Literature in Music?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I personally don't ever hold lyrics as high as music no matter who it is because they're not as important as the music. The only reason I've put focus on them now is because it's a debate about lyrics.

I hold Maynard's lyrics in such high regard when discussing lyricism because of a multitude of elements. Certain things he has written mean quite a lot to me but that's not why I hold them as high as I do.

The thing that makes Tool what they are isn't the lyrics, it's the music. All the music the four of them make. They're not a band you can just throw on and tap your foot to, it's an interactive process. So if you have time, patience and intelligence to go with understanding, then you'll be rewarded. If not, I suggest not trying. A lot of people haven't been able to get into them and just write them off (as Inspectah more or less did). Which is sad. Don't judge how incredible they are by what people think because the things you've read are by people who love Tool for different reasons. So just appreciate it how you want to.

The first piece of advice is to not get into them by downloading the odd song, to get everything out of them you need to be a part of the albums.

-AC

Cool, thanks. BTW i wasnt judging them by what people have been saying (i'll let my own ears do that). But if you read about a band who are as well thought of by people who seem to know what they are talking about, you (or maybe just me) are naturally curious, thats all.

Yeah, understandable. Wasn't having a go, just making suggestions.

-AC

I know man, we both obviously have a need to clarify ourselves.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The point you are quite clearly missing is that I'm pointing out, as you already said, that the lyrics of Maynard and rock's other great lyricists are more ladvanced in the literary sense than hip hop's. I'm not trying to say hip hop's best don't have talent, I'm not claiming any less of MCs which has seem to be the misconception

Your comprehension of the term 'literary' is very narrow-minded. I suggest you breathe in and expand your lungs.

I suggest you let me worry about me and my comprehension of things. People understood the point, still do and will continue to. No point in your point.

-AC

Round 1!

Not round anything, he said something then I said something. He made a suggestion, I made a suggestion.

Never understood why people take everything to be hostile here.

-AC

Dont take it so personal man. I was just remembering the 5 page barn stormer you with Krunk'd about downloading. This could easily be the start of another (or not).

It wasn't a barn stormer about downloading. It was him not liking what I said and as a result, trolling me across the forum and my PM box.

Contrary to belief I'd rather not have that again and in all the other times I've encountered him on the forum he hasn't done it again so I'm guessing it was a one off.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Not round anything, he said something then I said something. He made a suggestion, I made a suggestion.

Never understood why people take everything to be hostile here.

-AC

OHHHHHHH, No you didn't!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't a barn stormer about downloading. It was him not liking what I said and as a result, trolling me across the forum and my PM box.

Contrary to belief I'd rather not have that again and in all the other times I've encountered him on the forum he hasn't done it again so I'm guessing it was a one off.

-AC

Thanks for clearing that up then. It just seemed like it from the outside.

Originally posted by BackFire
OHHHHHHH, No you didn't!!!!!!!

Yes, you bet I did.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well opinion can be wrong

I'm not denying it's opinion, you can sit there and deny it all day long due to preference. You're obviously not aware that the point I'm making is that Maynard's lyrics (see the ones I posted) are beyond any MC's ability.

-AC

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
No...

Yes, factually an opinion can be wrong. There's no debate on this. Opinion can be wrong, I'm sorry you feel it can't, but it can. Please don't turn into one of those people who hides behind "Oh but it's my opinion" as if it's some bulletproof shield.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I'm fully aware that you hold Maynard above any MC, what I'm still a little unclear on is whether or not you believe it's a fact. I mean in one post you'll say it's provable then you'll say its more likely to be true and then you say that you're not denying it's an opinion. Which is it?

Why are you continually asking? I never even said it was a fact because it's always gonna be slightly subjective. I do believe it's as close to fact as you can get while being subjective though. I don't believe anyone who appreciates lyricism, REGARDLESS OF PREFERENCE, can look at Maynard's lyrics and claim that a hip hop MC has produced more intellectual/intelligent lyrics. It's not something I can prove but I can't prove that Britney Spears is shit either, see where I'm going?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, factually an opinion can be wrong. There's no debate on this. Opinion can be wrong, I'm sorry you feel it can't, but it can. Please don't turn into one of those people who hides behind "Oh but it's my opinion" as if it's some bulletproof shield.

Why are you continually asking? I never even said it was a fact because it's always gonna be slightly subjective. I do believe it's as close to fact as you can get while being subjective though. I don't believe anyone who appreciates lyricism, REGARDLESS OF PREFERENCE, can look at Maynard's lyrics and claim that a hip hop MC has produced more intellectual/intelligent lyrics. It's not something I can prove but I can't prove that Britney Spears is shit either, see where I'm going?

-AC

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Come on.. you're a smart guy.. you can't see the contradiciton in an opinion being wrong?

No, because there isn't one. An opinion is a belief upheld with confidence. Anything believed with confidence is an opinion. People believed with confidence that the Earth was flat. It was their opinion, they were wrong. Opinions can be wrong, I'm not going to sit here trying to cure your confusion as to why they can be, but they can be.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Well you did say it was provable... and you can't prove a "slightly subjective opinion that's really close to being a fact."

Well as it's been stated above, subjectively I can't. Under certain criteria lyrics can be proven to be better than another.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, because there isn't one. An opinion is a belief upheld with confidence. Anything believed with confidence is an opinion. People believed with confidence that the Earth was flat. It was their opinion, they were wrong. Opinions can be wrong, I'm not going to sit here trying to cure your confusion as to why they can be, but they can be.

Once something is factually "right" or "wrong" it's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well as it's been stated above, subjectively I can't. Under certain criteria lyrics can be proven to be better than another.

-AC

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
But that's not an opinion, it's a fact. The fact that they had their facts wrong back then doesn't mean an opinion can be wrong. There's a difference between a false fact and an opinion.

No you're wrong. Back then, nobody knew. They believed with confidence that the Earth was flat and nobody could prove it wrong or right. It was their opinion, it was proven wrong. NOW it's a fact, THEN it was still round but nobody knew, and people believed with confidence that it was flat. It was a wrong opinion. An opinion proven wrong. Because? Opinion can be wrong. I've gone over this and proven it to about seven different people in the music forum, with about five others who know that opinion can be wrong. Whether you agree or not, it doesn't matter. Anything believed with confidence that isn't yet proven to be a fact, is an opinion. That's what their's was, an opinion and as you said, once it was proven to be a fact, it was no longer an opinion. Their opinion was proven wrong by fact. Opinion can be wrong. You can't grasp or accept this, it's not my problem.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Eh.. I'm not denying this but I would like to see at least one example where one lyric beats another factually in a certain criteria. Just to see where you're coming from.

Intelligence/intellectual subjects, innovative/uniqueness.

No hip hop MC has done anything as intelligent with lyrics or on subjects as Maynard has. Proof? Read the lyrics I posted and then tell me that any MC has equalled or bettered that in terms of intelligence. You can't, because there hasn't been any. Assuming you know what they're referring to.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't a barn stormer about downloading. It was him not liking what I said and as a result, trolling me across the forum and my PM box.

Contrary to belief I'd rather not have that again and in all the other times I've encountered him on the forum he hasn't done it again so I'm guessing it was a one off.

-AC

This is more than a little off-topic, but I feel I should enlighten you again. I responded to your post about 'why would anyone skip a track on an album' and your waffer-thin skin came out in pimples. Also, I never PM'd you about it, so stick the facts, Batman.

It never happened again - 'til now (oh, the irony!) - because I had no interest in debating with someone who resorts to playground retorts along the line of "Waaah, you started it!".

So, my new suggestion to you is...Goo-goo-goo-ga-gaaa-ge-gaaa - Yep, now I'm speaking your language! Better? That's good.

I think that music and literature are very close. It's much more pleasant to listen to songs which contain poetry.