Originally posted by XplosiveThis same principal also extends to Crossgen comics, as humanity eventually became "The First" and then completely forgot their past, which is why they were baffled when the Atlanteans, a race older than themselves awoke. I wish Crossgen was still around in force.. I think in time it could have took the #3 publisher spot as they had the highest quality art, stories, and their books HAD NO ADS.
Thanks GS. I thought so, I know its knows for some time humanity will surpass abstracts. I knew Abstracts were evolved humanity of the last (like Eternity and...), but I didnt know its goes the same for LT. I just thought LT wasnt that like other abstracts.
I'm trying to stay out of this circular debate, but I can't. People still have a serious problem discerning between purpose and power around here.
A creation of God does not always have to be below an aspect of God.
That's incorrect.
A creation can be an equal in terms of power, it simply can not surpass. God could create something that had access to all of his abilities, not simply his creation aspect (like the Phoenix Force is).
Case in point being The Heart of The Universe, which was a creation.
Trying to downgrade Tribunal based soley on the fact he is a creation of God (TOAA) is faulty logic.
Jean Grey is also a creation of God (TOAA), and through her physical being she has access to the creation power of the TOAA, the "Phoenix Force".
LT is also a creation of God (TOAA), and through his physical being/M-Body, he is empowered by TOAA to have dominion over all creation until the time which TOAA deems fit to destroy creation and start anew. His power simply doesn't have a fancy name like "The Protector Force".
Both Phoenix and LT get their power from the same place. Only difference being their roles.
One creates existence and then destroys it.
The other protects the existence created until it is time for it to be destroyed.
People are reading too much into it.
And also, of that pic of LT and the other abstracts kneeling before Phoenix with the Stranger ice grillin in the back, that was not an actual event, that was simply a depiction of what could have happened if the Stranger's plans had come to fruition. If Stranger had taken control of the creation cycle through Phoenix, he could lord it over the abstracts and screw up the process to his liking. It's only a matter of interpretation that that picture somehow shows Phoenix's superiority to the other abstracts. You have to look at it in it's full context. What I see is that Stranger, by perverting Phoenix's powers, had the abstracts at his mercy because he could meddle with creation any way he sees fit. In the normal order of things, all the pieces work in harmony and fulfill their roles. This just shows what could happen if part of that cycle, albeit a MAJOR part, acted out of routine. If someone gained control of Living Tribunal's powers and went stupid with them you'd see all the abstracts kneeling before him too.
Originally posted by illadelph12Case in point being The Heart of The Universe, which was a creation.
How so?
Originally posted by illadelph12
Trying to downgrade Tribunal based soley on the fact he is a creation of God (TOAA) is faulty logic.
Not as faulty as placing LT above phoenix when they are shown to be peers at least. During the creation cycle their roles complement each other. LT intervening against multiversal threats while phoenix maintains the creation cycle as a whole. Its when the cycle draws to an end that LT's usefulness draws to a close and he is replaced in time for the next creation. As you can see from past hierarchy lists ive no problem with placing them on the same rung of the cosmic ladder. What i do have a problem with is people blindly positioning LT above when current continuity disagrees with that. Thats the point when i'll argue otherwise.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean Grey is also a creation of God (TOAA), and through her physical being she has access to the creation power of the TOAA, the "Phoenix Force".
Less a creation of god and more her being the form with which phoenix manifests in creation. That much at least was cleared up by New X-men and confirmed by Endsong.
Originally posted by illadelph12
And also, of that pic of LT and the other abstracts kneeling before Phoenix with the Stranger ice grillin in the back, that was not an actual event, that was simply a depiction of what could have happened if the Stranger's plans had come to fruition. If Stranger had taken control of the creation cycle through Phoenix, he could lord it over the abstracts and screw up the process to his liking. It's only a matter of interpretation that that picture somehow shows Phoenix's superiority to the other abstracts. You have to look at it in it's full context. What I see is that Stranger, by perverting Phoenix's powers, had the abstracts at his mercy because he could meddle with creation any way he sees fit. In the normal order of things, all the pieces work in harmony and fulfill their roles. This just shows what could happen if part of that cycle, albeit a MAJOR part, acted out of routine. If someone gained control of Living Tribunal's powers and went stupid with them you'd see all the abstracts kneeling before him too.
The replacement of the abstracts and Lt is a process which happens naturally anyway at the end of each creation cycle and is a process controlled and brought about by Phoenix. Stranger wanted to access Jeans power to speed up this process and bring about the end on his terms hence the picture i posted of what would happen if Stranger accessed the power. (i.e he would be supreme over all other beings in creation) With or without intervention the replacement happens anyway.
[quote]Case in point being The Heart of The Universe, which was a creation.
How so?[/quote]
Wasn't the Heart of the Universe the device the Cellestials used to give Akhenaton his powers, and then Thanos used it and became basically one with TOAA's powers? And wasn't this basically a plot by TOAA in the first place?
Or did I interpret The End wrong?
Originally posted by illadelph12
How so?
Wasn't the Heart of the Universe the device the Cellestials used to give Akhenaton his powers, and then Thanos used it and became basically one with TOAA's powers? And wasn't this basically a plot by TOAA in the first place?
Or did I interpret The End wrong? [/QUOTE]
The HOTU was an energy source. That device helped them tap into it and distribute the power amongst the Order. Thats how i interpreted it. Anyone?
HOTU was just that, the HEART of creation, having the combined power of all the universes in the multiverse, it was beyond any abstract and beyond the tribunal himself{who is above all abstracts}, n thas why it destroyed the entire multiverse than recreated it{althought the recreation could be attributed to TOAA} anyway, it wasnt as powerful as TOAA
Question:
Is the Heart another "aspect" of TOAA like the "Phoenix Force" is supposed to be, or an energy source created by TOAA?
And:
True for abstracts, but you wouldnt see Phoenix kneeling to LT. They showed Phoenix is beyond LT.
I'm not so sure about that picture showing Phoenix is beyond LT. That picture can be interpreted many ways. You and GS see it as Phoenix being superior to everything. I see it as Stranger perverting the purpose of the Phoenix Force in creation to gain leverage over the other abstracts. Phoenix's purpose as the instrument used to create and destroy existence does not necessarily make it more powerful than something it is used to create. Logically, TOAA can never create anything greater than himself, but he can create something equal. And besides that, Phoenix is not the sum of TOAA, it's an aspect. TOAA could create something (using Phoenix) that embodies more than that one aspect of himself.
Purpose doesn't equal power.
I can use a screwdriver, power drill, a pair of pliars, 5 tons of steel, and a uranium rod to build a nuclear reactor. That doesn't make the tools I used more powerful than the creation, even if I could take the reactor apart with the same tools.
Oh, and before it's said (GS):
The premise that the abstracts are the evolved humans from the previous existence, and that when the creation cycle ends they will be "replaced" by the next evolved humanity, is really of no consequence. In the previous existence (where Galan/Galactus is from) there more than likely was a being that had the position Jean has, and after the cycle started again, the Phoenix Force connected to it's genetic avatar in this creation, which happened to be Jean Grey.
Remember, the process is cyclical.
Jean has not always existed. There were creations made and destroyed before her, and there will be creations made and destroyed after her, and some being from that creation will evolve into the mantle of the Phoenix in it and carry out the role.
It does not somehow diminish how powerful they (the Abstracts) are, or their purpose in existence. Jean simply evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's power of creator and destroyer of creation, while some other being evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's power of protection of this creation (Living Tribunal), and some other being evolves into the role of "avatar" of TOAA's substance of creation (Eternity), etc., etc.
Avatar, meaning incarnation, or physical manifestation, of God(s) [plural; Hindu], or an aspect of God.
*-embodiment: a new personification of a familiar idea; "the embodiment of hope"; "the incarnation of evil"; "the very avatar of cunning"
*-the manifestation of a Hindu deity (especially Vishnu) in human or superhuman or animal form; "the Buddha is considered an avatar of the god Vishnu"
(Online dictionaries rock. And avatar has way too many definitions nowadays).
With that said, I really hope Cyclops doesn't evolve into the Living Tribunal of the next creation. Having a supreme overseer that's always crying over Jean would suck.
Storm becoming Eternity would be cool, though.
Imagine living inside Halle Berry... 😄
(Sorry, dirty joke)
Still end of day, PF=Holy Spirit, Lt=Jesus TOAA=God. PF is not stronger then LT because it cannot destroy LT because (god,father,TOAA) won't allow it. Same as LT cannot erase it from existence because of TOAA. It is crappy that x writers get to crap all over tryin to make PF move popular/powerful, FF4/silversurfer/warlock writers should have made a storyline to promote LT powers back to the top.
Originally posted by Cosmic FlameThere is no 'aspect' of LT. LT is one entity, unlike Eternity and the other abstracts, which appear as alternate selves in other universes. So in summary, LT was destroyed.
IMO, there's a reason it's called Heart of the Universe. Thanos referred repeatedly to HIS REALITY, HIS UNIVERSE, etc. It's not power absolute across the multiversal spectrum. If so, Adam Warlock would not have appeared like he did. There was an ASPECT of the LT present, just as when there are issues elsewhere an ASPECT of the LT appears. There's nothing to suggest that the LT was completely destroyed.
Originally posted by XplosiveNo, LT was not kneeling before the Phoenix...he and the abstracts were kneeling before the Stranger (note the cape). Don't be quick to take the pic out of context.
True for abstracts, but you wouldnt see Phoenix kneeling to LT. They showed Phoenix is beyond LT.
Originally posted by illadelph12I believe the logical explanation behind the 'Heart' is that 'The End' was not canon.
Maybe I need to read it again. I thought the device was the 'Heart', but it could be that the device simply allowed access to the power which was actually the 'Heart'.Would that make the Heart another aspect?
Starlin certainly presented it as canon...but perhaps it wasn't meant to be...hence a plausible theory for Starlin's fallout with Marvel.