Kyp Durron vs. Count Dooku

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes.

Of course, Glentract.

If a single Sith could school hundreds or thousands of Massassi, what would be the point of using Massassi in combat? Just to let you know, the True Sith Empire only lasted 2,000 years. It is possible Wars lasted most of that time.

The question was what would be the point to use Massasi against each other in combat ? Having more troops doesn't mean you're the "stronger" person.

COULD have doesn't mean they did. Prove up, Nai.

Prove the opposite. This leads nowhere.

They killed each other by firing on an enemy ship(Malak, Naga) betraying their location to an overwhelming enemy force(Gav) letting age kill them(everyone on Ragnos) letting someone else weaken them and then shoot them with a blaser(Naga on Simus). Name one occasion when one Sith killed another in a fair fight.

Hell, Glentract. Malak is a lord of the ancient Sith Empire ? No. Naga was defending the title that he already did have. Gav is a Sith ? ROFL. Letting age do the thing instead of getting killed - who would not do that ? Naga vs Simus head in a box? Nice fight. lol.
Simus vs Ragnos - fair fight since it has been a duel and Ragnos beheaded Simus.
Naga vs Sadow - they did fight for the title in a duel until Ragnos' spirit has shown up.

Explain where the Sith Empire came from after Exar died then.

What "Sith Empire" ? Next Sith after Exar were Revan and Malak and you know where they came from.

1. Explain Raxus Prime then. The Dark Reaper killed hundreds of Jedi there.

Awful enough...

2. Explain the hundreds of possesed diciples Exar sent out to go kill Jedi after he killed Vodo.

Millions Glentract...billions even...

3. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Onderon.

When ?

4. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Coruscant.

When ?

5. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed on Ossus when Ulic's forces kept many Jedi from escaping.

When ?

Hell...does "throwing random numbers in and call them canon" is your favourite game now or what ? Did we ever see thousands of Jedi being killed ? Did it say somewhere that thousands of Jedi were killed ? No ? Then stop that "thousands of Jedi" thing.

Name some instances in which this is stated. I want some book titles and actual sites with GL stating that.

I have given several examples for Jedi between Ruusan and the PT having children and Lucas said in an interview with BBC that he never thought about the Jedi being celibate.

What do you think they used instead of a force push? Prove up when you state it's different.

Levitation abilities. Simple as that. Or do you want to tell me that Yoda "force pushed" that big thing made of metal away that Dooku threw on Obi-Wan and Anakin ? And Aleema Keto "carried" the core of a star with her and threw it onto the Republics fleet. Force push ?

So Yoda didn't hurt those two guards when he force pushed them against the wall and knocked them unconcious? Thanks for being a loser and twisting my words.

Oh. I'm a loser ? And least I don't have to lie to people here, hmm ? Did he kill them with that action ? Did he hurt Sidious with force pushing him ?

I actually have. I grabed a car that was going ~30 miles per hour and was fine.

You were standing around somewhere and - just for the fun of it - grabed a car that was going around 30 miles per hour and kept hanging on it while it went on without getting hurt ? You must show me that trick one day - and that speeder was moving FAR faster than 30 mph.

They can only let a certain amount of this energy through. If I had a 1 inch pipe and I was trying to drain the ocean and you had a 100 foot wide pipe and you were trying to do the same thing, you would be able to acess more water.

And now ? What do you want to tell me ?

Sidious had control of the Eclipse. Also, show some source that shows that Nada used mutiple amulets.

Since when is the Eclipse a product of Sith Alchemy aiding once force powers ? And Sadow didn't use multiple amulets. He used multiple chrystals, his amulet and his ship. And that is a fact because all those things are present when Aleema is using Sadow's ship to destroy Ossus.

Just like there was only ONE battle in the Great Sith War, huh. You have one source against mutiple ones I have presented.

You presented one...

Hmm? I'm not getting what you're saying here. You are the one who said he asking for Vodo. Sidious had Bodo's holocron. Vodo's was the one that was destroyed.

It is the same holocron. Bodo received it as a heir of Vodo, organized the information stored in it and made himself the new gatekeeper. Then Sidious took it after Bodo was killed. That's it.

Sorry, but the Essential Guides are canon only surpassed by the Movies and a GL quote.

Since when ? The Essential Guides only takes information from different sources and organizes them. If the Essential Guides uses information from the WotC game does that make the WotC game more canon than any EU source or what ? In fact everything can be considered more "canon" than the Essential Guides because they are just a summary of things shown in different EU sources. So if the Essential Guides contradicts the actual EU sources it is simply wrong.

Name a source that contradicts it that is a higher level. Unless you can do so, your oint is mute.

Higher level according to what ? WotC game = EU, Tales of the Jedi = EU. Essential guide taking information from both = EU. If you want to take the Essential guides or the WotC game as "higher level" canon compared to TOTJ this discussion is senseless as I've told you.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The question was what would be the point to use Massasi against each other in combat ? Having more troops doesn't mean you're the "stronger" person.

You were the one who said the Massassi fought instead of the Sith. This isn't true. Unless mutated by Sith Magic(Like Naga's Massassi) they were good for nothing except building things. Since the Sith fought Wars and the Massassi were much weaker than the Sith, it is only logical that the Sith fought each other personally, especially since Kreia tells us that Civil War is the Way of the Sith.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Prove the opposite. This leads nowhere.

Burden of proof is on you.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Hell, Glentract. Malak is a lord of the ancient Sith Empire ? No. Naga was defending the title that he already did have. Gav is a Sith ? ROFL. Letting age do the thing instead of getting killed - who would not do that ? Naga vs Simus head in a box? Nice fight. lol.
Simus vs Ragnos - fair fight since it has been a duel and Ragnos beheaded Simus.
Naga vs Sadow - they did fight for the title in a duel until Ragnos' spirit has shown up.

Naga was not defending his title, he was fighting for it against Kressh. Gav was was Sadow's apprentice. Letting age do it instead, still isn't a fair fight. Naga vs. Sadow? I don't remember that one. If you mean Naga vs. Kressh, it doesn't matter because they didn't kill one another.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What "Sith Empire" ? Next Sith after Exar were Revan and Malak and you know where they came from.

The True Sith Empire still existed though. That was what Revan went to fight. Kreia tells up that Revan's Empire and the True Sith Empire are different things.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Awful enough...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Millions Glentract...billions even...

What problem do you have with this? Any reason for making fun of it?

Originally posted by Borbarad
When ?

Essential Guide to Chronology: It was in one of the Battles of Onderon, I don't remember which one. There were thousands of Jedi Archeologist on Onderon and the Mandalorian forces went in and slaugtered them.

Originally posted by Borbarad
When ?

Essential Guide to Chronology: When Ulic used the Mandalorians to launch an attack on Coruscant. The attack was unsuccessful(Ulic was captured), but thousands of Jedi died in the Defense of Coruscant.

Originally posted by Borbarad
When ?

Essential Guide to Chronology: When the Jedi were trying to evacuate Ossus after the star went Nova.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Hell...does "throwing random numbers in and call them canon" is your favourite game now or what ? Did we ever see thousands of Jedi being killed ? Did it say somewhere that thousands of Jedi were killed ? No ? Then stop that "thousands of Jedi" thing.

Yes, it did. The Essential Guide to Chronology has tons of info in it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I have given several examples for Jedi between Ruusan and the PT having children and Lucas said in an interview with BBC that he never thought about the Jedi being celibate.

Could you recap on them, I can't find them.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Levitation abilities. Simple as that. Or do you want to tell me that Yoda "force pushed" that big thing made of metal away that Dooku threw on Obi-Wan and Anakin ? And Aleema Keto "carried" the core of a star with her and threw it onto the Republics fleet. Force push ?

And how do you think it was levitated? Were they using force push in a direction opposite of gravity? Yes, they were.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. I'm a loser ? And least I don't have to lie to people here, hmm ? Did he kill them with that action ? Did he hurt Sidious with force pushing him ?

Now I am lying? You're twisting my words. I said he knocked them unconcious. Seeing them lying on the ground, motionless, didn't lead you to the same conclusion? He probably did hurts Sidious when he force pushed him. Did he kill him or knock him unconcious? No, but it did hurt him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You were standing around somewhere and - just for the fun of it - grabed a car that was going around 30 miles per hour and kept hanging on it while it went on without getting hurt ? You must show me that trick one day - and that speeder was moving FAR faster than 30 mph.

I'm not a Jedi. If I can jump onto a car moving thirty, a Jedi should be able to jump onto a speeder moving a hundred.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now ? What do you want to tell me ?

It was your statement. You said, "Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes." I was saying that even though that energy is there, they can only acess a certain amount at a given time.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when is the Eclipse a product of Sith Alchemy aiding once force powers ? And Sadow didn't use multiple amulets. He used multiple chrystals, his amulet and his ship. And that is a fact because all those things are present when Aleema is using Sadow's ship to destroy Ossus.

The Eclipse engaged the fleets. Sidious commanded the Eclipse. Prove that those things were with Aleema. You're dodging the bullet.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You presented one...

I presented Raxus Prime, the Battle of Onderon, the Battle of Coruscant, and the Battle of Ossus. That isn't just one.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It is the same holocron. Bodo received it as a heir of Vodo, organized the information stored in it and made himself the new gatekeeper. Then Sidious took it after Bodo was killed. That's it.

That's not what the Essential Guide says and the Essentail Guides have canon over regular books.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when ? The Essential Guides only takes information from different sources and organizes them. If the Essential Guides uses information from the WotC game does that make the WotC game more canon than any EU source or what ? In fact everything can be considered more "canon" than the Essential Guides because they are just a summary of things shown in different EU sources. So if the Essential Guides contradicts the actual EU sources it is simply wrong.

The Essential Guides are personally authorised by Lucas though.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Higher level according to what ? WotC game = EU, Tales of the Jedi = EU. Essential guide taking information from both = EU. If you want to take the Essential guides or the WotC game as "higher level" canon compared to TOTJ this discussion is senseless as I've told you.

I guess we'll just need to ask a mod what KMC's canon policy in this instance is, then.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You were the one who said the Massassi fought instead of the Sith. This isn't true. Unless mutated by Sith Magic(Like Naga's Massassi) they were good for nothing except building things. Since the Sith fought Wars and the Massassi were much weaker than the Sith, it is only logical that the Sith fought each other personally, especially since Kreia tells us that Civil War is the Way of the Sith.

Massasi = workers / fighers
Sith = dominating the Massasi being force users (Sith priesthood)
Who would be powerful enough to lead an army of Sith priests into battle (civil war) ?

Naga was not defending his title, he was fighting for it against Kressh.

Naga was the DLOS when he blasted Kressh's ship.

Gav was was Sadow's apprentice.

Was Gav a real Sith ? No.

Letting age do it instead, still isn't a fair fight.

Again: "The strongest shall rule." In case of Ragnos the strongest did rule. Why somebody should waste his life trying to fight somebody that he can't defeat ?

If you mean Naga vs. Kressh, it doesn't matter because they didn't kill one another.

They were fighting for the title of the Dark Lord so it does matter. It was a duel. Same thing with Ragnos vs Simus.

The True Sith Empire still existed though. That was what Revan went to fight. Kreia tells up that Revan's Empire and the True Sith Empire are different things.

If the ancient Sith Empire still existed Revan, Malak and Exar Kun could never have been Dark Lords of the Sith because there can only be one Dark Lord at any time. Ragnos did give that title to Kun personally so at least Kun had a justification to use that title which means there was no other Dark Lord at this time which means that the Sith Empire didn't exist any longer.
And since yourself statet that literature is on a higher level of canon than the cames TOTJ and JA book > KotoR II.

Essential Guide to Chronology: It was in one of the Battles of Onderon, I don't remember which one. There were thousands of Jedi Archeologist on Onderon and the Mandalorian forces went in and slaugtered them.

Give me the real source that states that there were thousands of Jedi Archeologist on Onderon.

Essential Guide to Chronology: When Ulic used the Mandalorians to launch an attack on Coruscant. The attack was unsuccessful(Ulic was captured), but thousands of Jedi died in the Defense of Coruscant.

Give me the real source stating that thousands of Jedi died during that attack.

Essential Guide to Chronology: When the Jedi were trying to evacuate Ossus after the star went Nova.

Again: Give me the source stating that thousands of Jedi were killed.

Yes, it did. The Essential Guide to Chronology has tons of info in it.

Real sources please.

Could you recap on them, I can't find them.

Vima Da-Boda's mother (-> Vima)
Vima herself (-> her daughter)
Xanatos (-> had a son)
Halcyon, Corran's grandfather (died in the Clone Wars)
Sharad Hett (-> A'Sharad Hett)

Lucas statement about Jedi being celibate:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/1989505.stm

Quote:"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."

And how do you think it was levitated? Were they using force push in a direction opposite of gravity? Yes, they were.

What a theory. A force push is a short wave of kynetic energy going in one direction. What are you trying to tell me ? That Yoda force pushed Luke's X-Wing out of the swamp on Dagobah ?

Now I am lying? You're twisting my words. I said he knocked them unconcious. Seeing them lying on the ground, motionless, didn't lead you to the same conclusion? He probably did hurts Sidious when he force pushed him. Did he kill him or knock him unconcious? No, but it did hurt him.

Do you see a difference between hurting people by just force pushing them and thereby send them flying until they land on the ground and slamming them to a wall by force pushing them ? There is one.

I'm not a Jedi. If I can jump onto a car moving thirty, a Jedi should be able to jump onto a speeder moving a hundred.

The point is if you grab to a vehicle moving with a considerable amount of speed you will either not be able to grab on it and then hanging on it or you will get several broken bones trying to do so.

It was your statement. You said, "Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes." I was saying that even though that energy is there, they can only acess a certain amount at a given time.

Yes. A certain amount. Considering how much power the force provides the energy required to move a few tons of stuff (like Luke's X-Wing) is a very small part of the entire force energy present. Therefore it basically only requires focus to move objects and therefore it's harder to move a grain of sand than moving a bigger object.

The Eclipse engaged the fleets. Sidious commanded the Eclipse. Prove that those things were with Aleema. You're dodging the bullet.

a) Sidious unleashed a force storm that destroy ships.
b) Read the comics if you don't thrust me.

I presented Raxus Prime, the Battle of Onderon, the Battle of Coruscant, and the Battle of Ossus. That isn't just one.

I was talking about battles where thousands of Jedi were present and you simply estimated which battles would fit into that category by estimating there must have been thousands of Jedi in this or that place without providing a real source for it.

That's not what the Essential Guide says and the Essentail Guides have canon over regular books.

No it doesn't because the Essential Guide only takes informations from the books. By saying the Essential guide is canon over regular books you're saying that the books are canon over the books and nothing more.

The Essential Guides are personally authorised by Lucas though.

So are the books, the Clone War cartoons, the WotC RPG stats and so on...

I guess we'll just need to ask a mod what KMC's canon policy in this instance is, then.

You are stating that the Essential Guides are > books and that isn't simply true because the Essential Guides are using the books as sources and they are even using the WotC RPG, the videogames and the cartoons / comics and by any means the WotC RPG and the games aren't higher "canon" then the books. And if you think that they are then this debate is pointless because by giving the WotC RPG a status of being higher canon than the books Yoda > all ; Dooku, Mace, Sidious, OT Vader > Exar Kun.

Like I said in the other thread we have been debating over, I'm done with this. Neither of us is making a point, it's turned into a waste of time. I think I'm right, you think you are. Neither of us can change the other's mind. Moving on.

In terms of Kyps force potential, I believe him to be more powerful then Luke based on the assumption that both Luke and Leia are equally as powerful. If you remeber in the jedi academy novels when Luke presses the nub (only present in a potential jedis brain) in Leia he is only pushed back slightly but when he does it to Kyp he is thrown across the room.