????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
o.o i thought it was a good assessment...maby Ki Adi would have been above Qui Gon but Qui Gon got my vote for the awesome dueling and just being plain cool and since being OLD Human Jedi Master being able to defend himself quite well aginst a MUCH YOUNGER ZABRAK Sith Apprentace/Lord there has been speculation that by the time of Episode I that Darth Maul had gained the Status of a Sith Lord rather then just an apprentace,,,,
What is this madness?
If this thread is based on combat effectiveness, including all PT Jedi at their peak (which would include Dooku, Sora Bulq, and Depa):
1) Yoda
2) Mace Windu
3) Anakin Skywalker
4) Dooku
5) Sora Bulq
6) Depa Billaba
7) Obi-Wan Kenobi
8) Anoon Bondara
9) Agen Kolar
10) Qui-Gon Jinn
In sheer bladework and technical skill:
1) Anoon Bondara
2) Dooku
3) Sora Bulq
4) Depa Billaba
5) Mace Windu
6) Agen Kolar
7) Cin Drallig
8) Yoda
9) Obi-Wan Kenobi
10) -Open-
I don't know that Yoda mastered any forms other than Ataru and Shii-Cho, and much of Anakin's effectiveness comes from his essentially unlimited power.
Sora and Depa above Obi-Wan?
And as for Anoon > Dooku, I think it's plausible that Dooku- during the over ten years time he had to refine his complete mastery of Makashi after Anoon's death- surpassed Anoon in terms of pure technical skill.
I believe Yoda was stated in the issue when all the forms were introduced to be a master of every form, but preferring Ataru. Not sure, though.
Otherwise, I completely agree with your list.
Sora is a master of every single lightsaber form, and is considered one of the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi (Databank). Depa's swordplay had surpassed Mace's own in TPM times (Shatterpoint), and although his numerous advantages over her physically and in the Force would allow him to handily kick her ass, it's pretty much explicitly stated by Mace himself that she's a superior duelist.
To the matter of Dooku; I believe he resigned almost immediately after the events of TPM, at which point he's no longer a Jedi. Besides, I don't know how much he could've improved his technical ability after seventy-something years in the Temple.
Originally posted by Faunus
Sora is a master of every single lightsaber form, and is considered one of the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi (Databank). Depa's swordplay had surpassed Mace's own in TPM times (Shatterpoint), and although his numerous advantages over her physically and in the Force would allow him to handily kick her ass, it's pretty much explicitly stated by Mace himself that she's a superior duelist.To the matter of Dooku; I believe he resigned almost immediately after the events of TPM, at which point he's no longer a Jedi. Besides, I don't know how much he could've improved his technical ability after seventy-something years in the Temple.
That's all technical skill you got there. Obi-Wan was able to block up to twenty strikes per second, surprise Dooku- yes, Count Dooku- with his impressive defense, and hold his own against Anakin Skywalker. Now, I know that this was due to other advantages Obi-Wan had and Anakin is his superior in swordplay, but Obi-Wan even being able to keep up with Anakin (and stalemate him in a force contest) is highly impressive.
By the way, Mace also implied Kenobi is a greater Jedi than himself; or, well, he questioned his 'dominance' over Obi-Wan in the saber combat category.
Aside from that, both Depa and Sora are users of Vaapad, ergo they will not be able to utilizie it to its full advantage against Obi-Wan; and like you said, you either need to have truly incredible technical advantages (Dooku), or need to be considerably faster and stronger (Yoda) in order to beat Obi-Wan in a saber duel. Neither Depa nor Sora have displayed- as far as I know- sufficient skill in either one of these ones. If I'm wrong, though, please enlighten me.
And yeah. I guess Dooku could have increased somewhat in technical skill, but given the fact that Bondara was 'second to none' in the Jedi Order, well... it's really hard to gauge the true difference between him and Dooku. But I'm certain Dooku would beat him in a saber fight, anyway.
Why would Dooku be so high up in technical skill? Has his mastery of the lightsaber even been as properly defined as some of the others? I'd personally say that any Juyo master should be placed above him, given they've all been stated to be outright high end masters of multiple forms. What has Dooku got going for him that puts him even close?
1. Anoon Bondara - Most technically skilled Jedi of the PT era as of his time.
2. Sora Bulq - Helped Mace Windu create Vaapad (requiring mastery of Juyo, which by extension, required high end mastery of multiple forms), perfecting the various classical and experimental combat techniques, and declared one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Order had ever known.
3. Depa Billaba - By Mace Windu's own admission, his technical superior in Vaapad.
4. Mace Windu - Created Vaapad, outright stated to be one of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced.
5. Agen Kolar - Outright stated to be one of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced.
6. Kit Fisto - Renowned among his Order for as much.
7. Saesee Tiin - See above.
8. Qui-Gon Jinn - "A master swordsman by anyone's standards," described as being the greatest swordsman he had ever trained in over 400 years by his lightsaber instructor, and apparently (along with Mace Windu) made Anoon Bondara doubt his status as the greatest technical swordsman amongst the Jedi of his time.
9. Obi-Wan - Had Mace Windu question his superiority over the Soresu Master, was capable of blocking up to sixteen strikes from Grievous (which were described as all coming from different angles and speed and intensity) through essentially his technical ability alone (if you read the passage, he's described as knowing exactly how to shift his wight and stance and angle his lightsaber so that Grievous' attacks either headed directly to his lightsaber or right past him).
10. Anakin Skywalker - Combined his mastery of Djem So with elements of "all known forms of combat."
Evidently, Dooku does know elements of all the forms, due to him personally training Grievous in lightsaber combat- and Grievous actually knew every single conventional lightsaber form.
In addition, Dooku's mastery of his form of choice- Makashi- has been refined during his extensive lifetime. He was called a 'legendary duelist' multiple times, Qui-Gon Jinn held him in extremely high renown, as evidenced by his quote calling Dooku a 'fencer', saying that 'leverage, position, advantage' are all as 'natural to him as breathing'.
Yeah. Dooku is, as of RotS, the most technically skilled swordsman in the galaxy (Anoon, his only possible rival, is dead). That's not to say he is the most effective overall swordsman; Anakin, Sidious, Yoda, and likely Mace can all defeat him in a saber duel.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Evidently, Dooku does know elements of all the forms, due to him personally training Grievous in lightsaber combat- and Grievous actually knew every single conventional lightsaber form.
Where is it explicitly stated that he actually trained Grievous in all the forms? I know he did train him to some extent, but I was always under the impression that he had learnt all of the forms via the computers hooked to his brain that were capable of analysing and copying the moves of his opponents.
Aside from that, there's this from the RotS novelisation:
"Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.
"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him.""
This would indicate that Makashi would be the sole form he'd be capable of teaching Grievous, otherwise it would make no sense for one of his peers in the Order to conclude as much.
In addition, Dooku's mastery of his form of choice- Makashi- has been refined during his extensive lifetime.
I'm sure many Jedi would have trained extensively with their chosen form of combat. Why would this set Dooku apart?
He was called a 'legendary duelist' multiple times,
Which is a stamp that could be applied to many of the above (Mace Windu and Agen Kolar being outright stated to be some of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced; Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin being acknowledged as such by their peers within the Order; Depa Billaba who by Mace's own admission was his technical superior; Sora Bulq who was declared a legendary lightsaber instructor; Qui-Gon Jinn standing out amongst 400 years worth of Jedi as the greatest of them all according to the guy who trained them all).
Not to mention, you say multiple times, but you said the same thing about Mace Windu being one of the deadliest Jedi ever, only to take it back soon afterwards. Could you source where you're getting your info from?
Qui-Gon Jinn held him in extremely high renown, as evidenced by his quote calling Dooku a 'fencer', saying that 'leverage, position, advantage' are all as 'natural to him as breathing'.
That's great for Dooku, I still don't see how this establishes the position that you appear to give him. Amongst some of the greatest swordsmen ever, that fencing came naturally to him is a pretty worthless point.
Yeah. Dooku is, as of RotS, the most technically skilled swordsman in the galaxy (Anoon, his only possible rival, is dead). That's not to say he is the most effective overall swordsman; Anakin, Sidious, Yoda, and likely Mace can all defeat him in a saber duel.
...Yeah, you didn't even come close to proving any of that. As Mace Windu's words would indicate, he was only truly proficient with a single lightsaber form: Makashi, and as for his supposed legendary status, the same can be said for almost everyone on my list. That Qui-Gon regarded him as a "fencer" is as worthless a point as you could give, and training in his chosen form of combat extensively throughout his lifetime can be said for almost any dedicated one form Master of the Lightsaber there is. I fail to see how Dooku truly stands out.
Just realised I wasn't properly able to convey my point with the RotS excerpt.
This would indicate that Makashi would be the sole form he'd be capable of teaching Grievous, otherwise it would make no sense for one of his peers in the Order to conclude as much.
What I meant to say was that it would make little sense for Mace Windu to conclude that Grievous would undoubtedly have learnt Makashi from Dooku, and not to go out of his way to mention any other forms if Dooku truly was proficient with more than just Makashi.
Originally posted by Taven
Where is it explicitly stated that he actually trained Grievous in all the forms? I know he did train him to some extent, but I was always under the impression that he had learnt all of the forms via the computers hooked to his brain that were capable of analysing and copying the moves of his opponents.
I'm pretty sure the quote is somewhere on LoE- however, I can't find my damned copy at the moment, so, until I find more evidence, I'll concede that point.
Originally posted by Taven
I'm sure many Jedi would have trained extensively with their chosen form of combat. Why would this set Dooku apart?
Let's go by your scenario, alright? That Dooku is only truly proficient with Makashi. Now, while that seems fairly ludicrious, let's say it's true.
1. Dooku is 80 years old, older than basically any other human force-user in the saga. During his early age, he was driven towards Makashi an unconventional form at the time- why? So he could duel people better. He's a competitive guy.
2. He was called the 'Temple's greatest student', regarded as the ultimate loss and failure when he left.
3. Dooku was naturally more attracted to lightsaber combat than actual force usage.
4. Dooku was- despite his incredible prowess with the force- known to rely on the force only minimally (he is rarely seen using the same speeds of heavy force users, like Yoda, for example), yet he was still capable of handling a barrage from Grievous' four sabers.
5. Considering that Dooku, according to you, only knew one form masterfully, he would logically master it to its apex during his extensive lifetime, wouldn't you say? 75 years or so of training in a singular form, and the form best suited for dueling.
Originally posted by Taven
Which is a stamp that could be applied to many of the above (Mace Windu and Agen Kolar being outright stated to be some of the greatest swordsman the Order had ever produced; Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin being acknowledged as such by their peers within the Order; Depa Billaba who by Mace's own admission was his technical superior; Sora Bulq who was declared a legendary lightsaber instructor; Qui-Gon Jinn standing out amongst 400 years worth of Jedi as the greatest of them all according to the guy who trained them all).
Who was that person who instructed Qui-Gon? Prove that he encountered, and in any shape or form actually trained Dooku.
Dooku was called one of the greatest Jedi in history, and an even greater Sith Lord, mind you.
Originally posted by Taven
Not to mention, you say multiple times, but you said the same thing about Mace Windu being one of the deadliest Jedi ever, only to take it back soon afterwards. Could you source where you're getting your info from?
Dark Rendezvous, for just one source.
Originally posted by Taven
That's great for Dooku, I still don't see how this establishes the position that you appear to give him. Amongst some of the greatest swordsmen ever, that fencing came naturally to him is a pretty worthless point.
It didn't come to him naturally so much as it came to him over his extensive years of practice. Please. No one has fencing come that naturally to him; Qui-Gon, Dooku's own apprentice who would logically fence him countless times thought that Dooku's technical skill was incredible to that extent. And Qui-Gon died more than 10 years prior to RotS, during which Dooku should have increased in prowess.
Originally posted by Taven
...Yeah, you didn't even come close to proving any of that. As Mace Windu's words would indicate, he was only truly proficient with a single lightsaber form: Makashi, and as for his supposed legendary status, the same can be said for almost everyone on my list. That Qui-Gon regarded him as a "fencer" is as worthless a point as you could give, and training in his chosen form of combat extensively throughout his lifetime can be said for almost any dedicated one form Master of the Lightsaber there is. I fail to see how Dooku truly stands out.
-Dooku is old. Plenty amount of time- in fact, much more than any one you listed- to train his lightsaber prowess.
-Dooku is a saber specialist. According to you, he even only truly knows one form, so his focus- and his complete mastery of it- should be astounding.
-Dooku is one of the greatest Jedi in history.
Originally posted by TavenYes, by Obi-Wan. The narrator only gives such praise to Kolar and Windu.
6. Kit Fisto - Renowned among his Order for as much.7. Saesee Tiin - See above.
9. Obi-Wan - Had Mace Windu question his superiority over the Soresu Master, was capable of blocking up to sixteen strikes from Grievous (which were described as all coming from different angles and speed and intensity) through essentially his technical ability alone (if you read the passage, he's described as knowing exactly how to shift his wight and stance and angle his lightsaber so that Grievous' attacks either headed directly to his lightsaber or right past him).It's ironic that you consider Obi-Wan Dooku's technical superior for mastering Soresu to its highest level when the Count mastered Makashi - by all accounts a more complex and multifaceted combat form - to a higher degree than anyone else in the Order, knew every fault and flaw of Ataru thanks to his training under Yoda and his tutoring of Qui-Gon (two of the most prominent users of the style), and actively taught Grievous the seven lightsaber forms. LoE makes mention of this, as does RotS:
"I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku." -- Grievous
Not to mention that the feat you mentioned was regularly replicated by Dooku in their sparring sessions.
10. Anakin Skywalker - Combined his mastery of Djem So with elements of "all known forms of combat."As the suited Darth Vader, once he had to make severe alterations to his combat style. There's no indication he had much variety as a Jedi.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I'm pretty sure the quote is somewhere on LoE- however, I can't find my damned copy at the moment, so, until I find more evidence, I'll concede that point.Let's go by your scenario, alright? That Dooku is only truly proficient with Makashi. Now, while that seems fairly ludicrious, let's say it's true.
Fairly ludicrous? Did you not just read the excerpt I provided? That one of his peers within the Order -- who happaned to spar with him on numerous occasions -- only recognised him as a Makashi practitioner would make the contrary fairly ludicrous. I mean what, has Dooku been doing a Darth Bane and taking secret training courses? Or set out to master the six other forms in the ten tears that followed his departure from the Order?
1. Dooku is 80 years old, older than basically any other human force-user in the saga.
So you're using that as a basis to claim that Dooku was relatively old for a Jedi? That humans apparently have far larger life spans than they do in the real world, the average life span being well into the hundreds (as Jango Fett alludes to in Betrayal), and that the Jedi Order is full of different alien races that would naturally have larger life spans as well, as well as the fact that the Force has been known to further the life spans of its practitioners, I fail to see how the fact that Dooku was 80 follows on to the idea that he would have had a noticeably longer length of time to master lightsaber combat.
During his early age, he was driven towards Makashi an unconventional form at the time- why? So he could duel people better. He's a competitive guy.
Do you have any real proof for that or are you just assuming? In most sources his preference for the form appears to be based on its elegance.
2. He was called the 'Temple's greatest student', regarded as the ultimate loss and failure when he left.
Yoda calls him the greatest student with respect to his wisdom, strength, and knowledge in the Force. He never listed lightsaber skill as a factor in his opinion.
3. Dooku was naturally more attracted to lightsaber combat than actual force usage.
Which fits him for the bill of a Jedi Guardian, an entire class full of Jedi who were just as focused on their lightsaber ability.
4. Dooku was- despite his incredible prowess with the force- known to rely on the force only minimally (he is rarely seen using the same speeds of heavy force users, like Yoda, for example), yet he was still capable of handling a barrage from Grievous' four sabers.
This fits into #3, not to mention that his lack of such displays is likely more to do with inability rather than non reliance.
5. Considering that Dooku, according to you, only knew one form masterfully,
Firstly, I never made a definitive stance either way. All I said, was that based on existing knowledge, he can't be said to have mastered more than just Makashi.
he would logically master it to its apex during his extensive lifetime, wouldn't you say? 75 years or so of training in a singular form, and the form best suited for dueling.
Well I don't know, these forms appear to be made up of hundreds of thousands of different moves and sequences (Kas'im's seven form mastery of the dual sabers consisted of millions). That he could master it to its absolute apex, even in such a long time, begs for proof. He's certainly never demonstrated especially amazing learning potential.
Who was that person who instructed Qui-Gon? Prove that he encountered, and in any shape or form actually trained Dooku.
I wouldn't have to prove that for a point to be there. That he was held in such a high position by his lightsaber instructor, with so many Jedi (over 400 year's worth) who would be eligible for such a high level of praise, it speaks enormously for his natural talent with a lightsaber.
That Dooku wasn’t one of those Jedi that had been trained in those 400 years doesn’t mean that such acknowledgement wouldn’t put Qui-Gon above Dooku in the area. We argue on what we know, and Dooku can’t be said to have possessed such brilliance with the weapon, to stand out to such a degree.
Dooku was called one of the greatest Jedi in history, and an even greater Sith Lord, mind you.
Which doesn't necessarily say the same for his lightsaber prowess, and to assert as much would be a Fallacy of Division.
Dark Rendezvous, for just one source.
Well I just checked it, and you're right, it is said that he was a legendary swordsman, however, as I said, the same can be said for almost any of the Jedi I'd brought up. That their legendary status is supported and defined, whereas Dooku's is not, still puts them on a greater playing field.
It didn't come to him naturally so much as it came to him over his extensive years of practice. Please. No one has fencing come that naturally to him; [/uote]...I was purely speaking off of the evidence that you brought up, I wasn't really making a point of how natural fencing came to the Count, it just felt a fitting and brief reference to what you were saying, given that you did quote a passage that essentially stated that everything that makes up fencing came naturally to him.
Ignore the phrasing if you want, the point I was making was that how inclined to fencing he may have been, it says nothing with respect to the scope we're dealing with here. Bare in mind that you're claiming that Dooku was the most technically skilled duelist in the Galaxy, and I'm arguing his position among the top ten; that he was a fencer and possessed such qualities doesn't make him stand out in the least.
[quote]Qui-Gon, Dooku's own apprentice who would logically fence him countless times thought that Dooku's technical skill was incredible to that extent.
Not really. All he made a point of was Dooku's preference for the art of fencing.
And Qui-Gon died more than 10 years prior to RotS, during which Dooku should have increased in prowess.
He doesn't make a comment on his prowess though, he's simply describing what Dooku was more suited towards.
-Dooku is old. Plenty amount of time- in fact, much more than any one you listed- to train his lightsaber prowess.
Again, that he was 80 does not lead on to the idea that he possesses an anomalous length of time to train with his lightsaber for.
-Dooku is a saber specialist.
Again, how does this make Dooku stand out? There was an entire class in the Order devoted to saber specialisation: the Jedi Guardians (Source: Power of the Jedi). With the scope that we're dealing with in this discussion, this is worthless.
According to you, he even only truly knows one form, so his focus- and his complete mastery of it- should be astounding.
Well it's a double edged sword, really. The more time he spends devoting himself to one form, the smaller the familiarity he'll possess with the others. All that he possesses in his specialisation with Makashi, he lacks in versatility and completeness. As good as he may have been with Makashi, he would have only ever been a one-dimensional master of the weapon.
-Dooku is one of the greatest Jedi in history.
Which doesn't necessarily say the same for him as a lightsaber practitioner, and to assert as much would be a Fallacy of Division.
Originally posted by TavenPlease condense opinion... but i get it.
Fairly ludicrous? Did you not just read the excerpt I provided? That one of his peers within the Order -- who happaned to spar with him on numerous occasions -- only recognised him as a Makashi practitioner would make the contrary fairly ludicrous. I mean what, has Dooku been doing a Darth Bane and taking secret training courses? Or set out to master the six other forms in the ten tears that followed his departure from the Order?So you're using that as a basis to claim that Dooku was relatively old for a Jedi? That humans apparently have far larger life spans than they do in the real world, the average life span being well into the hundreds (as Jango Fett alludes to in Betrayal), and that the Jedi Order is full of different alien races that would naturally have larger life spans as well, as well as the fact that the Force has been known to further the life spans of its practitioners, I fail to see how the fact that Dooku was 80 follows on to the idea that he would have had a noticeably longer length of time to master lightsaber combat.
Do you have any real proof for that or are you just assuming? In most sources his preference for the form appears to be based on its elegance.
Yoda calls him the greatest student with respect to his wisdom, strength, and knowledge in the Force. He never listed lightsaber skill as a factor in his opinion.
Which fits him for the bill of a Jedi Guardian, an entire class full of Jedi who were just as focused on their lightsaber ability.
This fits into #3, not to mention that his lack of such displays is likely more to do with inability rather than non reliance.
Firstly, I never made a definitive stance either way. All I said, was that based on existing knowledge, he can't be said to have mastered more than just Makashi.
Well I don't know, these forms appear to be made up of hundreds of thousands of different moves and sequences (Kas'im's seven form mastery of the dual sabers consisted of millions). That he could master it to its absolute apex, even in such a long time, begs for proof. He's certainly never demonstrated especially amazing learning potential.
I wouldn't have to prove that for a point to be there. That he was held in such a high position by his lightsaber instructor, with so many Jedi (over 400 year's worth) who would be eligible for such a high level of praise, it speaks enormously for his natural talent with a lightsaber.
That Dooku wasn’t one of those Jedi that had been trained in those 400 years doesn’t mean that such acknowledgement wouldn’t put Qui-Gon above Dooku in the area. We argue on what we know, and Dooku can’t be said to have possessed such brilliance with the weapon, to stand out to such a degree.
Which doesn't necessarily say the same for his lightsaber prowess, and to assert as much would be a Fallacy of Division.
Well I just checked it, and you're right, it is said that he was a legendary swordsman, however, as I said, the same can be said for almost any of the Jedi I'd brought up. That their legendary status is supported and defined, whereas Dooku's is not, still puts them on a greater playing field.
Not really. All he made a point of was Dooku's preference for the art of fencing.
He doesn't make a comment on his prowess though, he's simply describing what Dooku was more suited towards.
Again, that he was 80 does not lead on to the idea that he possesses an anomalous length of time to train with his lightsaber for.
Again, how does this make Dooku stand out? There was an entire class in the Order devoted to saber specialisation: the Jedi Guardians (Source: Power of the Jedi). With the scope that we're dealing with in this discussion, this is worthless.
Well it's a double edged sword, really. The more time he spends devoting himself to one form, the smaller the familiarity he'll possess with the others. All that he possesses in his specialisation with Makashi, he lacks in versatility and completeness. As good as he may have been with Makashi, he would have only ever been a one-dimensional master of the weapon.
Which doesn't necessarily say the same for him as a lightsaber practitioner, and to assert as much would be a Fallacy of Division.