Jesus Christ

Originally posted by Jury
Again, if people believe the "Spirit of God" is a person thing, it's pagan.

The Hebrew and the early Christians [not the Trinitarians] do not take it as a person. It is an essence and of being present.

🙂

Something I wanted to add is that in the hebrew interpretation the female being "holy spirit" was given the name of Sophia, which is the greek Goddess of Wisdow(the hebrew interpretation is greek too), it is interesting that in some gnostic manuscripts from the 4th century that same Godess Sophia is related to Christ.

Anyway... the only ones I know who accept the hebrew interpretation is the Seventh Day Adventists. So even if the hebrew version was not pagan, they will be the only ones who are not contradicting themselves.

So then, non christian along with who ever believing or not has the same powers or influences do each other.....Totally cool. It's just the way the universe works.

1. If Jesus is God, how could he die for our sins?
2. How can Jesus be “God” and have a “God” at the same time?
3. If Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God in heaven when the book of Revelation was written, why does Jesus continue to make such clear statements that our heavenly Father is his “God” if he himself is God?
4. If God cannot be tempted by evil, yet Jesus was tempted in every way we are, how can he be God?
5. If Jesus is God, then why does he pray to God and call Him “the only true God”?
6. If Jesus is God, why did he pray at all?
7. If Jesus is God, why did he say to his disciples: “Trust in God; trust also in me”?
8. According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father and Son are co-equal. If that is true, how can the Father be (in any way) greater than Jesus?
9. How can Jesus “be like us in every way” and still be “100% man and 100% God”?
10. If Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted, why would the Devil tempt Jesus?

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Something I wanted to add is that in the hebrew interpretation the female being "holy spirit" was given the name of Sophia, which is the greek Goddess of Wisdow(the hebrew interpretation is greek too), it is interesting that in some gnostic manuscripts from the 4th century that same Godess Sophia is related to Christ.

Anyway... the only ones I know who accept the hebrew interpretation is the Seventh Day Adventists. So even if the hebrew version was not pagan, they will be the only ones who are not contradicting themselves.

Now Jury, would totally dumbfound you if you found out god was a women....??

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Something I wanted to add is that in the hebrew interpretation the female being "holy spirit" was given the name of Sophia, which is the greek Goddess of Wisdow(the hebrew interpretation is greek too), it is interesting that in some gnostic manuscripts from the 4th century that same Godess Sophia is related to Christ.

Anyway... the only ones I know who accept the hebrew interpretation is the Seventh Day Adventists. So even if the hebrew version was not pagan, they will be the only ones who are not contradicting themselves.

As for me, I don't believe that the "spirit of God" is a person, or a separate God, or whatever.

🙂

Because it's a force of everything and in ever thing. Not inclusive to any one group, but all exclusive.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes, I have also heard this taught....Some call it the famine side of god, for that is what it really means...And If you look at the first few books of proverbs it certainly is called "She" or a Woman"...and to listen to her...many have called it the pre body of Christ...the famine aspect of god....

Now Jury, would totally dumbfound you if you found out god was a women....??

The figure of speech Personification is common in Scripture, and is defined as attributing personal qualities, feelings, actions, etc., to things that have no real personality or personal consciousness.

For instance, the Spanish word for car is masculine, el carro, while a bicycle is feminine, la bicicleta. Now, should we consider the car as a man and the bicycle a woman just because they have personification genders?

The Greek text does, of course, have the masculine pronoun, because like many languages, including Spanish, French, German, Latin, Hebrew, etc., the Greek language assigns a gender to all nouns, and the gender of the pronoun must agree with the gender of the noun.

In French, for example, a table is feminine, la table, while a desk is masculine, le bureau, yet nobody wants to call a table a woman, or a desk a man.

Wisdom is personified as such in Proverbs 8 and 9, yet no sensible person would seriously consider that a literal person named “Wisdom” helped God create the world, as Proverbs 8:30 says.

🙂

Yes I know about non gender, as I know spanish, though I thought in proverbs wisdom is actually called a "Women"...I'll have to look it up.

Proverbs 31: the valorous woman; women in Tanakh...Why doesn't it say wisdom is like a man, or like a father, a friends, brother, son...It is always called a she, or her, or a women....hmmmmm

I think that accepting the holy spirit as a person or not, doesn´t make it more or less pagan. It is not about the trinity, without the trinity it stills pagan. But I´m not saying that the holy spirit is necessarily bad or something like that. Maybe pagan teachings were not bad, maybe they have some truth that christianism incorporated into their own religion. Do you think that could be possible ?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Now Jury, would totally dumbfound you if you found out god was a women....??

Ironic... the only way to eliminate contradictions requires that we accept the feminine side of God.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
I think that accepting the holy spirit as a person or not, doesn´t make it more or less pagan. It is not about the trinity, without the trinity it stills pagan. But I´m not saying that the holy spirit is necessarily bad or something like that. Maybe pagan teachings were not bad, maybe they have some truth that christianism incorporated into their own religion. Do you think that could be possible ?

Ironic... the only way to eliminate contradictions requires that we accept the feminine side of God.

True, I think that it doesn't matter if you believe or not in the holy spirit, because it is just as the wind blows, It's the force of thought into an environment of reality which it can make...It's the essence maybe of the creative force...ie the action after the thought or before it kind of thing...Though the religious community has captured it and dressed it in the clothes of a different type of god and then stating that if you don't believe you have committed the unpardonable sin...Which could actually mean a sin of not taking stock in your actions of creation yourself, which we are all part of..... possibly IMO.

And for the feminine side of god being like the Yin Yang/ or the creator/force or the intellect/emotion creator/creative process. what would be so terrible awful as having both sides of the force and not just one? It doesn't make it less positive and forceful..

The holy spirit also gives life, it no surprise that it is related to pneuma which can be translated as spirit, and breath, also meaning life, and the Goddess which acts as the feminine principle who brings life/birth to things. Mary gave birth to Jesus through the holy spirit.

There is still some parallel between the holy spirit, and kundalini, a concept from hinduism.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes I know about non gender, as I know spanish, though I thought in proverbs wisdom is actually called a "Women"...I'll have to look it up.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Proverbs 31: the valorous woman; women in Tanakh...Why doesn't it say wisdom is like a man, or like a father, a friends, brother, son...It is always called a she, or her, or a women....hmmmmm

1 The sayings of King Lemuel--an oracle his mother taught him:
2 "O my son, O son of my womb, O son of my vows,
3 do not spend your strength on women, your vigour on those who ruin kings.
4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel--not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer,
5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
6 Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.
8 "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
10 A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still dark; she provides food for her family and portions for her servant girls.
16 She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her:
29 "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all."
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

Proverbs 31:1-31
New International Version

Oh. So, where's the "Wisdom" being referred as "Woman" there?

Again, the term "wisdom" when translated into English was given a feminine pronoun she/her because Hebrew language, as well as Greek and other languages, assign/s gender to all nouns.

The "wisdom" there has feminine pronouns that's why it is referred to as "she" or "her". But, it doesn't necessarily mean that the "wisdom" there is a "woman" as in a "female person". No.

This is true to other nouns as what I have presented earlier.
In French, la table has a feminine gender, thus given a feminine pronoun. But in English, we never consider the table as a "woman".
In Spanish, el carro is a masculine, yet in English, we never consider the car as a man.
In Greek, pneuma is a neuter and that's why the "spirit" is supposed to have neuter pronoun in English - "it".

Originally posted by Atlantis001
I think that accepting the holy spirit as a person or not, doesn´t make it more or less pagan. It is not about the trinity, without the trinity it stills pagan. But I´m not saying that the holy spirit is necessarily bad or something like that. Maybe pagan teachings were not bad, maybe they have some truth that christianism incorporated into their own religion. Do you think that could be possible ?

Ironic... the only way to eliminate contradictions requires that we accept the feminine side of God.

The word "spirit" has various meanings and therefore has different usage.

If Paganism has their own meaning of "spirit", so be it.
If Hebrews do have their own meaning of "spirit", so be it.

To Christians, however, the "spirit of God" is referred to God's power and gift... not a separate person or a God. The use of the "spirit" depends on the context of its occurrence. There are "spirits" which referred as persons and entities like angels or evil spirits, but the "spirit of God" never refers to a person separate from God. The Bible has various usage of "spirit" like: the Spirit of wisdom, the spirit of understanding, the spirit of counsel, the spirit of might, the spirit of knowledge and the spirit of the fear of the Lord. These “spirits” are undoubtedly symbols of the intense power of insight and judgment, essence and presence as well.

English expressions also use the word "spirit" but couldn't be traced from Pagan usage or from any religious stuff [e.g. spirit of the law, spirit of joy, team spirit, spirit of something].

WHAt?!

The Bible does indeed teach that Jesus is God incarnate.
Examples:

1.In the Old Testament, He is the Child who is called ‘Mighty God’ and ‘Everlasting Father’ (Hebrew is literally ‘Father of Eternity’, meaning ‘Author of Eternity’) (Isaiah 9:6, cf. 10:21) He would be born in Bethlehem, yet His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ (Micah 5:2)

2.He is called ‘Lord’ (Romans 10:9) where ‘Lord’ (kurios) is a translation of the Old Testament Yahweh (= God) (Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32 which makes this clear)

3.He is the Creator (Colossians 1:16–17).

4. He is called "God" John 1:1; 20:28; Heb. 1:8;

5.he is called I Am (John 8:58)

6.Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"

Jesus is worshiped by not only men but angels:
Hebrews 1:6 speaks of Christ when it says, “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”

This is just a little of all the evidence. There is a ton more. So, yes the Bible teachs Jesus is God.

Originally posted by Jury
To Christians, however, the "spirit of God" is referred to God's power and gift... not a separate person or a God. The use of the "spirit" depends on the context of its occurrence. There are "spirits" which referred as persons and entities like angels or evil spirits, but the "spirit of God" never refers to a person separate from God. The Bible has various usage of "spirit" like: the Spirit of wisdom, the spirit of understanding, the spirit of counsel, the spirit of might, the spirit of knowledge and the spirit of the fear of the Lord. These “spirits” are undoubtedly symbols of the intense power of insight and judgment, essence and presence as well.

The holy spirit as it is in the paganism, is not generally taken as a separate entity also, even if it is associated to a Goddess, something that the hebrew interpretation did too. That is just symbolic, one must be careful to get the meaning behind that. The holy spirit must be understood as a part of our individual self, like the spirit of God within ourselves.

Kinda like the "Christ within" as the gnostics put it.

Oh, and I realized after I posted that in Proverbs it's mentioned "As like a women", and not worded "A women."..Yet still someone like King David, must have a great respect of wisdom being like a women..

Originally posted by Son of Man
WHAt?!

The Bible does indeed teach that Jesus is God incarnate.
Examples:

1.In the Old Testament, He is the Child who is called ‘Mighty God’ and ‘Everlasting Father’ (Hebrew is literally ‘Father of Eternity’, meaning ‘Author of Eternity’) (Isaiah 9:6, cf. 10:21) He would be born in Bethlehem, yet His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ (Micah 5:2)

Originally posted by Son of Man
2.He is called ‘Lord’ (Romans 10:9) where ‘Lord’ (kurios) is a translation of the Old Testament Yahweh (= God) (Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32 which makes this clear)

Originally posted by Son of Man
3.He is the Creator (Colossians 1:16–17).

Originally posted by Son of Man
4. He is called "God" John 1:1; 20:28; Heb. 1:8;

Originally posted by Son of Man
5.he is called I Am (John 8:58)

Originally posted by Son of Man
6.Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"

Originally posted by Son of Man
Jesus is worshiped by not only men but angels:
Hebrews 1:6 speaks of Christ when it says, “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”

Originally posted by Son of Man
This is just a little of all the evidence. There is a ton more. So, yes the Bible teachs Jesus is God.

At this point, let me know what your contention regarding the Father and the Son. But before you answer the questions below, please consider my posts above. 😊

1. Is the Father also the Son? Yes or No.
2. Is the Father different from the Son? Yes or No.
3. Is the Father the only true God? Yes or No.

🙂

And also, consider the following questions. 🙂

1. If Jesus is God, how could he die for our sins?
2. How can Jesus be “God” and have a “God” at the same time?
3. If Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God in heaven when the book of Revelation was written, why does Jesus continue to make such clear statements that our heavenly Father is his “God” if he himself is God?
4. If God cannot be tempted by evil, yet Jesus was tempted in every way we are, how can he be God?
5. If Jesus is God, then why does he pray to God and call Him “the only true God”?
6. If Jesus is God, why did he pray at all?
7. If Jesus is God, why did he say to his disciples: “Trust in God; trust also in me”?
8. According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father and Son are co-equal. If that is true, how can the Father be (in any way) greater than Jesus?
9. How can Jesus “be like us in every way” and still be “100% man and 100% God”?
10. If Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted, why would the Devil tempt Jesus?

🙂

I beg to differ, I dont belive the Holy Spirit is a pagan invention.
This is what The Bible teachs about The Holy Spirit (showing that the claims for the HS can be backed up)

The Holy Spirit is mentioned on equal level with God The Son and Father- Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

He is the one who convicts the world of sin (John 16:8), who teaches (John 14:26; 15:26), and who anoints (1 John 2:27).
But is the person of the Holy Spirit God by nature? Well, let's find out. In Acts 5:3, 4 we read this:
"Then Peter said, ‘Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.' "
Verse 3 says he lied to the Holy Spirit. Verse 4 says he lied to God. Therefore the Holy Spirit must be God.
In Exodus 17:2, 7 we read:
"So they quarreled with Moses and said, ‘Give us water to drink.' Moses replied, ‘Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the LORD [that is, Jehovah] to the test?' " ... "And he called the place Massah and Meribah because the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the LORD [that is, Jehovah] saying, ‘Is the LORD [or is Jehovah] among us or not?' "
Now this is referred to in the New Testament in Hebrews 3:9. I want you to see the comparison. In Hebrews 3:9 it is the Holy Spirit that is speaking from verse 7. In verse 9 the Holy Spirit is still speaking and he said, "where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did." So the Holy Spirit is the one they tested, but Exodus 17 says it was Jehovah. So the Holy Spirit must be Jehovah, or YHWH.

(sorry for the double post)
I am not gonna answear all 10 of your questions (Sorry I really dont have time right now)ok, lets get started.
answear to 1)This question stems from a misconception about HOW Christians believe Jesus is God. We believe Jesus is God BY NATURE. We do NOT believe Jesus is the person of the Father! He can NOT be the Father, since He prayed to the Father in Jn. 17! He certainly wasn't praying to Himself. The Bible teaches that Jesus is God by NATURE, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is only one true God by NATURE. See Gal. 4:8. The Trinity is NOT defined as three Gods in one, but instead three Persons in one God. God is the NATURE of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Remember, Jesus isn't only God by nature, but also man! Jesus could die as any other human, because He became man (and still is man) besides being God by NATURE.
answear to 2) I guess you are pointing to Jn. 20:17. (that is one verse Jesus calls His Father God)Jesus said this as a man (he was still on Earth. Remember Jessu has two natures a human and divine). This, however, doesn't change the clear evidence that shows Jesus is God. The Apostle Thomas called Jesus, "My Lord and my God," Jn. 20:28. The Greek literally says, "The Lord of me and the God of me." Remember also that Thomas was a strict monotheistic Jew. Was the Apostle Thomas "in the truth?" Obviously he was. Was the Apostle Thomas part of the early church? Obviously he was. Therefore, the early church believed that Jesus is God. If you claim to believe and teach like the early church, then shouldn't you proclaim the same? Are you in the same "light" that the Apostles were in? Furthermore, the Father identifies Jesus as "God" in Heb. 1:8. Again, the Greek says, "the God." Certainly the Father knows the true identity of the Son. Also, Heb. 1:6 declares that "ALL the angels worship Him [Jesus]." Who do the angels worship, according to Rev. 19:10? According to Heb. 1:6, the angel of Rev. 19:10 WORSHIPS Jesus! In fact, Jesus' disciples WORSHIPED Him too (Matt. 28:9). So, God the Father called Jesus God (Heb 1:8), So why would God (the Father) have a God (Jesus) since he call Jesus his God in Heb. 1:8? It is the same question you asked, but with a twist. I wil answear more in my next post.