Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Oh, please. A Mandalorian gave Ulic fits when another Mandalorian Champion couldn't overcome a Jedi? You realize that you just lowered Ulic's status?
The Mandalorian's were tattered at that point. Most of them were dead. Most of the bravest, most of the bravest, most powerful Mandalorians died at Malacor V. Revan must have had a hard time with the Mandalore he fought because it was so amazing that he defeated him. If Revan had walked in and slaughtered the Mandalore, it seems likely that they were near equal.
You can argue Revan is weak, but he defeated Malak on the Star Forge at least twice only using force powers while Malak had full force power capability.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
And I would be very surprised indeed if Ulic could take this trio. Dooku alone would be a pain in the ass, and add a duo that gave Dooku himself trouble. . . You're going overboard with the Ulic stuff here.
Ulic stalemated Exar. Exar defeated the spirit of an Ancient Sith and killed a lightsaber Grandmaster. The fight with Vodo wasn't even that close. Vodo is almost certainly better than Dooku, near definatly better than Obi-wan and Anakin.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Ulic would not take Yoda. he's good, no doubt. But I have extreme trouble believing that he can defeat a duelist who, unarmed, could evade blows from three Council members. Or simply overwhelm him with Force powers, considering the little green dude absorbed and reflected Force lightning at point-blank range.
Ulic's force powers are great. His Sith Amulet see's to that. Remember, these are PT Council Members, a far cry from Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War Council Members. We're getting non-topical here though. If you guys want to keep debating Ulic vs. the others, lets do it, but I'll drop it if you will.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'm talking about "I, Jedi". Same place, same time. It's written by the same author too. It shows JA from another angle(Corran's) for the first 150 or so pages. Corran got the lightsaber from his grandfather, you was a Jedi in the Clone Wars. Kam had his when he was a Dark Jedi for the Empire. Mara also had a lightsaber wheh she went there.
Damn. I missed a piece of EU literature...
12 years isn't to amazing for becoming a Knight. Luke did it in four. Jorus did it in four. I don't know exactly how long it took Kyp, but it was less than 12 I believe.
Now may I remember YOU that most of the EU was written before the PT ? In PT times 12 years were impressive considering Mace needed 13. And please...Luke can hardly be compared to PT Jedi in ROTJ.
And now Luke's training is no longer "training"? Kyp began training 11 A.B.Y. and NJO goes until about 30 A.B.Y.(Somewhere between 28-30 A.B.Y.). Lets go with the lover number, 17 years by the end of NJO. Dark Nest is another eight years after that. that's 25 years of training. All except that last eight years of this is War Time. Anakin has three years War Time against Kyp's 17. Even Dooku has less War Time than Kyp.
Still this is nothing compared to Dooku's 8 decades of training.
Luke began training them that way, but once their numbers expanded, they began taking Padawans like the old Order.
Yes. But Kyp was only trained that way because he was one of Luke's first students. And it's still very "compressed" training.
Look at it this way. Anakin advanced more in the three years of the Clone Wars than he did in the 10 years prior to that. Obi-wan advanced more in his three years in the Clone Wars than he did in the ten years before that. Now, Kyp has over five times their experince in War. It seems that War time training is FAR more effective than Temple training, which makes sense. It's similar to learning a language. I can learn more in a month in a foreign county than I can in a year in a class room.
That is really stupid considering the fact that they still had training in the temple during war times AND you won't get any inside from using a fighting technique on the battlefield - same counts for force powers.
Alright. Yes, Anakin did do that. The problem I have with this though is that puny little Luke still overpowered Anakin in ROTJ.
He was striking with brute force on Vader's lightsaber while Vader was lying on the ground and Vader still kept the weapon up...he didn't even move his arm. In ANH Vader is lifting one of the Rebels up with one arm and kill him even with that hand. There is some power behind that mechanics...
It's Ulic. He stalemated Kun, nuff said.
He stalemated Kun when Kun wasn't the great lightsaber duellist and Sith Lord he became later.
Show me proof Dooku could defeat a slayer.
Proof ? How should I since he never fought one ? Considering the fact that Dooku used a lightsaber style that is designed to be used against enemies with melee weapons and features extreme precision I would actually give him a better chance than Kyp to kill a slayer.
Revan must have had a hard time with the Mandalore he fought because it was so amazing that he defeated him. If Revan had walked in and slaughtered the Mandalore, it seems likely that they were near equal.
It was impressive for the Mandalorians. Hell...if I slaughter the best warrior you know you would still be impressed. That doesn't mean Mandalore and Revan were equal.
Remember, these are PT Council Members, a far cry from Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War Council Members.
Yes. The PT Jedi are superior compared to the JCW and GSW people in terms of force use and lightsaber combat.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now may I remember YOU that most of the EU was written before the PT ? In PT times 12 years were impressive considering Mace needed 13. And please...Luke can hardly be compared to PT Jedi in ROTJ.
Jorus was a PT Jedi and it took him four years. I don't get your first sentence. It doesn't matter when it was written, that is just how it is.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Still this is nothing compared to Dooku's 8 decades of training.
Kyp has over five times the War Experince. It's also closer than the Handmaiden vs. her Sisters, which together had more than 80 years of training vs. her 20 or so years. You can't base this on experince alone, or even to this degree. It's how the experince was gained that matters.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. But Kyp was only trained that way because he was one of Luke's first students. And it's still very "compressed" training.
He recieved almost exclusive training from Luke for several weeks. Luke is also self trained and Luke could pwn Dooku.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
That is really stupid considering the fact that they still had training in the temple during war times AND you won't get any inside from using a fighting technique on the battlefield - same counts for force powers.
Try reading a book and learn sword fighting then go against someone who has had both training from a book and actually engaged in real sword fighting and then tell me actual training isn't FAR more effective than book training.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He stalemated Kun when Kun wasn't the great lightsaber duellist and Sith Lord he became later.
So Ulic didn't advance at all even though they still trained with each other.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Proof ? How should I since he never fought one ? Considering the fact that Dooku used a lightsaber style that is designed to be used against enemies with melee weapons and features extreme precision I would actually give him a better chance than Kyp to kill a slayer.
Works for me.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It was impressive for the Mandalorians. Hell...if I slaughter the best warrior you know you would still be impressed. That doesn't mean Mandalore and Revan were equal.
They had been fighting him for 3 years and they still thought it was amazing he defeated Mandalore.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. The PT Jedi are superior compared to the JCW and GSW people in terms of force use and lightsaber combat.
No, they aren't. Not even close.
from everything i've read glentrac it sound like you're saying kyp has more raw power than anikin and i thought that anikin had more than anybody during their time and lukes time. correct me if i'm wrong but thats what some of ur posts make it sound like.
second luke would not have been considered a jedi knight if he were alive during th PT era from the little training yoda gave him.
also luke wasnt that big on lightsaber combat he was more into figuring out the force and trying to "save" people from the darkside. thats just an assumption though from what he does after the movies and such.
the fact that kyp was fighting in wars against the galaxies greatest threat i'd say does give him an advantage. but i'm sorry glentrac kyp no matter what you say hasnt sparred with nearly as many people as obi wan anikin or dooku did. even if you give him like 30 years dooku has 80 and was one of the greatest of his time.
also anikin advanced alot quicker than anyone else did. personally i think that ankin was right when he said that he was ready for the trials in AOTC, but obi-wan just needed to teach him to stay level headed. (obi wan never did do that anyway...to a certain extent)
and luke did the force lightning thingy to the vong not kyp. i think someone somewhere said it was kyp in this thread.
also you can take someone with really good raw power some training with its power and some training with a lightsaber end put them up against someone with less raw power and physical strength but that doesnt mean they'll win.
when it comes down to it dooku has more saberskills than kyp. he's just better than kyp with a lightsaber. a makashi master. kyp may have the raw potential but unless its an assrape load more than dooku he can't over come him with force powers. and it'll then go to a ligthsaber match. where kyp is fighting someone that really knows his stuff.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jorus was a PT Jedi and it took him four years. I don't get your first sentence. It doesn't matter when it was written, that is just how it is.
It does matter. From the impressions we got from the films Luke had only several days or weeks of training before becoming a Jedi Knight (the time he spend on Dagobah). So if Luke can get to Jedi Knight status in weeks (and a maximum of 6 months passed between the beginning of ESB and the end of ROTJ) than this is still impressive compared to four years (Joruus, ancient Jedi)
But
If you consider that even extremely gifted persons like Mace or Anakin needed more than a decade of training to become Jedi Knights it's simply not believeable any longer that Joruus did it in 4 years. Period.
Kyp has over five times the War Experince. It's also closer than the Handmaiden vs. her Sisters, which together had more than 80 years of training vs. her 20 or so years. You can't base this on experince alone, or even to this degree. It's how the experince was gained that matters.
Glentract. Now you really get horrible. The Handmaidens sisters each only had little more experience than the Handmaiden herself and you can't simply count their individual experience together. And notice that the Handmaiden had at least a little bit of Jedi training (more likely she was a Jedi at this point) where her sisters didn't.
He recieved almost exclusive training from Luke for several weeks. Luke is also self trained and Luke could pwn Dooku.
Luke is "self trained" by Obi-Wan, Yoda a 4,000 year old Holocron (including several Jedi Masters).
Try reading a book and learn sword fighting then go against someone who has had both training from a book and actually engaged in real sword fighting and then tell me actual training isn't FAR more effective than book training.
What the hell, Glentract ? The PT Jedi did practice against each other. Dooku was a member of the Order for nearly 70 years. And when the practice times of Master - Padawan teams given for Anakin and Obi-Wan (more than 1,000 hours) are common within the order, Dooku had 1,000 hours of sparring with Yoda and another 1,000 hours of sparring with Qui-Gon. Not to mention training Komari Vosa and Grievous.
So Ulic didn't advance at all even though they still trained with each other.
Not as much as Kun did. At least he had shown NO force feats that make him play in Kun's league.
They had been fighting him for 3 years and they still thought it was amazing he defeated Mandalore.
Glentract. Stop it. It was amazing for them that somebody could defeat Mandalore. If they were really impressed that would actually more likely show that Revan pretty much slaughtered Mandalore instead of them both being equal opponents.
No, they aren't. Not even close.
They are. I think I have to post my PT vs Ancient Jedi theory somewhere...
And Dooku has such a wonderful personality. He invited me and Mable out to Mustafar for the Long Weekend, and he said to Mable, he said, "That guy's a bum."
Of course he said this right when Gunray was walking by, and he just flew the biggest hissyfit EVER!
But then on my way to the Duty-Free shop, guess who I saw? General Grievous...oh, and he has gotten faaaat!
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It does matter. From the impressions we got from the films Luke had only several days or weeks of training before becoming a Jedi Knight (the time he spend on Dagobah). So if Luke can get to Jedi Knight status in weeks (and a maximum of 6 months passed between the beginning of ESB and the end of ROTJ) than this is still impressive compared to four years (Joruus, ancient Jedi)[b]But
If you consider that even extremely gifted persons like Mace or Anakin needed more than a decade of training to become Jedi Knights it's simply not believeable any longer that Joruus did it in 4 years. Period. [/B]
So now you have decided that the rest of the EU is uncanon? That doesn't make much sense.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Glentract. Now you really get horrible. The Handmaidens sisters each only had little more experience than the Handmaiden herself and you can't simply count their individual experience together. And notice that the Handmaiden had at least a little bit of Jedi training (more likely she was a Jedi at this point) where her sisters didn't.
I notice you failed to mention Kyp having over five times the War experience.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Luke is "self trained" by Obi-Wan, Yoda a 4,000 year old Holocron (including several Jedi Masters).
Look at Luke in ESB, or even JK, then compare him to NJO him. Most of that was self training. The improvement from ESB-ROTJ was from a few books. Kyp has Luke to teach him, and Exar Kun(for a while).
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
What the hell, Glentract ? The PT Jedi did practice against each other. Dooku was a member of the Order for nearly 70 years. And when the practice times of Master - Padawan teams given for Anakin and Obi-Wan (more than 1,000 hours) are common within the order, Dooku had 1,000 hours of sparring with Yoda and another 1,000 hours of sparring with Qui-Gon. Not to mention training Komari Vosa and Grievous.
Don't forget Asajj and Sev'rance. This is not factual. Since when has 1000 hours of sparring been regular? Obi-wan and Anakin were together for 13 years and still it was considered impressive that they sparred this much. Unless you can prove Dooku came even close to this, it's time to drop this.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Not as much as Kun did. At least he had shown NO force feats that make him play in Kun's league.
He still matched Kun in lightsaber combat and was able to resist Kun's force powers.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Glentract. Stop it. It was amazing for them that somebody could defeat Mandalore. If they were really impressed that would actually more likely show that Revan pretty much slaughtered Mandalore instead of them both being equal opponents.
Does anything support this being a close fight other than that you think it would be more impressive if Mandalore was slaughtered?
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
They are. I think I have to post my PT vs Ancient Jedi theory somewhere...
The one about them having reached the peak in human capability? GO ahead, post it, but it doesn't seem logical to me.
The PT Jedi equaling Ancient Jedi is a bit of a stretch for me, especially considering the huge losses of life and material during the Jedi Civil Wars, their gradual change from front-line soldiers to diplomatic Jedi throughout the ages, and the decline of the Sith.
But sure, go ahead and humor me with that theory.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
from everything i've read glentrac it sound like you're saying kyp has more raw power than anikin and i thought that anikin had more than anybody during their time and lukes time. correct me if i'm wrong but thats what some of ur posts make it sound like.
That's not what I was trying to show. I was stating that Kyp advanced three times as fast as any other student.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
second luke would not have been considered a jedi knight if he were alive during th PT era from the little training yoda gave him.
I'm not to sure about this. He is better than many of them, even as of ROTJ.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also luke wasnt that big on lightsaber combat he was more into figuring out the force and trying to "save" people from the darkside. thats just an assumption though from what he does after the movies and such.
His Jedi fought a five year war against sword wielders. He started teaching them lightsaber combat within the first few weeks of training. How can you logically say Luke didn't consider lightsaber combat important?
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
the fact that kyp was fighting in wars against the galaxies greatest threat i'd say does give him an advantage. but i'm sorry glentrac kyp no matter what you say hasnt sparred with nearly as many people as obi wan anikin or dooku did. even if you give him like 30 years dooku has 80 and was one of the greatest of his time.
Even if Kyp sparred less people he fought more to the death. Real combat is always more effective at teaching than sparring.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also anikin advanced alot quicker than anyone else did. personally i think that ankin was right when he said that he was ready for the trials in AOTC, but obi-wan just needed to teach him to stay level headed. (obi wan never did do that anyway...to a certain extent)
So, after 10 years of training was Anakin better than Obi-wan as of TPM? No, he wasn't. Was he better than Jorus after four years of training, appears not. Nomi, nope. Luke, nope. Kyp, nope. Corran, nope. The list goes on and on.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
and luke did the force lightning thingy to the vong not kyp. i think someone somewhere said it was kyp in this thread.
That wasn't force lightning Luke used. It was some strange Instakill technique. Jaina would have reconized force lightning since she was able to use it(Destiny's Way). Kyp used some sort of force lightning after only a few months of training and was able to overwhelm Luke. On top of that, Obi-wan doesn't know force lightning, but he blocked Dooku's lightning with ease.
Next, Kyp has shown force power on a scale Dooku has never faced. Remember that black hole technique Luke did? Well guess what. Kyp did it too.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also you can take someone with really good raw power some training with its power and some training with a lightsaber end put them up against someone with less raw power and physical strength but that doesnt mean they'll win.
The amount of training is less important than the quality of the training. Kyp had over five times the War Experince Dooku had and we have seen how effective even three years of War Experince was for Obi-wan and Anakin.
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
when it comes down to it dooku has more saberskills than kyp. he's just better than kyp with a lightsaber. a makashi master. kyp may have the raw potential but unless its an assrape load more than dooku he can't over come him with force powers. and it'll then go to a ligthsaber match. where kyp is fighting someone that really knows his stuff.
Unfounded. I'm not to sure that Dooku is much better than Kyp in dueling, if he is better at all. Kyp is far stronger in force powers though, enough to overwhelm Dooku.
Originally posted by Illustrious
The PT Jedi equaling Ancient Jedi is a bit of a stretch for me, especially considering the huge losses of life and material during the Jedi Civil Wars, their gradual change from front-line soldiers to diplomatic Jedi throughout the ages, and the decline of the Sith.
Oh. This is a strange for you. Let's see how many 10,000 character postings I'll need to explain it...
To start a theory about force users we have to take a look at the force itself. So...how does it work ?
If force sensitivity is inherited (and most likely it is since Anakin’s children and grandchildren are all force sensitive and we have seen families that spawned serveral force users - and almost every child of a Jedi having some force potential - with Tigris being the only example in which this isn't the case) it must have to do something with the genes of a force user. Now if we consider that force sensitivity is genetically inherited we must assume that those genes that make people force sensitive come from somewhere since those things would simply "plop" up out of nowhere. Since Qui-Gon told us in TPM that every single being in the Galaxy has medi-chlorians in his blood we have to assume that every single being in the Galaxy has at least some force potential.
Now if this is right so far it's most likely save to assume that those "genes" responsible for force potential would get stronger over time since (from an evolutionary point of view) having a better force potential (and thereby stuff like telekinesis, augmented strength and speed, better reflexes) would make you stronger and natural selection would favour those genes. As a proof we have entire species being able to use the force in order to survive (Miraluka seeing through the force, the Koruun using it to survive on Haruun Kal - abilities developed out of necessity)
Since civilisations outclassing the process of natural selection the question if people have a force attunement strong enough to become Jedi Knights is pretty much a question of luck. If there is a force user having children the chance of having a force potential high enough to become a Jedi Knight increases. But the average level of force potential would rise because being favoured by natural selection. The Sith for example developed that "natural selection" (the strongest shall survive in this case the strongest shall rule) only further and because of this it’s clear that the most powerful of them were around in the last generation of the ancient Sith species (Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow) where the people those development started with (Ajunta Pall) didn't seem to be very impressive.
Now that process is the same for the normal Galaxy but not going on as fast as with the Sith (since they aided the process of natural selection with their society). So naturally the general level of force potential would be higher in the PT times than it was in ancient time even if only by a small amount.
But there are things contradicting that idea because the Sith and the Rakatan both grew weaker !
That is actually not right. For the Sith we know that their species (basically the Sith Empire) had reached it's highest point under the rule of Ragnos. The Sith (Nadd, Kun and so on) coming after them would naturally have a lesser force potential (since the Sith species aided the natural selection while other species didn't) or maybe the same force potential but they had less knowledge because their order was totally or nearly totally destroyed on multiple occasions (after the Great Hyperspace War, after the Great Sith War, the Jedi Civil War and the Battle of Ruusan) with most of their knowledge being lost (because either being destroyed / disappearing with individual force users, huge plundering actions – on Korriban, or the simple destruction of knowledge bases like Malachor V). For example the descendants of Freedon Nadd could have had more force potential than Nadd himself but they didn't even come close to have his knowledge.
The Rakatan reached their peak when the constructed the Star Forge. From that point on they started to lose their ability to touch the force but not from generation to generation. It simply disappeared. And that's a phenomenon that is not unique to their race. Vima Da-Boda started losing her ability to use the force slowly after she had turned to the dark side and slew the person responsible for the death of her daughter in anger. So the loss of the ability to touch the force might result from overusing the dark side. That might be aided through two points: The Rakatan seem to have lost that ability nearly instantly (so their power didn't fade away in some generations) and they developed the ability to touch the force again or are close to it in KotoR times (this is getting obvious when you talk to the Rakatan scientist who examines that phenomenon and tells you "the One" is possibly close to be able to use the force).
By the way Vima is an example for a PT Jedi having children who again became Jedi theirselves. Lucas himself stated that he never thought of the PT Jedi being celibate. I'm just mentioning this fact because of the following point: The PT Jedi Order was more centralised than the ancient one and they did train all people from infancy on. Thinking about that it might simply raise the chances for Jedi having children with other Jedi. Or think about the force potential generated on Coruscant with 1,000 generations of Jedi Knights "making love" with non-force-users on that planet and producing children.
So...three things can be established as being facts:
a) Force potential is genetically inherited
b) General level of force potential is raising over time
c) The chance for a child being strong enough with the force is better if one or both of their parents was / were Jedi / Sith.
Force powers
While the ancient force user have shown us great examples of force use (lifting large objects, destroying planets) the abilities of the PT Jedi seem to be more refined and they actually have more of them. Lets have a look at it:
a)
They can survive prolonged exposure to lethal substances (seen when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon resisted the nerve gas in TPM) where Ulic Quel-Droma (considered one of the most powerful ancient Jedi) was forced to give into the dark side to survive being poisoned by Satal Keto.
b)
They can survive long falls (extensively shown by Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC, shown by Mace Windu in AotC and Shatterpoint, by Yoda in ROTS and by Obi-Wan in TPM) and violent physical shocks (grabbing on an airspeeder that flies by shown by Anakin in AotC) without being visibly affected.
c)
They can take a vast amounts of hits before being killed. You can see Jedi taking multiple hits by weapons that can destroy battledroids with a single hit in ROTS. And they can take hits from flamethrowers (Mace Windu AotC) as well as survive rockets and ship lasers fired at them (Obi-Wan vs Jango in AotC). If you consider that Anakin survived lying close to a stream of lava (and Anakin and Obi-Wan both can act in areas with very high temperatures) you might speculate that they can absorb some high amounts of heat using the force without visibly focusing. (Having a look at the Clone War cartoons Obi-Wan is able to block Durge's flame-thrower with his bare hands).
d)
They seem to have much more refined telekinetic abilities than the ancient Jedi. Anoon Bondara tells his Padawan Darsha Assent that it’s much more difficult to lift a single grain of sand than lifting a rock. Now we see Qui-Gon manipulating Watto's chance cube and all kinds of Jedi disabling droids through the force (what seemed like a force push in the movies – the TPM novel states that they disable the droids by destroying circuits and they are able to do this quite effortless - which would be more fitting since the droids aren't damaged from the outside but never get up again "force pushed" once). That leads to the conclusion that their telekinetic powers are more refined than the ones of the ancient Jedi.
Considering the Clone War cartoons they can use telekinetic abilities to greater means (Mace destroying the droids on Dantooine, Yoda tear down the top of a mountain to destroy the droids attacking him on Ilum / lifting those heavy rocks that crashed on Luminara and Bariss Offee – while both of them where able to protect themselves from getting crushed).
e)
Greater force sense. Especially shown by Yoda when he senses the death of the Jedi instantly over thousands of lightyears also shown by Obi-Wan in ANH when he senses the destruction of Alderaan. Same amounts of lives lost and Jedi killed didn't seem to have much effect on the Jedi in the ancient times (destruction of Malachor, destroying sunsystems and planets by the Sith - normally at least Bastilla should have had some terrible had ache when she, Carth and Revan did escape from Taris while the Sith were glassing the planet).
Yoda and Mace where also able to sense Anakin slaying the Tusken Raiders in AotC (so they can sense strong emotions by a single Jedi across the half Galaxy) and Yoda was able to sense the intentions of the Clone Troopers who wanted to kill him.
Compare that to the average Jedi in KotoR times who got killed in huge amount of numbers by "normal" people assassinating them where Obi-Wan is able to sense coming attacks from his "backside" (seen in AotC against the female headhunter).
f)
Greater abilities of physical enchantments through the force. That includes force speed (used by Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon in TPM), augmented strength (Yoda in AotC seems to be physically stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together in ROTS considering the fact that Dooku could parry them both at once with a single hand where Yoda broke a saberlock with him while he used both hands) and acrobatic movements (Yoda, Maul).
g)
Greater abilities when it comes to blaster deflection and redirection. We saw Yoda in ROTS deflecting fire from 6 clone troopers simultaneously (same can be seen from nearly all people in the CW cartoons). Redirection of blaster fire is used on multiple occasions by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM, by several Jedi on Geonosis (you can see Mace deflecting 6 blaster bolts from different directions in about a second of time) and by Zett Jucassa and Ki-Adi-Mundi in ROTS. Most impressive example of that technique seems to be Depa Billaba deflecting fire from two different directions using two lightsabers and redirecting seven blaster bolts into a single hole on a moving target.
Vader in ESB (as well as Obi-Wan in the CW cartoons) is deflecting a blaster shot with his hand.
That are things ancient Jedi could only dream off.
h)
Greater abilities of mind-affection. We can see Darsha Assent (a Padawan) affecting the minds of an entire gang of bandits in Shadowhunter and this ability is also used by Obi-Wan (AotC and TPM) to control or distract people.
Andur Sunrider either wasn't able to do something like that or he didn't even think about it when getting attacked by some normal bandits.
And now we reach the first big mistake - the legend of the Jedi losing knowledge and material.
We know that the PT Jedi had knowledge dating back to the ancient times since Bodo Baas (who died during the Jedi Purge) had a holocron that was passed on through generations of Jedi Knights from Vodo Siosk-Baas time on and later was one of the main sources for Luke Skywalker to learn from.
Going by Yaddle's EU profile of starwars.com the Jedi temple had an "impressive collection of holocrons, scrolls and tomes." And if you have a look at the information about the Jedi Temple given on starwars.com you can see the following points:
- the Jedi temple is an ancient building and seeing that it still contains the same rooms as in KotoR times it's very unlikely that it was destroyed.
- the middle tower of the five temple towers "was the most sacred section of the building. Inside were housed the original manuscripts of the founding Jedi." So...they have 25,000 year old manuscripts lying around there and notice that this middle tower being kilometer-meter high was filled with knowledge. So they have quite some stuff in there.
- some people were speculating the temple was destroyed since the Council Room in KotoR 2 appears to be different from the one we have seen in the PT. Basically each of the outer towers had its own Council Room since the Jedi had 4 different Councils: The High Council, the Council of First Knowledge, the Council of Reconciliation, and the Reassignment Council and each of them had its own Council Room. So the Council the Exile had faced in KotoR 2 must not be the High Council.
Feats and abilities
First of all the Jedi in PT times seem to be respected or feared more than the Jedi in ancient times. While we have examples of ancient Jedi simply being murdered or attacked by quite "normal" people (bandits) all people in the PT movies confronted with Jedi immediately panic. The Neimodians in TPM panic when being confronted with TWO Jedi despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on their ship to stop them. Same can be seen in the Geonosian arena in AOTC where the entire audience seems to panic and immediately flee when the Jedi in the arena ignite their lightsabers.
Just compare the following situations: Andur Sunrider was killed by normal bandits. Mace Windu just had to put his hand on a lightsaber to scare 14 bandits away. Darsha Assent being a Padawan was enough to make an entire street gang flee from her.
And the Jedi in PT times can't get killed by "non-force-users" except in situations were they are horribly outnumbered or overwhelmed with heavy weapons. We see that Jango Fett (called the "deadliest man in the Galaxy" by Mace in Shatterpoint) wasn't able to kill Obi-Wan despite the fact that Boba gave him some assistance and later Mace simply killed him in a direct confrontation.
Both ideas are supported by Lucas himself in the commentary of TPM. When Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fight through the Trade Federation ship at the beginning of the film Lucas tells us that he wanted the Jedi to be "invincible" and "unstoppable" and they should be recognized like this by the other people appearing in the films. In fact we never saw a Jedi dying to a non-force-user in a "fair" fight except Jango killing Coleman Trebor (this might only have happened because Trebor seemed to focus 100 % on Dooku). The kills archived by other "non-force-users" seem to come from situations of outnumbering (AotC, ROTS), overwhelming Jedi with firepower (AotC. ROTS) or "surprising them" (GG during the Clone Wars).
Also the Jedi seem to have developed some very high infiltration ability since they were able to enter the Area on Geonosis with 200 people without Dooku or the Geonosians having sensed them. The fight on Geonosis did show two things to us:
a) The Jedi are very good in terms of individual skills
b) They are bad when it comes to teamwork.
The entire fight they seem to rely on their individual skills (and considering how many of them survived there must be some very skilled individuals) while not developing any form of teamwork. I think some change had occurred between ancient times and the PT times. In ancient times all "great" actions of force use (on the Jedi’s side) where done by teams. They send hundreds or thousands of individuals to stop Kun or Nadd (In case of defeating Kun they joined their forces to exterminate the entire life on Yavin 4). Some of them joined forces to capture Ulic ("Shield of light"😉. The only individual action of a single ancient Jedi not reproduced by a single PT force user was cutting somebodies connection to the force. This was done to Ulic by Nomi Sunrider but notice that Ulic was not focusing on his defences but instead was shocked because having killed his own brothers.
In the PT groups of force users seem to fail where individuals can prevail. We saw that 5 Jedi can't defeat Grievous where Mace and Obi-Wan both defeated him in 1vs1 situations. Also Obi-Wan seems to fight much better on his own than teamed up with somebody else (e.g. Anakin). It seems that the PT Jedi have developed greater individual skills but sacrificed most of their abilities to work as teams compared to the ancient time Jedi.
So in terms of versus threads: PT Jedi would maybe be better in "1vs1" or "1vsX" situations where ancient time Jedi might be better in "XvsX" situations.
And just compare them in (quite) similar fights. Let's have a look on the Battle of Deneba in ancient times. You have several thousands of Jedi vs several thousands of Krath War Droids (some Grievous like things with 4 arms carrying 2 meleeweapons and a bow like blaster or blaster rifles) and the Jedi pretty much got slaughtered and even powerful ones (such as Arca Jeth) died.
Now have a look at the Battle of Geonosis (the arena fight). Same situation: 200 Jedi vs thousands droids. Now the droids are equipped with weapons that fire quite fast (normal battle droids 3 bolts per second, Super Battle Droids around 6 bolts and the Droidekas fireing 4 weapons at once with 8 or 12 bolts per second) and some of them even have shields (Droidekas) - and they are aided by Geonosians with some heavy weapons.
Now if you have a look at the "background" action in the arena scenes you can see some Jedi getting outnumbered 5+ on 1 (being surrounded) and still winning quite easily against their opponents. In the entire Battle of Geonosis 192,000 clone troopers and 212 Jedi annihilated more than 1,1 mio Battle Droids.
Still thinking that the PT Jedi are weaker than the ancient ones...ok...next point incoming.
Lightsaber fighting
Well...who would be better in terms of lightsaber combat ?
As far as we have seen the PT Jedi are at least better than the ancient ones when it comes to blaster deflection and redirection.
Now let us just have a look on training. The PT Jedi (post Ruusan) are trained from infancy on with lightsabers were the greatest people of ancient times weren't trained from infancy on. Who would be better in terms of fighting ? Somebody who did practice some years with a weapon and used it in some battles or somebody who trained with that weapon for decades and grew up using it ? I guess the latter one when you consider the fact that the styles didn’t change from KotoR times to PT times on.
To add to that point of view. The ancient Jedi practice the very same forms that the PT Jedi do while those forms were refined for more than 4,000 years. I have never seen a example of martial art / fighting style getting worse over time. For natural talents with lightsaber combat we can have a look at Mace Windu: Juyo remained an unfinished art for nearly 4,000 of years until Mace completed it with Vaapad. So...if the ancient Jedi (pre Ruusan) were better than the PT ones why did nobody ever complete Juyo ?
Now people often think that the ancient Jedi had more battle experience and more training against other force users (Sith) than the PT ones. Again wrong. For all we know the Jedi in ancient times nearly had no major conflicts that did go on for several years. The Great Hyperspace War was over in less than one year (and we haven't seen lightsaber action there), same with the Great Sith War.
The Jedi didn't participate in the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War (as it's descriped in KotoR 2) more seems like Jedi getting assassinated by Sith assassins / special forces or they tried to convert them. I don't remember a single situation where somebody was talking about a real battle between Jedi and Sith happening in the Jedi Civil War.
Now the PT Jedi did practice against each other (so against other force users) and they did that quite often. The ROTS novel states that Anakin and Obi-Wan did practice lightsaber combat against each other for more than 1,000 hours. We also know that Padawans did fight each other (Shadowhunter) and that even Masters used to spare against each other (Dooku and Yoda did fight Mace before the events of TPM). If that amount of practice time that Obi-Wan and Anakin had is "normal" then some Masters must have 10,000s of hours experience in lightsaber vs lightsaber fights. How would ancient Jedi be able to compare to that ?
Now let's just have a look at the next prejudice or way of thinking. Illustrious has written that there was a "gradual change from front-line soldiers to diplomatic Jedi throughout the ages" which is simply wrong. The Jedi always were diplomats and peacekeepers - the entire order is designed to keep harmony within the Galaxy which doesn't pretty much fit the picture of an army just designed for fighting. Or are we back in the Roman Empire here and the Jedi Order is commanded by Julius Caesar ("in civis pace para bellum" - "if you want peace you have to prepare for war"😉 ? That does simply not fit the rules and philosophy of the Jedi Order and those - as far as we know - were installed 5,000+ years BBY thereby counting for all ancient Jedi.
And now for the great "BUT..."
But Yoda – being the strongest of the PT Jedi – couldn't defeat Sidious – the worst of all Sith Lords
True. But let's simply have a look at some facts:
a)
All ancient Sith Lords had technology or some special things to aid their force powers. Sadow had his ship which allowed him to destroy planets and some crystals that boosted his force powers. Same things were later used by Kun (+ Aleema + Ulic). They had amulets, artifacts and so on. Sidious equipped with the same stuff actually is pretty close to the Ancient Sith Lords (have a look at Sidious in Dark Empire having one crystal to boost his force powers). So Sidious might be as strong or even stronger then the ancient Sith Lords in terms of raw power but inferior when it comes to Sith knowledge (especially Alchemy) and things to boost his force powers.
b)
The ROTS novel states that the reason Yoda can't defeat Sidious was that the Sith had changed while the Jedi didn't. In ancient times it was a fight where the light did overcome the darkness. Now in the ROTS novel it is said that the more light you use against the new Sith the deeper their shadow gets. They can't be overwhelmed using the light against them. If we consider the fact that the only weapon the Jedi knew against the Sith was the light, the PT Jedi had less chances against Sidious than the ancient Jedi had against ancient Sith. Now...if you think about this that can lead to some ideas about the PT and the OT:
1)
It can explain why Mace did defeat Sidious after less than a minute of fighting where Yoda wasn't able to do that. It's because of Vaapad. To quote the ROTS novel: "Immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side." So Mace was using the darkness (or let's say some feelings associated with the "Dark Side"😉 against Sidious and won where Yoda, using the light wasn't able to do so.
2)
Now think about that: Why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda train Luke and Leia from their childhood on ? I think Yoda noticed that the new Sith can only be defeated by somebody that are not like Jedi (pure servants of the light - and have a look at the NJO they aren't "Jedi" any longer) but people that can utilise their "darker feelings" but remain in control over themselves (not fall to the Dark Side). And just have a look how the new Sith (Sidious and Vader) were defeated in the end. Luke had to use his anger to overcome Vader in ROTJ and Vader this finally resulted in Vader killing the Emperor.
Could Luke have "defeated" them being a "regular" Jedi ? Could he have done something with 2 decades of training what Yoda wasn't able to do after 9 centuries if Yoda would have trained the same way all the PT Jedi were trained ? I doubt it.
He would have killed Vader (just because of the necessity) and then the Emperor would have killed him. So leaving Luke "untrained" enough to keep his feelings in higher regard than the (estimated) necessity of his actions was possibly the only way to "win" in the end.
Now...thinking about that points the PT Jedi might have better chances against the ancient Sith Lords than some people give them credit for because they are trained to fight Sith like that and have more training time and more refined abilities than the ancient Jedi.
Especially Yoda would be a real threat for the ancient Sith Lords and not because I'm a Yoda fanboy but because his unique abilities.
We already know that he can absorb and deflect Sith Lightning from point blank range but he has another ability called “Force Light”. Yoda once used that on Dagobah and the effect is that it removes Dark Side manifestations from a nexus point. That means Yoda would be able to effectively destroy any artifact created with Sith magic by removing the Dark Side "component".
Now try to imagine Sith Lords without their force power boosting artifacts trying to fight somebody armed with lightsaber while wielding normal blades (Sith blades that no longer have Sith magic applied on them). Do you think they can win ?
And to throw a last point in here: Lucas himself called the PT era the Golden Age of the Jedi. It's their highest point. Now notice that most of the EU stuff about the ancient Jedi was approved (and sometimes even used) by Lucas before he released the PT and still Lucas calls the PT era the "Golden Age of the Jedi". Since this is Lucas own point of view this might also explain why the Clone War cartoons look exaggerated: Lucas wanted to show the Jedi's "real powers" – something which he couldn't have done in the films and he personally approved episodes which the director thought of being not acceptable (like Mace wasting the droids and the seismic tank on Dantooine).
So if you consider all the points mentioned and consider the Clone War Cartoons as what they are (a piece of Lucas approved EU material) and have a look on Lucas own statement about the PT era (being the Golden Age of the Jedi) - would you still say that the ancient Jedi are superior to the PT Jedi ?
If yes than I hope that I was persistand enough for you Janus. And I hope I humored you greatly, Illustrious.
Nai over.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So now you have decided that the rest of the EU is uncanon? That doesn't make much sense.
Basic rule of canon policy: Films > EU. If the films say that 12 or 13 years to become a Jedi Knight is impressive (and if Anakin can't do it faster it must be impressive somehow) than people doing it in 4 years during PT times are simply illogical. Period.
I notice you failed to mention Kyp having over five times the War experience.
I notice you failed to realize that war experience doesn't mean anything. Ever tried to develop you personal fighting style further while facing deadly opponents ?
Don't forget Asajj and Sev'rance. This is not factual. Since when has 1000 hours of sparring been regular? Obi-wan and Anakin were together for 13 years and still it was considered impressive that they sparred this much. Unless you can prove Dooku came even close to this, it's time to drop this.
Of course all other Padawans (except Anakin) must have learned lightsaber combat in otherways than sparing against their masters. Maybe they were beamed to an remote planet where they could fight some mysterious creatures having lightsabers instead of arms or something like that.
He still matched Kun in lightsaber combat and was able to resist Kun's force powers.
Personal skill or result of the Sith amulet he was wearing ? And still Kun wasn't close to the "top of his power".
Does anything support this being a close fight other than that you think it would be more impressive if Mandalore was slaughtered?
Did I start the speculation how strong Mandalore was compared to Revan without any proof or just a little hint to speculate about or was that you, huh ?
The one about them having reached the peak in human capability? GO ahead, post it, but it doesn't seem logical to me.
The one you see above. Go on, proove me wrong, destroy the fabric of the universe - see if I care. 😛