Superman vs. Hulk

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Demi. Buddy. Let's be fair.

Spiderman has witnessed Hulk supporting mountan ranges, closing Earthquake fissures, and doing impossible feats as a resident of the same world Hulk occupies. He's also a brilliant scientist, who knows his physics. Did you read what Spiderman says?

"It's incredible! He's actually moving them back, but only a few inches! Now he's holding his own! If he gets tired, even a little, we've had it!"

What was the feat meant to show, demi? Would there have to be a caption on the panel that says "- Hulk is currently exercising limitless strength" to convince you?

You are starting to sound a bit biased, demi. 😬

I'm being fair! I'd be amazed at EVERY huge stength feat someone had - it wouldn't desensitize me. It's not proof of infinite strength. But to be fair, CC, you can NEVER really prove it. 🙂

Look at it this way - if Hulk had moved Warworld in front of Spider-Man, would he be less amazed? 😉

Besides, if he could truly become "as strong as he wants" - he'd move them back more than a few inches - it seems in that that he did hit a wall, where the best he could do is hold it steady.

Originally posted by demigawd
I'm being fair! I'd be amazed at EVERY huge stength feat someone had - it wouldn't desensitize me. It's not proof of infinite strength. But to be fair, CC, you can NEVER really prove it. 🙂

Look at it this way - if Hulk had moved Warworld in front of Spider-Man, would he be less amazed? 😉

Besides, if he could truly become "as strong as he wants" - he'd move them back more than a few inches - it seems in that that he did hit a wall, where the best he could do is hold it steady.

Given that I found this thread on the second page, I don't think anybody is reading this anymore, hahaha.

How is the matter-anti-matter feat validated by Stan Lee? You should know, being a comicbook fan, that the writer's opinion of things just by statement don't mean as much as their actual feats. Stan Lee's account doesn't jibe with Hulk's history - if Hulk were just a manifestation of Bruce's imagination, it wouldn't account for the wave of Big Green Strong Monsters that come with exposure to gamma radiation - unless everybody has a big green monster as an imaginary friend. So Stan Lee's *view* of Hulk is contradicted by the 30+ years of other writer's opinions.

The part about Superman sucking energy didn't come from my imagination, as much as you'd like to...imagine. He sucked energy directly from his surroundings right in DKR - or are you now picking and choosing what evidence to disregard?

A microscopic black hole would have mass at least greater than of Mt. Everest. http://www.livescience.com/technology/10ways_destroyearth-8.html. By the way, I didn't say tons - I said tonnes. It's a different unit of measurements - about 10% greater than a ton. You do the math. But Mt. Everest is nearly 10 billion tons.

Beyond that, the black hole Superman dealt with would have to be larger than that in order to sustain itself for the length of time that it did. A black hole at minimum size would collapse upon itself almost instantly. For the length of time the black hole was there, we're looking at a mass hundreds of times that minimum threshold size - still microscopic, of course, but HUGE.

Superman held that in his hand. Hulk specifically mentioned that he wasn't lifting that mountain...he was bracing it. It's a significantly easier feat.

I think even if you were to divide moving the earth into three (though it's safe to say that Superman moved the lion's share), it's still a greater feat than anything the Hulk has short of the matter-anti-matter feat that I still find questionable. Ditto with the moon.

Now, if we're to validate Hulk's matter-anti-matter feat as a true example of defying something "infinite" then we'd also have to apply that to any character who has escaped the pull of a black hole. At its singularity, it exerts infinite pull, preventing anything from escaping. Superman, having escaped a black hole, displayed a feat of infinite strength. However, that means Hal, Silver Surfer, etc. have as well. I generally overlook that feat because I'm sure the writers didn't understand the implications of that. I see it likewise with Hulk's feat.

But I think you summed up my position best with this quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
First off, the Ngari demon was much, much stronger than Hulk. Hulk didn't have any reason to be unusually angry until he thought that the demon killed his friend. That caused an exponential increase in Hulk's strength.

That's basically what I'm saying - in order for Hulk to reach the level of mythical strength you're describing, Hulk needed to think the demon killed his friend. He was unable to reach that level of strength even after fighting for a long time. It took him having to get especially anger!. He couldn't do it against a DEMON, but he's going to do it against Superman??? CC, c'mon!

That was further proven when Jean had to turn Banner's mind off to reach Mindless Hulk - Savage Hulk, by your own admission, couldn't have reached the level of strength necessary to beat Onslaught. It wasn't simply "get mad, get strong", which is the conclusion you're erroneously trying to draw.

Listen, CC - I'm fundamenally agreeing with the concept that Mindless Hulk, when provoked sufficiently, can quickly reach levels of strength far greater than Superman in that same amount of time. My only three contentions from the very beginning are:

1)Superman has dynamic strength and unlimited absorption capabilities, giving him potentially infinite strength as well

2)Hulk wouldn't get mad enough against an opponent like Superman to create the quantum leap you've cited in examples

3)Superman's own dynamic strength could keep pace with Hulk's, making the former Hulk strength advantage moot (we can't calculate either rates per minute, so it's speculation on both our parts).

That leads me to believe that:

4)Superman's base strength advantage combined with his dynamic strength levels would, at the end of an hour, still give Superman a strength advantage over Hulk. barring some outside event unusually provoking Hulk - like Abom saying he killed Betty, or Hulk beliving the demon killed his friend, or Jean switching off Banner.

CC, I understand that you love the Hulk, but I think your desire to get the Hulk respect is blinding you to my points. I have no anti-Hulk agenda. I have no Superman bias. In fact, I rarely contribute anything to thread featuring either character. So clearly I'm not biased, though I'm afraid that you seeing bias in me is evidence of your bias.

Originally posted by olympian
"As I recall, Superman and Wonder Woman WERE able to lift the Spectre. I think there are even scans of it floating around on this board."

They didnt. Spectre was falling above them, they tried to stop the fall and couldnt. It was Kyle who did it alone, after.

"It's incredible! He's actually moving them back, but only a few inches! Now he's holding his own! If he gets tired, even a little, we've had it!"

...«now hes holding its own, but as soon as he gets tired, even a little, we had it»

and Spiderman says : « Unless of course if we cant keep the anti-mater spheres from coming together...»

And he changes tactics the next panel.

That Hulk was able to held his own against such force at first isent questionable. That he never had problems and that he could do it as long as he wanted is.

"Also to say that Hulk was smacking around Thor like a child is an EXTREME exaggeration of the events. Hulk had a definite edge, but smacking around like a child is waaaaaay off. It showed Hulk became stronger, and Thor became weaker - but the fight was still even, even after that. That's why I wouldn't credit Hulk with more than a 20% gain. In truth, it's probably less."

Is this about the fight where Hulk made a hostage and Thor fought without hammer? He didnt got weaker. He just got more hurt than Hulk did in the end. It wasent a win for either. They wer both up until the end fighting.

"I'm well aware of the advantages that Superman has. He can easily outmaneuver Hulk, and he has greater range and versatility. Normal Hulk COULD become as strong as Superman, or stronger. In Hulk's more powerful incarnations, he IS as strong as Superman, or even stronger. Strength is the only advantage Hulk would have in this fight. I just want people to understand that."

All true. The big problem here its Supes making Hulk a one dimensional character in comparation.

I say Hulk gets the majorty in a slugfest type, but in a straight lite, with all powers at theyr disposal, the majority literally flies to the other way.

Yes, that's the issue. Thor got physically WEAKER because he was hurt and tired. When you're hurt and tired, you become WEAKER - you can't exert the same kind of force. Meanwhile, Hulk was stronger than ever.

Hulk still couldn't dominate.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Demi, to determine whether Superman’s feats are greater than Hulk’s, or vice versa, we’d have to compile a list of feats for both of them. Set them apart into categories.

What’s Hulk’s greatest feat at base level strength?
What’s Superman’s greatest feat at base level strength
What’s Hulk’s greatest feat overall?
What’s Superman’s greatest feat overall?

You simply saying “Superman is stronger than Hulk,” and me replying “No, Hulk is stronger than Superman,’ won’t get us anywhere. We need to act like mature debatoes.

But more importantly, for the debate to continue, both of us have to be open to convincing. I have tried to be as open-minded as possible. When you bring up a feat, for Superman, I evaluate it for exactly what it is. It seems that when I bring up a feat for Hulk, you let your personal opinions affect your evaluation of it. I respect Superman as one of the greatest Superheroes and a tough guy for almost any Superhero to fight. I’m not sure if you respect Hulk in the same manner.

I don’t know what it is., but it almost seems like you’re trying to discredit Hulk. I’m not calling you a basher, but you seem to have acquired distaste for the green guy. I hope that isn’t the case. Some Hulk fans can be assholes, but I’m a Hulk fan, and I don’t think he’s unbeatable. In fact, I’ve admitted countless times that Superman wins this battle. The only reason I’m posting on this thread is Hulk simply doesn’t get the respect he deserves. I have a lot of respect for you as a debater, and I trust that you don’t have animosity towards Hulk, or Hulk fans. You’re better than this that. I know it.

Can we have a clean debate?

the problem with that and the reason doing this is unproductive is that for characters with dynamic strength, the feats to date don't matter - it's not necessarily evidence of their maximum. My declaration is that while Hulk has dynamic strength that can increase to infinity, so does Superman. Their feats don't really matter in this context. Superman was able to hold a black hole at base. Hulk was able to brace a mountain at base. After 15 minutes of getting mad or 15 minutes of being stressed, could they do that and more? Of course, even if we haven't seen those specific feats yet. See what I'm saying?

Sorry I'm writing in bursts here - I've been so unproductive in the beginning of the week between my drunken Halloween bash and this thread that I have to catch up with work before my weekend concert performance in DC. So after tomorrow I won't be on-line at all for awhile.

I'll say this, though - I think we've basically come to agree on most points. You're saying that Hulk has dynamic strength that can increase either progressively in a standard battle (most opponents) or immensely if provoked by some form of emotional trauma or artificial tampering (Abom, N'Gari demon, Onslaught). I'm saying that I share that view, and I always have, after you clarified your position on it.

You're also saying that Mindless and perhaps Savage Hulk has the *potential* to quickly surpass Superman in strength. I also agree, but it would take very specific circumstances - mainly either artificial tampering with Hulk's psyche or some form of emotional trauma (thinking a loved one was hurt by the opponent).

So with neither point that you're trying to make will I disagree. I think we can take that off the table.

What I'm saying - and tell me if YOU agree - is that against Superman, Hulk's "strengthometer" would be more like the former example than the latter example. That means most versions of Hulk would first have to get angry enough over time to catch Superman's strength, and then surpass it.

What I'm also saying is that four months ago, Ruin revealed that Superman also has dynamic strength in relation to stress level and an active absorption feature. During OWAW, it was likewise revealed that Superman has unlimited storage capacity. Superman Prime was said to have continuously absorbed solar energy for 15,000 years. During DKR, it was revealed that Superman has the (as yet) undiscovered ability to actively absorb energy from sources other than solar energy.

So my conclusion is that because Superman's strength is dynamic and Hulk's strength is dynamic, it's impossible to say who would become stronger over time in a battle under normal circumstances (no dead betty, no sun dip), because there's never been a calculation of just how much stronger one or the other becomes over a given period of time. Assuming the rate of strength increase is similar or identical (and we'll never know one way or the other), I give the edge to Superman ONLY because of his higher base strength, combined with his dynamic strength increases, keeping Hulk's own strength increases in check. Given what I've stated in the previous paragraph, I don't see how you can disagree with that.

If I don't get the chance to reply again (not that it matters since everybody's stopped reading this but us), I just wanted to make my overall position known and summarized.

Holy demi 4X

hahaha....it's stuff I'd been meaning to write, but I haven't been on-line as often as I would have liked this week (and after Friday may not be back until next week)...so it all comes out at once. Sorry!

And it's actually five straight posts.

well, I guess seven now. 😄

Originally posted by demigawd
hahaha....it's stuff I'd been meaning to write, but I haven't been on-line as often as I would have liked this week (and after Friday may not be back until next week)...so it all comes out at once. Sorry!

thanks man! Now I have to hurry up and reply to any other threads I've forgotten....

I think C-Master also wrote me a few days ago and I neglected that too. If I don't respond in a timely fashion, he gets a little sensitive, lol.

Originally posted by demigawd
thanks man! Now I have to hurry up and reply to any other threads I've forgotten....

I think C-Master also wrote me a few days ago and I neglected that too. If I don't respond in a timely fashion, he gets a little sensitive, lol.

Originally posted by demigawd
Sorry I'm writing in bursts here - I've been so unproductive in the beginning of the week between my drunken Halloween bash and this thread that I have to catch up with work before my weekend concert performance in DC. So after tomorrow I won't be on-line at all for awhile.

I'll say this, though - I think we've basically come to agree on most points. You're saying that Hulk has dynamic strength that can increase either progressively in a standard battle (most opponents) or immensely if provoked by some form of emotional trauma or artificial tampering (Abom, N'Gari demon, Onslaught). I'm saying that I share that view, and I always have, after you clarified your position on it.

You're also saying that Mindless and perhaps Savage Hulk has the *potential* to quickly surpass Superman in strength. I also agree, but it would take very specific circumstances - mainly either artificial tampering with Hulk's psyche or some form of emotional trauma (thinking a loved one was hurt by the opponent).

So with neither point that you're trying to make will I disagree. I think we can take that off the table.

What I'm saying - and tell me if YOU agree - is that against Superman, Hulk's "strengthometer" would be more like the former example than the latter example. That means most versions of Hulk would first have to get angry enough over time to catch Superman's strength, and then surpass it.

What I'm also saying is that four months ago, Ruin revealed that Superman also has dynamic strength in relation to stress level and an active absorption feature. During OWAW, it was likewise revealed that Superman has unlimited storage capacity. Superman Prime was said to have continuously absorbed solar energy for 15,000 years. During DKR, it was revealed that Superman has the (as yet) undiscovered ability to actively absorb energy from sources other than solar energy.

So my conclusion is that because Superman's strength is dynamic and Hulk's strength is dynamic, it's impossible to say who would become stronger over time in a battle under normal circumstances (no dead betty, no sun dip), because there's never been a calculation of just how much stronger one or the other becomes over a given period of time. Assuming the rate of strength increase is similar or identical (and we'll never know one way or the other), I give the edge to Superman ONLY because of his higher base strength, combined with his dynamic strength increases, keeping Hulk's own strength increases in check. Given what I've stated in the previous paragraph, I don't see how you can disagree with that.

If I don't get the chance to reply again (not that it matters since everybody's stopped reading this but us), I just wanted to make my overall position known and summarized.

actually I just read this... great stuff...

well done.

"Yes, that's the issue. Thor got physically WEAKER because he was hurt and tired. When you're hurt and tired, you become WEAKER - you can't exert the same kind of force. Meanwhile, Hulk was stronger than ever.

Hulk still couldn't dominate."

Demi if you mean weaker as "more battered " yes he was. My point was not weaker as an outside interference. Wich sometimes happens.

Ah, I see. I should have been clearer. No, I meant weaker as in more fatigued.

***Hey, CC - I was having trouble sleeping, so I woke up early and just started digging around the board, for no real reason. I stumbled upon the Hulk vs. Magneto thread, which is the first thread I ever posted on. I didn't realize a couple of things until I looked it over again today -

1)you and I registered only days apart and
2)you were the second person I ever responded to on the board (Alpha Centuri was the first). Funny it just so happened to be on the only other long Hulk thread in which I've ever participated.

And no, that's still not evidence of an anti-hulk bias, lol.

MAYBE the Hulk could beat Post-Crisis Superman but for him to even THINK about fighting Pre-Crisis Superman would be him also thinking about his funeral.

Originally posted by Ultimate Hulk43
MAYBE the Hulk could beat Post-Crisis Superman but for him to even THINK about fighting Pre-Crisis Superman would be him also thinking about his funeral.

Pre-crisis Superman doesn't exist anymore.

And almost nobody could beat him. He would turn Hulk into a pop-tart.

Originally posted by demigawd
Yes, that's the issue. Thor got physically WEAKER because he was hurt and tired. When you're hurt and tired, you become WEAKER - you can't exert the same kind of force. Meanwhile, Hulk was stronger than ever.

Hulk still couldn't dominate.

But he was, dominating, demi. He had beaten Thor to the point that he couldn't stand in just three punches.

Originally posted by demigawd
Given that I found this thread on the second page, I don't think anybody is reading this anymore, hahaha.

How is the matter-anti-matter feat validated by Stan Lee? You should know, being a comicbook fan, that the writer's opinion of things just by statement don't mean as much as their actual feats. Stan Lee's account doesn't jibe with Hulk's history - if Hulk were just a manifestation of Bruce's imagination, it wouldn't account for the wave of Big Green Strong Monsters that come with exposure to gamma radiation - unless everybody has a big green monster as an imaginary friend. So Stan Lee's *view* of Hulk is contradicted by the 30+ years of other writer's opinions.

The part about Superman sucking energy didn't come from my imagination, as much as you'd like to...imagine. He sucked energy directly from his surroundings right in DKR - or are you now picking and choosing what evidence to disregard?

A microscopic black hole would have mass at least greater than of Mt. Everest. http://www.livescience.com/technology/10ways_destroyearth-8.html. By the way, I didn't say tons - I said tonnes. It's a different unit of measurements - about 10% greater than a ton. You do the math. But Mt. Everest is nearly 10 billion tons.

Beyond that, the black hole Superman dealt with would have to be larger than that in order to sustain itself for the length of time that it did. A black hole at minimum size would collapse upon itself almost instantly. For the length of time the black hole was there, we're looking at a mass hundreds of times that minimum threshold size - still microscopic, of course, but HUGE.

Superman held that in his hand. Hulk specifically mentioned that he wasn't lifting that mountain...he was bracing it. It's a significantly easier feat.

I think even if you were to divide moving the earth into three (though it's safe to say that Superman moved the lion's share), it's still a greater feat than anything the Hulk has short of the matter-anti-matter feat that I still find questionable. Ditto with the moon.

Now, if we're to validate Hulk's matter-anti-matter feat as a true example of defying something "infinite" then we'd also have to apply that to any character who has escaped the pull of a black hole. At its singularity, it exerts infinite pull, preventing anything from escaping. Superman, having escaped a black hole, displayed a feat of infinite strength. However, that means Hal, Silver Surfer, etc. have as well. I generally overlook that feat because I'm sure the writers didn't understand the implications of that. I see it likewise with Hulk's feat.

But I think you summed up my position best with this quote:

That's basically what I'm saying - in order for Hulk to reach the level of mythical strength you're describing, Hulk needed to think the demon killed his friend. He was unable to reach that level of strength even after fighting for a long time. It took him having to get especially anger!. He couldn't do it against a DEMON, but he's going to do it against Superman??? CC, c'mon!

That was further proven when Jean had to turn Banner's mind off to reach Mindless Hulk - Savage Hulk, by your own admission, couldn't have reached the level of strength necessary to beat Onslaught. It wasn't simply "get mad, get strong", which is the conclusion you're erroneously trying to draw.

Listen, CC - I'm fundamenally agreeing with the concept that Mindless Hulk, when provoked sufficiently, can quickly reach levels of strength far greater than Superman in that same amount of time. My only three contentions from the very beginning are:

1)Superman has dynamic strength and unlimited absorption capabilities, giving him potentially infinite strength as well

2)Hulk wouldn't get mad enough against an opponent like Superman to create the quantum leap you've cited in examples

3)Superman's own dynamic strength could keep pace with Hulk's, making the former Hulk strength advantage moot (we can't calculate either rates per minute, so it's speculation on both our parts).

That leads me to believe that:

4)Superman's base strength advantage combined with his dynamic strength levels would, at the end of an hour, still give Superman a strength advantage over Hulk. barring some outside event unusually provoking Hulk - like Abom saying he killed Betty, or Hulk beliving the demon killed his friend, or Jean switching off Banner.

CC, I understand that you love the Hulk, but I think your desire to get the Hulk respect is blinding you to my points. I have no anti-Hulk agenda. I have no Superman bias. In fact, I rarely contribute anything to thread featuring either character. So clearly I'm not biased, though I'm afraid that you seeing bias in me is evidence of your bias.

I gave an explanation of how gamma rays have the said effect on their victim. It's a few pages back. Anyone who has gained powers as a result of gamma radiation gained them because of their subconscious mind. Don't act like I haven't explained this.

Since Stan Lee is the u]creator[/u] of the Hulk. His opinion outweighs yours, mine, or the opinion of any of the Hulk's other writers. Stan Lee's *view* is the Hulk's history. A short while ago, you said that the writer's idea of the feat means more than the actual feat. Now you're saying the opposite. Have you changed your mind?

What exactly is DKR? Was this normal Superman? Can you give an issue number on this? You seem to be a bit confused at what Superman can and cannot do, so with all due respect, I can't exactly trust your judgement. A few pages ago, you were telling me that he can lift at least half the weight of the universe. And since you've yet to prove that Superman has a strength advantage over Hulk to start with, your point is moot.

You don't exactly seem to have an in depth knowledge of physics, so I'll explain a few things to you. Black holes do NOT have infinite gravitational pull. I don't know where you heard this. Gravity acts over an infinite distance, so if a black hole had infinite gravity, the entire universe would collapse into it. The force of gravity depends on how close you are to the said object, and it's mass.

Regardless of what your opinion is, the comic says that it was a miniture black hole. Therefore, it was. A black hole has already collapsed upon itself. That's the definition of a black hole. A singularity of infinite density, but finite mass and gravitational pull. Please inform yourself before posting things like this, demi. I'm tired of correcting you.

I've since changed my position on that matter. Mindless Hulk never fought Onslaught. Savage Hulk did. In fact, at the beginning of the encounter, Hulk was Professor Hulk. Professor Hulk can't change into Savage Hulk by himself, so Jean used her power to turn him into Savage Hulk. Whether Jean was the source of the Savage Hulk's rage or not is debatable. Savage Hulk has shown in the past that he can reach such unstoppable states of rage by himself. He has no control over his anger whatsoever. Savage Hulk reaching that level of rage without external influence is not improbable.

Here are a few problems with your argument:

1) Superman does not, and cannot attain limitless amounts of strength. There is no infinite source of power that he can draw from.

2) Hulk has shown that he can become stronger than opponents far more powerful than himself, without any intervention or outside influence.

3) Superman hasn't shown in the past that without sundipping, he can become as strong as an angry Hulk. Hulk has feats that exceed sun-dipped Supes. Compare the two if you like. If angry Hulk has feats that far exceed Sundipped Supes's feats, what would lead you to believe that Superman's newfound dynamic strength increasing ability (which is clearly less efficient than sundipping,) would increase his strength at the same rate that Hulk increases his strength via anger? It's totally illogical.

Your entire argument rests on two points that you have yet to prove.

1) That Superman can drain power from a source.

2) That Superman starts off stronger than the Hulk.

I won't even get into the argument about whether or not he can store a limitless capacity of sunlight.

It seems that in every fight Hulk features in on this forum, people are compelled to use Hulk's absolute worst showings as a basis by which to define his power, rather that the way he's consistently portrayed. It's really unfair. If people always used Superman's worst showings as a means of defining his power, he would be considered far less powerful than he is today.

You are using one instance that most certainly does not override the consistent showings of Hulk being able to exceed his opponents strength by several folds. Hulk has fought beings like Galaxy Master, Zzax, and countless others, and he has never had a problem exceeding their level of strength, without any sort of plot device.

The force of attraction between matter and antimatter is infinite. Hulk was able to resist it. This proves that he can exert infinite strength, beyond the shadow of a doubt. And in the end, he was still strong enough to punch the orb into deep space. He showed that his strength supersedes the laws of physics. In all aspects of the word, limitless. Hulk has been said time and time again to have limitless, or infinite potential for strength. He shows a feat that proves it, and you try to downplay it? If that isn't bias, what is it?

My argument is clearly unbiased. If it were, my blinding love for the Hulk would compel me to say that he wins this fight. But it doesn't. My 'bias' compels me to try and get Hulk the respect he deserves. Respect you aren't giving him.