Superman vs. Hulk

Originally posted by demigawd
If that were the case, then Mindless/Bannerless Hulk would be infinitely strong at all times because there's NO Banner to keep him in check. Mindless/Bannerless Hulk was definitely strong, but he never showed any unusually crazy feats that were beyond non-mindless versions. He broke Onslaught's armor - so what? Onslaught's armor was never said to be unbreakable. In fact, Magneto was the first person to crack Onslaught's armor. Cyclops did more damage after that, then it multiplied. Breaking Onslaught's armor isn't a huge feat.

As for Superman - we don't really know how efficient it is or is not. Superman can get progressively stronger infinitely, or he can sundip himself for instant strength increase. Since it's new, it hasn't really been explored. So comparing their "type" of infinite strength is fruitless right now. All I'm saying is that they both have dynamic strength. That's all.

Stop giving yourself props. 😛

Mindless Hulk wrestled with the Beyonder. That's not displaying limitless power? The Beyonder explicitly states that Hulk is an infinity of power. He does exercise limitless strength when Mindless.

Fully-powered Onslaught's armor couldn't be broken by the efforts of every other friggin superhero on Earth. Hulk completely shattered it with one punch.

We haven't seen it proven that Superman can become infintetly stronger. We have seen that he becomes stronger when absorbing sunlight, but infinitely so? Nuh-uh. If Superman could amp his strength infinitely by getting stressed out, why sundip? Where is all the extra solar energy coming from? Getting stressed out might cause him to absorb sunlight at a faster rate, given, but infinitely so? I don't buy it.

To date, Hulk has displayed greater feats of strength that Superman, and just about every other Superhero. Can you admit that, demi?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<We don't know that there's a finite capacity for anger in humans, either demi. It's impossible to find out. But I won't argue that point.>>

i've said that before but it's an unproveable point and usually isn't an effective point. but who's to say there is a limit to how much we can love someone? people have been frightened to death so it is clear emotions can actually exceed our 'physical selves.' it also depends on the individual -- some are more subject to emotions than others. but again, it's at best a refuteable point as their is no means by which to measure it.

anyway, you made some good points above, cc. keep hammering at that damn demi!! 😄

Thanks leo.

BTW, Me and kgkg are the same person.

I'm 1/3 of the Cosmic Cube KGKG LP Tribunal.....

Oh no! All three members of the Undead Tribunal are present!

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh no! All three members of the Undead Tribunal are present!

And we judge you.....guilty...guilty of being too sexy! droolio

Originally posted by demigawd
There is a max capacity for any emotion before you reach a catatonic state and become dissociative from it. Love isn't really an emotion, strictly defined. But either way, if this "anger" aspect is really just Banner losing control, then "max" Hulk would be Hulk without Banner, who we've seen and been underwhelmed by.

Debatable, but I decline to.

Hulk can attain near infinite levels of strength. Banner stops him from doing so. The angrier Hulk is, the less control Banner has. No control = unlimited strength.

Another difference from Superman's "unlimited strength":

Obviously, Superman getting stressed doesn't give him as much of a boost as sundipping, and we've seen what Sundipped Supes is capable of. That being the case, Superman would need more time to absorb enough sunlight to reach sundipped levels, even at an increased rate, considering the fact that there's only so much sunlight present in the atmosphere, and Superman's surface area is only about 18 feet squared, max.

Hulk get's mad, and whatever he was trying to lift, he lifts, regardless of how heavy it is.

How is the Superman's method even remotely as efficient as Hulk's, demi?

Originally posted by long pig
I'm 1/3 of the Cosmic Cube KGKG LP Tribunal.....

Originally posted by long pig
And we judge you.....guilty...guilty of being too sexy! droolio

😆

Long Pig's sick with it man.

But seriously, it's agreed that more times than not the answer to the thread is no, Supes beats Hulk more often than not, and the not is in an obscure occurence that Supes somehow forgets how far more versatile he is than Hulk and fights him the way the had Gladiator fight him in that jobber match.

Originally posted by illadelph12
😆

Long Pig's sick with it man.

But seriously, it's agreed that more times than not the answer to the thread is no, Supes beats Hulk more often than not, and the not is in an obscure occurence that Supes somehow forgets how far more versatile he is than Hulk and fights him the way the had Gladiator fight him in that jobber match.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Mindless Hulk wrestled with the Beyonder. That's not displaying limitless power? The Beyonder explicitly states that Hulk is an infinity of power. He does exercise limitless strength when Mindless.

If it were "limitless", it wouldn't be much of a wresting match - Hulk would win instantly.

Fully-powered Onslaught's armor couldn't be broken by the efforts of every other friggin superhero on Earth. Hulk completely shattered it with one punch.

Onslaught's armor was cracked by multiple heroes by then. In fact, Thor smashed right through the armor to get Xavier. there was some significant damage done to his armor by the time Hulk fought him. And the fact that Onslaught took more than a single punch and was pinned by Onslaught, who got caught talking trash proves right there that Hulk doesn't have "limitless" strength...just that he's really strong with no measurable limit.

We haven't seen it proven that Superman can become infintetly stronger. We have seen that he becomes stronger when absorbing sunlight, but infinitely so? Nuh-uh. If Superman could amp his strength infinitely by getting stressed out, why sundip? Where is all the extra solar energy coming from? Getting stressed out might cause him to absorb sunlight at a faster rate, given, but infinitely so? I don't buy it.

It was explicitly stated that there's no limit to how much solar energy Superman can absorb - Superman Prime continuously absorbed solar energy for 15,000 years. From inside the sun itself.

As for why he needs to sundip - I answered this in my faucet vs. river analogy. You can drink an unlimited amount of water from your faucet, but you can drink an unlimited amount faster if you drink from the river. So, no, there IS no limit to how much he can absorb.

To date, Hulk has displayed greater feats of strength that Superman, and just about every other Superhero. Can you admit that, demi?

I never said otherwise. Hulk has displayed greater feats of strength. I've NEVER said otherwise. I mentioned what Superman's top feats were, but I didn't draw conclusions based on that. What started this was that I said that Superman now has dynamic strength as well, which makes even the strength argument a wash. Given that it's a retcon, I wouldn't expect Superman to display greater feats of strength...yet. But what I am saying is that, in light of this new ability, it's no longer as simple as saying that Hulk can just get strong enough to beat Superman. Superman gets stronger with stress too, and in a way that I'd say is more effective.

Comparing strength feats, I guess nothing tops the anti-matter feat, but ultmately I think we can both agree that when someone has dynamic strength, their top displayed feats really aren't their maximum.

That said, there's a lot of inconsistency in how Hulk is portrayed. He braced the mountain in a calm state, yet couldn't outwrestle Thor after an hour of getting mad. He destroyed an asteroid twice the size of earth, as Grey Hulk, and totally calm...yet he was shown to be at Thing's level of strength. He gets agitated by Spider-Man for a few seconds, and can suddenly develop enough anger for an "infinite" feat of strength? Is his strength based on his level of anger or not? It's his MO, but all his strength feats have little to do with levels of anger. It doesn't make sense.

So I'll say this and be done with it - if Hulk can INSTANTLY (or within seconds) reach "infinite" strength, then he's stronger than Superman. If Hulk is as he's SUPPOSED to be, and gets stronger as his rage increases, then it's a wash, because Superman now gets stronger as his stress increases.

Originally posted by demigawd
If that were the case, then Mindless/Bannerless Hulk would be infinitely strong at all times because there's NO Banner to keep him in check. Mindless/Bannerless Hulk was definitely strong, but he never showed any unusually crazy feats that were beyond non-mindless versions. He broke Onslaught's armor - so what? Onslaught's armor was never said to be unbreakable. In fact, Magneto was the first person to crack Onslaught's armor. Cyclops did more damage after that, then it multiplied. Breaking Onslaught's armor isn't a huge feat.

We're talking about two different fights. Magneto was inside of Onslaught when Hulk and Onslaught fought. Hulk fought Onslaught at FULL POWER. The same guy who created a second friggin sun. No one else could even get near Onslaught because of the energy field he had created. Only Hulk was strong enough to go through it. When Hulk is Mindless, he's totally impervious to damage, similarly to Juggernaut. He's physically undefeatable, (unless he's physically seperated from Banner, which eventually causes him to cease to exist,) and he can't be KOed by physical attacks, not even by beings like Onslaught. It took the reality warping blast that resulted from Onslaught's physical destruction to stop him.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
We're talking about two different fights. Magneto was inside of Onslaught when Hulk and Onslaught fought. Hulk fought Onslaught at FULL POWER. The same guy who created a second friggin sun. No one else could even get near Onslaught because of the energy field he had created. Only Hulk was strong enough to go through it. When Hulk is Mindless, he's totally impervious to damage, similarly to Juggernaut. He's physically undefeatable, (unless he's physically seperated from Banner, which eventually causes him to cease to exist,) and he can't be KOed by physical attacks, not even by beings like Onslaught. It took the reality warping blast that resulted from Onslaught's physical destruction to stop him.

Magneto wasn't inside of Onslaught at any time. Xavier, Franklin and X-men were all inside of Onslaught, never Magneto.

The Onslaught whose armor Magneto (Joseph) cracked was the full power Onsaught. The progressive cracking of the armor by Magneto, Cyclops and Invisible Woman, followed by the running through of the armor by Thor all happened in the same issue as Hulk eventually destroying the armor. Destroying Onslaught's armor isn't a feat.

And given that Onslaught physically (for whatever reason) beat up and pinned down Hulk, I'd say that he was quite pervious to damage.

Originally posted by demigawd
If it were "limitless", it wouldn't be much of a wresting match - Hulk would win instantly.

Onslaught's armor was cracked by multiple heroes by then. In fact, Thor smashed right through the armor to get Xavier. there was some significant damage done to his armor by the time Hulk fought him. And the fact that Onslaught took more than a single punch and was pinned by Onslaught, who got caught talking trash proves right there that Hulk doesn't have "limitless" strength...just that he's really strong with no measurable limit.

It was explicitly stated that there's no limit to how much solar energy Superman can absorb - Superman Prime continuously absorbed solar energy for 15,000 years. From inside the sun itself.

As for why he needs to sundip - I answered this in my faucet vs. river analogy. You can drink an unlimited amount of water from your faucet, but you can drink an unlimited amount faster if you drink from the river. So, no, there IS no limit to how much he can absorb.

I never said otherwise. Hulk has displayed greater feats of strength. I've NEVER said otherwise. I mentioned what Superman's top feats were, but I didn't draw conclusions based on that. What started this was that I said that Superman now has dynamic strength as well, which makes even the strength argument a wash. Given that it's a retcon, I wouldn't expect Superman to display greater feats of strength...yet. But what I am saying is that, in light of this new ability, it's no longer as simple as saying that Hulk can just get strong enough to beat Superman. Superman gets stronger with stress too, and in a way that I'd say is more effective.

Comparing strength feats, I guess nothing tops the anti-matter feat, but ultmately I think we can both agree that when someone has dynamic strength, their top displayed feats really aren't their maximum.

That said, there's a lot of inconsistency in how Hulk is portrayed. He braced the mountain in a calm state, yet couldn't outwrestle Thor after an hour of getting mad. He destroyed an asteroid twice the size of earth, as Grey Hulk, and totally calm...yet he was shown to be at Thing's level of strength. He gets agitated by Spider-Man for a few seconds, and can suddenly develop enough anger for an "infinite" feat of strength? Is his strength based on his level of anger or not? It's his MO, but all his strength feats have little to do with levels of anger. It doesn't make sense.

So I'll say this and be done with it - if Hulk can INSTANTLY (or within seconds) reach "infinite" strength, then he's stronger than Superman. If Hulk is as he's SUPPOSED to be, and gets stronger as his rage increases, then it's a wash, because Superman now gets stronger as his stress increases.

Unless, of course, the Beyonder has infinite power. Which he does (or did at the time, this was pre-retcon.)

You misunderstand. Hulk's strength is never equal to infinity. Not even when Mindless. If that were the case, everything he touched would explode. It increases towards infinity as Banner loses more and more control. That does NOT mean that when Banner has NO control, Hulk's strength is equal to infinity. It means that his strength will be totally unrestrained, increasing as needed, towards infinty without stopping. Apparently, his strength surpassed Onslaught's level of durability with the final blow.

Hulk's strength basically increases as required. There is no rate at which he grows stronger. If he needs to lift something, if it's liftable, he will lift it. If he needs to break something, and it's breakable, he will break it. He's always strong enough to do whatever is necessary. When Mindless, he doesn't have to get angrier to lift any amount of weight because his power is unrestrained. Not in the sense that everything he touches breaks. More in the sense that if he needs to exhibit an uber-amount of strength, he can. Much like Champion uses the Infinity Power Gem. He has infinite strength, but you never see him written KOing everyone in one punch.

So, Superman's stress triggering greater sunlight absorption makes strength a moot point? I beg to differ. We've never seen a dramatic increase in Superman's power simply because he becomes stressed. He wouldn't be able to match the geometric strength increases that the Hulk can undergo.

If you're asking if Hulk can get angry, at the spur of a moment, and be able to go from lifting, 1,000,000 tons to lifting 10x10^48902350 tons, the answer is yes. He has proven that he can.

Originally posted by demigawd
Magneto wasn't inside of Onslaught at any time. Xavier, Franklin and X-men were all inside of Onslaught, never Magneto.

The Onslaught whose armor Magneto (Joseph) cracked was the full power Onsaught. The progressive cracking of the armor by Magneto, Cyclops and Invisible Woman, followed by the running through of the armor by Thor all happened in the same issue as Hulk eventually destroying the armor. Destroying Onslaught's armor isn't a feat.

And given that Onslaught physically (for whatever reason) beat up and pinned down Hulk, I'd say that he was quite pervious to damage.

Joseph and Magneto aren't the same guy. Magneto's consciousness was inside of Onslaught. Onslaught was unscathed when he fought Hulk. No one was able to put a scratch in his armor. I have scans.

Did Hulk ever appear damaged during the course of the fight? Not until that reality altering blast seperated him and Banner physically. He's physically impervious. Onslaught wasn't able to keep him pinned. Hulk lifted his hand, punched Onslaught, and destroyed him.

It's almost as though Hulk is powered by the imagination. If he believes he can lift it, and Banner isn't restraining his strength (hence the reason why he needs to get angry,) he will be able to. That's why Savage Hulk is so much more powerful than the logically thinking incarnations.

Hulk beats superman in a match that doesn't give superman the opportunity to exploit his versatility...

Uh, I see what Demi's saying.

When Supes is stressed his body produces and metabolizes more of his meta-protein, which in turn means he absorbs more sunlight (which his body metabloizes to produce the meta protein).

Basically, it's like pushing down a gas pedal further and burning more gas, but in Superman's case, the "gas"(cosmic rays and radiation emitted from the Sun) is 'limitless', as well as the limit on his spedometer. Sun dipping is like going from 0 to 1,000,000 instantly, where as the other stress increased strength is a gradual ascension in strength for Supes, as it is for Hulk.

Either way, Supes takes Hulk.

Hulk's power is limited by Banner. The more Banner is in control, the weaker, less durable, and smarter the incarnation is. As a child, in Bruce's mind, Hulk was strong enough to do anything, and physically unbeatable. What we call Mindless Hulk (or an extremely pissed Savage Hulk,) is really what young Bruce had intended for the Hulk to be.

As Bruce grew older, Hulk became a repressed personality in his mind. After the Gamma Bomb hit Bruce, Hulk first manifested as Grey Hulk, the repressed teenage personality of Bruce. Eventually, after losing control of his anger, Savage Hulk manifested, who was the strongest, most durable incarnation to date. Still, Savage Hulk's persona is influenced by Banner, though Banner is suppressed, but as a child-like Banner, which removes much of adult Bruce's restraint on the Hulk's power.

Mindless Hulk is the true form of the imaginary childhood friend of young Bruce. He's physically undefeatable, and he's as strong as he needs to be, no matter how strong that may be, making his strength effectively limitless.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Uh, I see what Demi's saying.

When Supes is stressed his body produces and metabolizes more of his meta-protein, which in turn means he absorbs more sunlight (which his body metabloizes to produce the meta protein).

Basically, it's like pushing down a gas pedal further and burning more gas, but in Superman's case, the "gas"(cosmic rays and radiation emitted from the Sun) is 'limitless', as well as the limit on his spedometer. Sun dipping is like going from 0 to 1,000,000 instantly, where as the other stress increased strength is a gradual ascension in strength for Supes, as it is for Hulk.

Either way, Supes takes Hulk.

Meta-protien? 🤨

I know exactly what demi is saying.

The hole in this argument is that Hulk's strength increases aren't gradual. They are geometric bursts. Another hole is that we haven't ever seen Superman make a significant increase in strength without sundipping. He may absorb sunlight faster, but that doesn't mean he would be able to become stronger as fast as Hulk can, and neither has he shown that Superman can hold a limitless amount of energy. Hulk getting pissed can be like sundipping Supes, depending on the incarnation.

I know that Superman wins, unless there's some sort of PIS.

In closing, I understand that Superman can become stronger by absorbing sunlight, and when he's stressed, he absorbs more quickly. Until it's shown otherwise, there's no reason to assume that there is no limit to the amount of energy he can absorb,but even if there is no limit to the amount of energy he can absorb, there's only a limited amount of solar energy available, especially on Earth, and Superman can only absorb but so much of it at once.

Hulk has a limitless source of power inside of himself, from which he can draw any given amount, at any given time. He has shown through feats that he can become stronger than even sundipped Superman, in mere moments.

My point, people, is that Hulk is stronger than Superman. Not that that changes the outcome of this fight. Superman wins because of versatility.