Originally posted by exanda kane
Your comparing a vder from 1977 to a CGI character 25 years later 😆
You have to look at it from an in-universe point of view. Vader is slow, Dooku is not. We cant say that Vader should be faster but the costume designer couldnt build armour light enough to lift. It doesnt make sense when put in the context of the movie.
Ok fine you dont want to argue? sure just let me adress these few issues i argued cuz nebaris is a jackass attempting to downplay vader
Originally posted by Rampant oxYou seem to forget vader is still inexperienced and still cocky as he was in ROTS, notice that takes place 3 weeks after the movie? He didnt think, he didnt plan and that was why he nearly got his ass pwned, Still he froze a very powerful jedi in the air to be shot. one that would have pwned him in saber combatYou seem to forget that these 6 masters bet him. Vader would have been a dead man if his Stormtroopers didnt show up. Also the 6 masters werent fighting him simultaneously. So when you put the feat into context it is pretty pathetic. Especially since these masters were very weak in comparison to a force user from the movies - a force user like Dooku.
Originally posted by Rampant oxFirst, he struck anakin with lightning out of self defence, secondly he was taunting obi wan and yoda to test his powers, he wanted to indimidate all of them.
Also what is up with all this "z0mg d00Ku drAw$ hi$ B1adE fIr%T!!!!11'. In AOTC he uses lightning twice before drawing his blade on the duo. He then throws several generators, shoots lightning and pulls down a roof on Yoda before he decided to get into a swordfight.
Originally posted by kamikzHe wouldnt need to, he wouldnt know vader is anakin skywalker, and vader is an unknown to him so why would dooku even need to indimidate him because vader can do the very same
Just about the lightning part...Is it impossible that he would want to intimidate Vader, or show his powers?
O wait, then i guess vader is able to block lightning because your favourite book POD states that force shields can block all forms of force attacks and that vader demonstrated this ability in the empire comics.
Haven't you been owned like a gazillion different times with this argument? Vader possesses artificial limbs, and therefor can't use force to dissipate (which is a form of force shield) lightning, it would short circuit his armour.
Firstly if force shield was taught so early and so easy to master, why did dooku be able to push obi1 when a force shield can be thrown up instantly.
1. That's because Dooku forced Obi-Wan into a position where Vader couldn't conjure one up, as he was focusing his attention on their saber duel, and Dooku applied the force manoeuvre midway through a parry.
2. That doesn't matter anyway, as the strength of the force shield is based on its user's strength in the force, and specifically their force defence. Force shields can be broken through, if your opponent is able to overcome your force defence. My point was, Dooku has a valid defence against a force choke, and anything that Vader has to offer. Vader can't defend against an application of lightning that Dooku can full well produce.
See the above, you still fail to prove dooku will even use this technique or knew it.
I think it's you who needs to refer to the above. Dooku knows the force shield technique, get over it.
Did i ever point out that people would > dooku because they knew the force choke technique?
Hell yes you did. Isn't your argument that Dooku possesses no defence against force choke, and that therefor Vader can defeat Dooku because he knows force choke? I'll answer for you: yes, that was your argument, and now you're contradicting yourself like a dumbass.
Dickbaris theres a reason why you have no friends and no family, because you are an idiot and a big one. Did you seem to forget that vader was able to choke an officer a far distance apart,
I love how people blow this feat completely out of proportion. Now please prove that distance is even a factor in this. Quantify the power and mastery it takes to perform such a feat. Considering that Vader both knew the location of the officer, and could visually see him, distance would in no way be a factor. This feat alone isn't beyond any darksider that can use force choke, so again, your argument fails.
i dont see how dooku will even be able to use TK to counter. In other words, you're stupid and your a dumbass
You don't understand how TK can be used as a counter to TK? You're dumb. BTW, these first grade level insults really hurt man, keep it up.
Let me rephrase this, He still did it on a force user while fending off 6 jedi masters
And those 6 jedi masters sucked, and made no attempt in stopping Vader. When Vader can force own powerful force users like Quinlan Vos, get back to me.
Im sorry but my good friend wiki and wookie has not mentioned this, i saw it with my own eyes while playing EAW and FOC. You dont have to believe me simply for the fact that you are in major denial.
Well let's see, there's the fact that I have a reliable source saying that you're full of shit, and there's the fact that wiki is pretty much the only evidence you ever use in these debates. In other words, without concrete proof, I have no reason to believe you, and I won't. Not that changes much, but I just don't like people lying.
And i havnt elaborated? Remember anakin being angry and shaking down a building with just his anger, and vader destroying an entire medical room by getting pissed?
You do realise that I was saying that you haven't elaborated on the feat in question, right? Bringing up irrelevant bs and changing the subject doesn't change that.
Sorry n00b but this time vader used it with technique to shake down the entire building killing everything within the compound
Provide proof that what you're saying is true, and elaborate.
"Oh my days" seems to prove you blatently copy Acstyles which proves you have absolutely no faith in your arguements.
Oh my fricking days, you are such a moron, go back and read through mine and Ac's argument, and you'll see that you're wrong.
Yes and remember vaders hand being stuck up? It was stuck up a split second before han fired, Speedy hands? i think so.
I can only assume that there's something wrong with your brain, or that you need to rewatch the scene, because Vader displayed absolutely nothing noteworthy in terms of speed in that scene. Dooku, on the other hand, has proven that his hands are much quicker, and that he would therefor be able to pull off an attack first, simply because he is able to move his saber much faster than Vader is able to move his.
O WAIT! you said precognition right? That would enable vader to quickly pull a debris to shield from dookus lightning right? OOPS!
You are such a fricking dumbass, go back and read through my argument. In fact, because I'm a nice guy, I'll copy and paste the relevant reply: Wow, by your logic, before Vader is able to push him, Dooku would have sensed it with precognition and be able to pull off an attack first. The point is, precognition is useless if you can't prevent what's going to happen, and it's entirely irrelevant in the scenario I was referring to, as no matter who senses what, Dooku would always be able to pull off an attack quicker due to the fact that he has quicker hand movements.
Dooku draws his blade then waits for his opponents to attack, attacking first is not his stye
1. I'm not arguing what would likely happen if they just randomly fought, I'm arguing what they actually can do, and Dooku has a guaranteed victory which he could pull off if he chose to.
2. Not that it matters, but you're still wrong. With all 3 opponents he faces in AotC, he starts off with some force lightning, and as Rampant pointed out, he even went so far as to try and force a force battle on Yoda. You're basing everything off of one duel from RotS.
Actually i compared the two scenes, Dookus lightning at anakin in AOTC and vaders raised hand in TESB, fact his vader proved that his hand was faster.
Your argument would only be valid if Dooku was attempting to pull off lightning as quickly as possible. The fact is, Dooku was in no rush, he had plenty of time to blast Anakin before he reached him.
Relevant? Partly, The fact is that dookus style is to wait for his opponent to attack
Already dealt with.
Least it lets you know what your opponents next move is. And by doing so it does allow to to prevent whats going to happen my friend, theres a reason why jedi and sith must learn this ability
All precognition does is show you what is possibly going to happen, and it's up to your personal skill and power to prevent it. The point is, both Dooku and Vader possess precognition, so it's entirely irrelevant, and all that matters is who has the superior skill. In this context, Dooku does; he can pull off a force attack before Vader can, simply because he's faster.
Im sorry but the movies already proved 2 things i said, Vaders hand being faster number 1) while number2 the movies and eu proves that dookus style is letting his opponent attack him, and he always draws his blade beforehand, your assumption of dooku using lightning before the duel has been utterly destroyed and reftuted
Already dealt with.
Your wish is my command, Vader suspended and choked a jedi master in the air while dueling 3 other jedi masters, try again
Again, those jedi masters just stood still and did nothing. They also happened to suck. The intensity of lightning would be too much for Vader too handle with one hand, let alone allow him the concentration to pull off a force attack while defending against it.
I was merely pointing out to you your logic n00baris
And you failed. R2s Stun Gun isn't as quick as force lightning, isn't as powerful, and can't be applied in the regard I was speaking.
Point is, by GL's own admission, and clearly shown by the movies, Vader's arm and hand movements are much slower than someone like Dooku. Ergo, if both attempted to pull off a force attack at the same time, Dooku would always won, and execute his first. Dooku can use two simultaneous strands of lightning on Vader, and separate them to the point where Vader's only defence - his lightsaber, is useless. In other words, Dooku has the ability to force own Vader, Vader doesn't have the ability to defend against it, and Vader doesn't have the ability to attack Dooku before Dooku can attack him. Therefor, Vader loses. Get over it.
Not that I care anything about this argument, you make it seem like Vader can't just block the lighting with his saber in one hand and unleash a force attack with the other. Vader has more then enough physical and artificial strength to push back Dooku's lightning with his saber. Sidious shot off from both his hands too and yet Mace was able to block it with his saber. So now unless your gonna try and prove Dooku's FL > Sidious, thats hardly a point to be touting as something Vader can't defend from.
It would be extremely hard for Vader to block his lightning with just one hand on his lightsaber, let alone be able to maintain the concentration to pull one off with the other hand while defending against it. There's also the fact that Dooku can simply just send two simultaneous blasts at Vader at once, aim one at his head and the other at his chest, and Vader would be fecked; his only defence against lightning, his lightsaber isn't wide enough to defend both spots at once.
Okay, so Vader uselessly uses two hands to block the lightning, and blasts Dooku back with the force, physically shattering him. Since when does Vader need hand gestures? He is above that, and it's been shown. Also, I assumed that you used the force to channel the lightning to the blade (an apparently easy feat), because, otherwise some of it would just go around, right?
Originally posted by kamikz
Why would it be extremely hard for Vader to defend against Dooku's lightning with one hand? Obi-Wan did it, by AOTC...
Dooku wasn't going full out one bit, that was just a demonstration of his superior darkside techniques. In the EU, he's constantly able to overpower strong force users like Quinlan Vos and Assaj Ventress with force lightning, and has shown some pretty tremendous mastery of it. He was also stated to be a master of the power as well.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay, so Vader uselessly uses two hands to block the lightning, and blasts Dooku back with the force, physically shattering him. Since when does Vader need hand gestures? He is above that, and it's been shown.
However to overpower someone like Dooku, who's arguably stronger in the force than Vader is anyway, he would need to focus the attack.
Also, I assumed that you used the force to channel the lightning to the blade (an apparently easy feat), because, otherwise some of it would just go around, right?
If that were the case, then why not just use the force to push the lightning away? No, there's no proof for that.
Originally posted by allfg
Dooku wasn't going full out one bit, that was just a demonstration of his superior darkside techniques. In the EU, he's constantly able to overpower strong force users like Quinlan Vos and Assaj Ventress with force lightning, and has shown some pretty tremendous mastery of it. He was also stated to be a master of the power as well.
Guess he wasn't going "full out one bit" on Yoda either, seeing as how it was the exact same blast, but longer....
Originally posted by allfg
However to overpower someone like Dooku, who's arguably stronger in the force than Vader is anyway, he would need to focus the attack.
"Arguably stronger"? Isn't that what we have been arguing? You'll need to site a few examples if you expect me to just go with it. Also, when has Vader needed to "focus" before? He can just lash out with the force with no hand movements. If you would like examples, I have a few.
If that were the case, then why not just use the force to push the lightning away? No, there's no proof for that.
You're talking to me about no proof?
Okay then, so lightning is just attracted to a lightsaber anyway, so two different beams wouldn't matter, seeing as they go straight for the blade with no intervention.
Originally posted by allfg
Dooku wasn't going full out one bit, that was just a demonstration of his superior darkside techniques. In the EU, he's constantly able to overpower strong force users like Quinlan Vos and Assaj Ventress with force lightning, and has shown some pretty tremendous mastery of it. He was also stated to be a master of the power as well.
Well he hasn't done it in the movies, which outweighs the EU (hey, if we cant use Vader's EU feats at will, then you all cant use Dooku's) and you cant prove how strong his lightning was each time he used it. The only time it's EVER seemed "different", is when Sidious does it, more specifically to Mace. And please provide the source saying he (Dooku) was a master of Sith lightning.
If Vader is 80% of Sidious, how is Dooku arguably stronger? Anakin, i don't think was even 80% of him yet and tooled Dooku. Not in the force per se, but Dooku ended up dead nonetheless and his force mastery didn't save him there.
Also, if lightsaber blades and lightning (electricity) are intangible, meaning they could have no weight or "kinetic damage", how would he not be able to block it with one hand? If the blade is weightless, then a weightless form of energy couldn't "push" it back. Also, last i checked, a lightsaber's length was enough to cover the chest and head while holding it vertically. So how could he not block it that way?
Originally posted by allfgOne question, prove that dooku even knew the force shield technique, no where in any sources, no where in the movies, no where in any novels does it indicate dooku even knows the force shield technique. Im sorry nebaris but you are a lieng dumbass
2. That doesn't matter anyway, as the strength of the force shield is based on its user's strength in the force, and specifically their force defence. Force shields can be broken through, if your opponent is able to overcome your force defence. My point was, Dooku has a valid defence against a force choke, and anything that Vader has to offer. Vader can't defend against an application of lightning that Dooku can full well produce.
Originally posted by allfgNo, its you who needs to get over the fact that you were unable to prove that dooku even knew the force shield technique, If he does know it, name me the source
I think it's you who needs to refer to the above. Dooku knows the force shield technique, get over it.
Originally posted by allfgDumbass, can you defend against a choke which is done a f-ucking long distance away? i was assuming that since dooku does not have the force shield technique, He would counter it with a force push to knock vader off balance to get out of a choke position and i was simply saying earlier that vader can do it a far distance away, THAT was when i assumed vader may kill dooku, God your such a dumbass
Hell yes you did. Isn't your argument that Dooku possesses no defence against force choke, and that therefor Vader can defeat Dooku because he knows force choke?
Originally posted by allfgIll answer for you, No that was not my arguement
I'll answer for you: yes, that was your argument, and now you're contradicting yourself like a dumbass.
Originally posted by allfgO? Did you also seem to forget that Vader can sense his opponents on where they are? How else did you think freedon nadd could find where vodo is in the galaxy so that he could attack him lightyears away?
I love how people blow this feat completely out of proportion. Now please prove that distance is even a factor in this. Quantify the power and mastery it takes to perform such a feat. Considering that Vader both knew the location of the officer, and could visually see him, distance would in no way be a factor. This feat alone isn't beyond any darksider that can use force choke, so again, your argument fails.
Originally posted by allfgSee my above posts bastar-d, that was why i said dooku can counter vaders grip you dumb b!tch.
You don't understand how TK can be used as a counter to TK? You're dumb. BTW, these first grade level insults really hurt man, keep it up.
Originally posted by allfgMade no attempt to stop vader? they were hacking at him here and there and they knew they had to kill him, God by your logic anybody killed by vader means they suckes, i tell you what, 3 of them survived the attack on the jedi temple and the battle of geonosis, you were so fond of pointing out that Jedis who survived wars are almighty, Sorry but you fail again
And those 6 jedi masters sucked, and made no attempt in stopping Vader. When Vader can force own powerful force users like Quinlan Vos, get back to me.
Originally posted by allfgSay that again? im sorry you fatherless bastard(i know you are born without a father) But i never got that from wikipedia, My sources are Empire-At-War which pretty much does the work of elaborating vaders power. You are so deep in denial that you cannot even accept the fact that i did not get this from wiki
Well let's see, there's the fact that I have a reliable source saying that you're full of shit, and there's the fact that wiki is pretty much the only evidence you ever use in these debates. In other words, without concrete proof, I have no reason to believe you, and I won't. Not that changes much, but I just don't like people lying.
Originally posted by allfgNever seen a force crush? The entire force energies around the outline of your body push in towards the centre crushing you to a pulp, Vader did this to tanks and that building in EAW and he crushed one of his officers in tie-fighter cutscene. Now by doing so on dooku, Sadly dooku would get locked by this feat, he cant move his arms, he cant move his legs, and even if he did knew the shield technique, he wouldnt be able to put it up. You fail again
You do realise that I was saying that you haven't elaborated on the feat in question, right? Bringing up irrelevant bs and changing the subject doesn't change that.
Originally posted by allfgSee the above
Provide proof that what you're saying is true, and elaborate.
Originally posted by allfgI already did, he said "Oh my days". You copied him, accept it fool
Oh my [b]fricking days, you are such a moron, go back and read through mine and Ac's argument, and you'll see that you're wrong.
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Originally posted by allfgNo but sticking his hand a split second before han fired his shot proves that his hands are quick. There is something wrong with your "brain" and that is it is filled with denial and remorse that your family died in 9-11
I can only assume that there's something wrong with your brain, or that you need to rewatch the scene, because Vader displayed absolutely nothing noteworthy in terms of speed in that scene.
Originally posted by allfgMoving your saber faster does it mean you are going to > your opponent? GG is hell alot faster than obi wan yet he still lost, tsui choi is extremely fast and vader parried all his attacks
Dooku, on the other hand, has proven that his hands are much quicker, and that he would therefor be able to pull off an attack first, simply because he is able to move his saber much faster than Vader is able to move his.
Originally posted by allfg
You are such a fricking dumbass, go back and read through my argument. In fact, because I'm a nice guy, I'll copy and paste the relevant reply: Wow, by your logic, before Vader is able to push him, Dooku would have sensed it with precognition and be able to pull off an attack first. The point is, precognition is useless if you can't prevent what's going to happen, and it's entirely irrelevant in the scenario I was referring to, as no matter who senses what, Dooku would always be able to pull off an attack quicker due to the fact that he has quicker hand movements.
"The point is, precognition is useless if you can't prevent what's going to happen" And there is a reason why jedis learn precognition, It doesnt matter if dookus hands are quicker to strike with lightning, vaders saber would already be up and so would dookus saber drawn.
Originally posted by allfgAnd? vader can just pull of force crush or start sending an endless barrage of debris at dooku for a garenteed victory
1. I'm not arguing what would likely happen if they just randomly fought, I'm arguing what they actually can do, and Dooku has a guaranteed victory which he could pull off if he chose to.
Originally posted by allfg1) He attacked anakin with lightning out of self defence, because had he drawn his lightsaber, obi wan and anakin would be on 2v1, and then yoda would have stepped in and for sure dooku would be dead.
2. Not that it matters, but you're still wrong. With all 3 opponents he faces in AotC, he starts off with some force lightning, and as Rampant pointed out, he even went so far as to try and force a force battle on Yoda. You're basing everything off of one duel from RotS.
Originally posted by allfgSee the above
Your argument would only be valid if Dooku was attempting to pull off lightning as quickly as possible. The fact is, Dooku was in no rush, he had plenty of time to blast Anakin before he reached him.
Originally posted by allfgThe point is, vaders skill and mastery of the dark side > dookus, he had 7 more years of experience, he learnt under the most powerful sith lord longer, he learnt more techniques. And what matter would it be if dooku pulls of an attack first, vader never enters a fight without first pulling his lightsaber outAll precognition does is show you what is possibly going to happen, and it's up to your personal skill and power to prevent it. The point is, both Dooku and Vader possess precognition, so it's entirely irrelevant, and all that matters is who has the superior skill. In this context, Dooku does; he can pull off a force attack before Vader can, simply because he's faster.
Originally posted by allfgSo are you saying that they just let him kill them? Sorry but they all attacked him at once, and vader took the cortosis blade to deactivate their sabers before getting his back slashed and arm lobbed of,Again, those jedi masters just stood still and did nothing. They also happened to suck. The intensity of lightning would be too much for Vader too handle with one hand, let alone allow him the concentration to pull off a force attack while defending against it.
Again this is dookus lightning whom was blocked with kenobis saber effortlessly. Unless you want to prove dookus lightning is as powerful as sidious which you can never prove, Vader will be able to block it
Originally posted by allfgUh what? Dooku never does 2 handed lightning on anybody in the movies or the EU, By GL own admission, dooku does it with just one hand, And mace windu was able to block sidious lighting even though with alot of effort. Even if dooku managed to pull off that attack, his lightning isnt so intense and thus vader will still be able to block it
Point is, by GL's own admission, and clearly shown by the movies, Vader's arm and hand movements are much slower than someone like Dooku. Ergo, if both attempted to pull off a force attack at the same time, Dooku would always won, and execute his first. Dooku can use two simultaneous strands of lightning on Vader,
Originally posted by allfgsee the above
and separate them to the point where Vader's only defence - his lightsaber, is useless. In other words, Dooku has the ability to force own Vader, Vader doesn't have the ability to defend against it, and Vader doesn't have the ability to attack Dooku before Dooku can attack him. Therefor, Vader loses. Get over it.