Superman vs. Hulk

"Quantify" means to identify a quantitiy with a value. "A lot" is not a value. You can't put a value on how angry he is. You can, however, put a value on how much Hulk can lift at a particular point in time.

The madder Hulk is, the easier it is for him to get a strength increase. That better? Savage Hulk can't increase his strength without somehow loosening Banners control. The easiest way to do that (aside from having Jean Grey telepathically lobotomize Banner's persona,) is to get angry. The angrier Hulk is, the less control Banner has, and the easier it is for Hulk to get stronger.

Merged Hulk supporting the 150 billion ton mountain was not the most weight Hulk has ever lifted, and that feat alone further proves my point. The mountain fell on Hulk, and Hulk caught it on his back. Merged Hulk is nowhere near the 150 billion ton range, and as soon as the mountain landed on him, the physical stress and fear of being crushed made him strong enough to support it. Neither stress nor fear are as potent catalysts as anger. When Hulk started to weaken, Reed insulted him to make him angry. This made Hulk strong enough to support the mountain until Iron Man, the Human Torch, and Photon devised a way to escape.

The same is not true of Superman. Superman has no source of infinte yellow sunlight, and the source that he has he can draw from only gradually. Superman doesn't have limitless strength. He can keep getting stronger and stronger, but eventually, there will be no yellow sunlight to absorb.

Actually, the feat proves my point, demi. The level of anger Hulk is at does not directly correspond to his level of strength. Hulk has been way, way angrier than he was when he resisted the matter anti-matter attraction. However, proving to Spiderman that he was the strongest one there is required holding the shiny balls apart, no matter how hard it was. Savage Hulk can lift whatever Mindless Hulk can lift. He just has to be angry to do so.

What is also true about the matter-antimatter attraction feat is that Hulk would never experience a strength increase like that in a fight. Hulk's strength increased to near infinite levels at that because Hulk needed to. In a fight against Thor, Hulk just needs to get stronger than Thor, not strong enough to resist the matter-antimatter attraction. The feat just shows that there are no limits to the level of strength Hulk can attain.

Understand that there is a finite amount of energy in the universe. It wouldn't matter if Superman absorbed energy from cows. There is a limited amount of energy, period. There is no limitless amount of energy that can afford Superman limitless strength, regardless of how much he can absorb.

I'm not contradicting myself. The angrier Hulk is, the easier it is for him to gain a strength increase. When attempting to lift a massive weight, it doesn't matter exactly how mad Savage Hulk is. It may be more difficult for him to do so than say, Mindless Hulk, but as long as he's angry, he will be able to become strong enough to lift it.

Hulk resisting the matter-antimatter attraction doesn't show that his strength can become greater than infinity; there's no such thing. It shows that he can resist a force of infinte magnitude because he can continue increasing without ever stopping, like infinity, and that his strength isn't bound by the laws of physics.

The Beyonder probed Mindless Hulk and saw found a source of infinite power within him. Mindless Hulk was strong enough to wrestle the Beyonder, who also had* limitless strength, to a standstill.

It' important to note that Hulk would never get as strong as he was when he was resisting the matter-antimatter attraction during a fight. Hulk getting ticked off because he's in a fight wouldn't cause his strength to jump to infinite levels. The only reason Savage Hulk became as infinitely strong as he did when he resisted the matter-antimatter attraction was that he absolutely had to. Had Spiderman not taunted him, making him angry, he wouldn't have been able to.

In a fight, Hulk's strength increases behave much differently. When Savage Hulk gets mad, he gets stronger than his opponent. As long as he stays angry, he contiues getting stronger in bursts until the battle ends. Concievably, Hulk getting angrier would cause the bursts to occur at greater frequency, or at greater magnitude, but the important fact is that Hulk's strength doesn't gradually build. He flips out, and suddenly, he's stronger than the opposition. If the fight continues, Hulk will mantain his anger, or become even angrier, which would result in more radical strength increases, until he calms down, or is defeated.

Demi, it's important to note that Hulk would never get as strong as he was when he was resisting the matter-antimatter attraction during a fight. Hulk getting ticked off because he's in a fight wouldn't cause his strength to jump to infinite levels. The only reason Savage Hulk became as infinitely strong as he did when he resisted the matter-antimatter attraction was that he absolutely had to. Had Spiderman not taunted him, making him angry, he wouldn't have been able to.

In a fight, Hulk's strength increases behave much differently. I think we may have misunderstood each other on this subject, demi. In a fight, yes, Hulk's level of anger does matter. Much moreso than it does when Hulk is trying to lift something heavy. When Savage Hulk flips out, his strength increases geometrically. This may or may not make him stronger than his opponent, depending on his opponent's strength level. In Superman's case, considering the fact that their strength levels are close, or perhaps even equal, it would make Hulk stronger than him. As the anger is substained, it will grow as Hulk becomes more and more frustrated. As the anger level increases, Hulk will keep getting stronger in greater quantities. If the anger decreases, Hulk will start to lose power. In a sense, you are right.

However, there is a reason why Hulk doesn't require "infinite rage" for Hulk to attain any level of strength. There isn't any limit to how much Hulk's strength can increase in one burst, and there isn't any limit to the number of bursts he can undergo.

In a fight against Superman, Savage Hulk couldn't just get mad and gain infinite strength. Hulk only gains strength as it is needed. He could, however, increase his strength exponentially by getting angrier, becoming much stronger than Superman.

It is believable that Hulk COULD get stronger than Superman, potentially. But Superman would win most any conflict between the two as The Man of Steel brings much more dynamics to a fight than strength. And in normal circumstances, as unless otherwise stated with a specific increase, Superman is drawn more consistantly to be far stronger than Hulk and is considered stronger than Hulk via Forum rules.

Originally posted by Juntai
It is believable that Hulk COULD get stronger than Superman, potentially. But Superman would win most any conflict between the two as The Man of Steel brings much more dynamics to a fight than strength. And in normal circumstances, as unless otherwise stated with a specific increase, Superman is drawn more consistantly to be far stronger than Hulk and is considered stronger than Hulk via Forum rules.

Given the time, Hulk WOULD grow stronger than Superman. I agree that Superman would win in most encounters.

Superman is consistently portrayed as being far stronger than Hulk? That depends on which incarnation of the Hulk you're referring to. Superman may be stronger than the regular Green Hulk who appears in most of Hulk's comics, but Savage Hulk, at his normal power level, is consistently portrayed being is every bit as strong as Superman is. An angry Savage Hulk is even stronger.

The forum rules say Superman is stronger than Hulk? 😬

"It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."

Average Superman is consistantly written as stronger than Average Hulk. Meaning Superman is stronger than Hulk is.

I posted this a couple of pages ago, and it really sums up the whole "Who's stronger Hulk or Superman" argument:

Superman, having a ridiculous amount of strength compared to most character, is a bit stronger than most incarnations of the Hulk, all of which would be considered to be very strong characters in the Marvel Universe. Savage Hulk at normal strength and Superman at normal strength are approximately at the same level of strength. It's just that Superman has so many other powers that give him the edge. Hulk can't push a planet into a wormhole, because he can't fly, not because he isn't strong enough to. Hulk can, however, knock a planet out of it's orbit, or obliterate it with a single strike. Savage Hulk, one of Hulk's most powerful incarnations, is consistently shown to have feats of strength that are on par with Superman, at his normal, unagitated state.

In terms of strength:

Hulk (Grey, Merged, Professor) <<< Superman
Savage Hulk = Superman
Savage Hulk < Sundipped Supeman
Angry Savage Hulk > Superman
Angry Savage Hulk = Sundipped Superman
Angry Savage Hulk < Pre-crisis Superman
Very Angry Savage Hulk > Sundipped Superman
Very Angry Savage Hulk = Pre-Crisis Superman
Mindless Hulk > Pre-Crisis Superman

Superman Prime isn't on the list, but Hulk could potentially meet and exceed even his strength level, whatever that may be.

Originally posted by Juntai
"It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."

Average Superman is consistantly written as stronger than Average Hulk. Meaning Superman is stronger than Hulk is.

I suppose that in a way you're right. Superman is consistently portrayed as being stronger than an average Hulk. Hmm...

But average Hulk doesn't have limitless potential for strength. Grey Hulk, Professor Hulk, and Merged Hulk all have limits on how strong they can get. Only Savage Hulk has limitless potential for strength... 🙁

I guess we can say that Hulk is potentially stronger than Superman.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I posted this a couple of pages ago, and it really sums up the whole "Who's stronger Hulk or Superman" argument:

Superman, having a ridiculous amount of strength compared to most character, is a bit stronger than most incarnations of the Hulk, all of which would be considered to be very strong characters in the Marvel Universe. Savage Hulk at normal strength and Superman at normal strength are approximately at the same level of strength. It's just that Superman has so many other powers that give him the edge. Hulk can't push a planet into a wormhole, because he can't fly, not because he isn't strong enough to. Hulk can, however, knock a planet out of it's orbit, or obliterate it with a single strike. Savage Hulk, one of Hulk's most powerful incarnations, is consistently shown to have feats of strength that are on par with Superman, at his normal, unagitated state.

In terms of strength:

Hulk (Grey, Merged, Professor) <<< Superman
Savage Hulk = Superman
Savage Hulk < Sundipped Supeman
Angry Savage Hulk > Superman
Angry Savage Hulk = Sundipped Superman
Angry Savage Hulk < Pre-crisis Superman
Very Angry Savage Hulk > Sundipped Superman
Very Angry Savage Hulk = Pre-Crisis Superman
Mindless Hulk > Pre-Crisis Superman

Superman Prime isn't on the list, but Hulk could potentially meet and exceed even his strength level, whatever that may be.

Originally posted by Juntai
It's a decent assessment, I won't bother to argue your opinion. But we've yet to really see the limit of either character.

My opinion is open to criticism. 😉

The problem is that there's a limitation to the very nature of Superman's power. He can increase his strength by absorbing a limitless amount of sunlight, but the problem with that is that he doesn't have a limitless source of yellow sunlight to draw from.

Hulk has shown that with his strength he can resist a force of infinite magnitude. The Beyonder confirmed that Hulk has an infinite power source inside of him. Ultimately, there's no feat of strength that tops Hulk resisting the matter antimatter attraction.

Even though Hulk can't become infinitely strong during a fight like he did when he resisted the matter anti-matter attraction, him doing so proves that there is no limit to how strong he can become. If you compare Hulk's best feat of strength to Superman's best, although Superman's feats may be more consistently powerful, Hulk's feat is greater than all of his feats.

If Superman can absorb limitless amounts of solar energy, he would be bad-ass if he had the quantum bands. Now those would give him limitless power.

<<Well, Superman isn't human either.>>

??

true enough, clearly. the point i was trying to make is that hulk is not subject to the normal human/physical laws as regards his strength. however strong he may get, supes IS bound by physcial laws of the universe. i know cc has said this but it bears repeating -- the source of hulk's strength is without limit ie - infinite. and as the hulk it seems he is (at least at times) capable of reaching near infinite levels while no human could psychically achieve the sort of emotional level required to reach such levels of strength without their minds or bodies shutting down.

that's a way i've looked at hulk in the past. not only is he capable of far greater strength than humans, he is capable of reaching pinnacles of emotion humans cannot, whatever those emotions may be -- anger, frustration, fear, another one i think may be pride -- if hulk is 'dared' or challenged he usually rises to the occasion though no real anger is involved -- ie the antimatter scene. there are many instances in hulk's past that show it is not NECESSARILY anger alone that drives him. the levels of emotion he reaches would logically kill a normal human, or break their minds through madness or disassociation. hulk's emotions are those that exist BEYOND the normal human breaking point, and as such should be viewed differently from our own because we CANNOT reach them.

in effect, if something in the universe is said to be truly impossible to lift for physical reason, it is conceiveable hulk could STILL lift it.

<<If Superman can absorb limitless amounts of solar energy, he would be bad-ass if he had the quantum bands. Now those would give him limitless power.>>

yeah, super-keeper would be retardely powerful . . .

What about the Devil Hulk vs Superman?

Demi, when you read this, don't bother responding to my earlier posts. They will sound a bit scattered. The argument was fruitless, as we were coming to a moot point. I was just making things more complicated than the need to be, and confusing my self. I made several contradictory statements.

The original question wasn't whether or not Hulk could lift more than Superman. It was whether Hulk had the strength advantage in a fight.

Here's my argument in a well thought out, well worded statement:

Hulk increasing his strength while trying to lift something heavy is a different matter than Hulk increasing his strength in battle. Hulk can become as strong as he needs to be to lift something, simply by getting angry. It doesn't work like that in a fight. Hulk might be able to exercises infinite strength when resisting the matter-antimatter attraction, but that doesn't mean that he can gain that type of strength just because he gets a little upset.

In a fight, anger is a very important factor that affects Hulk's strength. Time is important as well. Savage Hulk can't instantly become stronger than any opponent. First he has to get mad. The madder Hulk is, the greater his strength increases will be. The longer his anger is sustained, the stronger he will become. There's no defined limit to how large those increases will be, but they become greater in magnitude as Hulk becomes angrier.

For example; If Savage Hulk faced Onslaught without Jean Grey using her telepathy to increase Hulk's rage, he wouldn't have been able to become strong enough to destroy Onslaught's body, because Onslaught would have destroyed him long before he could become a threat. However, by increasing Hulk's anger to insane levels, Jean allowed Hulk to reach and exceed Onslaught's level of strength in a very short period of time.

In combat, Savage Hulk's anger level and the length of the fight are key elements. The longer Hulk sustains a certain level of rage, the greater his strength increases. These increases aren't gradual nudges. When Savage Hulk is really pissed, the increases are exponential growths.

If Hulk doesn't calm down, which he wouldn't, unless he was affected by external circumstances, his strength continues to grow as the battle continues. Hulk wouldn't have any reason to instantly go crazy as though Superman had killed Betty, but Savage Hulk isn't a rational person. He would be getting angrier just because Superman was there, or because.

Superman may be able to absorb more solar energy as he becomes more stressed, but there is a point at which he would be absorbing sunlight at 100% efficiency, not to mention that the solar energy he's absorbing would also have to compensate for the energy he expends. The closest Superman can come to matching the phenomenon of Hulk's increasing strength is sundipping. Superman's energy is slowly consumed as he fights, while the Hulk's strength increases.

Savage Hulk and Superman are consistently shown to be in the same class of strength. If they start from the same point, and Superman gradually adds to his strength, while Hulk's strength is increasing exponentially, after an hour of fighting, Hulk would most certainly have become much stronger than Superman. That's why Hulk would have the strength advantage in this fight.

Originally posted by Ultimate Hulk43
What about the Devil Hulk vs Superman?

Devil Hulk isn't very strong at all. 😬
He's just annoying.

I think you mean Guilt Hulk. No one knows exactly how powerful it is, but it's uber.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Well, Superman isn't human either.>>

??

true enough, clearly. the point i was trying to make is that hulk is not subject to the normal human/physical laws as regards his strength. however strong he may get, supes IS bound by physcial laws of the universe. i know cc has said this but it bears repeating -- the source of hulk's strength is without limit ie - infinite. and as the hulk it seems he is (at least at times) capable of reaching near infinite levels while no human could psychically achieve the sort of emotional level required to reach such levels of strength without their minds or bodies shutting down.

that's a way i've looked at hulk in the past. not only is he capable of far greater strength than humans, he is capable of reaching pinnacles of emotion humans cannot, whatever those emotions may be -- anger, frustration, fear, another one i think may be pride -- if hulk is 'dared' or challenged he usually rises to the occasion though no real anger is involved -- ie the antimatter scene. there are many instances in hulk's past that show it is not NECESSARILY anger alone that drives him. the levels of emotion he reaches would logically kill a normal human, or break their minds through madness or disassociation. hulk's emotions are those that exist BEYOND the normal human breaking point, and as such should be viewed differently from our own because we CANNOT reach them.

in effect, if something in the universe is said to be truly impossible to lift for physical reason, it is conceiveable hulk could STILL lift it.

Great post, leo.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Well, Superman isn't human either.>>

??

true enough, clearly. the point i was trying to make is that hulk is not subject to the normal human/physical laws as regards his strength. however strong he may get, supes IS bound by physcial laws of the universe. i know cc has said this but it bears repeating -- the source of hulk's strength is without limit ie - infinite. and as the hulk it seems he is (at least at times) capable of reaching near infinite levels while no human could psychically achieve the sort of emotional level required to reach such levels of strength without their minds or bodies shutting down.

that's a way i've looked at hulk in the past. not only is he capable of far greater strength than humans, he is capable of reaching pinnacles of emotion humans cannot, whatever those emotions may be -- anger, frustration, fear, another one i think may be pride -- if hulk is 'dared' or challenged he usually rises to the occasion though no real anger is involved -- ie the antimatter scene. there are many instances in hulk's past that show it is not NECESSARILY anger alone that drives him. the levels of emotion he reaches would logically kill a normal human, or break their minds through madness or disassociation. hulk's emotions are those that exist BEYOND the normal human breaking point, and as such should be viewed differently from our own because we CANNOT reach them.

in effect, if something in the universe is said to be truly impossible to lift for physical reason, it is conceiveable hulk could STILL lift it.

Thats the first time I think I've heard someon articulate that argument...it shoots down the Hulk-Pessimist who claim Hulk has a limit to his anger.

I always like to challenge someone to finding an instance when Hulk wasnt strong enough to lift something or appeared to struggle? It doesnt happen; just as he did in the Secret Wars in lifting the mountain range, his strength will always rise to the occasion due to it being a stressful situation.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Thats the first time I think I've heard someon articulate that argument...it shoots down the Hulk-Pessimist who claim Hulk has a limit to his anger.

I always like to challenge someone to finding an instance when Hulk wasnt strong enough to lift something or appeared to struggle? It doesnt happen; just as he did in the Secret Wars in lifting the mountain range, his strength will always rise to the occasion due to it being a stressful situation.

I mean, if the writers say he has no limit to his anger, who are we to disagree?

But people always do that to Hulk. Until I came around, everyone thought that Hulk could only lift 70 tons, and that he had a 100 ton maximum. The writers say that Hulk has infinite potential strength, and that he has a source of infinite power within him. It's even substantiated in his comics. Yet, some people continue to be ignorant. All they can say is "No, he doesn't."

Hulk gets done dirty by this forum. That's the reason why I'm posting in this thread. I know that Superman wins in a fight against Hulk. I'm doing this to get Hulk some respect.

Here's how I see this fight. There are three possible outcomes of this fight. (None of these involve throwing Hulk into space.)

1. Hulk enters the fight calm. Superman speedblitzes him. Fight over. Superman victory. (This is the most likely outcome.)

2. Savage Hulk enters the fight pissed off. With increased durability, Hulk would be able to withstand Superman's speedblitz assaults. Superman would evade Hulk's attacks, and would avoid Hulk while evaluating the situation. Meanwhile, Hulk would be growing stronger at an exponential rate. From this point, two outcomes could occur.

2a. After a long period of trying to damage an insanely angry Savage Hulk, Superman discovers that anger is what is making Hulk more powerful. He leaves. Hulk eventually calms down, and reverts. If Superman wants to be an ass, he could come back at the last second and kill Banner, but that wouldn't be like him. Stalemate, or Superman victory. (cheap)

2b. Superman, as a result of CIS, chooses to try to outmuscle Hulk, as he has done many other powerhouses. Biggest mistake ever. Hulk victory.

The thing is, Savage Hulk could grow stronger than Superman quickly, but only if Superman allowed him to last that long. Superman's Superspeed is the clencher, and the reason why he wins 7-8/10 of these fights.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Here's how I see this fight. There are three possible outcomes of this fight. (None of these involve throwing Hulk into space.)

1. Hulk enters the fight calm. Superman speedblitzes him. Fight over. Superman victory. (This is the most likely outcome.)

2. Savage Hulk enters the fight pissed off. With increased durability, Hulk would be able to withstand Superman's speedblitz assaults. Superman would evade Hulk's attacks, and would avoid Hulk while evaluating the situation. Meanwhile, Hulk would be growing stronger at an exponential rate. From this point, two outcomes could occur.

2a. After a long period of trying to damage an insanely angry Savage Hulk, Superman discovers that anger is what is making Hulk more powerful. He leaves. Hulk eventually calms down, and reverts. If Superman wants to be an ass, he could come back at the last second and kill Banner, but that wouldn't be like him. Stalemate, or Superman victory. (cheap)

2b. Superman, as a result of CIS, chooses to try to outmuscle Hulk, as he has done many other powerhouses. Biggest mistake ever. Hulk victory.

The thing is, Savage Hulk could grow stronger than Superman quickly, but only if Superman allowed him to last that long. Superman's Superspeed is the clencher, and the reason why he wins 7-8/10 of these fights.