Superman vs. Hulk

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Unless, of course, the Beyonder has infinite power. Which he does (or did at the time, this was pre-retcon.)

You misunderstand. Hulk's strength is never equal to infinity. Not even when Mindless. If that were the case, everything he touched would explode. It increases towards infinity as Banner loses more and more control. That does NOT mean that when Banner has NO control, Hulk's strength is equal to infinity. It means that his strength will be totally unrestrained, increasing as needed, towards infinty without stopping. Apparently, his strength surpassed Onslaught's level of durability with the final blow.

Hulk's strength basically increases as required. There is no rate at which he grows stronger. If he needs to lift something, if it's liftable, he will lift it. If he needs to break something, and it's breakable, he will break it. He's always strong enough to do whatever is necessary. When Mindless, he doesn't have to get angrier to lift any amount of weight because his power is unrestrained. Not in the sense that everything he touches breaks. More in the sense that if he needs to exhibit an uber-amount of strength, he can. Much like Champion uses the Infinity Power Gem. He has infinite strength, but you never see him written KOing everyone in one punch.

So, Superman's stress triggering greater sunlight absorption makes strength a moot point? I beg to differ. We've never seen a dramatic increase in Superman's power simply because he becomes stressed. He wouldn't be able to match the geometric strength increases that the Hulk can undergo.

If you're asking if Hulk can get angry, at the spur of a moment, and be able to go from lifting, 1,000,000 tons to lifting 10x10^48902350 tons, the answer is yes. He has proven that he can.

If Beyonder was retconned into not having infinite strength (which is the cases, since he's just a, well, Cosmic Cube 😄), then Hulk's "infinite" self capped out at cosmic cube level.

If MINDLESS Hulk can truly become as strong as he wants to in an instant, then yes, I'd say is capable of becoming stronger than Superman at a faster rate than Superman can compensate. The problem is that the link between Banner and Hulk is affected by anger level,so it's still a progressive increase in strength based upon rage. That would also mean that there would have to be a clear transmission of control from Banner to Hulk. That wasn't present when he destroyed the super asteroid, it wasn't present when he braced the mountain, and he couldn't have reached Banner-less levels of Hulk strength just from Spider-Man egging him on. It doesn't make sense given that he was much angrier and more Banner-less at many other times and didn't display that strength level. It still doesn't add up. Hulk was bracing a mountain and talking like he was totally calm and had the same personality. If what you're saying is true, then Hulk would have lost the ability to talk the way he did in Secret Wars - he would have been Savage, or even Mindless. He wasn't. So what's up?

According to when The Atom entered Superman, he said Superman's cells are tiny stars.

Originally posted by Juntai
According to when The Atom entered Superman, he said Superman's cells are tiny stars.

Meaning...

Originally posted by demigawd
If Beyonder was retconned into not having infinite strength (which is the cases, since he's just a, well, Cosmic Cube 😄), then Hulk's "infinite" self capped out at cosmic cube level.

If MINDLESS Hulk can truly become as strong as he wants to in an instant, then yes, I'd say is capable of becoming stronger than Superman at a faster rate than Superman can compensate. The problem is that the link between Banner and Hulk is affected by anger level,so it's still a progressive increase in strength based upon rage. That would also mean that there would have to be a clear transmission of control from Banner to Hulk. That wasn't present when he destroyed the super asteroid, it wasn't present when he braced the mountain, and he couldn't have reached Banner-less levels of Hulk strength just from Spider-Man egging him on. It doesn't make sense given that he was much angrier and more Banner-less at many other times and didn't display that strength level. It still doesn't add up. Hulk was bracing a mountain and talking like he was totally calm and had the same personality. If what you're saying is true, then Hulk would have lost the ability to talk the way he did in Secret Wars - he would have been Savage, or even Mindless. He wasn't. So what's up?

Savage Hulk can reach Banner-less levels of strength. Banner's persona is barely present in Savage Hulk. Mindless Hulk can do exactly what you say he can, without being aggravated. Savage Hulk can do the same, but it requires minor annoyances, such as Spiderman egging him on.

Go figure on the Grey Hulk feat. 😄

I'm not 100% sure about the Hulk in the Onslaught Saga. He may not have been Mindless, now that I think of it...

You're right. That wasn't Mindless Hulk in the Onslaught Saga. Mindless Hulk can't talk. Banner had been supressed, not removed.

That's a really pissed Savage Hulk.

Gotta go. Nice debating you demi! 😉

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Meta-protien? 🤨

Yeah, meta-protein.

That's how Supes powers work.

His body absorbs solar energy emissions (not just light) and creates a super protein from the energy (like atp), and as his body metabolizes this protein compound, the released bi-product is his energy rententive bio matrix forcefield.

You didn't know that?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Savage Hulk can reach Banner-less levels of strength. Banner's persona is barely present in Savage Hulk. Mindless Hulk can do exactly what you say he can, without being aggravated. Savage Hulk can do the same, but it requires minor annoyances, such as Spiderman egging him on.

Go figure on the Grey Hulk feat. 😄

I'm not 100% sure about the Hulk in the Onslaught Saga. He may not have been Mindless, now that I think of it...

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Yes, I agree....Savage Hulk CAN reach Banner-less levels of strength....if he gets angry enough. That anger is progressive. In a fight against Superman, Hulk would only get so angry....Superman isn't raping Betty. However, Superman's stress levels would continue to empower him until HE got stronger while Hulk plateaus. Hulk reached "mindless" levels of strength only at a certain anger level. That only happens when something makes him that angry. In theory, Hulk's emotional connection with others is such that nothing would make him angrier than something happeningto Betty. Fighting Superman would make his strength level increase far short of that. On the other hand, it's not a specific emotional state that causes Superman's strength level to grow....it's stress of any kind.

So while Hulk would max out after awhile just because there's no reason for him to get THAT angry when fighting Superman (a la his one hour battle with Thor), Superman's strength would continue because with more exertion, comes more stress, comes more strength.

I see it like this:

Superman's base is higher than Calm Hulk's.
Angry Hulk's level is higher than Superman's base.
Angry Hulk's strength level increases with rage PROGRESSIVELY towards Mindless Hulk levels - but the practical limitation is - just how angry would he get fighting Superman?
Stressed Superman's levels starts only slightly higher than Superman's base, which is still lower than Angry Hulk's
Stressed Superman's levels will eventually catch an Angry Hulk's level, because Angry Hulk has nothing to get angriER about.
Stressed Superman's levels will then exceed Angry Hulk's levels.
If something makes Angry Hulk angriER, then it jumps ahead again, until Superman's stressed levels catch up.
We don't have an algorithm to determine just how fast Savage Hulk's strength progresses towards Mindless Hulk based on rage, just as we don't have one to determine how fast Superman's strength increases with stress. We just know that what we think is their max....really isn't.

So overall, it seems to come down to what outside factors exist in the fight. But my original point was - and still is - that the new establishment of Superman's dynamic strength makes who's stronger a moot point in any battle between the two. Hulk no longer can safely say he has that advantage.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Gotta go. Nice debating you demi! 😉

Same here! The Undead Tribunal are always my favorite opponents. Now to go Trick or Treating.

Later ya'll....

The Hulk's no pushover but Superman would still win.Also,the Hulk can breathe in space.

I'm gone too, but in leaving let me address Demigod. I saw where you put him plateauing off in the fight against Supes. Wouldn't happen. Hulk would get irritated as he keeps hitting little man in underwear that won't stay down. He doesn't have to be crazed to get enormously powerful. Just aggravated. But his strength comes in bursts, not gradually.

Superman

Hulk

only way Superman loses is if he decides to fight like a human with no speed.

Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Yes, I agree....Savage Hulk CAN reach Banner-less levels of strength....if he gets angry enough. That anger is progressive. In a fight against Superman, Hulk would only get so angry....Superman isn't raping Betty. However, Superman's stress levels would continue to empower him until HE got stronger while Hulk plateaus. Hulk reached "mindless" levels of strength only at a certain anger level. That only happens when something makes him that angry. In theory, Hulk's emotional connection with others is such that nothing would make him angrier than something happeningto Betty. Fighting Superman would make his strength level increase far short of that. On the other hand, it's not a specific emotional state that causes Superman's strength level to grow....it's stress of any kind.

So while Hulk would max out after awhile just because there's no reason for him to get THAT angry when fighting Superman (a la his one hour battle with Thor), Superman's strength would continue because with more exertion, comes more stress, comes more strength.

I see it like this:

Superman's base is higher than Calm Hulk's.
Angry Hulk's level is higher than Superman's base.
Angry Hulk's strength level increases with rage PROGRESSIVELY towards Mindless Hulk levels - but the practical limitation is - just how angry would he get fighting Superman?
Stressed Superman's levels starts only slightly higher than Superman's base, which is still lower than Angry Hulk's
Stressed Superman's levels will eventually catch an Angry Hulk's level, because Angry Hulk has nothing to get angriER about.
Stressed Superman's levels will then exceed Angry Hulk's levels.
If something makes Angry Hulk angriER, then it jumps ahead again, until Superman's stressed levels catch up.
We don't have an algorithm to determine just how fast Savage Hulk's strength progresses towards Mindless Hulk based on rage, just as we don't have one to determine how fast Superman's strength increases with stress. We just know that what we think is their max....really isn't.

So overall, it seems to come down to what outside factors exist in the fight. But my original point was - and still is - that the new establishment of Superman's dynamic strength makes who's stronger a moot point in any battle between the two. Hulk no longer can safely say he has that advantage.

Same here! The Undead Tribunal are always my favorite opponents. Now to go Trick or Treating.

Later ya'll....

That's the thing: Hulk doesn't "plateau." If Hulk is angry, his strength doesn't stop increasing. His strength would continue to rise in bursts as they are required. Hulk's strength increases are NOT gradual. The closer Hulk is to being mindless, the more easily the bursts occur.

Another thing. Anger alone doesn't cause Hulk to become stronger. Fear can cause Banner's personality to subcumb. This brawl would be quite a bit different that Hulk and Thor's arm-lock. Heck, I think getting pounded on by Superman would make him pretty angry. Stress, essentially, is the thing that causes him to become stronger.

Superman is stronger than most of the Banner-dominated Hulk's. Superman's about even with Savage Hulk, even at Savage Hulk's "base" (neither of which can really be quantified.)

It can most certainly be concluded that Hulk has the advantage of strength for several irrefutable reasons.

1. Hulk has a source of infinite power within himself. Superman does not have a source of infintite power (the Sun isn't one,) so even if he has limitless capacity for solar energy, he doesn't have a limitless supply. Even if Superman absorbed every joule of solar energy in the universe, Hulk could still become stronger than him. It's limited vs. limitless.

2. Hulk's strength does not increase gradually. Superman's does. While Superman's gradually growing stronger and stronger from absorbing sunlight, Hulk could flip out and become as strong as Superman would be if he had absorbed every ounce of energy the sun had produced since it's birth, or even stronger. As strong as he needs to be.

3. Hulk has proven time and time again that he's "The Strongest One There Is." Overall, he's got greater feats of strength than just about every other superhero.

One way or another, there is a limit to how strong Superman can become, no matter how ridiculously lofty or god-like that limit might be. His strength, no matter how much is increases, it is ultimately limited.

Strength is the only advantage Hulk has in this fight. Mind you all of this is purely hypothetical. At his best, Superman could fight so fast that Hulk wouldn't even know there was a fight.

The only way Hulk could win this fight is if Superman fought at normal speeds. Banner-dominated incarnations don't stand a chance. But, if the said Hulk is a very angry Savage Hulk, or a Mindless Hulk, the best Supes could hope for is a stalemate.

When has Superman failed to lift something?

Originally posted by Superherovandal
only way Superman loses is if he decides to fight like a human with no speed.

Exactly. Or if he toyed with Hulk for too long, like he did against Doomsday. Underestimating people can be Superman's downfall.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
When has Superman failed to lift something?

I can't recall any occasions. However, that does not mean that his strength is limitless.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I can't recall any occasions. However, that does not mean that his strength is limitless.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
But on the other hand its not fair to say it does either.

That's the thing snoop. Hulk has proven that he has limitless strength, and not just by succeeding in lifting everything he's ever tried to lift. There are plenty of people who have done that.

I wouldn't say that the Hulk had limitless strength if he never showed it, or I couldn't prove it.

How exactly do you prove you have limitless strength?