Originally posted by Taven
Fairly ludicrous? Did you not just read the excerpt I provided? That one of his peers within the Order -- who happaned to spar with him on numerous occasions -- only recognised him as a Makashi practitioner would make the contrary fairly ludicrous. I mean what, has Dooku been doing a Darth Bane and taking secret training courses? Or set out to master the six other forms in the ten tears that followed his departure from the Order?
Or maybe he had knowledge of all forms, but preferred to use Makashi? You know, that would be the same as Yoda. I believe that in Star Wars Insider 62 listed Yoda as a master of all forms, but one that prefers to use Ataru in order to overcome his natural limitations.
Originally posted by Taven
So you're using that as a basis to claim that Dooku was relatively old for a Jedi? That humans apparently have far larger life spans than they do in the real world, the average life span being well into the hundreds (as Jango Fett alludes to in Betrayal), and that the Jedi Order is full of different alien races that would naturally have larger life spans as well, as well as the fact that the Force has been known to further the life spans of its practitioners, I fail to see how the fact that Dooku was 80 follows on to the idea that he would have had a noticeably longer length of time to master lightsaber combat.
Pfft. Every single Jedi/Sith you listed lived a considerably shorter period than Dooku; even Mace, the oldest one of them, was just over 50 at the time of his death. In other words? Dooku had far more time to study lightsaber combat than all of them, had a passionate love for lightsaber combat, and was extremely strong in the force.
Originally posted by Taven
Do you have any real proof for that or are you just assuming? In most sources his preference for the form appears to be based on its elegance.
Right. Let's figure it out, shall we?
Makashi is known to be extremely weak to blaster-bolt deflection. Guess what? When Dooku was a young Jedi, the Sith were thought to be extinct (Even Sidious was a kid at the time), and therefore, there was no reason for a Jedi to train in a form suited for lightsaber combat. It's 'elegance' is completely meaningless and impractical when it comes to fighting droids. But, instead, Dooku became the finest practitioner of the best form to fight in saber combat. According to the official Databank, Dooku is:
"Despite his stubbornness, the Jedi Archives record Dooku as being a formidable Jedi. He settled numerous disputes on scattered worlds and was unequaled in a classical form of lightsaber combat."
Yeah, Dooku was the greatest technical user of his form of choice. And the form that requires the most grace, percision, and dueling skill. In other words? The form that relies most on technical skill.
Originally posted by Taven
Yoda calls him the greatest student with respect to his wisdom, strength, and knowledge in the Force. He never listed lightsaber skill as a factor in his opinion.
So, do you think Dooku qualifies as one of the greatest Jedi/Sith in history because of his prowess in the force? Dooku is a great force user, but I don't think even you will argue that he is a greater lightsaber combatant than he is a force user.
Originally posted by Taven
Which fits him for the bill of a Jedi Guardian, an entire class full of Jedi who were just as focused on their lightsaber ability.
Dooku is the greatest user of the form that relies most on technical skill; he is also the oldest human, older than any one you listed. He is extremely talented in the force, powerful, and prodigious.
And despite his immense talent in the force, he prefers to use his skill alone in order to defeat his opponents. His technical skill has to be incredible if he relies almost alone on it in combat when fighting powerhouses like Mace, wouldn't you agree?
Originally posted by Taven
This fits into #3, not to mention that his lack of such displays is likely more to do with inability rather than non reliance.
Dooku is an incredible force user. He is also physically fit, like a man half his age; so, he can logically use the force to empower himself to great degrees.
Originally posted by Taven
Firstly, I never made a definitive stance either way. All I said, was that based on existing knowledge, he can't be said to have mastered more than just Makashi.
Let's say he mastered nothing else than Makashi, okay? Then, let's take into account his incredible force prowess, his prodigy status, his age, his 'unequaled' prowess in Makashi, and his passion for lightsaber dueling and elegance. His mastery of Makashi must be simply incredible.
Originally posted by Taven
Well I don't know, these forms appear to be made up of hundreds of thousands of different moves and sequences (Kas'im's seven form mastery of the dual sabers consisted of millions). That he could master it to its absolute apex, even in such a long time, begs for proof. He's certainly never demonstrated especially amazing learning potential.
And Kas'im is far younger than Dooku, and displayed far less force power than Dooku did. Dooku, being older, more powerful in the force, more refined, and more focused in his form of choice should be able to master it to a far greater extent than any of Kas'im's forms.
Originally posted by Taven
I wouldn't have to prove that for a point to be there. That he was held in such a high position by his lightsaber instructor, with so many Jedi (over 400 year's worth) who would be eligible for such a high level of praise, it speaks enormously for his natural talent with a lightsaber.
Yeah, it does. But I hope you're not arguing that Qui-Gon > Dooku in technical skill, right? Considering how Qui-Gon spoke of Dooku and his prowess with a lightsaber, that seems so unlikely.
Originally posted by Taven
That Dooku wasn’t one of those Jedi that had been trained in those 400 years doesn’t mean that such acknowledgement wouldn’t put Qui-Gon above Dooku in the area. We argue on what we know, and Dooku can’t be said to have possessed such brilliance with the weapon, to stand out to such a degree.
Really? Being the 'unequaled' master of the form that relies most on technical skill for a good portion of his life, relying almost purely on his technical skill in combat, and referred to as a 'legendary duelist' multiple times, a person who trained himself so his technical prowess is enough to make 'leverage, position, advantage' come completely naturally to him?
Dooku may only be a master of Makashi, that's true. But if he is, his prowess in it should be unbelievable.
Originally posted by Taven
Which doesn't necessarily say the same for his lightsaber prowess, and to assert as much would be a Fallacy of Division.
Dooku's saber prowess > force prowess. Seriously, if his force prowess is sufficient to get him on the list of 'greatest Jedi of all time', imagine what his lightsaber prowess should do.
Originally posted by Taven
Well I just checked it, and you're right, it is said that he was a legendary swordsman, however, as I said, the same can be said for almost any of the Jedi I'd brought up. That their legendary status is supported and defined, whereas Dooku's is not, still puts them on a greater playing field.
You're ridiculous. I've already shown you percisely how his technical skills come into play, and how he should logically be such a great technical swordsman.
Being able to compete with Mace Windu- an incredibly fast and physically strong being (much more than Dooku)- thanks to technical skill alone should be enough for his 'technical skill' to be seen as beyond any person you listed.
Originally posted by Taven
Not really. All he made a point of was Dooku's preference for the art of fencing.
Of course!
... not. He described Dooku's fluency, incredible skill, and natural talent in fencing, which requires extreme technical skill.
Originally posted by Taven
He doesn't make a comment on his prowess though, he's simply describing what Dooku was more suited towards.
Oh, Jesus. Describing how all of the technical aspects required for dueling come so naturally to Dooku due to his incredible amount of training and technical skill is not a comment on his prowess?