Did you read the previous 80 post escape? I doubt it, they're freakin long.
Anyway, in a nutshell, Kyp has ~20 years of experince as of DN. He also has potential that rivals Luke's, which is far above Dooku.
~Fifteen years of that is War Experince, which we have seen is far more helpful for gaining skill than regular training.
Anakin, for example, grew more in 3 years than he did in the previous ten. Obi-wan grew more in the three years than he had in the previous 36. That puts War Experince anywhere between 5-12 times more effective.
So, a force user in NJO times with equal potential of a person in PT times with be anywhere from 3-12 times more powerful. This makes sense because we se people like Jacen with about a decade of training able to rival people like ROTS Anakin.
15*5=60+8=68 years of PT training. That's almost equal to Dooku's when you consider Kyp has more potential and thus will advance faster: 3*5=15+80=95.
If we look at how much Obi-wan improved, it's far more in Kyp's favor:
15*12=180+8=188 years of PT training. This seems too high, so it's probably something like 7 or 8 times more effective:
7*15=105+8=113 years.
Kyp also advanced three times faster than the other students. Kyp is very powerful and I believe he could defeat Dooku,
Kyp also has demonstrated force control on the level of controlling black holes, which was difficult even for NJO Luke to do.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Miraluka were destroyed, but wiped out was a misstatement, I meant that there were many Force Users in different species that were wiped out, removing them from being able to pass on their force Capability.
Ok.
Also, please show some instances between Ruusan and Mustafar that this happened beside with Ki-Adi Mundi since he was considered a special case.
Vima Da-Boda (appearing in the DE comics) who was a PT Jedi had a daughter in PT times.
Golden Age as in most advanced. It could have been the peak of their technology and riches, but it wasn’t necessarily the peak of their Force Powers.
Do you want to tell me that the Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire where stronger than Ragnos ? Hard to believe.
Just because they Republic never fought them doesn’t mean that they didn’t have Civil Wars that wiped out huge portions of the Empire, and, as I have already shown, there are many instances in Civilized communities that Natural Selection doesn’t apply.
If there were Civil Wars they would basically have lost some footsoldiers (Masassi) which doesn't really matter. The Sith Lords and the Dark Lord were only touched if somebody was able to defeat them to take their place. How often do you think that happened ?
And the Sith Empire wasn't "civilized" like our societies are civilized. Because of the rule that "The strongest must rule" the Sith Empire worked under social-darwinistic conditions meaning they used "natural selection" (through fighting) to determine their leaders.
That doen’t make sense because the “True” Sith Empire still existed after the Jedi Civil War. I don’t think we can resolve this at the moment.
Now that doesn't make sense. The "true" Sith Empire always requires a Dark Lord. If the Sith Empire had still existed in times of Kun, Kun could never have become the Dark Lord because there must have been a Dark Lord somewhere in unknown space and Ragnos must have known that.
What I meant was that the Order was mainly wiped out in the Great Sith War. They lost some of their most powerful members (Vodo Baas, Arca Jeth, etc.). At the end of the Jedi Civil War, they were far weaker. They had just fought two Wars in a war. The entire Council(from what we can tell) we destroyed with 5 years of the Jedi Civil War.
Where was the Order mainly wiped out in the Great Sith War when they still had thousands (comics) or hundrets (Jedi Academy trilogy) of Jedi left to finally confront Kun ?
If those trained individuals are dead though, they aren’t going to be passing on a lot of Force Sensitivity. And the Order at the Time of the Great Sith War was supposed to have been in the TENS of thousands, several times greater than the PT Order.
They could still pass on some force sensitivity before getting killed.
And please give me a source saying the Ancient Jedi Order had TENS of thousands of members.
1. We haven’t seen many cases of this. Not very useful.
2. They weren’t killed in War. There were many Jedi killed by thugs in both time periods.
3. That’s one case, not enough to say whether or not that is likely. This is also Leia, who has major Force Sensitivity. It seems that the stronger the Force User, the more likely they are to pass on at least some of their potential.
1) Yes because SW isn't a porn movie.
2) Where have we seen Jedi getting killed by thugs in the PT ?
3) One case ? Anakin + Padme (2 children, both force sensitive), Han + Leia (3 children, all force sensitive), the mother of Ulic and Cay + their father (2 children, both force sensitive), Vima Da-Boda (daughter force sensitive). In fact we have only one case where a child with one/two Jedi parents wasn't force sensitive and that's the son of Hethrir in "Crystal Star" - on the other handside we have huge force potential coming "out of nowhere" (like Dorsk 81 and Kyp Durron).
They had never dealt with Jedi before. They had no idea of a Jedi’s capabilities. The reason that Ulic was able to survive the poison was because he was so strong in the Force.
Also, the Jedi Exile is seen resisting the poison of the Jekk Jekk Tar for along time.
1) Yes the Neimodians had never dealt with Jedi before but they wouldn't have opened the doors of that room if they had thought that a Jedi (even knowing that Jedi had "superhuman" abilities) couldn't have survived that.
2) Ulic survived the poison because of giving into the Dark Side which means his normal force powers weren't enough.
3) The air in the Jekk Jekk Tar is not really designed to kill humans. And this is gaming experience. I've walked to the club having a breathing mask on my face.
Of course the Jedi Exile had a force ability (or could have it) to survive the poisoned athmosphere. But Kreia - while teaching him - says that this is an ability to work with the air you inhalated once longer than normal people can do.
So falling fifty feet is going to cause more damage than a hit by someone who can move several tons? No, I think that the Force Push is going to cause a greater amount of damage.
Where have you ever seen somebody moving serveral tons with a Force Push ? The heaviest force push in the movies is either Obi-Wan pushing Grievous or Yoda pushing Sidious and both didn't seem to "hurt" the opponent much.
And I guess the "stunts" during the chase of the headhuntress in AotC would normally cause more damage than getting force pushed (Anakin jumping out of the speeder, falling down for more than 10 seconds and then grab onto another speeder that moves by with some high amount of speed).
How does moving something with a smaller mass harder than moving something with a larger mass.
Because you have to focus on it more. It's harder to hit a basketball with a baseball bat than it is to hit a baseball. And according to Yoda the weight of the object you want to move doesn't matter.
Plus, I don’t see why using technology makes the Sith weak. I mean, the Jedi used all sorts of technology to assist them (rebreather mask, lightsabers, comlinks), so this isn’t much of an argument against the Sith.
It doesn't make the Sith weak. But they used technology and artifacts aiding their natural force powers where the Jedi didn't.
We saw Sidious turning into a real force monster using one of those "chrystals" in DE compared to what he could do in ROTS. Now think about somebody like Sadow take away his ship and his chrystals and imagine what would be left of his power.
Name some situations when they needed these abilities but failed to use them.
Andur Sunrider getting killed by a bunch of bandits would be a good example.
No need to get angry. Anyway, which is a higher level of canon, the Essential Guides or that book? Wikipedia indicates they are two different items. Please give me a page number(or at least near the page) that says there is only one holocron or at least points to this in a way that is so suggestive that it outweighs the Essential Guide and Wikipedia.
a)
If the Essential Guide takes information from the book the book would be the higher level of canon.
b)
In Dark Apprentice at the beginning of chapter 23 the holocron first tells Luke's students about the ancient Jedi and then how Yoda became a Jedi Knight. In the end of chapter 29 Luke takes the same holocron and demands to speak to Master Vodo (which would make no sense if the Holocron only contains informations Vodo installed in it) and Vodo tells him about Exar Kun.
Vima gave Leia a lightsaber made on Ossus that was 10,000 years old, so Ossus must be at least that old. It also seems unlikely that the Jedi would start making lightsabers the second that they got there, so they were probably at Ossus for thousands of years before that.
Ossus contained a museum so a 10,000 year old lightsaber (which must have been one of the first lightsaber constructed since lightsabers where invented in 9,990 BBY) doesn't mean that the Jedi where on Ossus at that time. We don't know since when they were there.
What we know is that Odan-urr installed the Library / Museum on Ossus after his Master Ooroo was killed and that happened while fighting against Naga Sadow (so 5,000 BBY). That means the library and museum of Ossus were present from 5,000 BBY to 3,996 BBY when Ossus was destroyed.
I don’t think that Ancient Jedi didn’t have any rep like you say.
They didn't make normal bandits flee by simply revealing theirselves to be Jedi or touching their lightsaber. And if Darsha (a padawan) can use mind control on an entire gang of bandits (Shadow Hunter) why shouldn't Andur Sunrider (an ancient Jedi Knight) do the same ? Except he couldn't do that...
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not everyone, but many were. Assassins were common in that time, along with the Sith Empire whose main enemy was the Jedi. They trained many assassins to counter the Jedi.
I was talking about bandits and now you are talking about Sith Assasins. How many Sith Assasins did Kun have ? They became commonly used under Revan / Malak or Sion.
The Amulets are just another form of technology. The Jedi use technology too. The PT Jedi must be weak because they use lightsabers to augment their force powers(stated in by Master Thon, I believe).
The PT Jedi aren't using artifacts. It's a difference if you just use a lightsaber or something that boosts your force potential into the sky.
Some powerful Jedi were killed, but that doesn’t mean all of them were killed. Look at the Battle of the Star Forge, for example. Malak, the strongest Sith alive, was killed, but other, weaker Sith escaped such as the Master who was informing Malak on Revan’s movements). This is another situation in which natural selection doesn’t play out on a civilized community.
How would one Sith have survived that battle if the Republic forces destroyed the SF and all Sith ships outside ?
So each droid can fire at minimum three times per second? This doesn’t make any sense. You said that Jedi could block five droids firing at them and then made it sound like it was amazing that a Jedi can block six blaster bolts, which I still haven’t seen happen.
Have a look at AotC and simply count how often they are firing. And again you can see Mace deflecting six blaster bolts from different directions in less than a second in AotC during the arena fight (directly after C-3PO's head comes walking in - Mace deflects 6 blaster bolts and then jumps away).
I do pratice Martial Arts and I do know that real fighting teaches you more than training.
Oh yes. Real fighting for some minutes does teach you more than several thousand hours of practice ? Hardly.
You can’t actually understand a real fighting situation without ever being in one. And since when have Nadd, Ulic, and Exar been the only powerful people in the Ancient Times?
Name some powerful people that Jedi did fight in direct combat and had problems with. Warb Null and his Krath warriors got pretty much destroyed by Ulic and his Jedi strike team and that are the only people that come to my mind spontaneously.
Both, but the real fights did more.
That is an assumption. You can crush hundrets of opponents without improving much if they are all weaker than you because you simply don't need to improve. Now what did you think made Anakin improve more: fighting battle droids (what he did most of the time) or fighting with Asajj / sparring with Obi-Wan ? I'd say the latter one.
And now how would the simple fact that you were fighting a war make you greater if your opponents were inferior ? And how can you tranlate the time a war went on directly into "war experience" ? It's not like Obi-Wan, Anakin or medieval knights did nothing else than fight even in times of wars.
So all Jedi who use lightsabers, comlinks, rebreathers, ect. Are suddenly weak because they use technology that they constructed to augment their power? No, they aren’t, so why should the Sith be? There were tens of thousands of Jedi Knights in the Great Sith War. That is easily enough to have a war.
a) How are comlinks augmenting somebody's force power ? "I have a comlink and now I'm twice as powerful compared to myself without a comlink" ?
b) Hooray. Ten thousands of Jedi against how many Dark Jedi / Krath / Sith ? Can you give me a single event where two armies of force users were colliding and fighting ?
You said you wanted a fight between Jedi and Sith and I gave you one.
Armies of Jedi and Sith.
No it isn’t. Why would it be stated if it wasn’t special? Half the book was dedicated to sucking Anakin and Obi-wan balls.
To give a reason why they knew the other one inside out ?
Quit it with the swearing, it’s getting rather annoying. The Jedi still had a warrior branch, so I don’t see them being peace keepers. The did fight for peace, but soldier fight for peace too, yet they are not peace keepers.
You are simply making it look like as if the Ancient Jedi were constantly fighting wars against Dark Siders and didn't care much about diplomacy which simply isn't true.
It’s a huge planet and not the only place that Amulets ever came from. Sidious also visited Ziost, which is a far more rare location for Sith to visit than Korriban. I belive it is also directly stated at one point that he found a Sith Amulet there.
He visited Korriban and Ziost after the events of the movies afaik and still all "major" locations where already plundered.
Sounds like you’re getting desperate. That doesn’t directly contradict the movies, so it is still canon. Taking stabs in the dark, perhaps?
Becoming a Jedi Knight (in terms of a Jedi Knight equipped with the powers the PT Jedi had) in 4 years is not contradicting the movies ? Especially with Joruus. All Jedi were trained from infancy on in the PT era (Anakin being 9 years old was already "too old"😉 - so you want to tell me that Joruus was a Jedi Knight before reaching the age of 5, or ten or at least he's outclassing Zett Jucassa, Mace Windu and people like that. That's not contradicting the movies ?
This would still make the Dark stronger than the Light, which it is not.
No. It would not. The Dark Side is not stronger than the Light on the final state (Sidious isn't stronger than Yoda) but it still gives you power faster.
How fast does it work though? Regardless, Sith are extremely capable without their Amulets.
How can you tell how capable the Sith are without their artifacts if you have never seen them fight without their artifacts ?
Ever seen one rip out the Core of a Star? Yep. That alone outweighs everything the PT Jedi ever did.
Ever seen one rip out the Core of a Star without using a ship focusing his force powers and chrystals boosting his force powers ? No.
Now imagine Yoda using one of those chrystals and develope the same way Sidious has from ROTS to DE. Outsch ?
AND THE MOVIES ARE CANON ABOVE A GL QUOTE OR ANYONE OR ANYTHING ELSE!!! WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND!
Why don't you understand the Lucasfilm canon policy ? The movies are canon for the single reason that they are Lucas' own work. Aren't Lucas own thoughts Lucas own work any longer ? Not that it does matter here.
They were able to effectively fight against the Ancient Sith, people who could kill dozens, if not hundreds of PT Jedi each.
So name the ancient Sith that were fought by Jedi and would be able to kill dozens if not hundreds of PT Jedi each. Ragnos has never seen a Jedi. Same goes for Kressh. Sadow never faced Jedi in direct confrontation. Kun did it once and schooled his former master (which doesn't make Vodo seem to look very impressive). And now the last one would be Ulic. Hmm...can Ulic handle dozens or hundreds of PT Jedi ? Can Revan do that ? Can Malak do that ?
Originally posted by Deus Ex
One thing about poison... the exile was given an extremely lethal dose of something or other and he survived it. Being a jedi simply means having a strong consitution.
Good point. I had nearly forgotten that. As far as I remember that was a high dose of a sedative or soporific - but it wasn't used with the intention to kill the Exile (HK-50 did that as far as I remember and he wanted to keep the Exile in that Kolto tank until the arrival of the Sith).
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Good point. I had nearly forgotten that. As far as I remember that was a high dose of a sedative or soporific - but it wasn't used with the intention to kill the Exile (HK-50 did that as far as I remember and he wanted to keep the Exile in that Kolto tank until the arrival of the Sith).
I'm not so sure about that. It seems like they would prefer to capture him alive, not that it would be their main goal. I mean they shot his ship from the sky. On Peragus HK tried to keep him locked up because it was the perfect time for something like that. Easy to capture him, but I don't see any real proof that he would want the Exile alive instead of death. He would just prefer it. He could have very well tried to destroy the Exile on that ship.
And he sure as hell didn't want to give the Exile up to the Sith.. he wanted to give the Exile to Goto who didn't work with the Sith..
Originally posted by Fishy
I'm not so sure about that. It seems like they would prefer to capture him alive, not that it would be their main goal. I mean they shot his ship from the sky. On Peragus HK tried to keep him locked up because it was the perfect time for something like that. Easy to capture him, but I don't see any real proof that he would want the Exile alive instead of death. He would just prefer it. He could have very well tried to destroy the Exile on that ship.And he sure as hell didn't want to give the Exile up to the Sith.. he wanted to give the Exile to Goto who didn't work with the Sith..
Goto clearly wanted the Exile alive so HK-50 wouldn't have killed the Exile. Did he want to kill the Exile at the end of Peragus or simply capture him (I don't remember that exactly atm) ?
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Goto clearly wanted the Exile alive so HK-50 wouldn't have killed the Exile. Did he want to kill the Exile at the end of Peragus or simply capture him (I don't remember that exactly atm) ?
He told the Exile to stay put and wait for rescue... He did open fire after that, not caring about killing him.
and yeah Goto wanted the Exile alive, but I can't think of any bounty hunter except for Mira that cared about that particulair thing, and Mira only cared because she always tried to keep her prey alive. The rest of the bounty hunters just wanted the Exile... dead or alive it did not matter to them. HK does seem to share the oppinion of most of the other bounty hunters... Alive is prefered but death is acceptable.
Edit: Actually the Exile was in a pretty bad shape, in the prologue T3 has to save his live by giving him med pacs. And then at Peragus he's knocked out in a Kolto Tank for sometime. It seems to me that HK did want him dead but failed in that, and then decided to take him alive. Seeing as he already had him captured and KO. I don't think he forsaw the Exile waking up.
Hmm...I don't know...would Goto have payed anything for a dead Exile ?
He needed the Exile alive so why would he have payed for a dead Exile - and why would a bounty hunter kill the Exile in this case ?
Isn't there a scene somewhere (beginning of Nar Shadda ?) in the game where one of the bounty hunters (Hanharr ?) simply wants to kill the Exile and it's told that Goto wants the Exile alive at any costs ?
And why shouldn't HK-50 have killed the Exile if he wanted to do this ? The Exile was defenseless while being in the Kolto tank so HK-50 could have poisoned the Exile or walk into there and shoot the Exile or something like that. That would have been more effecient compared to manipulating droids into killingl the entire staff of the Peragus station and then simply wait there doing basically nothing until the Exile shows up.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Vima Da-Boda (appearing in the DE comics) who was a PT Jedi had a daughter in PT times.
Who was her daughter?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Do you want to tell me that the Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire where stronger than Ragnos ? Hard to believe.
He very well may have been. Just because it's hard for you believe doesn't mean it isn't possible.
Originally posted by Borbarad
If there were Civil Wars they would basically have lost some footsoldiers (Masassi) which doesn't really matter. The Sith Lords and the Dark Lord were only touched if somebody was able to defeat them to take their place. How often do you think that happened ?
So, the leaders of the Sith Armies in the Civil Wars just gave up after a while and their enemies didn't feel the need to kill them in revenge or out of pratical necessity?
Originally posted by Borbarad
And the Sith Empire wasn't "civilized" like our societies are civilized. Because of the rule that "The strongest must rule" the Sith Empire worked under social-darwinistic conditions meaning they used "natural selection" (through fighting) to determine their leaders.
The strongest was killed though. You may notice that Ragnos is one of the, if not the only DLOS to ever die of old age. All of the other time, the strongest of that time was killed, usually not in a fair fight either.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Now that doesn't make sense. The "true" Sith Empire always requires a Dark Lord. If the Sith Empire had still existed in times of Kun, Kun could never have become the Dark Lord because there must have been a Dark Lord somewhere in unknown space and Ragnos must have known that.
It makes even less sense that it simply congened out of nothing.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Where was the Order mainly wiped out in the Great Sith War when they still had thousands (comics) or hundrets (Jedi Academy trilogy) of Jedi left to finally confront Kun ?
I was saying that it was weakened from it's massive number prior to that which allowed it to be fore the most part wiped out in the JCW.
Originally posted by Borbarad
They could still pass on some force sensitivity before getting killed.
And please give me a source saying the Ancient Jedi Order had TENS of thousands of members.
It can be logically implied. If they fought a War that devastated their numbers(which the Great Sith War did) then them still having thousands of Jedi at the end of it shows they had to have tens of thousands.
Originally posted by Borbarad
1) Yes because SW isn't a porn movie.
2) Where have we seen Jedi getting killed by thugs in the PT ?
3) One case ? Anakin + Padme (2 children, both force sensitive), Han + Leia (3 children, all force sensitive), the mother of Ulic and Cay + their father (2 children, both force sensitive), Vima Da-Boda (daughter force sensitive). In fact we have only one case where a child with one/two Jedi parents wasn't force sensitive and that's the son of Hethrir in "Crystal Star" - on the other handside we have huge force potential coming "out of nowhere" (like Dorsk 81 and Kyp Durron).
2.)Yaddle, Yerael Poof, Tyvokka come to mind immediatly.
3.)The thing is that over the 1000 years prior to the PT, Jedi having children was forbidden. This is stated in "Jedi Trial". Some Jedi did have children since the New Sith War, but it was extremely rare.
Originally posted by Borbarad
1) Yes the Neimodians had never dealt with Jedi before but they wouldn't have opened the doors of that room if they had thought that a Jedi (even knowing that Jedi had "superhuman" abilities) couldn't have survived that.
They didn't know the power of a Jedi at all though.
Originally posted by Borbarad
2) Ulic survived the poison because of giving into the Dark Side which means his normal force powers weren't enough.
It wasn't just the poison, it was the temptation of the Darkside.
Originally posted by Borbarad
3) The air in the Jekk Jekk Tar is not really designed to kill humans. And this is gaming experience. I've walked to the club having a breathing mask on my face.
It is deadly though. And as you said in another thread, "if The Exile had killed the Jedi Masters, would Kreia not be able to use the instakill technique?" Same with the Jekk Jekk Tar. It is possible to walk through it without a mask.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Of course the Jedi Exile had a force ability (or could have it) to survive the poisoned athmosphere. But Kreia - while teaching him - says that this is an ability to work with the air you inhalated once longer than normal people can do.
The technique is called breath control. What do you think Qui-gon and Obi-wan used?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Where have you ever seen somebody moving serveral tons with a Force Push ? The heaviest force push in the movies is either Obi-Wan pushing Grievous or Yoda pushing Sidious and both didn't seem to "hurt" the opponent much.
I should have said several billion tons, for when the core's were ripped out of stars. I could also state that the Jedi's force pushes were more powerful because they were able to actually kill people, while even Yoda's didn't.
Originally posted by Borbarad
And I guess the "stunts" during the chase of the headhuntress in AotC would normally cause more damage than getting force pushed (Anakin jumping out of the speeder, falling down for more than 10 seconds and then grab onto another speeder that moves by with some high amount of speed).
Jedi have been able to levitate. He slowed himself before hitting it.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Because you have to focus on it more. It's harder to hit a basketball with a baseball bat than it is to hit a baseball. And according to Yoda the weight of the object you want to move doesn't matter.
It still requires more energy to move the basket ball.
Originally posted by Borbarad
It doesn't make the Sith weak. But they used technology and artifacts aiding their natural force powers where the Jedi didn't.
We saw Sidious turning into a real force monster using one of those "chrystals" in DE compared to what he could do in ROTS. Now think about somebody like Sadow take away his ship and his chrystals and imagine what would be left of his power.
Sadow was still much more powerful than even DE Sidious. Since he used one of Naga's Amulet's(among other Sith Artifacts in DE) it appears that even without his amulets, he would be more powerful than ROTS Sidious. ROTS Sidious was one of the top four force user's alive at that time. Assuming the loss of power is consistent(which it appears to be) and that all of the Sith Lords lost an equivalent amont of power, all of the following would be more powerful than anyone in the PT(note, this assumes Sidious gained the power he did only with one Amulet, he had several and the power loss for the Sith would be a lot lower, this is just a minor example): Ragnos, Naga, Kressh, Tulak, Ajunta, Simus, (probably) Nadd, and (probably)Exar. Remember, this is assuming that it was Naga's Amulet alone that made him so powerful, which it is not. There were many other objects that DE Sidious gathered from Korriban.
Originally posted by Borbarad
a)
If the Essential Guide takes information from the book the book would be the higher level of canon.
No, they are stated as two different holocrons in more sources than the Essential Guide. Added to the fact that the JA books never say they are the same, it is logical they are different things.
Originally posted by Borbarad
b)
In Dark Apprentice at the beginning of chapter 23 the holocron first tells Luke's students about the ancient Jedi and then how Yoda became a Jedi Knight. In the end of chapter 29 Luke takes the same holocron and demands to speak to Master Vodo (which would make no sense if the Holocron only contains informations Vodo installed in it) and Vodo tells him about Exar Kun.
What's your point? Vodo was the gatekeeper to his holocron, others added to it.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Ossus contained a museum so a 10,000 year old lightsaber (which must have been one of the first lightsaber constructed since lightsabers where invented in 9,990 BBY) doesn't mean that the Jedi where on Ossus at that time. We don't know since when they were there.
Let me guess, you got that info from wikipedia, didn't you? If you did, I bet you'll be happy to hear it's not true. The New Essential Guide to Chronology(I love being one of the first people to get it) states that the Jedi had lightsabers prior to the Plus Dea period, which began in 12,000 B.B.Y. making a 9,990 date at least two thousand years off. It is implied that some Jedi began experimenting with "frozen laser" technology as early as 25,000 B.B.Y. making your number off by over 15,000 years.
Originally posted by Borbarad
What we know is that Odan-urr installed the Library / Museum on Ossus after his Master Ooroo was killed and that happened while fighting against Naga Sadow (so 5,000 BBY). That means the library and museum of Ossus were present from 5,000 BBY to 3,996 BBY when Ossus was destroyed.
That doesn't make any sense. The lightsaber was CONSTRUCTED on Ossus, not stored there. Also, why would it be in a museum if it wasn't the first lightsaber, and since it wasn't by a long time, it wasn't in the museum.
Originally posted by Borbarad
They didn't make normal bandits flee by simply revealing theirselves to be Jedi or touching their lightsaber. And if Darsha (a padawan) can use mind control on an entire gang of bandits (Shadow Hunter) why shouldn't Andur Sunrider (an ancient Jedi Knight) do the same ? Except he couldn't do that...
These guys had a stronger mind, perhaps. I don't know.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Who was her daughter?
I don't recall her name. It's stated in the DE comics that Vima failed to rescue her and then she went dark side, slaughtered the guy responsible for her daughters death and she started losing her connection to the force.
He very well may have been. Just because it's hard for you believe doesn't mean it isn't possible.
The Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi in their time. So do you want to tell me that a bunch of guys being more powerful than Ragnos (who was basically "godlike"😉 can be defeated by Jedi ?
So, the leaders of the Sith Armies in the Civil Wars just gave up after a while and their enemies didn't feel the need to kill them in revenge or out of pratical necessity?
It basically makes no sense to assume that the Sith Lords had real Civil Wars going on for the entire time. They had Massasi to fight in these wars. By any logic - a Sith Lord like Ragnos, Sadow or Kressh could have schooled hundrets or even thousands of Massasi on his own so why wasting them against enemies like that ?
For all we know they duelled to see who was the strongest (Ragnos killed Simus in a duel) and that isn't simply removing them from the "genetic pool" because they did live for several hundret years and could easily have produced children before reaching the real positions of power.
The strongest was killed though. You may notice that Ragnos is one of the, if not the only DLOS to ever die of old age. All of the other time, the strongest of that time was killed, usually not in a fair fight either.
See above. And why would they not do it in fair fights if the "strongest" should rule - that doesn't mean "the most manipulative one". These are not the PT Sith.
It makes even less sense that it simply congened out of nothing.
Very nice, Glentract. It makes sense to have two persons in a position that only one could have at any time ?
I was saying that it was weakened from it's massive number prior to that which allowed it to be fore the most part wiped out in the JCW.It can be logically implied. If they fought a War that devastated their numbers(which the Great Sith War did) then them still having thousands of Jedi at the end of it shows they had to have tens of thousands.
Again a very nice use of twisted logic. First you state that the battle against the Krath droids has only costed the life of a "few" Jedi to make them look better than the PT Jedi on Geonosis. Then you go on telling me that this battle - the only one we know of where actually massive numbers of Jedi were present - has decimated their numbers greatly.
From that point you conclude that there must have been TENS of thousands of Jedi because they still had a huge number left to fight Kun.
Can you tell me where the other thousands of Jedi were killed considering the fact that they were more powerful than the PT Jedi and there were only very few Dark Siders around ?
3.)The thing is that over the 1000 years prior to the PT, Jedi having children was forbidden. This is stated in "Jedi Trial". Some Jedi did have children since the New Sith War, but it was extremely rare.
The 1000 years prior to the PT ? You talking about the era between the battle of Ruusan and the PT ? Sorry...but this statement is contradicted by past-ROTJ literature and Lucas himself.
They didn't know the power of a Jedi at all though.
They still rated it high enough to fear them despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on the ship to stop them.
I should have said several billion tons, for when the core's were ripped out of stars. I could also state that the Jedi's force pushes were more powerful because they were able to actually kill people, while even Yoda's didn't.
Ripping the core of a star out is a "force push" for you ? Nice. Have you ever seen people "force pushing" large objects ? Yes ? Every force user in KotoR times is more powerful than Yoda because being able to hurt people by force pushing them ? Also very nice.
Jedi have been able to levitate. He slowed himself before hitting it.
He wasn't still slowing down the speeder. Ever tried to grab on a car driving by ?
It still requires more energy to move the basket ball.
Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes.
Sadow was still much more powerful than even DE Sidious. Since he used one of Naga's Amulet's(among other Sith Artifacts in DE) it appears that even without his amulets, he would be more powerful than ROTS Sidious. ROTS Sidious was one of the top four force user's alive at that time. Assuming the loss of power is consistent(which it appears to be) and that all of the Sith Lords lost an equivalent amont of power, all of the following would be more powerful than anyone in the PT(note, this assumes Sidious gained the power he did only with one Amulet, he had several and the power loss for the Sith would be a lot lower, this is just a minor example): Ragnos, Naga, Kressh, Tulak, Ajunta, Simus, (probably) Nadd, and (probably)Exar. Remember, this is assuming that it was Naga's Amulet alone that made him so powerful, which it is not. There were many other objects that DE Sidious gathered from Korriban.
Sadow used his amulett, his ship and SOME chrystals boosting his force powers to do what he did. Actually more things than DE Sidious had. And Kun himself having entire Sith temples to focus his own force powers and a Sith amulett wasn't able to destroy the Republic fleet that came to kill him where Sidious was able to obliterate fleets with his force storms.
No, they are stated as two different holocrons in more sources than the Essential Guide. Added to the fact that the JA books never say they are the same, it is logical they are different things.
There is only ONE holocron. Through the entire JA books it's always called THE Jedi Holocron. Not "one of the holocrons" not "a Jedi Holocron" - the Jedi Holocron because there is only one of them.
What's your point? Vodo was the gatekeeper to his holocron, others added to it.
Yeah. Right. Perfect. If Vodo was the gatekeeper of his holocron he would have been the first person showing up when somebody uses the holocron making it pretty pointless to have Luke asking to speak to Vodo.
Let me guess, you got that info from wikipedia, didn't you? If you did, I bet you'll be happy to hear it's not true. The New Essential Guide to Chronology(I love being one of the first people to get it) states that the Jedi had lightsabers prior to the Plus Dea period, which began in 12,000 B.B.Y. making a 9,990 date at least two thousand years off. It is implied that some Jedi began experimenting with "frozen laser" technology as early as 25,000 B.B.Y. making your number off by over 15,000 years.
I was simply using the last numbers I had - does that matter for your argumentation here ? And you know that the Essential Guides chronology (where there is no other source and this is the case for most things that did happen prior to 5,000 BBY) is based on the WotC SW RPG ?
On the same level we can simply end this discussion because Yoda would kill anyone else according to WotC sources and even people like Vader, Dooku, Sidious and Mace have a good chance to defeat Kun on their own (Kun is rated level 17; Vader, Sidious, Dooku and Mace 18).
That doesn't make any sense. The lightsaber was CONSTRUCTED on Ossus, not stored there. Also, why would it be in a museum if it wasn't the first lightsaber, and since it wasn't by a long time, it wasn't in the museum.
Yes ? Give me some proof or a single statement that this lightsaber was constructed on Ossus 10,000 years BBY and not simply stored in the museum there. Why the hell would a 10,000 year old lightsaber simply lie around on Ossus if NOT being in the museum ? Again the only source mentioning Ossus before 5,000 BBY is the WotC game.
These guys had a stronger mind, perhaps. I don't know.
Andur should still have been able to deal with some thugs instead of getting killed.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't recall her name. It's stated in the DE comics that Vima failed to rescue her and then she went dark side, slaughtered the guy responsible for her daughters death and she started losing her connection to the force.
Now I remember that. It was Neema or something.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi in their time. So do you want to tell me that a bunch of guys being more powerful than Ragnos (who was basically "godlike"😉 can be defeated by Jedi ?
Yes.
Originally posted by Borbarad
It basically makes no sense to assume that the Sith Lords had real Civil Wars going on for the entire time. They had Massasi to fight in these wars. By any logic - a Sith Lord like Ragnos, Sadow or Kressh could have schooled hundrets or even thousands of Massasi on his own so why wasting them against enemies like that ?
If a single Sith could school hundreds or thousands of Massassi, what would be the point of using Massassi in combat? Just to let you know, the True Sith Empire only lasted 2,000 years. It is possible Wars lasted most of that time.
Originally posted by Borbarad
For all we know they duelled to see who was the strongest (Ragnos killed Simus in a duel) and that isn't simply removing them from the "genetic pool" because they did live for several hundret years and could easily have produced children before reaching the real positions of power.
COULD have doesn't mean they did. Prove up, Nai.
Originally posted by Borbarad
See above. And why would they not do it in fair fights if the "strongest" should rule - that doesn't mean "the most manipulative one". These are not the PT Sith.
They killed each other by firing on an enemy ship(Malak, Naga) betraying their location to an overwhelming enemy force(Gav) letting age kill them(everyone on Ragnos) letting someone else weaken them and then shoot them with a blaser(Naga on Simus). Name one occasion when one Sith killed another in a fair fight.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Very nice, Glentract. It makes sense to have two persons in a position that only one could have at any time ?
Explain where the Sith Empire came from after Exar died then.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Again a very nice use of twisted logic. First you state that the battle against the Krath droids has only costed the life of a "few" Jedi to make them look better than the PT Jedi on Geonosis. Then you go on telling me that this battle - the only one we know of where actually massive numbers of Jedi were present - has decimated their numbers greatly.
From that point you conclude that there must have been TENS of thousands of Jedi because they still had a huge number left to fight Kun.
Can you tell me where the other thousands of Jedi were killed considering the fact that they were more powerful than the PT Jedi and there were only very few Dark Siders around ?
1. Explain Raxus Prime then. The Dark Reaper killed hundreds of Jedi there.
2. Explain the hundreds of possesed diciples Exar sent out to go kill Jedi after he killed Vodo.
3. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Onderon.
4. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Coruscant.
5. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed on Ossus when Ulic's forces kept many Jedi from escaping.
Then explain all of the other battles in which I am to lazy to name right now.
Really, there aren't many losses for the Jedi, now are there.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The 1000 years prior to the PT ? You talking about the era between the battle of Ruusan and the PT ? Sorry...but this statement is contradicted by past-ROTJ literature and Lucas himself.
Name some instances in which this is stated. I want some book titles and actual sites with GL stating that.
Originally posted by Borbarad
They still rated it high enough to fear them despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on the ship to stop them.
They were cowards. Sidious had enough Clone Troopers on hand to kill Yoda yet he was still afraid of him.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Ripping the core of a star out is a "force push" for you ? Nice. Have you ever seen people "force pushing" large objects ? Yes ? Every force user in KotoR times is more powerful than Yoda because being able to hurt people by force pushing them ? Also very nice.
What do you think they used instead of a force push? Prove up when you state it's different.
So Yoda didn't hurt those two guards when he force pushed them against the wall and knocked them unconcious? Thanks for being a loser and twisting my words.
Originally posted by Borbarad
He wasn't still slowing down the speeder. Ever tried to grab on a car driving by ?
I actually have. I grabed a car that was going ~30 miles per hour and was fine.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes.
They can only let a certain amount of this energy through. If I had a 1 inch pipe and I was trying to drain the ocean and you had a 100 foot wide pipe and you were trying to do the same thing, you would be able to acess more water.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Sadow used his amulett, his ship and SOME chrystals boosting his force powers to do what he did. Actually more things than DE Sidious had. And Kun himself having entire Sith temples to focus his own force powers and a Sith amulett wasn't able to destroy the Republic fleet that came to kill him where Sidious was able to obliterate fleets with his force storms.
Sidious had control of the Eclipse. Also, show some source that shows that Nada used mutiple amulets.
Originally posted by Borbarad
There is only ONE holocron. Through the entire JA books it's always called [b]THE Jedi Holocron. Not "one of the holocrons" not "a Jedi Holocron" - the Jedi Holocron because there is only one of them. [/B]
Just like there was only ONE battle in the Great Sith War, huh. You have one source against mutiple ones I have presented.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. Perfect. If Vodo was [b]the gatekeeper of his holocron he would have been the first person showing up when somebody uses the holocron making it pretty pointless to have Luke asking to speak to Vodo. [/B]
Hmm? I'm not getting what you're saying here. You are the one who said he asking for Vodo. Sidious had Bodo's holocron. Vodo's was the one that was destroyed.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I was simply using the last numbers I had - does that matter for your argumentation here ? And you know that the Essential Guides chronology (where there is no other source and this is the case for most things that did happen prior to 5,000 BBY) is based on the WotC SW RPG ? On the same level we can simply end this discussion because Yoda would kill anyone else according to WotC sources and even people like Vader, Dooku, Sidious and Mace have a good chance to defeat Kun on their own (Kun is rated level 17; Vader, Sidious, Dooku and Mace 18).
Sorry, but the Essential Guides are canon only surpassed by the Movies and a GL quote.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes ? Give me some proof or a single statement that this lightsaber was constructed on Ossus 10,000 years BBY and not simply stored in the museum there. Why the hell would a 10,000 year old lightsaber simply lie around on Ossus if NOT being in the museum ? Again the only source mentioning Ossus before 5,000 BBY is the WotC game.
Name a source that contradicts it that is a higher level. Unless you can do so, your oint is mute.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Andur should still have been able to deal with some thugs instead of getting killed.
Like I said, I have no answer for that.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't recall her name. It's stated in the DE comics that Vima failed to rescue her and then she went dark side, slaughtered the guy responsible for her daughters death and she started losing her connection to the force.
Now I remember that. It was Neema or something.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi in their time. So do you want to tell me that a bunch of guys being more powerful than Ragnos (who was basically "godlike"😉 can be defeated by Jedi ?
Yes.
Originally posted by Borbarad
It basically makes no sense to assume that the Sith Lords had real Civil Wars going on for the entire time. They had Massasi to fight in these wars. By any logic - a Sith Lord like Ragnos, Sadow or Kressh could have schooled hundrets or even thousands of Massasi on his own so why wasting them against enemies like that ?
If a single Sith could school hundreds or thousands of Massassi, what would be the point of using Massassi in combat? Just to let you know, the True Sith Empire only lasted 2,000 years. It is possible Wars lasted most of that time.
Originally posted by Borbarad
For all we know they duelled to see who was the strongest (Ragnos killed Simus in a duel) and that isn't simply removing them from the "genetic pool" because they did live for several hundret years and could easily have produced children before reaching the real positions of power.
COULD have doesn't mean they did. Prove up, Nai.
Originally posted by Borbarad
See above. And why would they not do it in fair fights if the "strongest" should rule - that doesn't mean "the most manipulative one". These are not the PT Sith.
They killed each other by firing on an enemy ship(Malak, Naga) betraying their location to an overwhelming enemy force(Gav) letting age kill them(everyone on Ragnos) letting someone else weaken them and then shoot them with a blaser(Naga on Simus). Name one occasion when one Sith killed another in a fair fight.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Very nice, Glentract. It makes sense to have two persons in a position that only one could have at any time ?
Explain where the Sith Empire came from after Exar died then.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Again a very nice use of twisted logic. First you state that the battle against the Krath droids has only costed the life of a "few" Jedi to make them look better than the PT Jedi on Geonosis. Then you go on telling me that this battle - the only one we know of where actually massive numbers of Jedi were present - has decimated their numbers greatly.
From that point you conclude that there must have been TENS of thousands of Jedi because they still had a huge number left to fight Kun.
Can you tell me where the other thousands of Jedi were killed considering the fact that they were more powerful than the PT Jedi and there were only very few Dark Siders around ?
1. Explain Raxus Prime then. The Dark Reaper killed hundreds of Jedi there.
2. Explain the hundreds of possesed diciples Exar sent out to go kill Jedi after he killed Vodo.
3. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Onderon.
4. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Coruscant.
5. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed on Ossus when Ulic's forces kept many Jedi from escaping.
Then explain all of the other battles in which I am to lazy to name right now.
Really, there aren't many losses for the Jedi, now are there.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The 1000 years prior to the PT ? You talking about the era between the battle of Ruusan and the PT ? Sorry...but this statement is contradicted by past-ROTJ literature and Lucas himself.
Name some instances in which this is stated. I want some book titles and actual sites with GL stating that.
Originally posted by Borbarad
They still rated it high enough to fear them despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on the ship to stop them.
They were cowards. Sidious had enough Clone Troopers on hand to kill Yoda yet he was still afraid of him.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Ripping the core of a star out is a "force push" for you ? Nice. Have you ever seen people "force pushing" large objects ? Yes ? Every force user in KotoR times is more powerful than Yoda because being able to hurt people by force pushing them ? Also very nice.
What do you think they used instead of a force push? Prove up when you state it's different.
So Yoda didn't hurt those two guards when he force pushed them against the wall and knocked them unconcious? Thanks for being a loser and twisting my words.
Originally posted by Borbarad
He wasn't still slowing down the speeder. Ever tried to grab on a car driving by ?
I actually have. I grabed a car that was going ~30 miles per hour and was fine.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes.
They can only let a certain amount of this energy through. If I had a 1 inch pipe and I was trying to drain the ocean and you had a 100 foot wide pipe and you were trying to do the same thing, you would be able to acess more water.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Sadow used his amulett, his ship and SOME chrystals boosting his force powers to do what he did. Actually more things than DE Sidious had. And Kun himself having entire Sith temples to focus his own force powers and a Sith amulett wasn't able to destroy the Republic fleet that came to kill him where Sidious was able to obliterate fleets with his force storms.
Sidious had control of the Eclipse. Also, show some source that shows that Nada used mutiple amulets.
Originally posted by Borbarad
There is only ONE holocron. Through the entire JA books it's always called [b]THE Jedi Holocron. Not "one of the holocrons" not "a Jedi Holocron" - the Jedi Holocron because there is only one of them. [/B]
Just like there was only ONE battle in the Great Sith War, huh. You have one source against mutiple ones I have presented.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. Perfect. If Vodo was [b]the gatekeeper of his holocron he would have been the first person showing up when somebody uses the holocron making it pretty pointless to have Luke asking to speak to Vodo. [/B]
Hmm? I'm not getting what you're saying here. You are the one who said he asking for Vodo. Sidious had Bodo's holocron. Vodo's was the one that was destroyed.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I was simply using the last numbers I had - does that matter for your argumentation here ? And you know that the Essential Guides chronology (where there is no other source and this is the case for most things that did happen prior to 5,000 BBY) is based on the WotC SW RPG ? On the same level we can simply end this discussion because Yoda would kill anyone else according to WotC sources and even people like Vader, Dooku, Sidious and Mace have a good chance to defeat Kun on their own (Kun is rated level 17; Vader, Sidious, Dooku and Mace 18).
Sorry, but the Essential Guides are canon only surpassed by the Movies and a GL quote.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes ? Give me some proof or a single statement that this lightsaber was constructed on Ossus 10,000 years BBY and not simply stored in the museum there. Why the hell would a 10,000 year old lightsaber simply lie around on Ossus if NOT being in the museum ? Again the only source mentioning Ossus before 5,000 BBY is the WotC game.
Name a source that contradicts it that is a higher level. Unless you can do so, your oint is mute.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Andur should still have been able to deal with some thugs instead of getting killed.
Like I said, I have no answer for that.