Superman vs. Hulk

Originally posted by illadelph12
Here:

http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/superman/superman.html

Look there.

I'd post some of the other sites that mention this, but it's not really necessary (and I'm at work).

I thought it was common knowledge that John Byrne's Post Crisis Supes power's were based on the fact he metabolized sunlight. Every bio I've read mentions it. He's not just "solar powered", it's part of his being genetically engineered. It was an advance of Kryptonian science that specially engineered cells absorb and metabolize solar energy into a special protein compound as sustinance. It was basically DC's attempt at trying to give a scientific explanation for his abilities. If it's changed since 94, it's news to me.

Now, as for a comic reference where someone said "Damn, the effects of Superman's meta-protein is incredible", no, I haven't read that. It's a common theme that most characters don't know how Supes powers work. That's why I'm going by the bio.

Unless I missed yet another retcon, that's how Supes powers work.

Triumph knew pretty well how Superman's powers worked, if not, he knows what's inside of him. When Triumph drained him, he absorbed solar energy directly from of Superman's cells, not Solar ATP. In order to make a meta-protien molecule, Superman would need to eat, and drink, in order to create the monomers that make up this meta-protien. But that isn't the case. Superman is sustained solely by the sun.

Besides, even if Superman did metabolize sunlight into Solar ATP, he wouldn't store it in his body as Solar ATP. ATP isn't stored. Food particles float through the bloodstream, and they are actively transported into cells as they are needed. There, via a process called cellular respiration, the food is broken down to make ATP, the energy currency of cells. If Superman gets energy directly from the sun, there would be no need for Solar ATP. The stored photons would be the "ATP."

Another thing: If Superman is superpowered because of genetic engineering, why is it that other Kryptonians who are exposed to yellow sunlight gain similar powers?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Triumph knew pretty well how Superman's powers worked, if not, he knows what's inside of him. When Triumph drained him, he absorbed solar energy directly from of Superman's cells, not Solar ATP. In order to make a meta-protien molecule, Superman would need to eat, and drink, in order to create the monomers that make up this meta-protien. But that isn't the case. Superman is sustained solely by the sun.

Besides, even if Superman did metabolize sunlight into Solar ATP, he wouldn't store it in his body as Solar ATP. ATP isn't stored. Food particles float through the bloodstream, and they are actively transported into cells as they are needed. There, via a process called cellular respiration, the food is broken down to make ATP, the energy currency of cells. If Superman gets energy directly from the sun, there would be no need for Solar ATP. The stored photons would be the "ATP."

Another thing: If Superman is superpowered because of genetic engineering, why is it that other Kryptonians who are exposed to yellow sunlight gain similar powers?

😆

They are all upgraded by genetic engineering, not simply Kal El, CC.

But for some reason, I think you know that.

I find it funny that you are trying to back me into a corner to defend comic book science against real world science. Comic science and literal science don't at all times go hand in hand, as I'm sure you know. Like how an organism that doesn't require intake of food or water would be able to keep cellular hydration by consuming nothing but solar energy.

I can't explain that.

Can you?

From what I've read, Supes body (and all Kryptonians, for that matter) are engineered with specialized cells that metabolize sunlight and other solar EM emissions, and in turn, turn this energy into a protein compound.

Now, you said before:

A protein is a molecule, composed of atoms. Light isn't matter, hence, it can't be formed into a molecule. It's been shown quite a few times throughout his comics that Superman stores solar energy in his cells.

From your other posts, I'm assuming you have some grasp of physics, so you'd know that it's theorized that all matter is simply condensed potential energy that can be returned to it's base properties by a chemical reaction, acceleration (e=MC2), or other means (in comic reference, how Galactus is able to eat planets by transmuting matter into energy and absorbing it).

These specialized cells, presumably, transmute solar energy into a dense protein compound which, as a Kryptonians body metabolizes it, emits an energy retentive bio energy field, their bio matrix.

Now as for Triumph absorbing solar energy out of his cells, being that I'm not a DC writer, I can't account for their inconsistency. Maybe they have an explanation. Supes at one time did have to eat an drink, which somehow gradually changed without any rational explanation, maybe they can explain how his body retains cellular cohesion and hydration without replenishing any liquids. He does have blood and saliva, so he must get liquids from somewhere.

The Sun?

I apologize in advance for any grammatical errors. Hangovers do that....

I agree that Hulk's strength can increase in spurts, which is what I said in my analogy, but it also plateaus until something else makes him angry. I contend that there are set levels of strength that correspond to an anger level. That means that for a given level of anger, you can measure how strong he is. In order to reach that level of strength, he'd have to reach that level of anger. Hulk can get to that level of anger either quickly (rape Betty) or in spurts (smack him around and talk trash), or slowly (frustrate him by not going down). There's no set way for it to increase.

We've seen him extremely angry at Abomination when he thought Abomination killed Betty, and he beat the heck out of him....but even then, his strength level was somewhat higher, but hardly approaching "infinite" levels that would exceed anything Superman is capable of matching. That suggests two components:

1)His level of anger
2)Which version of Hulk

Hulk doesn't switch versions as he gets angrier - it's a more complex psychological process. If we're going with Savage Hulk, we know his strength levels as they correspond to levels of rage. We know that after an hour, he couldn't grow stronger than Thor. So we can conclude from that that in standard battle, with no personal stakes, that Hulk's anger level WILL plateau. Otherwise he would have surpassed Thor.

In another extended battle with Thor, Thor began to wear down, and Hulk said that he's stronger than ever - but even then, the difference in strength, given Thor's downward slide and Hulk's upward slide, wasn't that great - Hulk still failed to dominate.

These two battles suggest again - that Hulk's strength in a battle without personal stakes is only going to get him so angry, and then he'll plateau. Remember how anger works - it's temporary, which actually means that Hulk will suddenly strengthen AND weaken in spurts as he calms down and gets riled up. But in no case will he continually get angrier and angrier - he'll just reach the same level of anger, then ease off, then reach it again, or slightly higher.

Superman, on the other hand, doesn't give back the extra energy he absorbs with his stress. Why do you think it was that he suddenly became more powerful than Doomsday, when Doomsday was the one to evolve? Because the amount of stress he was under in his dying effort against Doomsday ended up absorbing so much solar energy that he became incredibly powerful. Remember the long-haired Superman after the resurrection? Remember how much more powerful he was? That's why.

Remember his recent rematch with Doomsday? Where he toyed with him? That suggests that his stress power increase actually outpaced the evolutionary power of Doomsday. That's an amazing powerup.

So my point remains that while Hulk's strength increases in fits and starts, and actually decreases when not actively enraged, Superman's increases steadily with stress output - and that energy is retained. At the end of an hour long battle, barring extenuating circumstances that hyper-agitate the Hulk, I have every reason to believe that Superman would be the stronger of the two.

Originally posted by demigawd
I apologize in advance for any grammatical errors. Hangovers do that....

😆

The man (monster) who can move mountains v the man who can move planets,,,, not to mention inteligence, laser vision, ice breath, speed etc

isn´t it obvious

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That's the thing: Hulk doesn't "plateau." If Hulk is angry, his strength doesn't stop increasing. His strength would continue to rise in bursts as they are required. Hulk's strength increases are NOT gradual. The closer Hulk is to being mindless, the more easily the bursts occur.

And that's where I disagree. If he's not getting angrier, he's not getting stronger. Remember - his whole mantra is, "the angrier the Hulk gets, the stronger he gets", not, "Hulk, once angry, becomes as strong as required". He'd have to get angrier to reach the next level of strength. That increase can come in a spurt if something makes him VERY angry ("look, I'm killing Betty"😉, it can come in a fair bit ("haha, you ain't nothin. You hit like a girl!"😉, or it can come slowly, (with frustration, when Hulk can't put a guy down, no matter how hard he tries). We've seen his feats at each level, and we know his strength levels for a given situation. The first level of strength is usually against villains he has a personal issue with. The second and third are reserved for the likes of Thor, and, presumably Superman (barring him being tricked into thinking they killed his mama).

Another thing. Anger alone doesn't cause Hulk to become stronger. Fear can cause Banner's personality to subcumb. This brawl would be quite a bit different that Hulk and Thor's arm-lock. Heck, I think getting pounded on by Superman would make him pretty angry. Stress, essentially, is the thing that causes him to become stronger.

There's a difference between what causes Banner to turn into Hulk and what makes Hulk stronger. It's very specifically anger. Hulk got laid in Defenders last month, which generates stress (of a good kind), he didn't get stronger....he turned back into Banner.

In a brawl against Thor, Hulk got stronger, but Thor got weaker, and even then, the battle was competitive - that suggests that Hulk's strength increases *progressively* even after a lengthy battle against a trash-talking Asgardian COMBINED with strength *decreases* by Thor still doesn't make a huge difference. Superman doesn't get weaker.

It can most certainly be concluded that Hulk has the advantage of strength for several irrefutable reasons.

1. Hulk has a source of infinite power within himself. Superman does not have a source of infintite power (the Sun isn't one,) so even if he has limitless capacity for solar energy, he doesn't have a limitless supply. Even if Superman absorbed every joule of solar energy in the universe, Hulk could still become stronger than him. It's limited vs. limitless.

I don't agree with that because I don't agree that Hulk's power source within himself is limitless. Hulk is a being of finite size and mass - what's powering his increase in strength? It requires energy - Hulk still needs to breathe, he needs to eat - he's humanoid. If he had infinite power, none of that would be necessary. It is.

Additionally, it's not the specifically the sun - it's yellow solar radiation. And solar radiation isn't the energy itself - it's the catalyst. Your analogy is inaccurate. Solar radiation is the "rage" that catalyzes the Meta ATP (which I mentioned on this thread before anybody else did, by the way). The absorption capacity of Meta ATP is limitless. Rage, on the other hand, is not.

2. Hulk's strength does not increase gradually. Superman's does. While Superman's gradually growing stronger and stronger from absorbing sunlight, Hulk could flip out and become as strong as Superman would be if he had absorbed every ounce of energy the sun had produced since it's birth, or even stronger. As strong as he needs to be.

Again, I disagree. Making that conclusion violates the very principle of "Angrier Hulk gets, stronger Hulk gets" - Hulk's anger levels simply wouldn't reach that level against Superman.

3. Hulk has proven time and time again that he's "The Strongest One There Is." Overall, he's got greater feats of strength than just about every other superhero.

He has a single feat of strength greater than any theoretical feat of strength ever, yes. But I would contend that Superman has MORE awesome feats of strength. But that's not really the point since we're delving into theoretical territory that would require them both to be at levels greater than they've yet reached. Superman's stress absorption thing has only happened within a few months. So, the jury is out on how that affects his feats in the future. But I accept that the best Superman could hope for is a tie in the feats department since you can't best "infinite". Whatever. lol.

Originally posted by illadelph12
😆

Did I write all of that ok? Looking at his screen hurts, hahaha.

No music will be produced in my studio today....

It's all ledgible, if that's what you mean. 😆

Nah, but seriously, that was a cohesive post.

And don't worry about not getting any work done. I'm supposed to be reporting special assessment taxes for the Palo Verde Irrigation District here in California and I've spent my last 2 hours on this damn board arguing science fiction.

"Multi-tasking". 😆

banner ahs changed into hulk when he has been very afraid in the past. the source from which hulk DRAWS his strength is infinite. obviously he won't reach infinite strength. this does imply that he has potential to get continually stronger without limit. it doesn't require 'energy' to increase, it requires emotion. hulk and banner are different. even if you believe banner can't reach infinite levels of emotion, there is no reason to believe hulk cannot. hulk is not 'human'. physical laws need not apply to him in all ways as they do to humans. early on he repeatedly continued to strike pre-c supes, getting more and more frustrated when he couldn't move him -- his strength continued to grow until he WOULD have moved him though NOTHING was said to be able to move supes.

Originally posted by demigawd
I apologize in advance for any grammatical errors. Hangovers do that....

I agree that Hulk's strength can increase in spurts, which is what I said in my analogy, but it also plateaus until something else makes him angry. I contend that there are set levels of strength that correspond to an anger level. That means that for a given level of anger, you can measure how strong he is. In order to reach that level of strength, he'd have to reach that level of anger. Hulk can get to that level of anger either quickly (rape Betty) or in spurts (smack him around and talk trash), or slowly (frustrate him by not going down). There's no set way for it to increase.

We've seen him extremely angry at Abomination when he thought Abomination killed Betty, and he beat the heck out of him....but even then, his strength level was somewhat higher, but hardly approaching "infinite" levels that would exceed anything Superman is capable of matching. That suggests two components:

1)His level of anger
2)Which version of Hulk

Hulk doesn't switch versions as he gets angrier - it's a more complex psychological process. If we're going with Savage Hulk, we know his strength levels as they correspond to levels of rage. We know that after an hour, he couldn't grow stronger than Thor. So we can conclude from that that in standard battle, with no personal stakes, that Hulk's anger level WILL plateau. Otherwise he would have surpassed Thor.

In another extended battle with Thor, Thor began to wear down, and Hulk said that he's stronger than ever - but even then, the difference in strength, given Thor's downward slide and Hulk's upward slide, wasn't that great - Hulk still failed to dominate.

These two battles suggest again - that Hulk's strength in a battle without personal stakes is only going to get him so angry, and then he'll plateau. Remember how anger works - it's temporary, which actually means that Hulk will suddenly strengthen AND weaken in spurts as he calms down and gets riled up. But in no case will he continually get angrier and angrier - he'll just reach the same level of anger, then ease off, then reach it again, or slightly higher.

Superman, on the other hand, doesn't give back the extra energy he absorbs with his stress. Why do you think it was that he suddenly became more powerful than Doomsday, when Doomsday was the one to evolve? Because the amount of stress he was under in his dying effort against Doomsday ended up absorbing so much solar energy that he became incredibly powerful. Remember the long-haired Superman after the resurrection? Remember how much more powerful he was? That's why.

Remember his recent rematch with Doomsday? Where he toyed with him? That suggests that his stress power increase actually outpaced the evolutionary power of Doomsday. That's an amazing powerup.

So my point remains that while Hulk's strength increases in fits and starts, and actually decreases when not actively enraged, Superman's increases steadily with stress output - and that energy is retained. At the end of an hour long battle, barring extenuating circumstances that hyper-agitate the Hulk, I have every reason to believe that Superman would be the stronger of the two.

Demi, you don't understand. He wouldn't plateau. Getting punched in the face by Superman would make Hulk angry. Hulk can get stronger by simply experiencing stress, be it mental or physical. That's right. Merely exerting himself can cause Hulk's strength to increase. Anger happens to be the most potent catalyst.

No, there is not a set level of strength for a certain level of anger. Anger is not a fuel. The angrier Hulk is, the less influence Banner has, and the more Hulk becomes like Mindless Hulk, the original conception. Remember, Mindless Hulk is becomes strong enough to lift whatever he needs to, a power given to him by young Bruce's imagination.

When the Abomination told Hulk he killed Betty, Hulk didn't kick his ass. He caved the Abomination's head in with ONE punch. Thor and Hulk's armlock isn't a great example. First off, it's one inconsistency in a plethora of fights that involve Hulk consistently growing MUCH stronger than Thor within moments. It seems that you are basing your entire argument around this one 'fight.'

There is no "set level of strength" for the more powerful incarnations. The difference is that Savage Hulk has to have stress (mental or physical,) to gain levels of strength Mindless Hulk can attain effortlessly. In essence, anything Mindless Hulk can lift, Savage Hulk can lift, with the exception that Savage Hulk needs some form of stress to allow him to attain the increase of strength necessary to lift something, while Mindless Hulk merely has to attempt to lift it.

Hulk does change incarnations as he gets angrier. Hulk can transform into Savage Hulk at any given time, because of anger levels limiting Banner's control over Hulk. That's why Bruce and Doc Sampson created The Professor Hulk persona. If Professor Hulk gets too angry, he has a psychic failsafe that causes him to transform into Savage Banner (Savage Hulk in Bruce's body,) instead of Savage Hulk. Savage Hulk can become Mindless Hulk because of anger, seperation from Banner, or external influence.

You're saying Hulk would calm down eventually as though Hulk were a rationally thinking human. He isn't. Why on Earth would Hulk calm down during a fight? He would be angry because Superman is punching him in the face. He would be angry that he couldn't hit Superman. Hulk would be angry at the very fact that Superman was present. He doesn't need a complex or personal reason to get angry. Anything could set him off. He has no control over his anger whatsoever.

Calming down is the only thing that weakens Hulk. As Hulk calms down, Banner regains control, hence the reason why Hulk reverts to Banner when calm. The more Banner is in control, the weaker Hulk is. A long fight isn't going make Banner want to take over. He relies on the Hulk to get him out of tough situations. For example, if Bruce knows that Hulk is in a harsh environment that he couldn't survive, he's not going to take over and put his life in danger. Hulk would stay angry, so both could survive.

Actually, Superman does expend solar energy as he fights. He would have to absorb sunlight to maintain his strength, moreso than to increase it. Superman was holding back all the while he was fighting Doomsday. In a last ditch effort to defeat him, he let loose against Doomsday in a desperate attempt to save the Earth. It cost him his life.

The fact remains that Superman does not have limitless potential for strength, while Hulk does. I've given valid, irrefutable reasoning and facts to support this argument. Hulk would not be calming down as the battle insued. To suggest such a thing is ridiculous, and totally ignorant of the Hulk's character. He would be getting angrier, and angrier, and stronger, and stronger with each progressive burst.

After an hour of fighting, Hulk would be much stronger than Superman.

Originally posted by demigawd
And that's where I disagree. If he's not getting angrier, he's not getting stronger. Remember - his whole mantra is, "the angrier the Hulk gets, the stronger he gets", not, "Hulk, once angry, becomes as strong as required". He'd have to get angrier to reach the next level of strength. That increase can come in a spurt if something makes him VERY angry ("look, I'm killing Betty"😉, it can come in a fair bit ("haha, you ain't nothin. You hit like a girl!"😉, or it can come slowly, (with frustration, when Hulk can't put a guy down, no matter how hard he tries). We've seen his feats at each level, and we know his strength levels for a given situation. The first level of strength is usually against villains he has a personal issue with. The second and third are reserved for the likes of Thor, and, presumably Superman (barring him being tricked into thinking they killed his mama).

There's a difference between what causes Banner to turn into Hulk and what makes Hulk stronger. It's very specifically anger. Hulk got laid in Defenders last month, which generates stress (of a good kind), he didn't get stronger....he turned back into Banner.

In a brawl against Thor, Hulk got stronger, but Thor got weaker, and even then, the battle was competitive - that suggests that Hulk's strength increases *progressively* even after a lengthy battle against a trash-talking Asgardian COMBINED with strength *decreases* by Thor still doesn't make a huge difference. Superman doesn't get weaker.

I don't agree with that because I don't agree that Hulk's power source within himself is limitless. Hulk is a being of finite size and mass - what's powering his increase in strength? It requires energy - Hulk still needs to breathe, he needs to eat - he's humanoid. If he had infinite power, none of that would be necessary. It is.

Additionally, it's not the specifically the sun - it's yellow solar radiation. And solar radiation isn't the energy itself - it's the catalyst. Your analogy is inaccurate. Solar radiation is the "rage" that catalyzes the Meta ATP (which I mentioned on this thread before anybody else did, by the way). The absorption capacity of Meta ATP is limitless. Rage, on the other hand, is not.

Again, I disagree. Making that conclusion violates the very principle of "Angrier Hulk gets, stronger Hulk gets" - Hulk's anger levels simply wouldn't reach that level against Superman.

He has a single feat of strength greater than any theoretical feat of strength ever, yes. But I would contend that Superman has MORE awesome feats of strength. But that's not really the point since we're delving into theoretical territory that would require them both to be at levels greater than they've yet reached. Superman's stress absorption thing has only happened within a few months. So, the jury is out on how that affects his feats in the future. But I accept that the best Superman could hope for is a tie in the feats department since you can't best "infinite". Whatever. lol.

Wrong, demi. Hulk doesn't need a certain "amount" of anger to reach a certain level of strength. Anger can't be quantified. Getting angrier causes Banners influence to fade, and more of Hulk's power to be released. Getting into the semantics of Hulk's catch phrase doesn't help your argument. They are the words of an imbecile. However, Stan Lee, (the guy who created Hulk,) provided an in depth summary of the source and nature of Hulk's power. Those are his words, not mine.

As Stan Lee said, Hulk was created by Bruce's mind to be an entity who would always be strong enough to defend he and his mother. That's the Hulk's power. The ability to become physically strong enough to do anything. Banner limits that ability. Anger reduces Banner's influence. That's the reason why "The madder Hulk gets the stronger Hulk gets."

There is no difference between what make Hulk stronger and what makes Banner transform. Both are a result of Banner losing control. Fear causes Hulk to become stronger. Eustress causes calmness; that would not make Hulk stronger. Stress makes Hulk stronger. "The more he exerts himself, the stronger he becomes!" - TTA #93. You've really got to read more Hulk comics, demi.

Hulk has an infinity of power within him, whether you agree with it, or not. It's explicitly stated by the Beyonder, and on so many other occasions in Hulk's comics. Saying that Hulk doesn't have potential for limitless strength is like saying Superman can't fly. Both are proven facts. Hulk has infinity of power to draw upon that manifests itself only in the forms of strength and durability.
The more Banner-influenced the incarnation of Hulk is, the more human-like it is. Mindless Hulk might be self sustained. It's impossible to tell.

Infinite rage is not necessary for limitless strength. Hulk demonstrated that when he exercised limitless strength while resisting the matter antimatter attraction. Superman having the potential for limitless strength is not a matter of how much sunlight he can absorb, but rather how much sunlight is available. He would need an infinite source of yellow sunlight to have limitless potential for strength. Problem is, there is no infinite source of yellow sunlight. In fact, there is less and less solar energy available for Superman to absorb as the universe approaches maximum enthropy.

Hulk's strength can increase to any given level at any given time. That's the reason why when Hulk gets angry, there's never been any weight he couldn't lift, or any force that he couldn't resist. Heck, Vector can blow away planets with his matter repulsion power. He couldn't stop the Hulk.

Superman has been around longer, but most of Superman's feats of strength are pre-crisis, and thus, out of continuity. Hulk has just as many feats of awesome strength, many of which rival Pre-crisis Superman's might. Superman doesn't have the opportunity to gain limitless strength, and even if he could, he would need billions of years to absorb that much sunlight, while Hulk only needs to be angry for a few seconds. Superman would never be able to resist the matter antimatter attraction, no matter how much sunlight he absorbs.

Simply put, Hulk is ultimately stronger than Superman.

"Superman would never be able to resist the matter antimatter attraction, no matter how much sunlight he absorbs."

"never" doesnt work in comics. Real physics dont apply either.

"Hulk has an infinity of power within him, whether you agree with it, or not. It's explicitly stated by the Beyonder, and on so many other occasions in Hulk's comics. Saying that Hulk doesn't have potential for limitless strength is like saying Superman can't fly. Both are proven facts."

And he needs rage to access to it. Altho that he has that potential its a fact yes.

"Wrong, demi. Hulk doesn't need a certain "amount" of anger to reach a certain level of strength. Anger can't be quantified"

Are you saying Grey Hulk can attain the Savage Hulk levels. Wouldnt that mean any Hulk with anger could reach any level.

Originally posted by olympian
"Superman would never be able to resist the matter antimatter attraction, no matter how much sunlight he absorbs."

"never" doesnt work in comics. Real physics dont apply either.

"Hulk has an infinity of power within him, whether you agree with it, or not. It's explicitly stated by the Beyonder, and on so many other occasions in Hulk's comics. Saying that Hulk doesn't have potential for limitless strength is like saying Superman can't fly. Both are proven facts."

And he needs rage to access to it. Altho that he has that potential its a fact yes.

"Wrong, demi. Hulk doesn't need a certain "amount" of anger to reach a certain level of strength. Anger can't be quantified"

Are you saying Grey Hulk can attain the Savage Hulk levels. Wouldnt that mean any Hulk with anger could reach any level.

If Superman gets limitless strength one day, he will be able to do it. Or, if he ever does it, it will prove without a doubt that his strength is limitless. But in the time being Superman's strength is limited only by the amount of sunlight he absorbs. Considering that there is a finite (and steadily decreasing) amount of yellow sunlight available, Superman's strength potential is finite. Moreover, Superman can only absorb so much sunlight at once, and it gradually increases his strength. I was simply explaining to demi why absorbing all the sunlight in the universe wouldn't give Superman limitless strength, and why he wouldn't be able to resist the matter-antimatter attraction.

The reason why Savage Hulk needs rage to tap his strength is because of Banner's influence limiting his power. Anger causes Banner to lose control, and causes Savage Hulk's strength to increase towards infinty.

No. Grey Hulk would not be able to lift as much as Mindless Hulk. He would have to transform into a stronger incarnation. Besides Mindless Hulk, the only Hulk that can tap into the Hulk's limitless potential is Savage Hulk. Neither Professor, Grey Hulk, nor Merged Hulk can attain limitless strength. He would have to have transformed into Savage Hulk to gain limitless potential for strength, because of the little influence Banner has in Savage Hulk's persona. All Hulks are not created equal. Apparently Grey Hulk can get hella strong, but not infinitely strong. He has his limits.

By the way, most of the time when I just say 'Hulk' I mean Savage Hulk.

Originally posted by leonidas
banner ahs changed into hulk when he has been very afraid in the past. the source from which hulk DRAWS his strength is infinite. obviously he won't reach infinite strength. this does imply that he has potential to get continually stronger without limit. it doesn't require 'energy' to increase, it requires emotion. hulk and banner are different. even if you believe banner can't reach infinite levels of emotion, there is no reason to believe hulk cannot. hulk is not 'human'. physical laws need not apply to him in all ways as they do to humans. early on he repeatedly continued to strike pre-c supes, getting more and more frustrated when he couldn't move him -- his strength continued to grow until he WOULD have moved him though NOTHING was said to be able to move supes.

Well, Superman isn't human either.

And I already said that there's a difference between Banner turning into Hulk and Hulk getting stronger.

Demi, you don't understand. He wouldn't plateau. Getting punched in the face by Superman would make Hulk angry. Hulk can get stronger by simply experiencing stress, be it mental or physical. That's right. Merely exerting himself can cause Hulk's strength to increase. Anger happens to be the most potent catalyst.

How did you draw that conclusion? The whole concept of Hulk is that *anger* is the one and only catalyst. Nothing ever said anything about stress. If that were the case, he would have been able to break Magneto's magnetic bond over him with stress in Defenders. He couldn't. He couldn't get ANGRY enough. Frustrated, but not angry. Stressed because something bad was going to happen to the world, but not angry enough.

No, there is not a set level of strength for a certain level of anger. Anger is not a fuel. The angrier Hulk is, the less influence Banner has, and the more Hulk becomes like Mindless Hulk, the original conception. Remember, Mindless Hulk is becomes strong enough to lift whatever he needs to, a power given to him by young Bruce's imagination.

But when Mindless Hulk appeared as a result of anger? It's a theoretical working towards of an end state being Mindless Hulk. It takes an incredible amount of anger for it to be reached. It wasn't reached even when he found out Betty was killed by Abomination. So whatever it takes, it takes more than that.

What you're saying is that "No, there is not a set level of strength for a certain level of anger. Anger is not a fuel."

But then you said "he angrier Hulk is, the less influence Banner has, and the more Hulk becomes like Mindless Hulk, the original conception. Remember, Mindless Hulk is becomes strong enough to lift whatever he needs to, a power given to him by young Bruce's imagination."

But those two statements can't co-exist. Otherwise, what's the point of Banner's decreasing influence yielding any effects? Clearly, the angrier Hulk is, the stronger he becomes because he progresses towards a more mindless state. which means that there are indeed strength levels inbetween Hulk's current state and his Mindless state. That's canon. And those strength levels correspond to how angry he is. That's also canon. Which means that he'd have to reach a certain state of anger to reach, for example 70% of Mindless Hulk state,, and even angrier than that to reach 90% of Mindless Hulk state, etc. Either way, that shows a link between anger and a specific state of strength towards his final state of strength - Mindless Hulk and this "infinite" power.

When the Abomination told Hulk he killed Betty, Hulk didn't kick his ass. He caved the Abomination's head in with ONE punch.

No he didn't. He beat on Abomination for a minute straight. Sixty straight seconds of unanswered shots. Abomination begged for mercy - THEN Hulk caved his head in.

A point to note is that he wasn't Mindless Hulk there, either. So even with that, he hadn't reached a Mindless state. Which means that it takes even more anger than fighting the person responsible for Betty's death to get him to his infinite strength phase.

Thor and Hulk's armlock isn't a great example. First off, it's one inconsistency in a plethora of fights that involve Hulk consistently growing MUCH stronger than Thor within moments. It seems that you are basing your entire argument around this one 'fight.'

As a counterpoint to you basing his entire concept of infinite strength on a single feat that doesn't make sense even given your explanations. Hulk wasn't Mindless when he performed that feat.

If you can give an example of Hulk instantly reaching an "infintite" state of strength, then I can give an example of Hulk being unable to increase his strength significantly after an hour long battle. 😛

There is no "set level of strength" for the more powerful incarnations. The difference is that Savage Hulk has to have stress (mental or physical,) to gain levels of strength Mindless Hulk can attain effortlessly. In essence, anything Mindless Hulk can lift, Savage Hulk can lift, with the exception that Savage Hulk needs some form of stress to allow him to attain the increase of strength necessary to lift something, while Mindless Hulk merely has to attempt to lift it.

But you said that every Hulk's rage is on a bell curve culminating towards Mindless Hulk strength levels, because Banner loses more and more control. That means "Infinite" Savage Hulk is really Mindless Hulk.

Hulk does change incarnations as he gets angrier. Hulk can transform into Savage Hulk at any given time, because of anger levels limiting Banner's control over Hulk. That's why Bruce and Doc Sampson created The Professor Hulk persona. If Professor Hulk gets too angry, he has a psychic failsafe that causes him to transform into Savage Banner (Savage Hulk in Bruce's body,) instead of Savage Hulk. Savage Hulk can become Mindless Hulk because of anger, seperation from Banner, or external influence.

ok, so we're agreed here. But surely you must also agree that it's always taken an INCREDIBLE amount of anger to reach that Mindless state. Multiple fights with lots of opponents has never done it. That means he does indeed have a max strength level until he becomes mindless, which almost never happens. In fact, when has he become Mindless Hulk by sheer battle?

You're saying Hulk would calm down eventually as though Hulk were a rationally thinking human. He isn't. Why on Earth would Hulk calm down during a fight? He would be angry because Superman is punching him in the face. He would be angry that he couldn't hit Superman. Hulk would be angry at the very fact that Superman was present. He doesn't need a complex or personal reason to get angry. Anything could set him off. He has no control over his anger whatsoever.

Untrue - you said it yourself - Banner exerts an amount of influence on Hulk in every state but one. Hulk gets mad when he's agitated, he stays mad as long as he's agitated, he gets madDER when he's more agitated. That's why he flipped out when he found out Abom killed Betty. It was personal. That's why he doesn't become instantly mindless when he sees Thor, or even after battling Thor for a long time (not just that one example, but in all fights with Thor). But he has to be extremely agitated to reach that point of "infinite" strength. And that requires something extremely personal. It doesn't require reason to get mad and calm down. Two year old children get more upset seeing their mother die than seeing a stranger die. It's emotional, not rational. Same thing in a fight with Superman - he simply wouldn't reach the point of anger where his strength would be out of reach for Superman.

Calming down is the only thing that weakens Hulk. As Hulk calms down, Banner regains control, hence the reason why Hulk reverts to Banner when calm. The more Banner is in control, the weaker Hulk is.

And the opposite is true, too. Which means there are indeed levels of strength in between that become progressive. There are stages and degrees of rage. You agree here.

A long fight isn't going make Banner want to take over. He relies on the Hulk to get him out of tough situations. For example, if Bruce knows that Hulk is in a harsh environment that he couldn't survive, he's not going to take over and put his life in danger. Hulk would stay angry, so both could survive.

Hulk wouldn't get calm enough to revert to Banner in a fight. But Hulk comes up with battle strategies. Over some period of time, the adrenline kick he got fades, but jumps again with something agitating happening. He doesn't STAY at a rage level. That's not how fighting works, really. And even if it did, he wouldn't get madder with each hit. And even if it did, we don't know at what rate that corresponds to a strength increase and whether that's greater or less than Superman's dynamic strength increases.

Actually, Superman does expend solar energy as he fights. He would have to absorb sunlight to maintain his strength, moreso than to increase it. Superman was holding back all the while he was fighting Doomsday. In a last ditch effort to defeat him, he let loose against Doomsday in a desperate attempt to save the Earth. It cost him his life.

Yes, he died. And when he came back, he was able to totally own Doomsday. He's instantly healed from even kryptonite and red sun attacks. So he's obviously far more efficient with it - a big part of that is this retcon.

He would be getting angrier, and angrier, and stronger, and stronger with each progressive burst.

Yes, I agree that he'd get angrier and stronger, as I've said. But the rate of that increase is unknown, and we know that after long periods of time, he's been unable to reach the levels of strength that would exceed Superman's, because he wouldn't reach the appropriate levels of rage. You're essentially saying that "an hour of exchanging blows with Superman is equivalent of seeing Betty die at the hands of Superman", and I take severe issue with that. Over the course of a battle, you get frustrated and angrier when things aren't going your way, you get calmer when you believe you have the battle under control or that you're doing better. Hulk's strength would increase or decrease based on that. It's the basic principles of fighting, here, CC.

After an hour of fighting, Hulk would be much stronger than Superman.

I disagree. Hulk doesn't have enough at stake to have a strength level exceed a certain amount. Superman's strength level doesn't vary like that.

IT'S NOT only ANGER it's

adreneline that causes him to become hulk and then become stronger so it's not just anger, it could be stress, fear, fustration etc and of cause anger

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Wrong, demi. Hulk doesn't need a certain "amount" of anger to reach a certain level of strength. Anger can't be quantified. Getting angrier causes Banners influence to fade, and more of Hulk's power to be released. Getting into the semantics of Hulk's catch phrase doesn't help your argument. They are the words of an imbecile. However, Stan Lee, (the guy who created Hulk,) provided an in depth summary of the source and nature of Hulk's power. Those are his words, not mine.

Untrue - you can quantify anger. You've never been a little peeved, a lot peeved, and extremely pissed off? They're quantities of anger. And you can't go back and say that there's something wrong with Hulk's catchphrase, when you said in your last post that he does get stronger with more anger.

There is no difference between what make Hulk stronger and what makes Banner transform. Both are a result of Banner losing control. Fear causes Hulk to become stronger. Eustress causes calmness; that would not make Hulk stronger. Stress makes Hulk stronger. "The more he exerts himself, the stronger he becomes!" - TTA #93. You've really got to read more Hulk comics, demi.

But that defies his own appearances and counteracts what you said about him - if that were remotely true, then Hulk would turn into a far more savage state when exerting himself to lift the mountain in Secret Wars. He didn't lose control - that was more exertion than he'd ever had. So that's a clear contradiction. You don't see that???

Hulk has an infinity of power within him, whether you agree with it, or not. It's explicitly stated by the Beyonder, and on so many other occasions in Hulk's comics. Saying that Hulk doesn't have potential for limitless strength is like saying Superman can't fly. Both are proven facts. Hulk has infinity of power to draw upon that manifests itself only in the forms of strength and durability.

And the same holds true for Superman, so I don't see your point.

Infinite rage is not necessary for limitless strength. Hulk demonstrated that when he exercised limitless strength while resisting the matter antimatter attraction.

Which doesn't square with his other appearances because he's been angrier and more bestial than that and not had that level of strength. he wasn't Mindless. So that actually contradicts your contention that there's any connection between Banner's control and Hulk's strength - it contradicts everything about Hulk's history. And that's the problem with that feat.

Superman having the potential for limitless strength is not a matter of how much sunlight he can absorb, but rather how much sunlight is available. He would need an infinite source of yellow sunlight to have limitless potential for strength. Problem is, there is no infinite source of yellow sunlight. In fact, there is less and less solar energy available for Superman to absorb as the universe approaches maximum enthropy.

It's not simply sunlight, though. He absorbed energy from plants around him. He just needs a catalyst for his MATP, which has unlimited storage capacity.

Hulk's strength can increase to any given level at any given time. That's the reason why when Hulk gets angry, there's never been any weight he couldn't lift, or any force that he couldn't resist. Heck, Vector can blow away planets with his matter repulsion power. He couldn't stop the Hulk.

You just contradicted yourself again - you went on to talk about how as he gets angrier, he gets stronger. Now you say just by getting "angry"? Which is it?

Superman has been around longer, but most of Superman's feats of strength are pre-crisis, and thus, out of continuity. Hulk has just as many feats of awesome strength, many of which rival Pre-crisis Superman's might. Superman doesn't have the opportunity to gain limitless strength, and even if he could, he would need billions of years to absorb that much sunlight, while Hulk only needs to be angry for a few seconds. Superman would never be able to resist the matter antimatter attraction, no matter how much sunlight he absorbs.

I'm not talking about pre-crisis feats. I'm talking about post-crisis feats. As to whether he can resist the matter/anti-matter attraction....we won't know until it happens.

And to be frank, it shouldn't be possible. Infinite can't be greater than infinite - it creates a paradox that should destroy the universe.

Simply put, Hulk is ultimately stronger than Superman. [/B]

If what youre saying is true and Mindless Hulk is infinitely strong, which I don't agree with since his "infinite" feat was not Mindless, then yes, you can't top "infinitely strong" - but I don't believe that Mindless Hulk IS that strong.

ok, I cna't look at the screen anymore. Too bright. I have to go....

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
IT'S NOT only ANGER it's

adreneline that causes him to become hulk and then become stronger so it's not just anger, it could be stress, fear, fustration etc and of cause anger

That's even worse. Adrenline isn't infinite.

I'm curious, what is the significance of Superman not being human?

Savage Hulk resisting the matter antimatter attraction proves that he can gain an infinite amount of strength simply by Spiderman taunting him. Someone killing Betty would make Savage Hulk much angrier than someone calling him names, but it would not necessarily make him stronger than the latter. Heck, Mindless Hulk wouldn't even care if Betty died. He doesn't even know who she is. The only part of Hulk that cares about Betty is Banner. According to Stan Lee's explaination, the level of anger isn't what really determines the magnitude of Hulk's strength increase. It depends on what Hulk is trying to accomplish. He doesn't have to "stockpile" anger as so many believe he does. The madder Savage Hulk is, the easier it is for him to get a strength increase, because he's closer to his mindless state. Telling Hulk that he isn't strong enough to do something is the easiest way to make him become strong enough to do that particular thing. That's the reason he constantly reiterates that "Hulk is the strongest one there is!"

Yes there are levels of strength between Mindless and Savage Hulk. Savage Hulk can't lift any given weight at any given time, but if he gets angry about the fact that he can't lift it, and he attempts to lift it, he has consistantly shown that will succeed in lifting it. Yes, there are degrees of rage, but the level of anger is not proportional to the level of strength.

There's a difference between the levels of strength Hulk gains when he's trying to lift something heavy, and the bursts of strength that occur when Hulk is in battle. In a fight, Hulk's strength increases are controlled moreso by the subconscious. In a fight, when Savage Hulk flips out, and becomes stronger than his opponent. If that doesn't beat his opponent, Hulk will keep gaining strength in bursts until the fight ends. Even when Mindless, Hulk's strength is never equal to infinity.

I have the issue in which Hulk and th Abomination fight. They are fighting for some time, and towards the end of the fight, the Abomination mentions Betty's death. Hulk caves his head in in one blow.

After being ressurected, Superman was able to totally own Doomsday Rex, who was sentient, and much weaker than the Doomsday who had killed him.

Getting the crap beat out of him is at stake. If Savage Hulk is really pissed off, every time he thinks about how much of a hard time he is having defeating Superman, and how "Puny Cape Man thinks he is stronger than Hulk," he would gain a strength increase. He would continue gaining strength in geometric increases as the fight continued, until the fight somehow ended, or he calmed down. That would ultimately result in Hulk's strength dwarving Superman's. Superman's strength, on the other hand, would fluctuate as he exerts himself and absorbs solar energy.

Hulk said Banner was keeping the Hulk in check when he was fighting Abomination after he found out he killed Betty...otherwise he would have knocked the Earth off its orbit.