Originally posted by demigawd
I never said Hulk was weaker than Thor. I said that Hulk was unable to become stronger than Thor after an hour. So much for infinite strength.I also didn't say do a mathematical average, smartass, lol. I said the truth is likely somewhere in between. I'd say that his inability to become stronger than Thor mitigates the matter/anti-matter attraction the way Spider-Man being Firelord is trumped by Spider-Man losing to Wolverine.
Hulk had to beg Thor to put his hammer away. Too bad he couldn't become strong enough to overcome it, huh?
Yeah, you know, I realized that after I posted it. I forgot that there's a mass calculator for blackholes. Small blackholes weigh only a few thousand million tonnes. 😂
Either way, I've provided references that state the retcon that Superman now has dynamic strength and it's infinite. So to me, strength is a moot issue between them.
I get it. So the lesser feat is likely his true ability?
Who knows why Hulk was unable to overcome Thor? Usually when Hulk is getting a lot angrier, the narration comments on it.
Out of the tons of fights in which Hulk has totally physically dominated Thor, you choose the one inconsistency by which to gauge his power. That's a bit unfair, no?
Mjolnir is uber-powerful, and it has limitless reserves of magical energy in it. It gives Thor hella versatility and it is the main reason why he's so bad-ass. Hulk begging Thor to get rid of Mjolnir doesn't mean that he's weak. It means that he's getting his ass punished by Mjolnir. I don't quite follow you.
The difference is, you can attempt to show others saying that Superman has infinite potential for strength. I can show you Hulk proving that he has infinite potential for strength, and show him performing feats that exceed what Superman has performed. I know you're not a fanboy. Is it so hard to admit that Hulk is the stronger of the two?
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Superman's solar energy storage is a biological process. Unless Superman has an infinite number of cells in his body, how can he absorb infinite amounts of solar energy?
He cant, nor can he ever experience a situation where he could be exposed to infinite solar energy considering he has limited surface area to his body and light travels in vectors.
Originally posted by Wynndar
He cant, nor can he ever experience a situation where he could be exposed to infinite solar energy considering he has limited surface area to his body and light travels in vectors.
Well said.
I think Superman is powerful enough without infinite strength, anyway.
I mean, limitless strength is the Hulk's only ability, (along with potentially limitless durability*,) and even with that, he can't beat Superman going all out.
Originally posted by Wynndar
The idea of Superman's infinite strength is more like an article of faith to DC readers...not something that remotely resembles coherence.
Not at all true. I'm not even a DC fan - anybody who knows my track record on debates will attest to that. I'm just stating what was stated on several occasions since the Loeb era in 2000 - he has dynamic strength and infinite potential to absorb more.
There's a science behind how he actually processes the solar radiation and converts it to MATP - but I don't follow DC enough to explain. Ask Whirly.
Originally posted by Wynndar
He cant, nor can he ever experience a situation where he could be exposed to infinite solar energy considering he has limited surface area to his body and light travels in vectors.
He can - it was stated specifically in the comics. Yes, there's a maximum number of cells that can absorb solar energy - but there's NO limit to how much energy those cells can absorb. Ruin specifically stated that as his stress increases, those cells absorb more and more solar energy - with no limit. Also remember that Ruin stated that it's actually an active process, not a passive one - he doesn't have to wait for ambient solar energy to come his way - he SUCKS it out. During DKR - he sucked solar energy out of flowers.
Originally posted by demigawd
Not at all true. I'm not even a DC fan - anybody who knows my track record on debates will attest to that. I'm just stating what was stated on several occasions since the Loeb era in 2000 - he has dynamic strength and infinite potential to absorb more.There's a science behind how he actually processes the solar radiation and converts it to MATP - but I don't follow DC enough to explain. Ask Whirly.
He can - it was stated specifically in the comics. Yes, there's a maximum number of cells that can absorb solar energy - but there's NO limit to how much energy those cells can absorb. Ruin specifically stated that as his stress increases, those cells absorb more and more solar energy - with no limit.
Is the "- with no limit" part of the quote, or is it an addition of your own?
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Is the "- with no limit" part of the quote, or is it an addition of your own?
the No Limit storyline stated that there's no limit to the amount of solar energy he can contain. Ruin said that his absorbs more energy as his stress level increases. Ruin didn't say anything about a limit or lack thereof, but you combine it with what else was stated and, well, you do the math.
Keep in mind, too, that this is only four years worth of retcon. We have yet to see it applied in the ways that Hulk has had during his entire history.
Originally posted by demigawd
And what, pray tell, is Stan Lee's explanation for how someone can get "infinitely mad"?
Here goes.
First off, the Hulk isn't even a real person. He's Bruce Banner's childhood imaginary friend, modeled after one of his childhood toys. He can't die, (regeneration,) he can see ghosts, (Bruce always feared Brian Banner's return from the grave, so he gave the Hulk this ability) and he would always be strong enough to protect him and his mother from his father, or anyone else who would try to hurt them, (hence the "madder/stronger" oddage.)
Gamma rays (in the Marvel Universe) have a strange, unexplainable effect on human beings. In the correct dosage, they seem to cause the psychological attributes of the exposure victims to manifest on the physical plane. For instance: Samuel Sterns was a borderline retarded janitor who dreamed of being mentally superior. He gets hit with Gamma rays, and becomes the leader, who's superhuman brain can outperform any computer. Jennifer Walters was a nerdy lawyer, who always dreamed of being attractive and impressive. She gets a gamma infused blood transfusion from Bruce, and she becomes the She-Hulk. Even when the Silver Surfer wanted to clear Galactus's barrier and explore space, he absorbed the Hulk's gamma rays, and he was able to break free of the barrier. There are many other examples.
Bruce Banner is a different case. Once Banner was exposed to the gamma radiation, his imaginary friend, who would become one of his many alter-egos, was given physical form. The Hulk is basically an imaginer being come to reality via gamma radiation. Since he is a product of imagination, his strength is not limited by the laws of physics. Thus his strength can theoretically supersede these laws.
The Hulk's strength is intimately tied to his anger. The madder Hulk gets the stronger Hulk gets. The reason for this is that the Banner persona restrains the Hulk's power. Bruce doesn't want to hurt anyone, or become the monster that his father was. As the Hulk becomes angrier, Banner loses more and more of his influence, thus releasing more and more of the Hulk's power. When Bruce's personality is in control, he's Professor Hulk. When Bruce's personality is suppressed, he's Savage Hulk. When Bruce's personality is totally suppressed, or removed, he becomes Mindless Hulk, an "infinity of physical power."
The Hulk's peak strength would be whatever a child mind could imagine. To put things in scope, Savage Hulk operates at about the Thor/Superman strength level. Professor Hulk is a notch or two lower. Mindless Hulk is unrestrained power with no boundaries.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube👆 😖mart: 🤓
Here goes.First off, the Hulk isn't even a real person. He's Bruce Banner's childhood imaginary friend, modeled after one of his childhood toys. He can't die, (regeneration,) he can see ghosts, (Bruce always feared Brian Banner's return from the grave, so he gave the Hulk this ability) and he would always be strong enough to protect him and his mother from his father, or anyone else who would try to hurt them, (hence the "madder/stronger" oddage.)
Gamma rays (in the Marvel Universe) have a strange, unexplainable effect on human beings. In the correct dosage, they seem to cause the psychological attributes of the exposure victims to manifest on the physical plane. For instance: Samuel Sterns was a borderline retarded janitor who dreamed of being mentally superior. He gets hit with Gamma rays, and becomes the leader, who's superhuman brain can outperform any computer. Jennifer Walters was a nerdy lawyer, who always dreamed of being attractive and impressive. She gets a gamma infused blood transfusion from Bruce, and she becomes the She-Hulk. Even when the Silver Surfer wanted to clear Galactus's barrier and explore space, he absorbed the Hulk's gamma rays, and he was able to break free of the barrier. There are many other examples.
Bruce Banner is a different case. Once Banner was exposed to the gamma radiation, his imaginary friend, who would become one of his many alter-egos, was given physical form. The Hulk is basically an imaginer being come to reality via gamma radiation. Since he is a product of imagination, his strength is not limited by the laws of physics. Thus his strength can theoretically supersede these laws.
The Hulk's strength is intimately tied to his anger. The madder Hulk gets the stronger Hulk gets. The reason for this is that the Banner persona restrains the Hulk's power. Bruce doesn't want to hurt anyone, or become the monster that his father was. As the Hulk becomes angrier, Banner loses more and more of his influence, thus releasing more and more of the Hulk's power. When Bruce's personality is in control, he's Professor Hulk. When Bruce's personality is suppressed, he's Savage Hulk. When Bruce's personality is totally suppressed, or removed, he becomes Mindless Hulk, an "infinity of physical power."
The Hulk's peak strength would be whatever a child mind could imagine. To put things in scope, Savage Hulk operates at about the Thor/Superman strength level. Professor Hulk is a notch or two lower. Mindless Hulk is unrestrained power with no boundaries.
that's nice, it still doesn't explain how someone who is a physical being can get "infinitely mad". That whole explaination is basically, "Hulk is imaginary come to life - don't apply anything to him!", which is bunked b his showings, where he has to breathe, he bleeds, he has a psysiology, he has a finite amount of gamma radiation that, when removed, reverts him. He can lose consciousness. He's very much human in psysiology - and that includes a finite capacity for rage. It still senseless.
Regardless, even if Superman is capable of storing infinite amount of energy, he would not be able to access his strength as easily, efficiently, or as quickly as the Hulk does. Superman's power comes form an exterior source. The Hulk's power is within himself. In his Mindless state, (Check out the Onslaught Saga, or Secret Wars II,) he can exercise truly unrestrained limitless strength.
Superman may be able to get more powerful by absorbing more sunlight, but when it's all said and done, Hulk is the stronger of the two. He has an infinite source from which to draw, (Superman doesn't,) and the source is inside of him.
Originally posted by demigawd
that's nice, it still doesn't explain how someone who is a physical being can get "infinitely mad". That whole explaination is basically, "Hulk is imaginary come to life - don't apply anything to him!", which is bunked b his showings, where he has to breathe, he bleeds, he has a psysiology, he has a finite amount of gamma radiation that, when removed, reverts him. He can lose consciousness. He's very much human in psysiology - and that includes a finite capacity for rage. It still senseless.
Depends on the incarnation of Hulk. The more Banner-influenced the Hulk is, the more human-like it's physical manifestation is.
Hulk doesn't have to get "infinitely mad." Hulk didn't have to get "infinitely mad" when he resisted the matter antimatter attraction. He got angry, and he became strong enough to do what he needed to do, regardless of how physically impossible it may have been.
Try to understand the effects of anger. Anger makes Banner lose control of the Hulk. A better, but not quite as catchy saying for Hulk would be "The less control Banner has, the stronger Hulk gets." The Hulk never gets "infinitely angry." When Savage Hulk gets to a critical level of anger, the Banner persona is completely suppressed, making him Mindless. Anger isn't the hypothetical 'fuel.' Calmness causes Banner to come into control, and weakens the Hulk. A lack thereof does the opposite.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Regardless, even if Superman is capable of storing infinite amount of energy, he would not be able to access his strength as easily, efficiently, or as quickly as the Hulk does. Superman's power comes form an exterior source. The Hulk's power is within himself. In his Mindless state, (Check out the Onslaught Saga, or Secret Wars II,) he can exercise truly unrestrained limitless strength.Superman may be able to get more powerful by absorbing more sunlight, but when it's all said and done, Hulk is the stronger of the two. He has an infinite source from which to draw, (Superman doesn't,) and the source is inside of him.
Depends on the incarnation of Hulk. The more Banner-influenced the Hulk is, the more human-like it's physical manifestation is.
Hulk doesn't have to get "infinitely mad." Hulk didn't have to get "infinitely mad" when he resisted the matter antimatter attraction. He got angry, and he became strong enough to do what he needed to do, regardless of how physically impossible it may have been.
Try to understand the effects of anger. Anger makes Banner lose control of the Hulk. A better, but not quite as catchy saying for Hulk would be "The less control Banner has, the stronger Hulk gets." The Hulk never gets "infinitely angry." When Savage Hulk gets to a critical level of anger, the Banner persona is completely suppressed, making him Mindless. Anger isn't the hypothetical 'fuel.' Calmness causes Banner to come into control, and weakens the Hulk. A lack thereof does the opposite.
If that were the case, then Mindless/Bannerless Hulk would be infinitely strong at all times because there's NO Banner to keep him in check. Mindless/Bannerless Hulk was definitely strong, but he never showed any unusually crazy feats that were beyond non-mindless versions. He broke Onslaught's armor - so what? Onslaught's armor was never said to be unbreakable. In fact, Magneto was the first person to crack Onslaught's armor. Cyclops did more damage after that, then it multiplied. Breaking Onslaught's armor isn't a huge feat.
As for Superman - we don't really know how efficient it is or is not. Superman can get progressively stronger infinitely, or he can sundip himself for instant strength increase. Since it's new, it hasn't really been explored. So comparing their "type" of infinite strength is fruitless right now. All I'm saying is that they both have dynamic strength. That's all.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Thanks.
Stop giving yourself props. 😛
<<We don't know that there's a finite capacity for anger in humans, either demi. It's impossible to find out. But I won't argue that point.>>
i've said that before but it's an unproveable point and usually isn't an effective point. but who's to say there is a limit to how much we can love someone? people have been frightened to death so it is clear emotions can actually exceed our 'physical selves.' it also depends on the individual -- some are more subject to emotions than others. but again, it's at best a refuteable point as their is no means by which to measure it.
anyway, you made some good points above, cc. keep hammering at that damn demi!! 😄
Originally posted by leonidas
<<We don't know that there's a finite capacity for anger in humans, either demi. It's impossible to find out. But I won't argue that point.>>i've said that before but it's an unproveable point and usually isn't an effective point. but who's to say there is a limit to how much we can love someone? people have been frightened to death so it is clear emotions can actually exceed our 'physical selves.' it also depends on the individual -- some are more subject to emotions than others. but again, it's at best a refuteable point as their is no means by which to measure it.
anyway, you made some good points above, cc. keep hammering at that damn demi!! 😄
There is a max capacity for any emotion before you reach a catatonic state and become dissociative from it. Love isn't really an emotion, strictly defined. But either way, if this "anger" aspect is really just Banner losing control, then "max" Hulk would be Hulk without Banner, who we've seen and been underwhelmed by.