<<Great post, leo.>>
ahhhh . . . . 😮
<<Thats the first time I think I've heard someon articulate that argument...it shoots down the Hulk-Pessimist who claim Hulk has a limit to his anger.>>
yeah, well, it's just speculation on my part. anyone can refute it because it's not written anywhere, or mentioned in any book (that i know of). it just seems to me to explain certain things. hulk pessimists will claim i'm full of crap, but . . .
what the hell do THEY know!!
boxing
haha...I wish there were a way to read THIS post, so I wouldn't have to go through that huge confusing mess you posted before. I was getting my roaster good and ready for you when I read this. Pity. 🙁
But, after you spent the past several posts basically working aloud to reconcile all of our points and presenting it all into a few paragraphs below, I think we've actually come to an accord on most points. As such, I agree with most of what you've written below.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Hulk increasing his strength while trying to lift something heavy is a different matter than Hulk increasing his strength in battle. Hulk can become as strong as he needs to be to lift something, simply by getting angry. It doesn't work like that in a fight. Hulk might be able to exercises infinite strength when resisting the matter-antimatter attraction, but that doesn't mean that he can gain that type of strength just because he gets a little upset.
I definitely agree with that statement. Otherwise it would be impossible to reconcile his calm lifting showings where he showed far greater strength with his angry battle strength, which is considerably less that that. Your statement finds a good way to explain both our arguments, though I suspect the writers didn't have that level of detail in mind.
In a fight, anger is a very important factor that affects Hulk's strength. Time is important as well. Savage Hulk can't instantly become stronger than any opponent. First he has to get mad. The madder Hulk is, the greater his strength increases will be. The longer his anger is sustained, the stronger he will become. There's no defined limit to how large those increases will be, but they become greater in magnitude as Hulk becomes angrier.
Agreed here as well. His showings, as I said, show a progressive increase in strength to correspond with his rage. Like any types of rage, it can grow in BIG spurts if he's REALLY mad, or little spurs, if he's peeved. It really depends on the circumstances of the battle.
I don't necessarily agree with the details of the mechanics of his strength increases as you presented it here, but given that it's never been explained within the comics itself, it's largely open to interpretation. My own view is that there is a strength increase that direcly corresponds with his anger level, as it's really the only way to explain "a little mad, a little stronger, a lot mad, a lot stronger", but I think we're agreed that there's some relation between anger and strength in battle.
For example; If Savage Hulk faced Onslaught without Jean Grey using her telepathy to increase Hulk's rage, he wouldn't have been able to become strong enough to destroy Onslaught's body, because Onslaught would have destroyed him long before he could become a threat. However, by increasing Hulk's anger to insane levels, Jean allowed Hulk to reach and exceed Onslaught's level of strength in a very short period of time.
Agreed, and it required tampering to enable Hulk to reach that level. Jean Grey was Hulk's "sundip", if you will. And even in that state, he didn't have "infinite" strength, it, like all other versions of Hulk, increased with his rage. His base was far higher in that state, but we don't know how much stronger he became during the course of the battle with Onslaught.
In combat, Savage Hulk's anger level and the length of the fight are key elements. The longer Hulk sustains a certain level of rage, the greater his strength increases. These increases aren't gradual nudges. When Savage Hulk is really pissed, the increases are exponential growths.
Here's where I take some issue. In his battles with Thor, Hulk's strength has, in some cases, remained the same, and in other cases, he's gotten stronger, but it wasn't exponential. Looking at his overall body of work in combat, Hulk has more examples of gradual strength increases than huge increases -and much of that is offset by his opponent also wearing down. I've never read a battle where Hulk went from struggling to dominating in mere panels. And if such battles do exist, they're vastly outweighed by examples to the contrary. In Defenders, even after getting mad, Savage Hulk was still unable to break Magneto's magnetic bonds, for example. I'm sure he would have done it eventually - but an expotential growth would have allowed that to happen. It didn't. "eventually" implies less expotential and more progressive.
If Hulk doesn't calm down, which he wouldn't, unless he was affected by external circumstances, his strength continues to grow as the battle continues. Hulk wouldn't have any reason to instantly go crazy as though Superman had killed Betty, but Savage Hulk isn't a rational person. He would be getting angrier just because Superman was there, or because.
I agree - but again, Savage Hulk has some degree of reason. It's just that his reason is guided by emotion. If his emotions dictate that Superman is there to challenge him, it would lead to very different strength levels than his emotions dictating that Superman hurt Betty. In the latter, I agree that Hulk would indeed become physically stronger than Superman very quickly. In the former, I hold that Superman would remain physically superior and indeed his strength increases would keep pace with Hulk's, because as you yourself theorized, they're both empowered by stress.
Superman may be able to absorb more solar energy as he becomes more stressed, but there is a point at which he would be absorbing sunlight at 100% efficiency, not to mention that the solar energy he's absorbing would also have to compensate for the energy he expends. The closest Superman can come to matching the phenomenon of Hulk's increasing strength is sundipping. Superman's energy is slowly consumed as he fights, while the Hulk's strength increases.
Here's the only major point of disagreement I have. There isn't 100% efficiency - Ruin theorized that Superman actively *sucks* solar energy, he just doesn't realize it. It's not limited to ambient efficiency the way you think. It's more similar to Silver Surfer, who can choose to grab as much energy at one time as required. Superman has demonstrated some incredible absorption feats over the past few years - that's proof of both capacity and scale. We don't know what those limits are, the same way we don't know exactly how great a strength increase Hulk gets per minute of rage.
Savage Hulk and Superman are consistently shown to be in the same class of strength. If they start from the same point, and Superman gradually adds to his strength, while Hulk's strength is increasing exponentially, after an hour of fighting, Hulk would most certainly have become much stronger than Superman. That's why Hulk would have the strength advantage in this fight.
I understand your conclusion, but as I mentioned above, that kind of expotential growth isn't supported by the majority of his battles. Thats why I believe that after an hour of fighting that they would be roughly equal in strength.
I'd say that the crux of our disagreement hinges solely on how rapidly Hulk's strength increases. There's obviously no way to measure that, but my readings of Hulk comics support less of an exponential growth and more of a gradual growth. I'd be curious to hear what your overall impression of that is.
There were some other posts from other people worth responding to, but I've more or less summed up my entire viewpoint here, so I don't think it will be necessary.
BTW - what's the thread for this now? I know it got merged, but I don't know what it got merged WITH.
Ah, well the Hell, I'll respond to this one too. 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Well, Superman isn't human either.>>true enough, clearly. the point i was trying to make is that hulk is not subject to the normal human/physical laws as regards his strength. however strong he may get, supes IS bound by physcial laws of the universe.
Considering he's able to exceed the speed of light, I'd have to disagree with that. Most superheroes of exceptional power bend or break the physical laws of the universe. You can't qualify one and disqualify the other. Hulk has feats the defy the physical laws of the universe, it's true. But so does Superman. When I say "he's not human either" - that's what I meant.
i know cc has said this but it bears repeating -- the source of hulk's strength is without limit ie - infinite. and as the hulk it seems he is (at least at times) capable of reaching near infinite levels while no human could psychically achieve the sort of emotional level required to reach such levels of strength without their minds or bodies shutting down.
Indeed. But again - superman isn't human. Just as you MAY be able to contend that Hulk's anger level is infinite, I can equally contend that the level and duration of Superman's stress is infinite as well. We don't know if either is true because no limit has yet been reached. All we know is that, in both cases, others have observed that their potential is unlimited and where they are now is, ultimately, just scratching the surface.
that's a way i've looked at hulk in the past. not only is he capable of far greater strength than humans, he is capable of reaching pinnacles of emotion humans cannot, whatever those emotions may be -- anger, frustration, fear, another one i think may be pride -- if hulk is 'dared' or challenged he usually rises to the occasion though no real anger is involved -- ie the antimatter scene. there are many instances in hulk's past that show it is not NECESSARILY anger alone that drives him. the levels of emotion he reaches would logically kill a normal human, or break their minds through madness or disassociation. hulk's emotions are those that exist BEYOND the normal human breaking point, and as such should be viewed differently from our own because we CANNOT reach them.
I think CC did well in explaining those inconsistences in his battle (anger) feats vs. his lifting (calm) feats. And I addressed my feelings about them there, so I won't rehash it.
in effect, if something in the universe is said to be truly impossible to lift for physical reason, it is conceiveable hulk could STILL lift it
This may sound strange because I can't articulate it any better, but there's a difference between impossible and impossible. Impossible is, "A man can't turn into a huge Green Monster from gamma radiation". It's impossible because it's *thought* to be impossible - it defies logic and the physical laws of the universe. Impossible, on the other hand is, "write every number of pi" - it's not impossible because its possibility would break physical laws, it's impossible because its possibility creates a logical paradox.
God can do the impossible and break every physical law as he deems fit - can he build a rock so heavy he can't lift it? No. Why, because it's physically impossible? No, because it's paradoxically impossible. It conflicts with itself.
The problem with matter-anti-matter attraction is that if the attracting force is truly infinite, then NOTHING will be able to break it. Not because of physical laws, but because to do so would take a greater than infinite force, and nothing is greater than infinite. Infinite is infinite. If Hulk breaks it, it's not infinite. And if it's not infinite, then it's not proof of infinite strength, lol.
As for what SHOULD happen...I don't know. The universe should be destroyed in the paradox, I guess. Either way, that feat doesn't make sense.
Originally posted by demigawd
haha...I wish there were a way to read THIS post, so I wouldn't have to go through that huge confusing mess you posted before. I was getting my roaster good and ready for you when I read this. Pity. 🙁 ...
Great post. Now we can finally stop making monster-sized posts, and debate the finer details.
Just to let you know, when he flies, Superman exhibits a power that warps space.
Hulk didn't force the matter and antimatter sphere's apart. THAT would be a paradox. They converged on him, and he held them there.
However, I think that leo is saying that even though the force of attraction between the orbs is infinite, it wouldn't be 'too infinite' for Hulk to resist, because the Hulk's strength isn't bound by the laws of the physical universe. If his strength was bound to the laws of the physical universe, he would have failed.
Leo's point of view sounds very similar to Stan Lee's. Great minds think alike. 😉
But what is "too" infinite? Infinite is infinite. Nothing infinite is more infinite than something else infinite.
I haven't seen the feat for myself, so I don't really understand fully what that is - are there any scans, or at least an in-depth description of everything that took place. I'm having trouble understanding it.
Just to let you know, when he flies, Superman exhibits a power that warps space.
I think you get the point, lol.
Originally posted by demigawd
But what is "too" infinite? Infinite is infinite. Nothing infinite is more infinite than something else infinite.I haven't seen the feat for myself, so I don't really understand fully what that is - are there any scans, or at least an in-depth description of everything that took place. I'm having trouble understanding it.
I think you get the point, lol.
That's the point. The fact that the force of attraction between matter and antimatter is infinite is a law of physics in itself. If Hulk's strength doesn't obey the laws of physics, it wouldn't really matter how powerful the force of attraction is. Hulk would be able to overcome it.
Now that I think of it, leo's explaination seems to make more sense than mine.
I have scans. 1 sec.
To answer a few of your questions;
The mechanics of Hulk's strength increases are never made clear. We know that they involve both anger and time, but I think it's made pretty clear in the Onslaught Saga that Hulk's strength increases over time as he remains enraged, without his anger actually increasing.
Check out some of Savage Hulk's fights. He was able to fight Drax w/ the Infinity Power Gem to a standstill, something no one else has ever done. In almost every fight against Thor, or Hercules, Hulk is stalemating them, or losing at first, but in a page or two, he's dominating them physically.
The Defender's issue is something new to me, but up until this point, nothing has been able to contain Hulk, aside from the Bands of Cyttorak. Dr. Doom said that no force in the universe could break through his forcefields. Hulk broke through it. Collector the Elder thought the same of his most powerful force field. Hulk broke through it.
Heck, the Kree used a force field that reflects its detainee's power back at them to imprison the Defenders. Surfer, Strange, and Namor all knock themselves out trying to escape the devices. Hulk keeps pounding on his, and eventually destroys it. That would mean that Hulk is stronger than himself. A paradox? Yes.
Now I need some sort of evidence of Superman actually pulling in sunlight from the sun just because he's stressed. Last I checked, Superman wasn't an energy manipulator. I've never encountered this argument before.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Before I post them, I have a question for you, demi*. 😮 Do you read a lot of Superman comics?
Yup, I've been reading Superman since the DOS storyline. Why do you ask?
The mechanics of Hulk's strength increases are never made clear. We know that they involve both anger and time. I think it's made pretty clear in the Onslaught Saga that Hulk's strength increases over time as he remains enraged.
That was a question I had? I said the same thing in my post. 😄
Check out some of Savage Hulk's fights. He was able to fight Drax w/ the Infinity Power Gem to a standstill, something no one else has ever done. In almost every fight against Thor, or Hercules, Hulk is stalemating them, or losing at first, but in a page or two, he's dominating them.
Drax with the Infinity Gem isn't infinitely strong - he has the potential to be infinitely strong. For unskilled users, it's a subconscious process, as shown by Champion in his fight with Thanos. It's proof that Hulk is strong, but not proof of quantum leaps in strength.
With the fights against Thor and Hercules, I've read most of them, and I think we're interpreting what we saw differently - Hulk has never, in my view, dominated Thor after losing a page or two earlier. They've always battled evenly, with Thor winning usually when using the hammer, and Hulk winning the time he got Thor to get rid of his hammer. In the latter, the fight went the entire issue - Thor was tired and Hulk was "stronger than ever", but we see no evidence of a monunmental increase in strength - even after that, they fought fairly evenly.
I think a good example is his fight with Abomination, who was said to be twice as strong. It took almost the entire issue for Hulk's strength to catch up to Abomination's. So it took a very long fight for Hulk's strength to double. It doubled, alright...but it was slooooow.
The Defender's issue is something new to me, but up until this point, nothing has been able to contain Hulk, aside from the Bands of Cyttorak. Dr. Doom said that no force in the universe could break through his forcefields. Hulk broke through it. Collector the Elder thought the same of his most powerful force field. Hulk broke through it.
Super-villains are prone to self-hype, though. How many villains declare that they cannot be defeated five panels before they are? 😉
Heck, the Kree used a force field that reflects its detainee's power back at them to imprison the Defenders. Surfer, Strange, and Namor all knock themselves out trying to escape the devices. Hulk keeps pounding on his, and eventually destroys it. That would mean that Hulk is stronger than himself. A paradox? Yes.
Which also means Hulk is weaker than himself, lol.
There was actually an episode of He-Man years ago where He-Man was in the same predictament. He adjusted his strength in a huge burst faster than the field was able to keep up and it overloaded because it couldn't account for the increase in energy expended. My explanation is that a similar thing happened with Hulk.
Now I need some sort of evidence of Superman actually pulling in sunlight from the sun just because he's stressed. Last I checked, Superman wasn't an energy manipulator. I've never encountered this argument before.
Well, like I said, the concept is only a few months old - I think 636 came out in March, so there are no feats that take advantage of it yet. You'll have to stay tuned.
ok, I've seen the scans. Mmm. Something tells me that the writer didn't really intend on it being the scale of feat that I think people who analyze the nature of matter/anti-matter attraction make it out to be. And there are a lot of ways to explain away what really appears to be a somewhat vague feat. I don't know - maybe I'm being biased, so I can't trust my own assessment of it. What do other members of the board make of this scan?
People don't realize this but Hulk is as strong as his opponents and eventually stronger.
Writers have also shown no limits to him.
When he was facing harder enemies his strength match his opponents most of the time.
Silver Surfer used hulk strength to get out though Galactus shield (because his powers couldn’t)
Even Pre-Crisis superman said that there is no one stronger than Hulk
that's the nature of Hulk's character
Originally posted by demigawd
Yup, I've been reading Superman since the DOS storyline. Why do you ask?That was a question I had? I said the same thing in my post. 😄
Drax with the Infinity Gem isn't infinitely strong - he has the potential to be infinitely strong. For unskilled users, it's a subconscious process, as shown by Champion in his fight with Thanos. It's proof that Hulk is strong, but not proof of quantum leaps in strength.
With the fights against Thor and Hercules, I've read most of them, and I think we're interpreting what we saw differently - Hulk has never, in my view, dominated Thor after losing a page or two earlier. They've always battled evenly, with Thor winning usually when using the hammer, and Hulk winning the time he got Thor to get rid of his hammer. In the latter, the fight went the entire issue - Thor was tired and Hulk was "stronger than ever", but we see no evidence of a monunmental increase in strength - even after that, they fought fairly evenly.
I think a good example is his fight with Abomination, who was said to be twice as strong. It took almost the entire issue for Hulk's strength to catch up to Abomination's. So it took a very long fight for Hulk's strength to double. It doubled, alright...but it was slooooow.
Super-villains are prone to self-hype, though. How many villains declare that they cannot be defeated five panels before they are? 😉
Which also means Hulk is weaker than himself, lol.
There was actually an episode of He-Man years ago where He-Man was in the same predictament. He adjusted his strength in a huge burst faster than the field was able to keep up and it overloaded because it couldn't account for the increase in energy expended. My explanation is that a similar thing happened with Hulk.
Well, like I said, the concept is only a few months old - I think 636 came out in March, so there are no feats that take advantage of it yet. You'll have to stay tuned.
I was curious, what is Superman's greatest feat of strength that he has performed at his base strength, unaided by any companions?
There are some fights wherein it will take a while for Hulk to become stronger than his opponent. That depends on how angry he is. Hulk's strength isn't alway's going to increase exponentially. The fact remains that it *can* increase exponentially. There are fights in which Hulk has become MUCH stronger than Thor. So much so that Thor has had to rely solely on Mjolnir to keep Hulk away from him.
Drax was increasing his strength with the gem. Hulk was able to match his strength increases.
I see. If that's the case, and the concept is new and untested, let's not make hasty assumptions. The only Superman I've ever seen pulling in energy from his environment is Energy Supes, and that's because he's an energy manipulator. Let's not assume that Superman would be able to do the same simply because he's agitated.
Originally posted by demigawd
ok, I've seen the scans. Mmm. Something tells me that the writer didn't really intend on it being the scale of feat that I think people who analyze the nature of matter/anti-matter attraction make it out to be. And there are a lot of ways to explain away what really appears to be a somewhat vague feat. I don't know - maybe I'm being biased, so I can't trust my own assessment of it. What do other members of the board make of this scan?
Spiderman's amazement doesn't give the feat an "impossible" sort of gesture? I mean, Spiderman has seen Hulk do some pretty amazing things. Spiderman being shocked at Hulk performing such a feat says a lot about it.
Whirlysplat says it's bad writing. 😄
Just about everyone accepts that the feat demonstrates limitless strength. long pig, leonidas, kgkg, and Avvy, just to name a few. And it does.