Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Of course, you can compare the 'literary intelligence' of different genres, but it's a futile exercise as each example is ultimately representative to its own genre. There is simply no point in trying to argue that a lyric from a prog-rock group is superior to that of a ghetto-supastar. They are both born into the circle they live in.Ya catch ma fire?
Yes, I never missed.......ya fahre.
It depends one why you're arguing superiority doesn't it? My point was that I don't believe there's ever been a hip hop artist (no disrespect to hip hop, because I love it too) who can match lyrics like that. Not do I believe there will be, just because of the nature of the genre. Hip hop, despite being focused on lyricism, is more limited than rock lyricism. Eg: It has to rhyme for the most part. Has to go to a beat.
-AC
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd FlooWow. Sometimes, I can't work out if you are a real live boy or a fantastic fallacy fountain. Although, considering the garbage you spew, perhaps the sobriquet 'Muck-Spreader' would be more appropriate.
Either way, I like your work. It's like a teenage angst case-study for all the net to see.
Quite humourous: 8 on ten.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It depends one why you're arguing superiority doesn't it? My point was that I don't believe there's ever been a hip hop artist (no disrespect to hip hop, because I love it too) who can match lyrics like that. Not do I believe there will be, just because of the nature of the genre. Hip hop, despite being focused on lyricism, is more limited than rock lyricism. Eg: It has to rhyme for the most part. Has to go to a beat.
I don't limit the accolade of being 'intelligent' to those who consider the stars. There's intelligence to be found in the hip-hop artist's appreciation of the street life. Just because one is going galactic and the other is positively grounded, doesn't mean that they both can't be appreciated as being equally intelligent.
It may seem that I am straying slightly from the 'literature in music' debate, but I feel the same sentiments can be applied. As I stated before, the term 'literature' can be applied to any form of creative writing. The key here then is 'creativity'. I feel that good hip-hop artists show - in their lyrical dexterity - an equal amount of creativity to that found in the philosophical musings of bands like Tool.
This is why I think it is futile to compare levels of 'intelligence'.
Well no band has lyrics like Tool, nor are there bands like Tool, though that's a whole other debate.
The key is only creativity if that's what you're looking for. You're making new points that I haven't even delved into. The whole reason I am involved in this debate is because I don't believe that, when it comes down to intelligence, Maynard James Keenan has produced far greater lyrics than any hip hop artists ever. Reason being that it takes a greater mind to have those philosophical musings than it does to talk about streetlife. Streetlife is mainly based off experience, the subject matter in Tool songs are mainly to do with that which isn't as readily accessible. Anybody with the right application of skill, has a personal life to rhyme about. Not everybody could write a Tool song, because not everybody is smart enough to understand what's being discussed.
-AC
Of course I won't, because they were New Kids on the Block. A talentless group of corporate sleazebags. Not Tool, who are quite arguably the greatest band on Earth, to one degree or another.
I do wonder if in 20 years you'll still feel disgust for me. Because you show no signs of moving on and ignoring me despite your rabid disliking of me. Or are you still compelled to reply out of disgust? As you once said. Seriously dude, just let it go. You don't care about me, I don't care about you. I see no reason why you have to shadow me.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Not Tool, who are quite arguably the greatest band on Earth, to one degree or another.
-AC
I like Tool, I've been listening to them since the mid nineties, when you were but a pup, but lay off the fanboyism and get a grip.
It seems very important fot you to declare your love for Tool and to pay homage to them. But it is becoming ridiculous. As for being the greatest band every, well, I highly doubt it, but that's your opinion, just don't try and state it as though it is an arguable fact.
Major, major assumptions in that post. Major.
However there are a few bands I love that I believe could take the title, not just Tool. Nor do I believe they are the second coming of christ. That's you, once again, exaggerating a point I never made and attempting to act like I made it.
Oh and the fact that you've liked Tool for a long time and don't like them as much as me, doesn't mean that the degree to which I like them is wrong. Nor is it fanboyism. Nor have I ever said it's a fact that they are what I claim they are. I've always said and stood by the fact that I cannot prove one band to be factually better than another in terms of music created. So why don't you get a grip and stop acting like my shadow? It's not cool, it's not funny, quit it.
This has been just another excuse for you to reply to me really, because everything I've just said, you already knew. I find that rather sad and I'm still puzzled as to why you, a man who claims I love the attention, keep giving your attention to me. It's all bollocks really isn't it?
-AC
I can't see what my points are, for you. If all you see is that, it isn't my fault.
I've not mentioned Tool unless it's by name. My argument has involved one member, not all 4. That IS a fact. I mentioned the band in any real context when KharmaDog decided to get into it.
That's all I wanted to clear up, I've been over the rest.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've not mentioned Tool unless it's by name. My argument has involved one member, not all 4. That IS a fact. I mentioned the band in any real context when KharmaDog decided to get into it.
-AC
Looking back through this thread I saw th following:
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well you show what you believe to be the cream of the crop in terms of hip hop lyricism, content wise. A few, infact. I'll then post a couple Tool songs and we can analyse what lyrics are superior in terms of literature, meaning and such.I think it's quite futile trying to find a hip hop lyric that will be anything worthy of thinking to compare to Tool , but by all means I'm up for being surprised.
Personally I find it outlandish to insist any MC could equal or better those. after posting the lyrics of Schism, Third Eye and Eulogy by Tool .
I don't think there is a best Tool song really. I think there are ones better than others but once you get to a certain level it's impossible to call.
Maynard isn't cryptic because he's trying to confuse people. The fact that (by his own admission) no one really gets his lyrics is because they're above most people's comprehension. Pretentious isn't Maynard's lyrics, pretentious is Cedric Bixler's lyrics. There is a difference. People label Tool as pretentious if they don't understand them. Like Inspectah is doing by labelling Maynard's lyrics as nothing special. If I don't "get" lyrics, I won't go and say they're nothing special.
I personally don't ever hold lyrics as high as music no matter who it is because they're not as important as the music. The only reason I've put focus on them now is because it's a debate about lyrics.
I hold Maynard's lyrics in such high regard when discussing lyricism because of a multitude of elements. Certain things he has written mean quite a lot to me but that's not why I hold them as high as I do.
The thing that makes Tool what they are isn't the lyrics, it's the music. All the music the four of them make. They're not a band you can just throw on and tap your foot to, it's an interactive process. So if you have time, patience and intelligence to go with understanding, then you'll be rewarded. If not, I suggest not trying. A lot of people haven't been able to get into them and just write them off (as Inspectah more or less did). Which is sad. Don't judge how incredible they are by what people think because the things you've read are by people who love Tool for different reasons. So just appreciate it how you want to.
The first piece of advice is to not get into them by downloading the odd song, to get everything out of them you need to be a part of the albums
Well no band has lyrics like Tool , nor are there bands like Tool, though that's a whole other debate.
Not everybody could write a Tool song, because not everybody is smart enough to understand what's being discussed.
-AC
You mentioned Tool plenty of times before I "decided to get into it". If we also add all you posts regarding Maynard James we could probably double what I have shown here.