Jesus Christ

The passages you quoted do not prove that it was not the Father whom the people of the Old spoke to. I only knew One God... as Jesus said, He is our Father.

So, it was God [our Father].

Great job refuting what was said. So Jesus saying that you have neither heard his voice or seen his form is not enough? Do you pick and choose what you want to listen to from Jesus? 🙄

So who was it that they saw and spoke to in the old testament. The bible seems to make it very clear that you can not see God. But that there is one in his image who you can see. Wonder who that was.....

Originally posted by clickclick
Great job refuting what was said. So Jesus saying that you have neither heard his voice or seen his form is not enough? Do you pick and choose what you want to listen to from Jesus? 🙄

So who was it that they saw and spoke to in the old testament. The bible seems to make it very clear that you can not see God. But that there is one in his image who you can see. Wonder who that was.....

Yes. God is Spirit and cannot be seen in His form. Yet, the people of the Old have seen Him. Why so? 🙄

Accepting that it was not the Father, then who? The Son? How can they see the Son? The Son in the flesh? 😕

Again: "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

So after Jesus died, He was highly exalted and given a name above every name.. and worthy to be called Lord?

Satan, again, is indeed the ruler of the world. Does it mean that Jesus has no authority on the world?

Yes. I guess you know the reason why Jesus died on the cross. I hope so.

Again, Jesus Christ, who, being in the form of God... also made lower than angels... chose to become a servant.

Being "in the form of God" as what I have said is that Jesus has found with qualities and attributes similar to God... but this doesn't mean that Jesus is now God. The Bible does not mean literally that Jesus was found "in the form of God"... again, not literally... because literally God is a Spirit and without form... That's why Jesus, who being "in the form of God" ... chose to become a servant [to God's will]... Meaning, a man [lower than angel], who is also a Lord [yet supreme], chose to become a likeness of a servant... He took the form of a man [because part of God's will is that Christ must die to save His people] to the point of His death.

Yes Satan was the ruler of the world, that is why he could offer Jesus the world. If Jesus had authority over all things, that wouldnt be the case.

Well, what does therefore mean? Lets see when he was exalted and when he sat on the right hand of God.

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Acts 2:33-36 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

1 Cor 15: 24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There are more, ive posted more but this should be sufficient. Now you are claiming that he was exalted before and given authority over all before his death. Yet, the bible says that he was exalted to the right hand. And it tells us when that happend. So are you claiming that he was exalted twice? The first one didnt really count? Also, it is clear in this passage that all of his enemies were not under his feet. The last one to be destroyed was death. Now when was death Conquered? Before or after Jesus died? When did Jesus get authority over all things?

As to being made a little lower than the angels. Your whole contention is faulty. You are contending that God made Jesus below the angels yet you are saying that he was given all the authority. Umm, ive already disproved that one. Being made a little below the angels, Jesus did not then have all the powers of God (as you so indicated). You cant be in the form of God and a little below the angels. That is a direct contradiction.

I know it's not. I know I have answered that and you can read it well. Again, for the sake of argument: It was not God our Father Himself who literally said those words although Paul rendered "and about the son he say...: It was not the author's [Paul's] contention.

My suggestion... disregard my post regarding that one. But read again the Book of Hebrews and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you while reading.

Ok, you are saying that it wasnt God the father who literally said those words. But who is being spoken of as saying those words?

Luke 20 :41-44

And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David’s son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

So again, who is being spoken of having said this to his son? Its not a matter of whether or not David wrote it, its the content that is being addressed.

Actually I have addressed this already.

Yes. God is Spirit and cannot be seen in His form. Yet, the people of the Old have seen Him. Why so? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Accepting that it was not the Father, then who? The Son? How can they see the Son? The Son in the flesh?

I contend not that the Son was in the flesh prior to being born on earth so obviously not. But they did say they saw God. It was not simply that they couldnt see God because he was a spirit (can people not see angels who are spirits? ) but also that the Father was too holy for man to look upon.

So who was it they saw when they said they saw God? I only know of one who is said to be the exact representation of the Father. I only know of one who says if you have seen me, then you have seen the Father. 🙂

And we know that you cant see the Father.

Originally posted by clickclick
Yes Satan was the ruler of the world, that is why he could offer Jesus the world. If Jesus had authority over all things, that wouldnt be the case.

Well, what does therefore mean? Lets see when he was exalted and when he sat on the right hand of God.

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Acts 2:33-36 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

1 Cor 15: 24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There are more, ive posted more but this should be sufficient. Now you are claiming that he was exalted before and given authority over all before his death. Yet, the bible says that he was exalted to the right hand. And it tells us when that happend. So are you claiming that he was exalted twice? The first one didnt really count? Also, it is clear in this passage that all of his enemies were not under his feet. The last one to be destroyed was death. Now when was death Conquered? Before or after Jesus died? When did Jesus get authority over all things?

As to being made a little lower than the angels. Your whole contention is faulty. You are contending that God made Jesus below the angels yet you are saying that he was given all the authority. Umm, ive already disproved that one. Being made a little below the angels, Jesus did not then have all the powers of God (as you so indicated). You cant be in the form of God and a little below the angels. That is a direct contradiction.

Jesus Christ Himself was already superior to the angels when God gave Him the name that is above every name... and therefore worthy to be called "Lord". And this was true when the angels at the time of His birth called the baby Jesus "Lord".

But why He is still said that He was made lower than angels? Because Jesus is a man. And the ministering spirits like angels are indeed higher than human beings naturally. This is God's will. The prophesied Son of God will be found in a form of a human being... not among the angels.

It is not correct to say that Jesus Christ was exalted twice. Jesus Christ was already exalted even before He was born. This was the glory Jesus Christ had before the foundation of the world. He was prophesied as a "Lord"... and will be given the authority to perform God's will.

Jesus Christ came to fulfill the will of God. Part of God's will is His ministry... And also to introduce to them who the true God is. So anybody who believed in His preaching and be baptized will be one of God's chosen people. But how can He perform these things when He was not given all authorities by God?

At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Matthew 11:25-27, NKJV

The Son of God was given the name which is above every name and with this name everyone should bow down and worship Him and should call Him "Lord". This is just synonymous to say Jesus is highly exalted.

After God's will fulfilled by Jesus Christ at the time of His death, He was indeed exalted in the right hand of God. So there's a difference in His being exalted. Generally, Jesus was highly exalted [given a name above every name and worthy to be called "Lord" and perform everything God told Him to do] but not yet "sitting in the right hand of God" because God's will was not yet fulfilled. But when He had finally fulfilled the will of God for salvation, He was exalted in the right hand of God... and yet still to make His enemies a footstool to His feet [“Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”]. There was still a second death awaits in the lake of fire for the people who are not in righteousness. This people can still be saved if they will turn to God.

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
Ok, you are saying that it wasnt God the father who literally said those words. But who is being spoken of as saying those words?

Luke 20 :41-44

And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David’s son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

So again, who is being spoken of having said this to his son? Its not a matter of whether or not David wrote it, its the content that is being addressed.

And again, it was David who wrote that particular Psalm... that's why he said in his Pslam:

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Meaning, the LORD [God] said to the Lord [Christ] of David: Sit at my right hand... etc.

That's why I said, "unless otherwise stated" the words written in the books of Old are the literal words of the writers... but because of the Holy Spirit... those books are considered the "words of God".

That's why Paul considered it as "and about the Son, God says:" - to emphasize to the Hebrews that their Holy Writ has also mentioned of Jesus Christ.

🙂

Again, the Messiah was already foreknown before the foundation of the world. So, the people of God of the Old already had a knowledge of His coming and glory through the Holy Spirit.

And again, it was David who wrote that particular Psalm... that's why he said in his Pslam:

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Meaning, the LORD [God] said to the Lord [Christ] of David: Sit at my right hand... etc.

That's why I said, "unless otherwise stated" the words written in the books of Old are the literal words of the writers... but because of the Holy Spirit... those books are considered the "words of God".

That's why Paul considered it as "and about the Son, God says:" - to emphasize to the Hebrews that their Holy Writ has also mentioned of Jesus Christ.

The point is that the bible says the Father said this to and about the son. Paul was quoting David, great. A lot of stuff in the new testament are people quoting things from the old testament. But what the message in what Paul wrote? He is saying things of Father to the son. So I addressed the message in that passage.

Do you know that Jesus is said to be God's wisdom? And that in the new testament he is given all the attributes that was given to "wisdom" in Proverbs?

I know you still contend that there was no pre existing person that was the word. But that holding that belief is not biblical.

There is excessive mention that there was a pre existence and never is said to have been a plan. In fact if it were, it would be written entirely differently. This message is repeated numerous times throughout the bible. That the Father is the founder of the world and it was through Jesus christ who made everything.

Like John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Or eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

The name Jesus Christ does not mean a plan. Also, if people wanted to portray that somebody was not in existence, they wouldn't say that things were done by them.

Isaih 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

I recall earlier you said that the context in which Jesus said he is the Alpha and the Omega was not the same as when the Father says it. But the contention doesnt follow suit. Jesus is saying that he is truly the omega and yet you contend that he doesnt mean that he is truly the alpha? The choice to derive a non literal interpretation is biased in nature. It makes complete sense if Jesus is the Alpha because it says in the bible that he everything was created by him and through him. So what would be the need for a non literal interpretation and why would he be speaking figuratively and literally at the same time?

Hebrews 2: 14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Jesus was exalted to the highest place after his death and subsequent resurrection, the right hand of God.

Eph 1:19-22
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church

Originally posted by clickclick
The point is that the bible says the Father said this to and about the son. Paul was quoting David, great. A lot of stuff in the new testament are people quoting things from the old testament. But what the message in what Paul wrote? He is saying things of Father to the son. So I addressed the message in that passage.

Originally posted by clickclick
Do you know that Jesus is said to be God's wisdom? And that in the new testament he is given all the attributes that was given to "wisdom" in Proverbs?

Originally posted by clickclick
I know you still contend that there was no pre existing person that was the word. But that holding that belief is not biblical.

Originally posted by clickclick
There is excessive mention that there was a pre existence and never is said to have been a plan. In fact if it were, it would be written entirely differently. This message is repeated numerous times throughout the bible. That the Father is the founder of the world and it was through Jesus christ who made everything.

Like John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Or eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by clickclick
The name Jesus Christ does not mean a plan. Also, if people wanted to portray that somebody was not in existence, they wouldn't say that things were done by them.

Also, if people wanted to portray that somebody was not in existence, they wouldn't say that things were done by them.

Originally posted by clickclick
Isaih 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

I recall earlier you said that the context in which Jesus said he is the Alpha and the Omega was not the same as when the Father says it. But the contention doesnt follow suit. Jesus is saying that he is truly the omega and yet you contend that he doesnt mean that he is truly the alpha? The choice to derive a non literal interpretation is biased in nature. It makes complete sense if Jesus is the Alpha because it says in the bible that he everything was created by him and through him. So what would be the need for a non literal interpretation and why would he be speaking figuratively and literally at the same time?

And about the "Alpha and Omega", I may post again:

As for the "Alpha and Omega"... This title was applied to both God and Christ. But that doesn't mean Jesus is God.. or God is Jesus. As I've said earlier in previous pages: there are titles of God that were also applicable to Christ... like the Lord, the Rock, and the Savior. But there are differences and distinctions.

Although the words "Alpha" and "Omega" are used to describe both God (in Rev. 1:8) and Christ (in Rev.22:13), this neither states nor means that God and Christ are the same--one God. And to conclude that Christ is also God based on these verses is contradicting the fundamental doctrine that there is one true God, the Father Almighty (Jn. 17:1, 3).

Alpha (first letter of the Greek alphabet) and Omega (last letter of the Greek alphabet) mean first and last, respectively. Although it is stated that both God and Christ are "Alpha" and "Omega" they differ in their being "Alpha" and "Omega."

The Lord God is Alpha or first since He is the creator of all things and all things came from Him:

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came..."
I Corinthians. 8:6, NIV

God is Omega or last because He was the One who appointed the day of Judgement or the end of the world, and when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, Christ will subject Himself to God so that "God may be all in all" [Acts 17:31; I Cor. 15:28]

On the other hand, Christ is Alpha or first because He is the firstborn of all creation:

"He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation."
Colossians. 1:15, NIV

Therefore, the use of Alpha as applied to Christ is significantly different from the use of Alpha as applied to God. Likewise, Omega as applied to Christ is also different from the Omega as applied to God.

Christ is Omega because it is through Him that God will judge the world: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. II Cor. 5:10, Ibid.]

It is important to bear in mind that the use of "Alpha" and "Omega" for God is different in meaning and in sense from that for Christ. Hence, Revelation 1:8 and 22:13 do not prove that Christ is God... nor Christ existed in the beginning as God.

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
Hebrews 2: 14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Jesus was exalted to the highest place after his death and subsequent resurrection, the right hand of God.

Eph 1:19-22
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church

🙂

Again, Jesus Christ was foreknown by God before the foundation of the world. This is also in the same manner how the people of God was foreknown before the world was. The Father is not only the Founder, also the Creator of everything and He created everything THROUGH Jesus Christ, FOR Jesus Christ and BY Jesus Christ

Being foreknown is one thing. Having something made BY somebody who didnt exist, is another entirely. The people of God being foreknown before the world was, is entirely different to what is being discussed here.

Thank you for quoting Isaiah 9:6-7...
This proves that at Christ's birth, the government shall be placed upon His shoulder. This government is a powerful authority. He will be given a name which is above every name and synonymously be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And about the "Alpha and Omega", I may post again:

You are saying it is through Jesus that God will judge the world, yet you contend that it was not in actuality or literally through Jesus that the world was created. Hardly follows.

If God and Jesus are both the alpha and the omega, it is because God made the beginning and the end through Jesus literally. The title Alpha and Omega was meant to show the divinity of Jesus Christ, of what he is. There is obviously a reason why both Jesus and God the Father have that title, and the information for that is given in the bible.

As to Jesus being called mighty God and Everlasting Father, Lord of hosts etc, you contend that it really says that? Thats surprising given the position you have taken.

I didn't say something like "the name Jesus Christ means a plan". Having the name "Jesus" for the Christ is part of God's will.

Yes but the point is that the bible says that everything was created by Jesus. It says that of the word and of the son. Jesus is attributed as being the word of God.

Yes. Not literally. But in the case of the Christ, because He was FOREKNOWN... and God knew this will be fulfilled... because no one can stop what has proclaimed by God... the world and everything was made because of Him, our Lord Jesus Christ... He became the reason of everything... "for without Him, nothing was made that has been made".

Not literally is your interpretation, obviously but it isnt necessary to take a non literal interpretation. Saying that for without him, nothing was made that has been made is consistent with what ive been saying. It doesnt say for without a plan, never is that how things are potrayed. It is always that it was him there.

Originally posted by clickclick
Being foreknown is one thing. Having something made BY somebody who didnt exist, is another entirely. The people of God being foreknown before the world was, is entirely different to what is being discussed here.

Jesus Christ became the reason why God created everything. For without Jesus, nothing was made that has been made.

So, Jesus Himself didn't create everything.

God, our Father, created everything THROUGH, FOR, and BY our Lord Jesus Christ.

God, our Father - the one and only true God - remains the Creator.

Originally posted by clickclick
You are saying it is through Jesus that God will judge the world, yet you contend that it was not in actuality or literally through Jesus that the world was created. Hardly follows.

If God and Jesus are both the alpha and the omega, it is because God made the beginning and the end through Jesus literally. The title Alpha and Omega was meant to show the divinity of Jesus Christ, of what he is. There is obviously a reason why both Jesus and God the Father have that title, and the information for that is given in the bible.

So. Jesus and God, having the same title as the "Alpha and Omega", these two are both Gods?

Surely, you'll answer, a big NO!

Again, Jesus, having titles similar to God does not prove He is God.

Maybe, the Holy Sprit also is called the "Alpha and Omega"? What you think?