that you clearly don't know what you're talking about. How tall was the building? How much concentration did Vader need to apply?

Much quicker? Han solo fired his bolt and at the same time vader stuck his hand up, and a bolt hits its victims in a split second. And the highest form of canon proves this my friend, again you have no arguement. And vader can instantly pull of his force attack, crush not even needed, why? Because by using a simple force-push, dooku gets knocked of his feet and thus unable to use lightning, and this allows vader to use his sorroundings to crush dooku

Oh my days, you are such a dumbass. Your vaunted precognition is what enabled Vader to block Han's bolt, his fricking hand was already up before Han fired the trigger. That has no relation on speed.

Really? In every fight i see dooku get into, he always draws his lightsaber and then waits for his opponents to attack, It has never been his style to attack first,

What I meant was that in the likely scenario that they were both to pull off force attacks at once, Dooku would likely be quicker given his hand movements are quite a lot quicker than Vader's, as can be seen by the movies.

and even if he did use lightning first, vader would have sensed it with precognition and would knock off his concentration with a small force push before dooku even lifts a finger

Wow, by your logic, before Vader is able to push him, Dooku would have sensed it with precognition and be able to pull off an attack first. The point is, precognition is useless if you can't prevent what's going to happen, and it's entirely irrelevant in the scenario I was referring to, as no matter who senses what, Dooku would always be able to pull off an attack quicker due to the fact that he has quicker hand movements.

Wrong, forgeting about force crush and vaders TK? Even if dooku managed to throw lightning and vader being able to block it, you forgot that vader has the other hand to counter dookus next attack which is what you just said, force lightning with his other hand and did i not mention vader has fended of 2 jedi knights while choking another jedi with his other hand? Vader wins while you lose, case closed

Wow, I'd love to see Vader pulling off an attack with one hand while fending off lightning with the other. More likely he'd require both hands. And there's no way he'd be able to concentrate under those circumstances.

one thing Dickbaris
-By your kiddy logic, r2d2 pwns vader cuz he has a stun gun which shoot jolts of electricity.

This proves how stupid you are.

Right, because R2's stun gun is totally comparable to a full fledged sith lord's dark side lightning. 🙄

*He has crushed the dark woman with a huge tree, a feat that is easily above anything we've seen from almost anybody. It doesn't sound that impressive, but, if you see the comic, you'll know what I mean. With that one showing alone it can be concluded that he'd rip through most force defences and thrash him with the force.

WTF? All Vader did was cut across the tree with his lightsaber, and while it was falling, he applied an unknown amount of pressure with the force to accelerate its fall. You see the word 'unknown'? That means you can't quantify how much power it would take to do said feat. However, I'm sure cutting down trees is totally beneath Dooku. In fact, what was I thinking, Dooku can't honestly compare to the lumberjack that is Vader.

Originally posted by allfg
Conjuring up a force shield is one of the first and most basic powers taught to padawans at the jedi temple.

Originally posted by allfg

Dooku was once a padawan, and the most prodigious one of his time. He knows how to conjure up a force shield.

Originally posted by allfg

By your logic, Toll Skorr and Kadrien Say would have a chance against Dooku, seeing as they both know the force choke technique, yet he was still able to keep them in line. Funny that. There's also the fact that he can just use TK to negate the TK of a choke. In other words, you're wrong, and dumb.

Originally posted by allfg

Let me rephrase: and Vader has never used it against a [b]powerful force user. [/B]

Originally posted by allfg

Seeing as you most likely got the information off of your best friend wiki, and I have a reliable source who says that you're full of shit, I think I'm not going to believe any of your crap. The fact that you haven't elaborated on the feat at all shows that you clearly don't know what you're talking about. How tall was the building? How much concentration did Vader need to apply?

Originally posted by allfg

Oh my days, you are such a dumbass. Your vaunted precognition is what enabled Vader to block Han's bolt, his fricking hand was already up before Han fired the trigger. That has [b]no relation on speed.
[/B]

Originally posted by allfg

What I meant was that in the likely scenario that they were both to pull off force attacks at once, Dooku would likely be quicker given his hand movements are quite a lot quicker than Vader's, as can be seen by the movies.

Originally posted by allfg

Wow, by your logic, before Vader is able to push him, Dooku would have sensed it with precognition and be able to pull off an attack first. The point is, precognition is useless if you can't prevent what's going to happen,

Originally posted by allfg

and it's entirely irrelevant in the scenario I was referring to, as no matter who senses what, Dooku would always be able to pull off an attack quicker due to the fact that he has quicker hand movements.

Originally posted by allfg

Wow, I'd love to see Vader pulling off an attack with one hand while fending off lightning with the other. More likely he'd require both hands. And there's no way he'd be able to concentrate under those circumstances.

Originally posted by allfg

Right, because R2's stun gun is totally comparable to a full fledged sith lord's dark side lightning. 🙄

I dont want to argue with you Kadesh, becuase I dont want this thread to turn into another warzone. But there are several things I want to point out.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Let me rephrase this, He still did it on a force user while fending off 6 jedi masters

You seem to forget that these 6 masters bet him. Vader would have been a dead man if his Stormtroopers didnt show up. Also the 6 masters werent fighting him simultaneously. So when you put the feat into context it is pretty pathetic. Especially since these masters were very weak in comparison to a force user from the movies - a force user like Dooku.

Least it lets you know what your opponents next move is. And by doing so it does allow to to prevent whats going to happen my friend, theres a reason why jedi and sith must learn this ability
Im sorry but the movies already proved 2 things i said, Vaders hand being faster number 1) while number2 the movies and eu proves that dookus style is letting his opponent attack him, and he always draws his blade beforehand, your assumption of dooku using lightning before the duel has been utterly destroyed and reftuted

Wtf are you talking about? Vader is not faster. That is just blatant bullshit. He is a crippled old man stuck in a heavy suit of armour with heavy robotic limbs that have to be moved by organic stumps. We clearly see from the movies (the highest form of canon) that Dooku is faster. So dont try and pull that sh*t here.

Also what is up with all this "z0mg d00Ku drAw$ hi$ B1adE fIr%T!!!!11'. In AOTC he uses lightning twice before drawing his blade on the duo. He then throws several generators, shoots lightning and pulls down a roof on Yoda before he decided to get into a swordfight.

Your comparing a vder from 1977 to a CGI character 25 years later 😆

Rampant ox has made a good point that Dooku will not necessarily fight in the same manner as he did in ROTS.

He is an experienced man and can make his own judgements according to the situations he is put in. He can take advantage of weaknesses/wrong decisions of his opponents and he did so in AOTC.

OT Vader is not as fast as he was in ROTS period. Dooku is more agile because he is not crippled.

But I believe that this will be a very hard fight for Dooku because Vader did indeed proved to be the most successful apprentice of Sidious.

One main advantage that Dooku has is that he can perform Force Lightning, which is dangerous for OT Vader. It is possible to block Dooku's Lightning with a Light Saber but this is more situational based. If Vader gets distracted by Dooku in some manner, then Dooku can take advantage of this distraction and shoot Force Lightning at OT Vader to get the upper-hand.

Over-all this will be a good fight.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Your comparing a vder from 1977 to a CGI character 25 years later 😆