even if it is, one year in heaven is equal to 1000 years on earth as judeo-christian scriptures often say. chalk that up to 6000 and you get six million, which happens be about as long as human beings have been around...roughly, since the oldest human fossil (a footstep found in Africa) is about 5 million years old.
thus the world--as we know it--is 6 million years old. as peejayd said, it doesn't sound like its negating scientific facts.
Originally posted by Sado22
even if it is, one year in heaven is equal to 1000 years on earth as judeo-christian scriptures often say. chalk that up to 6000 and you get six million, which happens be about as long as human beings have been around...roughly, since the oldest human fossil (a footstep found in Africa) is about 5 million years old.
thus the world--as we know it--is 6 million years old. as peejayd said, it doesn't sound like its negating scientific facts.
Humans did not appear out of nowhere 6 million years ago. We evolved from a common ancestor with all other primates. The tree of life goes back in time some 3.5 billion years.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2000/04/03/dinosaurs-on-noahs-ark
What I think:
1) Arabic scholars comment on the usage of the word "ayam" in the Quran when talking about the creation of the universe. while youm is the word translated as "day" in Arabic, "ayam" is best translated as NOT "day" but a long period of undisclosed time. now remember that Bible is actually a translation from Hebrew and we already know of the other cases of translation blunders in the bible....my favorite one being Moses described as "horn headed" because in the ancient Hebrew, the word for horn headed was spelt in the same way as the word for enlightened (because in Hebrew and even classic Arabic people didn't wrte the zabr, zair and all the other modern punctuations)--an error that had Moses being depicted as a horned person well into the reneissance. from all references I'v done it seems VERY likely that the Hebrew version of creation were also actually meant to be "long span of time" as opposed to "day".
2) now once, this whole issue of "days" actually being "long span of time" it automatically leaves a huge window open regarding one of the favorite "fool-proof" argument that atheists and agnostics have against christians (and muslims and jews by extension). since its vague, what was once one of the strongest argument of science agianst religion all of a sudden seems moot. not wrong, just too many variables involved to prove or disprove.
3) all three Judeo-Christian religions have mentions of how the time span of the heavenly realm is in fact, VERY different from that of the earthly realm. according to one hadith/rawayat the prophet said that one year of the heavenly realm is equivalent to 10,000 on one occassion and 500,000 in another. the bible makes a claim that the earth is 6000 years old (a claim the Quran doesn't make mind you) and if we think about it, 6000x10000 = 60million on the first occassion and 6000x500,000=3000,000,000 in the other. now of course, the thing to notice is that the prophet was giving a ROUGH idea that its way too much, similar to how he said "get educated even if you have to go to china to do it" because at the tme going to china was like going to the moon today. by the same tokken, the heavenly year 10,000 or 500,000 years old is not giving exact time as much as its saying "way too long"...hence, the usage of "ayam" again. stiil, if we actually use the 500,000 years loosely (ths because i think the prophet said this at a later time as opposed to the 10,000 year comment) the world's age comes up to 3 billion.......and modern consensus of the world's age is 4.5 billion years old (and that too based on the fact that the oldest debris of this solar system is that old). and all of a sudden, it doesnt' sound too strange does it?
4) the first sign of humanbeings is a footstop roughtly 5-7 million years old in what's currently Africa. so Noah's flood happening 4500 years ago doesn't actually teeter on insanity as atheists like to pretend it does...not when you consider the judeo-christian idea of heavenly years. since the "biblical" idea of heavenly years is about 1000 last i remember (peejayd, correct me if i'm wrong), 4500x1000=4.5 million which again isn't impossible...the only "friction" it creates with our views is pertaining to the speicy of humanbeings that makes them. Homosapiens i.e modern man are believed to have originated somewhere between 300,000-to-450,000 years ago. but its interesting to notice that even as early as the paleolithic age there is strong evidence of religion (idols, burial rites, sacred chambers in caves etc). i'm not saying entertain such thoughts but ultimately we have to face the facts and currently facts point towards this.
~Sado
P.S. i was wrong about the footstep being homosapien. it wasn't. homosapiens originated around 300000-450000 years ago. my bad.
Originally posted by Sado22
dude, i know that. i commenting that bible could easily be talking about the world ONCE humans came into the picture. and when you think about it, the world before the origin of mankind was MUCH different. hence, "the world as we know it" bit.
However, the controversy is not with liberal interpretations of the bible. You can take the bible as complete metaphor and say anything. The controversy is with literal interpretation or with Calvinistic interpretations.
Originally posted by peejayd
* facts like what? please give example/s...* of course, there are contradictions in the Bible... words of Satan obviously contradicts the words of God in the Bible... but if it's the word of God, nope... there's no contradictions... 🙂
facts like the age of methuselah. the great flood, noah taking a pair of every animal on a boat he built itself. on and on
and how will you know which words are the devil's and which words are god's. isnt it just a copout to ensure that anything discovered to be wrong will be said to be the words of the devil. moreover, the devil is a part of the biblical mythology{as christians beleive him}, to use him as a rationalisation against inconcistancies and falsehoods in the bible is using material from the vry source thats under scrutiny to prove its validity, making it a classic example of circular reasoning.
Originally posted by Sado22
😐
i repeat:
the world as WE KNOW IT is as old as we individually are, the world as the human RACE knows it is older than the human race. billions upon biollions of years older even than the galaxy cluster we are a part of. no way to justify it.
btw, since when r u a muslim? also, the hadith about going to china is false even among so called muslim scholars.
the world as WE KNOW IT is as old as we individually are, the world as the human RACE knows it is older than the human race. billions upon biollions of years older even than the galaxy cluster we are a part of. no way to justify it.
btw, since when r u a muslim?
also, the hadith about going to china is false even among so called muslim scholars.
~Sado
Originally posted by Sado22
well its interesting:
muhammed commented once, that the heavenly realm is like 500,000 years=1 heavenly year.
the bible comments that the world is 6000 years old (a claim the quran doesn't make). i'm not trying to say this is proof of god, just pointing out that its not as ridiculous as people make it with the context in mind.since 14 november, 1983 😄
what do you mean by false? uncredited?
well, I have 3 books on canonical hadith sitting at home and this one is mentioned in all three of them. the hadith about going to china is used as a rough analogy. arabic tradtion was always very keen on allusions and analogies so you'd get sentences like 27 years or 40 years to refer not to literally that amount of time but a long span of time. the same happens with 500,000 years. I'm not saying he literally meant this amount of time but its a rough analogy, giving the impression of a very long time. but even if taken literally, it doesn't negate science like everyone loves to pretend it does. 3billion years roughly on one side and a rought estimate of 4.5billion years by scientists who are basing it off on the oldest trace of the solar system that was discovered.~Sado
which books? bukhari? muslim? mishkwat? from what i know its not a sahih hadith or even a contested one. zakir naik commente on it once. lol, no that there are any SAHIH hadith to begin with, theyr all pretty much made up, and even if sum were spoken my muhammad, theyr the words of a sadistic general and supposed madman.
btw, how does islam view people who read and like preacher?
and yes, it is ridiculous, looking at it fromt he context of relegious history and dogma, theres no reason to beleive they knew what the hell they were talking about.
bahnchud! 😠
wow, been a while since i could swear in urdu/hindi! 😂
which books? bukhari? muslim? mishkwat? from what i know its not a sahih hadith or even a contested one. zakir naik commente on it once. lol, no that there are any SAHIH hadith to begin with, theyr all pretty much made up, and even if sum were spoken my muhammad, theyr the words of a sadistic general and supposed madman.
as for sadistic general and madman, well, one is free to beleve what he or she wants. this aint the first time i hearing trash talk about the prophet and it won't be the last. all i know is, that in the light of context, things make more sense....which is the point of relgion in my eyes. not scientific facts. fath and intellect have no correllation.
btw, how does islam view people who read and like preacher?
and yes, it is ridiculous, looking at it fromt he context of relegious history and dogma, theres no reason to beleive they knew what the hell they were talking about.
~Sado
Originally posted by Sado22
bahnchud! 😠
wow, been a while since i could swear in urdu/hindi! 😂i don't know whch one, actually. you're right about some hadiths being controversial and all, but there are some that are considered authentic because they are related by different people. IIRC, this particular one was related by various people, but i'm not sure. still, the point of the hadith applies, canonity not mattering: get educated, no matter how far you have to travel to do so.
as for sadistic general and madman, well, one is free to beleve what he or she wants. this aint the first time i hearing trash talk about the prophet and it won't be the last. all i know is, that in the light of context, things make more sense....which is the point of relgion in my eyes. not scientific facts. fath and intellect have no correllation.
you're not clear here, mate.
i disagree. there's reason enough to believe it since so many of it has proven to be correct.
~Sado
thats not a nice things to say.
and no, please check my thread on positive relegious claims, u have been duped by the dawah people.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Humans did not appear out of nowhere 6 million years ago. We evolved from a common ancestor with all other primates.
* do you have an proof that humans really evolved from a common ancestor with all other primates? this is just a discussion of beliefs so what i accept as my belief is applicable to you... hence my belief in the Bible parallels your belief in the theory of evolution...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The tree of life goes back in time some 3.5 billion years.
* and what is that "tree of life"? 🙄
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Try 3.5 billion year. There is a big difference between 6 million years and 3.5 billion years.
* the 6 million years came from an interpretation just like the 3.5 billion years came from scientific inferences and assumptions...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, the controversy is not with liberal interpretations of the bible. You can take the bible as complete metaphor and say anything. The controversy is with literal interpretation or with Calvinistic interpretations.
* liberal interpretations include literal interpretations, that's the reason why it's liberal... but the Bible does not speak only literal things:
"For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Hebrews 4:12
* the word of God might be literal and/or spiritual... i don't have problems with Calvanistic interpretations regarding the salvation of the elect by God's grace alone... and i don't understand why it should be controversial to you... i mean, if you don't believe in the Bible, why bother? 🙄
Originally posted by leonheartmm
facts like the age of methuselah.
* in the time of Methuselah, it was possible because the human body then is not yet exposed to harmful effects in man-made food, drinks and environment... now if you consider other verses, let me give you this:
"The days of our lives are seventy years; And if by reason of strength they are eighty years, Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow; For it is soon cut off, and we fly away."
Psalms 90:10
* now tell me, is this true in our time or not? 😉
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the great flood, noah taking a pair of every animal on a boat he built itself. on and on
* the Bible never states Noah built the ark by himself...
Originally posted by leonheartmm
and how will you know which words are the devil's and which words are god's.
* read the context...
Originally posted by leonheartmm
isnt it just a copout to ensure that anything discovered to be wrong will be said to be the words of the devil.
* well, isn't it?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
moreover, the devil is a part of the biblical mythology{as christians beleive him}, to use him as a rationalisation against inconcistancies and falsehoods in the bible is using material from the vry source thats under scrutiny to prove its validity, making it a classic example of circular reasoning.
* i missed it, bro... the Bible is also a history book and it narrates what happened in the past... and with it includes several words from God and from the devil... albeit, there are really two opposing forces that contradict with each other... that is the plain truth, you should know it better... have you read a good book lately? where the antagonist directly contradicts the protagonist? you tell me...
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the world as WE KNOW IT is as old as we individually are, the world as the human RACE knows it is older than the human race. billions upon biollions of years older even than the galaxy cluster we are a part of. no way to justify it.
* if there's no way to justify it... this is just a matter of semantics... your belief and the other... no point of argument...