Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The same Kyp who was able to do the same thing Luke did to a black hole? Kyp is really good by NJO, second in the NJO.
Well...no. Jaina, Jacen and Anakin Solo are better than Kyp I think at least they have more raw potential. In terms of force skills many NJO people might be better than Dooku but I don't think that many of them would be able to surpass Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat.
Hey...Dooku had 8 decades of practice with force use and lightsaber combat where Luke had 3 decades and all other people 2 decades max of training. Of course they have some nice force powers but I doubt that would help them much against Dooku.
Is Kyp able to survive Sith Lightning ? Is Kyp able to outduel Dooku who was compareable to Mace Windu (a lightsaber prodigy) and Yoda ? I pretty much doubt that.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...no. Jaina, Jacen and Anakin Solo are better than Kyp I think at least they have more raw potential. In terms of force skills many NJO people might be better than Dooku but I don't think that many of them would be able to surpass Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat.Is Kyp able to survive Sith Lightning ? Is Kyp able to outduel Dooku who was compareable to Mace Windu (a lightsaber prodigy) and Yoda ? I pretty much doubt that.
Have you read all the NJO? Kyp's force potential is really high. Luke once said Kyp's potential was close to his own, but has said nothing like that towards Jacen, Jaina, or Anakin.
They have their own lightning in the NJO. Not only can they block it, they can throw it. Remember, NJO Jedi call upon the Darkside(if you can actually call them Jedi, that is). Remember that whole Unifying force thing? That allows Kyp to use Darkside powers. So Sith Lightning shouldn't be a problem.
In lightsaber combat, well, it seems like he would be good. He fought a war against enemies who use melee weapons as their primary weapon.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Have you read all the NJO? Kyp's force potential is really high. Luke once said Kyp's potential was close to his own, but has said nothing like that towards Jacen, Jaina, or Anakin.
Jacen, Jaina and Anakin were still Skywalkers. And Kyp's force potential being close to Luke's ? Whoever came up with that stuff should never think of writing SW books. Kyp failed trying to outduel one YV slayer where Luke took 7 of them at once. I don't call that "close".
They have their own lightning in the NJO. Not only can they block it, they can throw it. Remember, NJO Jedi call upon the Darkside(if you can actually call them Jedi, that is). Remember that whole Unifying force thing? That allows Kyp to use Darkside powers. So Sith Lightning shouldn't be a problem.
The ability to use lightning doesn't mean you can deflect it. Deflect / redirect and absorb energy are Jedi powers and require quite some skill level. Only people able to use deflect / redirect or absorb Sith Lightning are Mace, Yoda, Dooku and Sidious himself.
In lightsaber combat, well, it seems like he would be good. He fought a war against enemies who use melee weapons as their primary weapon.
He still lost against one of their better fighters and none of the YV had several decades experience in a fighting style designed to fight force users aimed with lightsabers like Dooku.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Jacen, Jaina and Anakin were still Skywalkers. And Kyp's force potential being close to Luke's ? Whoever came up with that stuff should never think of writing SW books. Kyp failed trying to outduel one YV slayer where Luke took 7 of them at once. I don't call that "close".
Luke had Jacen and Jaina with him. These Slayer dudes were good. They were able to be hit in the same place several times with a lightsaber and not be cut by it. Luke instakilled one of them. Plus, this is Luke we're talking about. Luke would waste Dooku. And Kyp having the raw power doesn't mean he has the skill. Could Anakin take Mace? No, but Anakin had far greater potential. Kyp has better training than Anakin though, giving him the edge to beat someone like Dooku.
The ability to use lightning doesn't mean you can deflect it. Deflect / redirect and absorb energy are Jedi powers and require quite some skill level. Only people able to use deflect / redirect or absorb Sith Lightning are Mace, Yoda, Dooku and Sidious himself.[/QUOTE]
So you're telling me Sith can't deflect lightning because that is a Jedi power? Okay then, I think I am going to join the reborn and learn how to use force lightning and go kill Marka Ragnos because he is a Sith and there is nothing he can do about it.
Seriously though, AOTC Obi-wan blocked lightning with ease. If AOTC Obi-wan can do this, any Jedi Master pretty much can.
He still lost against one of their better fighters and none of the YV had several decades experience in a fighting style designed to fight force users aimed with lightsabers like Dooku. [/QUOTE]
Melee is melee. It's not going to charge to much from one group to the next. Even if it is different, watch European sword fighter fight a Japanese one. Although their styles are extrmely differet styles, they can both fight the other effectivly.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke had Jacen and Jaina with him. These Slayer dudes were good. They were able to be hit in the same place several times with a lightsaber and not be cut by it. Luke instakilled one of them. Plus, this is Luke we're talking about. Luke would waste Dooku. And Kyp having the raw power doesn't mean he has the skill. Could Anakin take Mace? No, but Anakin had far greater potential. Kyp has better training than Anakin though, giving him the edge to beat someone like Dooku.
a)
Luke did most of the work on his own and he killed them with one single lightsaber swing each.
b)
Kyp having better training than Anakin ? I think you're talking about Anakin Skywalker but he would have better training because he was trained in a time Lucas himself called the "Golden Age of the Jedi" under Jedi like Yoda or Mace Windu and had more than 1,000 hours of lightsaber sparring fights against Obi-Wan (according to the ROTS novel). Of course he has some force powers that seem to surpass what ROTS Anakin was able to do but he has to take Dooku with a lightsaber and if Obi-Wan and Anakin, both with 1,000+ hours of lightsaber practice fights and 3 years of war experience (including fights with people like Asajj Ventress and Dooku himself) can't take Dooku I don't think Kyp can do that.
So you're telling me Sith can't deflect lightning because that is a Jedi power? Okay then, I think I am going to join the reborn and learn how to use force lightning and go kill Marka Ragnos because he is a Sith and there is nothing he can do about it.Seriously though, AOTC Obi-wan blocked lightning with ease. If AOTC Obi-wan can do this, any Jedi Master pretty much can.
Deflect Sith Lightning is not a Jedi power. It's based on force defence. Do you think that Kyp's force defence is as good as that of Yoda and Mace ? When you have a look at the WotC SW RPG stats (which I hate but they are Lucas approved) Yoda's force defence is almost twice as good as the force defence of NJO Luke.
Of course Kyp can deflect Sith Lightning with his lightsaber (I guess he can) but what would stop Dooku from duelling Kyp with one hand (which is part of his style) and use Sith Lightning with the other hand (which he could as seen in AotC) ?
Melee is melee. It's not going to charge to much from one group to the next. Even if it is different, watch European sword fighter fight a Japanese one. Although their styles are extrmely differet styles, they can both fight the other effectivly.
Force users are different from normal melee combatants because they are simply faster, have better reactions and can perform actions that are impossible for a normal person. Do you think even the best swordfighter on earth would have a chance to defeat a Jedi / Sith with lightning fast reflexes (even if their weapons would be able to withstand lightsaber hits) ? I doubt it...
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a)
Luke did most of the work on his own and he killed them with one single lightsaber swing each.
That's an EU inconsistency.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
b)
Kyp having better training than Anakin ? I think you're talking about Anakin Skywalker but he would have better training because he was trained in a time Lucas himself called the "Golden Age of the Jedi" under Jedi like Yoda or Mace Windu and had more than 1,000 hours of lightsaber sparring fights against Obi-Wan (according to the ROTS novel). Of course he has some force powers that seem to surpass what ROTS Anakin was able to do but he has to take Dooku with a lightsaber and if Obi-Wan and Anakin, both with 1,000+ hours of lightsaber practice fights and 3 years of war experience (including fights with people like Asajj Ventress and Dooku himself) can't take Dooku I don't think Kyp can do that.
Anakin was trained by Mace and Yoda, but Kyp was trained by Luke and Luke is far more powerful than Mace or Yoda. Kyp started sparring as soon as he started his Jedi Training. Okay, it was about two weeks after, but he has sparred Jedi more than Anakin has. Now, I don't see Dooku fairing well against Kyp using only one hand, nor has Dooku ever been shown to be able to use lightning while lightsaber fighting. Anakin has three years war experince, Kyp has over ten years war experince. War experince is one of the reasons that NJO Jedi got so powerful so fast, they live in a state of War.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Deflect Sith Lightning is not a Jedi power. It's based on force defence. Do you think that Kyp's force defence is as good as that of Yoda and Mace ? When you have a look at the WotC SW RPG stats (which I hate but they are Lucas approved) Yoda's force defence is almost twice as good as the force defence of NJO Luke.
Yes, Kyp probably has force defense on their level. Even if he doesn't, does it matter. His force defense is FAR passed AOTC Obi-wans. Those stats suck. They are like the Clone Wars Cartoon, completly unreasonable.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Of course Kyp can deflect Sith Lightning with his lightsaber (I guess he can) but what would stop Dooku from duelling Kyp with one hand (which is part of his style) and use Sith Lightning with the other hand (which he could as seen in AotC) ?
Dooku hasn't shown the ability to do that while fighting with a lightsaber. Kyp favors heavy power in his strikes. There is no way Dooku will be able to block his attacks with one hand. The ROTS novel says that Makashi users suffer from the lack of ability to generate a lot of physical power, and that's at least as reputable as any stats you can give for them.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Force users are different from normal melee combatants because they are simply faster, have better reactions and can perform actions that are impossible for a normal person. Do you think even the best swordfighter on earth would have a chance to defeat a Jedi / Sith with lightning fast reflexes (even if their weapons would be able to withstand lightsaber hits) ? I doubt it...
Nai, Echani. Mandalorians. Yuuzhan Vong. All are non-force users and all have killed Jedi in melee. (actually, I'm not sure in the Echani have.) On Earth, it's certainly possible. The forc isn't the only way to detect people's movements. Now, the best human against a common Jedi, the human would have a chance. Against Kyp or Dooku, you are right, no chance.
I wrote this story a while back. It fits this thread, so I'm just going to post it here. I hope you like it.(Nai, please don't accuse me of trying to use this as an argument, it isn't one.)
Kyp Durron hotfooteded Anakin, driving the Jedi Knight back several steps. Both were powerful practitioners of Shem Jo, the fifth style of lightsaber combat. Their blades clashed with incredible fury; the power of each stroke incredible.
Both were rebellious and both believed in aggression as a method of keeping the peace. Both had harsh childhoods and both were orphans. Both had incredible raw force potential. Anakin had more force potential though. Kyp was smarter though. Anakin had more training, but Kyp had spent more time in War, making him extremely though. The hundreds of melee battles he fought in the Yuuzhan Vong War made him impressive in blade skills.
Anakin channeled every bit of the Force he could into each strike. Kyp put enough power into his swings to block Anakin, but added more technique into his strikes. Kyp knew of the Darkside and how to harness it. He did.
Pulsing with power, Kyp unleashed a bone shattering onslaught that Anakin could barely defend against. Anakin was a servant of the Living Force. Every time Kyp hit him with lightning, he released into back into the Fiving Force. Whenever Kyp tried to use the Force to Push Anakin, that also was released into the Living Force.
Anakin understood that Kyp wasn’t a true Jedi; that none of the Order his Son had created were. That they believed in what was wrong. That they used the ends to justify the means when it suited them. That they called upon the Darkside. That they must be stopped. Kyp, a powerful member of the New Order would be missed. He had to defeat him.
Releasing more of himself into the force, Anakin once again increased the power behind his attacks. The flow of the force flowed through him. It guided his arms, his legs, his mind. The increased fury came as a surprise to Kyp, forcing Kyp to call more upon the Unifying Force.
So similar people; so different beliefs.
As they exchanged strikes, Anakin lost himself in the flow of the Force only to be suddenly brought back from it by a solid kick to jaw; Kyp’s boot imprinted his face. Kyp took this moment of confusion to lift Anakin in a Force Grip. Clenching his fist, he squeezed the boys body with his will power.
Gasping for air, Anakin became confused, almost frantic. Suddenly something called to him. He wasn’t sure what it was at first, but after a few seconds of think about it, he realized it must be what Master Windu described as a Shatterpoint. It was the first time he had ever seen one. Barely moving his hand, Anakin threw the small container into Kyp’s knee at near terminal velocity.
The knee snapped in what sounded like a permanent break. Enraged, Kyp threw his lightsaber at Anakin with a Force-enhanced throw. Anakin managed to break Kyp’s grip with less than a second to spare and barely dodged the strike.
He then rushed Kyp and with a wide swing he cut a ditch an inch deep into Kyp’s chest. Doing this allowed Kyp, with the power of the Force, to bring his blade through Anakin, stabbing through his back and coming out of his chest. A few seconds later, Anakin Skywalker, the Chose One, fell to the ground dead.
this is kinda off topic or maybe its just utterly wrong. to me the NJO jedi don't have the proper fighting techniques. like the jedi of th PT era actually had forma and masters of each form that had been taught to others and such. Luke in no way could teach his students the 7 forms. he just doesnt know them. and even if ben or yoda explained them to him so what you could explain it to anyone but that doesnt make them able to teach it. that does make sense right? well i hope so but thats just a point i wanted to share. i'd say dooku wins. better knowledge of the force and is one great fighter.
ya kyp may have fought in harsh wars but that doesnt make his style of fighting that good and he wasnt fighting other force users on par with dooku's lvl
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That's an EU inconsistency.
No. It isn't. It's a display of force aided physical strength. And you can even see that in the films. In ROTS Dooku is able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand (he's holding his lightsaber in a horizontal position while Obi-Wan and Anakin hit it from above) while he was using both hands against Yoda when engaging in a saberlock and Yoda still pushed him back.
Anakin was trained by Mace and Yoda, but Kyp was trained by Luke and Luke is far more powerful than Mace or Yoda. Kyp started sparring as soon as he started his Jedi Training.
Kyp started sparring as soon as he started Jedi Training ? Did you notice that Luke was the only person having a lightsaber in the Jedi Academy ? At the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy they had two lightsabers: Luke's and the one Gantoris constructed.
Okay, it was about two weeks after, but he has sparred Jedi more than Anakin has.
Why the hell would Kyp have sparred Jedi more than Anakin has considering the fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi in the time from TPM to AotC and much less in Kyp's time ?
Now, I don't see Dooku fairing well against Kyp using only one hand, nor has Dooku ever been shown to be able to use lightning while lightsaber fighting. Anakin has three years war experince, Kyp has over ten years war experince. War experince is one of the reasons that NJO Jedi got so powerful so fast, they live in a state of War.
Using one hand is part of Dooku's style and when he can deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan at once why would he not be able to fight well against Kyp ?
And the reason the NJO Jedi got so powerful is that they don't limit themselves much with "moral" issues (using both sides of the force) and Luke discovered some sources the Jedi didn't have (the entire "making stuff invisible thing" or "creating illusions"😉.
Yes, Kyp probably has force defense on their level.
How would he ?
Dooku hasn't shown the ability to do that while fighting with a lightsaber. Kyp favors heavy power in his strikes. There is no way Dooku will be able to block his attacks with one hand. The ROTS novel says that Makashi users suffer from the lack of ability to generate a lot of physical power, and that's at least as reputable as any stats you can give for them.
You don't have to generate physical power to counter physical power. Being a fencer like Dooku you would simply redirect the physical power. Hell...if you try to counter physical power with physical power with "normal" blades the result will be some broken weapons.
Nai, Echani. Mandalorians. Yuuzhan Vong. All are non-force users and all have killed Jedi in melee. (actually, I'm not sure in the Echani have.)
Give me the name of one single Echani, Mandalorian or non-force user that did kill a Jedi in direct melee combat...In fact in every single situation somebody is talking of a non-force-user fighting a Jedi the non-force-user get creamed (Yusanis, Mandalore) unless they use assasination tactics (Atton, HK-47). So ?
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No. It isn't. It's a display of force aided physical strength. And you can even see that in the films. In ROTS Dooku is able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand (he's holding his lightsaber in a horizontal position while Obi-Wan and Anakin hit it from above) while he was using both hands against Yoda when engaging in a saberlock and Yoda still pushed him back.
So what if he blocked Obi-wan and Anakin. I am saying that Kyp is more powerful than either of them.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Kyp started sparring as soon as he started Jedi Training ? Did you notice that Luke was the only person having a lightsaber in the Jedi Academy ? At the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy they had two lightsabers: Luke's and the one Gantoris constructed.
I guess you haven't read the book. Corran had one, as well as Mara and Kam. Luke had mutiple, which it makes sense that he used them to have his students spar.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Why the hell would Kyp have sparred Jedi more than Anakin has considering the fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi in the time from TPM to AotC and much less in Kyp's time ?
Less Jedi, but more sparring. He can spar the same Jedi twice.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Using one hand is part of Dooku's style and when he can deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan at once why would he not be able to fight well against Kyp ?
And the reason the NJO Jedi got so powerful is that they don't limit themselves much with "moral" issues (using both sides of the force) and Luke discovered some sources the Jedi didn't have (the entire "making stuff invisible thing" or "creating illusions"😉.
Because Kyp is more powerful than either of them. That isn't the sole reason. Much of it can in fact be contributed to their experince in war. Reguarless, even you agree NJO Jedi are extremely powerful.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
How would he ?
Because he has the raw power and the training.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
You don't have to generate physical power to counter physical power. Being a fencer like Dooku you would simply redirect the physical power. Hell...if you try to counter physical power with physical power with "normal" blades the result will be some broken weapons.
You're not going to break a lightsaber blade. And show that Dooku can redirect power more easily than Kyp can generate it.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Give me the name of one single Echani, Mandalorian or non-force user that did kill a Jedi in direct melee combat...In fact in every single situation somebody is talking of a non-force-user fighting a Jedi the non-force-user get creamed (Yusanis, Mandalore) unless they use assasination tactics (Atton, HK-47). So ?
The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi. Actually, they fought two. You think that because I don't have any names, they never killed a Jedi? We've seen them praticing with blades, they do use them against them.
Non-force user. Okay. Over fifty Jedi were killed by Vong, one of which was a Old Republic Jedi.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So what if he blocked Obi-wan and Anakin. I am saying that Kyp is more powerful than either of them.
He parried them both at the same time. Do you want to tell me that Kyp is stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together ?
I guess you haven't read the book. Corran had one, as well as Mara and Kam. Luke had mutiple, which it makes sense that he used them to have his students spar.
And I guess you didn't read my post. You said that Kyp started practicing against other Jedi when he started his training (Jedi Academy trilogy) and there are only two lightsabers on Yavin 4 at that time. One being Luke's lightsaber and the other one was built by Gantoris. Period.
Less Jedi, but more sparring. He can spar the same Jedi twice.
Oh great. Proof that he went to more than 1,000 hours of sparing completely ignoring the fact that Luke wasn't focused on lightsaber combat as much as the PT Jedi. And even if you can proof that - had he ever fought people like Mace (a lightsaber prodigy), Yoda, Anakin or Obi-Wan ? I doubt that.
Because he has the raw power and the training.
People having more training and more raw power (Anakin) are nowhere near Mace or Yoda in terms of force defence but Kyp is ?
You're not going to break a lightsaber blade. And show that Dooku can redirect power more easily than Kyp can generate it.
Redirecting power can be done by simply positioning the blade in a certain degree. If Dooku had problems with Anakin (who has a mechanical arm and is stronger than Kyp - note that he was holding the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Palpatine during their escape from the Invisible Hand with that arm) he would have used both hands - and he didn't. And if the novel contradicts the movie the movie is right. Sorry...
The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi. Actually, they fought two. You think that because I don't have any names, they never killed a Jedi? We've seen them praticing with blades, they do use them against them.
The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi and republic troops. Yes. We see them practicing with blades in KotoR 2 and then the best of the Mandalorian Champions (!) tells us that he wasn't able to overcome a Jedi in direct confrontation during the war. Hmm...so who would be able to do that when the champs can't do it. Mandalore himself ?
Non-force user. Okay. Over fifty Jedi were killed by Vong, one of which was a Old Republic Jedi.
Killed by people wearing armours that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, can't be affected by the force and wield weapon that can withstand lightsaber hits ? The Vong aren't "the biggest threat the galaxy has ever seen" without a reason...
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He parried them both at the same time. Do you want to tell me that Kyp is stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together ?
Yes, that is what I am saying. Dooku is more powerful than both of them, and I'm saying Kyp is more powerful than Dooku. Add it up.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And I guess you didn't read my post. You said that Kyp started practicing against other Jedi when he started his training (Jedi Academy trilogy) and there are only two lightsabers on Yavin 4 at that time. One being Luke's lightsaber and the other one was built by Gantoris. Period.
Corran and Kam both got there before him. There were more than just two lightsabers! Where did you get that crap?
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Oh great. Proof that he went to more than 1,000 hours of sparing completely ignoring the fact that Luke wasn't focused on lightsaber combat as much as the PT Jedi. And even if you can proof that - had he ever fought people like Mace (a lightsaber prodigy), Yoda, Anakin or Obi-Wan ? I doubt that.
Prove that Luke as focused on lightsaber combat as PT Jedi. He had them sparring within two weeks of getting there! That's faster than any PT Jedi. Yes, he did fight powerful people. He fought Luke, Jacen, Corran, Kyle. Any of those people could give Anakin or Obi-wan a very hard time, and he beat them all.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
People having more training and more raw power (Anakin) are nowhere near Mace or Yoda in terms of force defence but Kyp is ?
Please read your post. It sounds stupid. Since when does Anakin have more training than Kyp? And Anakin's power doesn't seem like it was far above Kyp's. Anakin has 13 years. Kyp has 19 years. Kyp advanced more in two weeks than the other students did in six. Anakin didn't seem to be advancing three times as fast as everyone around him. Now, Kyp probably slowed down after a while. Anakin proably didn't slow down as soon. Still, Kyp has six years more training. Six more years of Luke's training, which allows students to gain power more quickly than the PT Jedi did, but also pushes them closer to the Darkside.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Redirecting power can be done by simply positioning the blade in a certain degree. If Dooku had problems with Anakin (who has a mechanical arm and is stronger than Kyp - note that he was holding the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Palpatine during their escape from the Invisible Hand with that arm) he would have used both hands - and he didn't. And if the novel contradicts the movie the movie is right. Sorry...
Anakin held all three of them in the Clone Wars Cartoon. This is preposterous to use in debates because even though it is Lucas approved, it goes agains the movies. Mace as seen in the Clone Wars could have killed every droid on Geonosis by himself. They are vastly exxagerated in that.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi [b]and republic troops. Yes. We see them practicing with blades in KotoR 2 and then the best of the Mandalorian Champions (!) tells us that he wasn't able to overcome a Jedi in direct confrontation during the war. Hmm...so who would be able to do that when the champs can't do it. Mandalore himself ? [/B]
Look at it another way. A Mandalorian was able to give Ulic fits. Ulic is a TON more powerful than Dooku. I woudn't be surprised if Ulic could take Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-wan by himself. The fact that a Mandalorian, any non-force user for that matter, gave Ulic difficulty is AMAZING. We're talking a guy who could take Yoda.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Killed by people wearing armours that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, can't be affected by the force and wield weapon that can withstand lightsaber hits ? The Vong aren't "the biggest threat the galaxy has ever seen" without a reason...
You just argued for Kyp. Him killing so many of them is testament to his power.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes, that is what I am saying. Dooku is more powerful than both of them, and I'm saying Kyp is more powerful than Dooku. Add it up.
I was talking about physical strength. Not power.
Corran and Kam both got there before him. There were more than just two lightsabers! Where did you get that crap?
Read the Jedi Academy trilogy and count how many lightsabers are used there. Always comes down to Luke's and the one Gantoris used. How would Corran Horn have a lightsaber before starting training in the academy - he was a fighter pilot in the Rogue Squadron. For Kam I'm not sure but the only people fighting with lightsabers in the JA trilogy are Luke and Gantoris (Luke defeats Gantoris), Jacen (killing beasts using Luke's lightsaber) and two of Luke's students (using Gantoris and Luke's lightsaber to overcome Kun).
If you just didn't realize it: Building your own lightsaber was the last test before becoming a Jedi Knight so non of Luke's student did have a lightsaber and I don't remember any "practice fights" in the JA trilogy.
Prove that Luke as focused on lightsaber combat as PT Jedi. He had them sparring within two weeks of getting there! That's faster than any PT Jedi. Yes, he did fight powerful people. He fought Luke, Jacen, Corran, Kyle. Any of those people could give Anakin or Obi-wan a very hard time, and he beat them all.
Where did Luke made his students sparring eachothers ? And when did Kyp fight all those people ?
Please read your post. It sounds stupid. Since when does Anakin have more training than Kyp? And Anakin's power doesn't seem like it was far above Kyp's. Anakin has 13 years. Kyp has 19 years. Kyp advanced more in two weeks than the other students did in six. Anakin didn't seem to be advancing three times as fast as everyone around him. Now, Kyp probably slowed down after a while. Anakin proably didn't slow down as soon. Still, Kyp has six years more training. Six more years of Luke's training, which allows students to gain power more quickly than the PT Jedi did, but also pushes them closer to the Darkside.
What the hell, Glentract ?
First off Anakin was trained for 10 years (before the Clone Wars started), while Kyp didn't really had that amount of "training". Yes he did advance fast but he hadn't Luke potential which is - by any logic - less than Anakin's.
And Anakin didn't advance fast ? He became Jedi Knight aftter 12 or 13 years of Jedi training (as fast as Mace, twice as fast compared to Obi-Wan himself) and was about to become a regular Council Member in the age of 22 (this is what Obi-Wan in ROTS told him and he would have been the youngest Council Member ever).
And Luke trained his students like Yoda trained him: That's basically a VERY compressed Jedi Training to give them some basics. Luke himself told Kyp that the ability to do something is all you need you have to understand what you doing. And you won't convince me that somebody with 2 decades of experience in force practice and lightsaber fighting practice would be superior to somebody who has 8 decades experience in both.
Anakin held all three of them in the Clone Wars Cartoon. This is preposterous to use in debates because even though it is Lucas approved, it goes agains the movies. Mace as seen in the Clone Wars could have killed every droid on Geonosis by himself. They are vastly exxagerated in that.
No. I said "during the escape from the invisible hand". He did that in ROTS (!) and not in the Cartoons. When they were running through the elevator shaft and the ship turned again you can see Anakin grabing on something with his mechanical hand while having Obi-Wan on his back and Palpatine hanging on them.
Look at it another way. A Mandalorian was able to give Ulic fits. Ulic is a TON more powerful than Dooku. I woudn't be surprised if Ulic could take Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-wan by himself. The fact that a Mandalorian, any non-force user for that matter, gave Ulic difficulty is AMAZING. We're talking a guy who could take Yoda.
Give me some proof that Ulic is more powerful than Dooku. Again somebody with less than 4 years of experience outclassing somebody with 8 decades of experience. Stop it.
You just argued for Kyp. Him killing so many of them is testament to his power.
He failed against a single YV slayer. And when Luke can kill them with a "force lightning like ability" what do you think Dooku would do ?
Look at it another way. A Mandalorian was able to give Ulic fits. Ulic is a TON more powerful than Dooku. I woudn't be surprised if Ulic could take Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-wan by himself. The fact that a Mandalorian, any non-force user for that matter, gave Ulic difficulty is AMAZING. We're talking a guy who could take Yoda.
Oh, please. A Mandalorian gave Ulic fits when another Mandalorian Champion couldn't overcome a Jedi? You realize that you just lowered Ulic's status?
And I would be very surprised indeed if Ulic could take this trio. Dooku alone would be a pain in the ass, and add a duo that gave Dooku himself trouble. . . You're going overboard with the Ulic stuff here.
Ulic would not take Yoda. he's good, no doubt. But I have extreme trouble believing that he can defeat a duelist who, unarmed, could evade blows from three Council members. Or simply overwhelm him with Force powers, considering the little green dude absorbed and reflected Force lightning at point-blank range.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
I was talking about physical strength. Not power.Alright. Misunderstanding on my part. You're right there.
[QUOTE=5200334]Originally posted by Nai Fohl
[B]Read the Jedi Academy trilogy and count how many lightsabers are used there. Always comes down to Luke's and the one Gantoris used. How would Corran Horn have a lightsaber before starting training in the academy - he was a fighter pilot in the Rogue Squadron. For Kam I'm not sure but the only people fighting with lightsabers in the JA trilogy are Luke and Gantoris (Luke defeats Gantoris), Jacen (killing beasts using Luke's lightsaber) and two of Luke's students (using Gantoris and Luke's lightsaber to overcome Kun).
I'm talking about "I, Jedi". Same place, same time. It's written by the same author too. It shows JA from another angle(Corran's) for the first 150 or so pages. Corran got the lightsaber from his grandfather, you was a Jedi in the Clone Wars. Kam had his when he was a Dark Jedi for the Empire. Mara also had a lightsaber wheh she went there.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
If you just didn't realize it: Building your own lightsaber was the last test before becoming a Jedi Knight so non of Luke's student did have a lightsaber and I don't remember any "practice fights" in the JA trilogy.
See above. Remember, these books were written before PT, so the authors thought that all Jedi were trained like Luke. They believed that they went into training with a lightsaber. For the pratice fights, read "I, Jedi". (It's a good book to. I would recommend it in anycase.)
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Where did Luke made his students sparring eachothers ? And when did Kyp fight all those people ?Kyp sparred Jedi during NJO. He never beat Luke(at least to my knowledge), but he was considered second only to Luke. We know he sparred them and we know he was considred better than them. That was a misstament on my part.
[QUOTE=5200334]Originally posted by Nai Fohl
[B]What the hell, Glentract ?
First off Anakin was trained for 10 years (before the Clone Wars started), while Kyp didn't really had that amount of "training". Yes he did advance fast but he hadn't Luke potential which is - by any logic - less than Anakin's.
And Anakin didn't advance fast ? He became Jedi Knight aftter 12 or 13 years of Jedi training (as fast as Mace, twice as fast compared to Obi-Wan himself) and was about to become a regular Council Member in the age of 22 (this is what Obi-Wan in ROTS told him and he would have been the youngest Council Member ever).
12 years isn't to amazing for becoming a Knight. Luke did it in four. Jorus did it in four. I don't know exactly how long it took Kyp, but it was less than 12 I believe.
And now Luke's training is no longer "training"? Kyp began training 11 A.B.Y. and NJO goes until about 30 A.B.Y.(Somewhere between 28-30 A.B.Y.). Lets go with the lover number, 17 years by the end of NJO. Dark Nest is another eight years after that. that's 25 years of training. All except that last eight years of this is War Time. Anakin has three years War Time against Kyp's 17. Even Dooku has less War Time than Kyp.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And Luke trained his students like Yoda trained him: That's basically a VERY compressed Jedi Training to give them some basics. Luke himself told Kyp that the ability to do something is all you need you have to understand what you doing. And you won't convince me that somebody with 2 decades of experience in force practice and lightsaber fighting practice would be superior to somebody who has 8 decades experience in both.
Luke began training them that way, but once their numbers expanded, they began taking Padawans like the old Order.
Look at it this way. Anakin advanced more in the three years of the Clone Wars than he did in the 10 years prior to that. Obi-wan advanced more in his three years in the Clone Wars than he did in the ten years before that. Now, Kyp has over five times their experince in War. It seems that War time training is FAR more effective than Temple training, which makes sense. It's similar to learning a language. I can learn more in a month in a foreign county than I can in a year in a class room.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No. I said "during the escape from the invisible hand". He did that in ROTS (!) and not in the Cartoons. When they were running through the elevator shaft and the ship turned again you can see Anakin grabing on something with his mechanical hand while having Obi-Wan on his back and Palpatine hanging on them.
Alright. Yes, Anakin did do that. The problem I have with this though is that puny little Luke still overpowered Anakin in ROTJ.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Give me some [b]proof that Ulic is more powerful than Dooku. Again somebody with less than 4 years of experience outclassing somebody with 8 decades of experience. Stop it. [/B]
It's Ulic. He stalemated Kun, nuff said.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He failed against a single YV slayer. And when Luke can kill them with a "force lightning like ability" what do you think Dooku would do ?
That was NJO Kyp, and it wasn't even at the end of the NJO. It's also not force lightning. It's more similar to Kreia's instakill technique than force lightning. Jacen or Jaina(I don't remember which) used force lightning against Vong and it didn't kill them. The techniques are obviously far different.
Show me proof Dooku could defeat a slayer.
One thing though, although I agree with you overall Nai. Mandelorians did kill Jedi in combat. Very few one on one perhaps none, but still they managed to take out Jedi in a fight. Melee fights even. Just means Jedi can be killed by none force users who use swords.
And even more important, Revan is famous for killing Mandalore and Yusanis. Why would he be famous for that if it doesn't mean anything?