Kyp Durron vs. Count Dooku

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I'd like to point out that the jedi of the PT era have shown force attunement much lower than that... notice that when the jedi felt Anakin's pain they were meditating...

Still they felt it.

But in combat, they've shown lack of awareness and been taken by surprise. If they were so in tune as you suggest, Nai, Order 66 would have been mostly a failure.

First off their ability to use the force was clouded by the Dark Side (quote from AotC). Second: Do you want to tell me that ancient Jedi had shown more "awareness" while getting killed by assasins that are seem to just think about Pazaak ? And some of the Jedi were not really surprised but simply horribly outgunned (have a look at Ki-Adi-Mund - he turns around before the first shot is fired and he commanded the clones to follow him so they did nothing unusual meaning he must have sensed something and then he was taken by superior firepower).
And why would you be aware or think of permanent danger commanding troops that practically do not have their own will ?

- For one, you claim that the PT jedi have more powers and thus must be better. This fails to address the very idea that there are.... MORE PT jedi era sources than there are older jedi sources! If I have three pieces of art from one time period and fifty from another, is the latter period more artistic? Hell no! This is poor sampling![/quore]

Wrong. I claim that they have:
a) more refined abilities
b) more powers because some ancient time Jedi didn't simply use powers PT Jedi have when they would most likely have used them (for example to avoid getting killed by some "nobody"😉

[quote]
- You've established "facts" in your theory. A theory may contain facts, but it cannot lead up TO facts. You are theorizing. All conclusions are just that: theories.

Sorry...simply wrong expression on my side here.

CW Cartoon? Gay. I like how you accept that as canon and disagree with other things that aren't nearly as inconsistant with the saga. Nice.

Oh. Where are the big inconsitant things here ? On that level I can disagree with the entire EU (TOTJ because of training times, same with NJO, JA the Thrawn trilogy not to mention the DE series and so on...)

Second, Obi-Wan felt the death of Alderaan. He didn't particularly do much more than furl an eyebrow.

He had to sit down immediatly and Luke could SEE that something has happened. I call that more than "furl an eyebrow".

Billions felt the deaths over Malachor. It is reputed to have echoed across the galaxy, affecting all.

Oh yes. Luke Skywalker can't sense the destruction of Alderaan with all the potential he has and in the entirety of the EU nobody without some force practice was able to sense entire sunsystems blown up by Kyp Durron but Malachor could be sensed by "normal people" ?

lso, the jedi temple depicted in the TOTJ comic and in KOTOR is very different from the one in the PT saga. I don't know where you got the idea that they are the same.

Where did we see the Jedi temple from the outside in KotoR ? It's different in the TOTJ comics (sorry...I don't have them here at the moment) ? Still movies > comics. And I got that idea from the starwars.com databank (EU article about the Jedi Temple).

Like I said, Nai, I'll go over your theory with a fine toothed comb and get back to you on it. Not assumig I'll ever change your mind, but I think if you're gonna show one side of the argument, I should show the other side.

And we'll leave the considering of evidence to neutral third parties.

k so glentract.

first off your points with kuns and kyp fighting doesnt matter. over time(4,000 years) the spirit and kuns powers more than likely deteriorated alot. and with luke being good as some of the knights of the pt ere as of ROTJ i have to disagree still it just doesnt make sense to me someone with like what 3 years maybe of training being better than somneone with i dunno 14 years is better? doubt it. the thing with me sayin i dont think luke concentraited much on lightsabercombat is just an opinion remeber i got nothin to prove it. kyp fough to the death more being none of them used the force though did they. i do think that anikin was better in AOTC then obi wan was in TPM only obiwan was more levelheaded. to say that dooku(being one of the greatest of his time) isnt a good duelist compared to kyp is just ignorant. dooku one of the best with a lightsaber out of 10,000 compared to kyp out of like what how many jedi were around in the njo times? not nearly as many.

now nai

war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot. your theory with genetics and the force and how over time with natural selection the jedi would have better attunment to the force well with genetics look at it like this.

anikin we'll say half of his blood is the force and the other half is shmi's blood then him and padme have luke so 1/2 of anikin and 1/2 of padme make up look right? so that means that 1/4 of luke is the force blood 1/4 of luke is shmi's blood 1/4 of luke is padme's dad and 1/4 of luke his padmes mom. so naturally the force is diminished over time. unless they only reproduce with other force sensatives and then still it would weaken a little bit over time.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
k so glentract.

first off your points with kuns and kyp fighting doesnt matter. over time(4,000 years) the spirit and kuns powers more than likely deteriorated alot. and with luke being good as some of the knights of the pt ere as of ROTJ i have to disagree still it just doesnt make sense to me someone with like what 3 years maybe of training being better than somneone with i dunno 14 years is better? doubt it.

Yoda called him a Knight. He had passed the trials. He demonstrated better mastery of the force than many other Knights we have seen who have had more training. War Experience seems to be the key.

Look at it this way. All the Jedi who lived in times of war became powerful v ery quickly(Luke, Kyp, Corran, Nomi, ect.), while peacetime Jedi(with the exception of Jorus) took at minimum 13 years. Luke being a Jedi Knight after 3 years is not uncommon for WAR time Jedi.

And Exar being a weak spirit only contributes more to Kyp being powerful.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
the thing with me sayin i dont think luke concentraited much on lightsabercombat is just an opinion remeber i got nothin to prove it. kyp fough to the death more being none of them used the force though did they.

And I have proof that shows otherwise, so until someone gives superior proof otherwise, what I said is true.

Also, as was seen with the Mandalorians, people don't have to be force sensitive to be a threat to the Jedi. There were Dark Jedi and many of the Imperial Guards were force Adepts, but I can't say if Kyp ever killed one or not.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
i do think that anikin was better in AOTC then obi wan was in TPM only obiwan was more levelheaded. to say that dooku(being one of the greatest of his time) isnt a good duelist compared to kyp is just ignorant. dooku one of the best with a lightsaber out of 10,000 compared to kyp out of like what how many jedi were around in the njo times? not nearly as many.

Did you miss Obi-wan fighting Maul in that last part? Obi-wan matched Maul blade-for-blade, it was only when Maul force pushed Obi-wan that he was defeated(force powers always seem to get the better of him). Being level-headed is part of being a good fighter.

Also, NJO Jedi are on average better than the Old Order Jedi. This is because they were trained in times of war.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
now nai

war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot. your theory with genetics and the force and how over time with natural selection the jedi would have better attunment to the force well with genetics look at it like this.

anikin we'll say half of his blood is the force and the other half is shmi's blood then him and padme have luke so 1/2 of anikin and 1/2 of padme make up look right? so that means that 1/4 of luke is the force blood 1/4 of luke is shmi's blood 1/4 of luke is padme's dad and 1/4 of luke his padmes mom. so naturally the force is diminished over time. unless they only reproduce with other force sensatives and then still it would weaken a little bit over time.

You theory is wrong, blatantly speaking. Do children ever surpass their parents? Yes, they do.

Also, if your theory is true, then after 30 generations, the average Jedi would be like an atom next to a grape. We can see from Yoda to Sidious that this is not true.

Look up Malthus Principles and you will see why it being cut in half everytime simply cannot be true.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot.

How would war experience help a lot ?
For Jedi only two things matter in a fight: Their force powers and their lightsaber skills and both can't be effectively developed through fighting in a war. In a war you either win (and survive) or lose (die) except a situation where you fight a superior opponent and still survive because another person saves you (like Obi-Wan and Anakin surviving their fight with Dooku in AotC because Yoda joins them).

When you fight somebody you're using things you have learned so far and try to overwhelm him with that. If you can do it, your opponent is most likely weaker than you. Things that can be learned on a battlefield are mostly limited to skills that are not very useful in a duel like keeping an overview over a battle situation, tactics and (things that can be used in a duel) adapt to new situations or improvisation.

Just have a look at Luke for example. He has gone through three years of war in ESB times: He has a hard time force pulling his lightsaber and had a hard time surviving the Wampa. After a few weeks of training with Yoda he has developed FAR greater abilities than through 3 years of combat.
In ROTJ he has improved further but NOT because he has fought some bountyhunters and bandits - because he trained under Obi-Wans spirit (and using Obi-Wans notations) on Tatooine.

And after ROTJ look when he improved greatly: Not in actual combat. It was training from Joruus (Thrawn trilogy), Sidious (DE comics) and his experience in the Jedi Academy that resulted in his NJO powers and not the (relatively few) fights he had.

That's only logical. Where do you learn better: In a relatively peaceful enviroment or on a battlefield. And even if you had 1000 duels against 1000 different persons: Considering the fact that even an duel between two nearly equal opponents (Anakin and Obi-Wan) only lasted for 15 minutes you simply can't learn as much as you can in some sparring fight with a superior opponent.

Another example here would be Kar Vastor. He spend his entire life with fighting a war and still he can't overwhelm Mace Windu in terms of force powers or armed combat.

And to give an example from reality again: The most feared Katana swordfighters in ancient Japan where NOT people that did win many duels but a group of people practicing a fighting art called "ichi no tachi" (the only sword) which goal it was to kill an opponent with one hit. They didn't practice duels much but used training methods like placing serveral thousands of strikes on a trunk each day and jump manouvers. On the battlefield they simply ran at their opponents (some of the masters of that art were able to cross 5.5 metres with 3 steps) and used sheer power (kinetic energy from the approach and physical strength) to strike their opponent down with a single hit (sometimes cutting through the opponents blade).

What can we learn: Training matters and NOT war / fighting experience.

your theory with genetics and the force and how over time with natural selection the jedi would have better attunment to the force well with genetics look at it like this.

anikin we'll say half of his blood is the force and the other half is shmi's blood then him and padme have luke so 1/2 of anikin and 1/2 of padme make up look right? so that means that 1/4 of luke is the force blood 1/4 of luke is shmi's blood 1/4 of luke is padme's dad and 1/4 of luke his padmes mom. so naturally the force is diminished over time. unless they only reproduce with other force sensatives and then still it would weaken a little bit over time.

Sorry...but all those estimations are really ignoring reality and the things told in the SW universe.
Just some example (reality): My father is about 1.80 metres tall, my mother about 1.65 metres - using you logic I should be about 1.73 metres tall or at least I shouldn't be able to be taller than my father. In fact I'm about 1.90 metres tall.
Other examples (SW universe): Anakin Solo seems to have a greater force potential than Jacen and Jaina despite the fact that they all have the same parents.
Kyps potential is quite close to that of the Skywalker children and Luke himself - which would be impossible according to your logic.

k my theory is based on genetics. now you guys saying that according to my theory the force would die out. i'm not saying that at all. the force still chooses and can just end up being very strrong in some it's not like there were only 100 force sensatives and they populated the rest opf the galaxy with force users. you guys are just takeing what i'm saying and responding as if you have no other SW knowledge.

yoda calle dhim a knight ya after he confronted vader as in killing him he neverkilled him he redeemed him also i'm just stating that according to PT era luke would not have been a knight based off the training he had.

Grammar time.

ya sorry if my last post doesnt make anysense i'll re do it later i was in a hurry last night. and now i have to go to cheerleading practice. but later today i'll re poost

Sorry a response took to long, Nai.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Oh. This is a strange for you. Let's see how many 10,000 character postings I'll need to explain it...

To start a theory about force users we have to take a look at the force itself. So...how does it work ?

If force sensitivity is inherited (and most likely it is since Anakin’s children and grandchildren are all force sensitive and we have seen families that spawned serveral force users - and almost every child of a Jedi having some force potential - with Tigris being the only example in which this isn't the case) it must have to do something with the genes of a force user. Now if we consider that force sensitivity is genetically inherited we must assume that those genes that make people force sensitive come from somewhere since those things would simply "plop" up out of nowhere. Since Qui-Gon told us in TPM that every single being in the Galaxy has medi-chlorians in his blood we have to assume that every single being in the Galaxy has at least some force potential.

This is true, at least the potential part. Luke states in The Joinger King that everyone has Force Potential, which is life energy, but that doesn’t give the ability to tap into the force, which is what is called Force Sensitivity.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now if this is right so far it's most likely save to assume that those "genes" responsible for force potential would get stronger over time since (from an evolutionary point of view) having a better force potential (and thereby stuff like telekinesis, augmented strength and speed, better reflexes) would make you stronger and natural selection would favour those genes. As a proof we have entire species being able to use the force in order to survive (Miraluka seeing through the force, the Koruun using it to survive on Haruun Kal - abilities developed out of necessity)

Those societies were isolated though. Which, is what leads to evolution, doesn’t make me believe this unless it is explained more later. Many Force Sensitive species were wiped out along with the leaders of many Force Sensitive leaders in individual species, removing them from the evolutionary change. This is compounded by the fact that Jedi were not allowed to mary, removing their Force Potential from the chain as well.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Since civilisations outclassing the process of natural selection the question if people have a force attunement strong enough to become Jedi Knights is pretty much a question of luck. If there is a force user having children the chance of having a force potential high enough to become a Jedi Knight increases. But the average level of force potential would rise because being favoured by natural selection. The Sith for example developed that "natural selection" (the strongest shall survive in this case the strongest shall rule) only further and because of this it’s clear that the most powerful of them were around in the last generation of the ancient Sith species (Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow) where the people those development started with (Ajunta Pall) didn't seem to be very impressive.

We’ve only seem Ajunta as a weakened spirit. We have no idea of his true strength. We also don’t know that he was the very first Sith to rebel. He was the first of an individual group that rebelled, but that group wasn’t necessarily the very first group. Also, the chance of a Force User having a child with another Force User is not definite, reducing the probability of a Force Sensitive child.

Also, in nature, natural selection is true, but it often doesn’t apply in Civilized communities. Whenever a solider dies defending a civilian, natural selection was just broken. There are several cases of this in the Star Wars Universe too.

On Ruusan, Lord Hoth was more powerful than Darth Bane, but Bane survived while Hoth did not. Also, on Mustafar, Anakin was more powerful, but Obi-wan survived when Anakin(for all intents and purposes) died. When Kreia let herself die by the Exile’s hand, natural selection once again was broken. When Count Dooku was killed while Anakin lived, natural selection was broken. When Luke lived aboard the Death Star while Vader died, natural selection was broken. Sidious was killed by Anakin, who at this point in his life was actually the weaker of the two. There are so many times in Star Wars, or any civilised community for that matter, that natural selection doesn’t apply, that I don’t believe it can be applied here without any doubt.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now that process is the same for the normal Galaxy but not going on as fast as with the Sith (since they aided the process of natural selection with their society). So naturally the general level of force potential would be higher in the PT times than it was in ancient time even if only by a small amount.

Not true. The Force Pool would expand overtime, making the average person more force sensitive, but making the upper limit lower for any given person. As Civilization expanded, more and more groups of people were incorporated into this pool.

For example, Anakin’s children(Luke and Leia) have less force potential than him (or it at least appears so). A Force Sentive won’t always create a stronger child.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
But there are things contradicting that idea because the Sith and the Rakatan both grew weaker !

That is actually not right. For the Sith we know that their species (basically the Sith Empire) had reached it's highest point under the rule of Ragnos. The Sith (Nadd, Kun and so on) coming after them would naturally have a lesser force potential (since the Sith species aided the natural selection while other species didn't) or maybe the same force potential but they had less knowledge because their order was totally or nearly totally destroyed on multiple occasions (after the Great Hyperspace War, after the Great Sith War, the Jedi Civil War and the Battle of Ruusan) with most of their knowledge being lost (because either being destroyed / disappearing with individual force users, huge plundering actions – on Korriban, or the simple destruction of knowledge bases like Malachor V). For example the descendants of Freedon Nadd could have had more force potential than Nadd himself but they didn't even come close to have his knowledge.

First, we don’t know for certain that they peaked under Ragnos. All that we have is based on a gameplay experince. As you said about Nadd’s descendent’s, they may have had a greater Force Sensitivity, but they didn’t necessarily have more knowledge. It seems foolish to me to belive that The Sith were nearly wiped out three times in a thousand year time period, but never had the same thing happen in the twenty-one thousand years prior to that.

Next, the Jedi had the same things happen. They were almost purged from the Galaxy on multiple occasions (Great Sith War, Jedi Civil War, New Sith War, etc.).

Even if knowledge wasn’t lost, many force users were killed, reducing the pool of Force User’s that could reproduce and pass on their Sensitivity.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The Rakatan reached their peak when the constructed the Star Forge. From that point on they started to lose their ability to touch the force but not from generation to generation. It simply disappeared. And that's a phenomenon that is not unique to their race. Vima Da-Boda started losing her ability to use the force slowly after she had turned to the dark side and slew the person responsible for the death of her daughter in anger. So the loss of the ability to touch the force might result from overusing the dark side. That might be aided through two points: The Rakatan seem to have lost that ability nearly instantly (so their power didn't fade away in some generations) and they developed the ability to touch the force again or are close to it in KotoR times (this is getting obvious when you talk to the Rakatan scientist who examines that phenomenon and tells you "the One" is possibly close to be able to use the force).

Like this Sith, I haven’t seen anything to show that was the peak of their Force Capability. It seems more likely that this was the peak of their technology. In the Galatic Empire/Republic, this didn’t apply as Force Users were a non-factor, but the technology was at the peak of known time.

Also, why didn’t this happen to the Sith? They used the Darkside of the Force more than anyone, but never lost their connection.

Vima also seems to be a unique case, if she appiles at all to the Rakata. They lost their Force Sensitivity almost immediately, but she lost hers slowly.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
By the way Vima is an example for a PT Jedi having children who again became Jedi theirselves. Lucas himself stated that he never thought of the PT Jedi being celibate. I'm just mentioning this fact because of the following point: The PT Jedi Order was more centralised than the ancient one and they did train all people from infancy on. Thinking about that it might simply raise the chances for Jedi having children with other Jedi. Or think about the force potential generated on Coruscant with 1,000 generations of Jedi Knights "making love" with non-force-users on that planet and producing children.

That seems like it would be less effective actually. If a Force User and a non-Force User reproduce, then it is probable that either the child will be non-sensitive, or weaker than the parent to some degree or another. Also, if two Jedi did it, unless they had more than two children, they aren’t going to have much luck in increasing the Force Pool because those two Jedi will then die AND there is a chance that their children will not be able to create two more Jedi for several simple reasons.

1. They become a permanent virgin.
2. They are killed in combat.
3. They reproduce with a non-Force User and the child isn’t Force Sensitive.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
So...three things can be established as being facts:
a) Force potential is genetically inherited
b) General level of force potential is raising over time
c) The chance for a child being strong enough with the force is better if one or both of their parents was / were Jedi / Sith.

a)Seems to be pretty much true.
b)not true
c)true

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Force powers
While the ancient force user have shown us great examples of force use (lifting large objects, destroying planets) the abilities of the PT Jedi seem to be more refined and they actually have more of them. Lets have a look at it:

Lets see...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a)
They can survive prolonged exposure to lethal substances (seen when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon resisted the nerve gas in TPM) where Ulic Quel-Droma (considered one of the most powerful ancient Jedi) was forced to give into the dark side to survive being poisoned by Satal Keto.

You are falsely stating that all poisons are made equal. There are different types of poison. Remember that the Nemodians had never fought a Jedi before, so they were unsure as to how much poison they should put into the room. They obviously didn’t use a strong enough poison.

Bane was also poisoned by Kaan. This was a powerful poison created with the use of Sith Alchemy. It is more than likely that the same was true for Ulic when he was poisoned.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
b)
They can survive long falls (extensively shown by Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC, shown by Mace Windu in AotC and Shatterpoint, by Yoda in ROTS and by Obi-Wan in TPM) and violent physical shocks (grabbing on an airspeeder that flies by shown by Anakin in AotC) without being visibly affected.

This proves what exactly? I have seen no evidence that any former Jedi or Sith was limited to a lesser ability to do such things.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
c)
They can take a vast amounts of hits before being killed. You can see Jedi taking multiple hits by weapons that can destroy battledroids with a single hit in ROTS. And they can take hits from flamethrowers (Mace Windu AotC) as well as survive rockets and ship lasers fired at them (Obi-Wan vs Jango in AotC). If you consider that Anakin survived lying close to a stream of lava (and Anakin and Obi-Wan both can act in areas with very high temperatures) you might speculate that they can absorb some high amounts of heat using the force without visibly focusing. (Having a look at the Clone War cartoons Obi-Wan is able to block Durge's flame-thrower with his bare hands).

Once again, nothing is proved against former Sith and Jedi. The ability to absorb large amounts of enegy has been repeatedly demonstrated. Jedi in the Jedi Civil War were able to reflect blaster bolts with their hands, a FAR more concentrated form of enegy than a flame flower of lava.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
d)
They seem to have much more refined telekinetic abilities than the ancient Jedi. Anoon Bondara tells his Padawan Darsha Assent that it’s much more difficult to lift a single grain of sand than lifting a rock. Now we see Qui-Gon manipulating Watto's chance cube and all kinds of Jedi disabling droids through the force (what seemed like a force push in the movies – the TPM novel states that they disable the droids by destroying circuits and they are able to do this quite effortless - which would be more fitting since the droids aren't damaged from the outside but never get up again "force pushed" once). That leads to the conclusion that their telekinetic powers are more refined than the ones of the ancient Jedi.
Considering the Clone War cartoons they can use telekinetic abilities to greater means (Mace destroying the droids on Dantooine, Yoda tear down the top of a mountain to destroy the droids attacking him on Ilum / lifting those heavy rocks that crashed on Luminara and Bariss Offee – while both of them where able to protect themselves from getting crushed).

Saying that moving a grain is harder than a rock is not literal. And disabling droids, well we see Jedi in the Jedi Civil War doing this all the time. Also, if you do chose to take the Clone Wars Cartoons literally(which is completely illogical), the feats that those Jedi did are NOTHING compared to ripping the Core out of a Star. Nothing at all.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
e)
Greater force sense. Especially shown by Yoda when he senses the death of the Jedi instantly over thousands of lightyears also shown by Obi-Wan in ANH when he senses the destruction of Alderaan. Same amounts of lives lost and Jedi killed didn't seem to have much effect on the Jedi in the ancient times (destruction of Malachor, destroying sunsystems and planets by the Sith - normally at least Bastilla should have had some terrible had ache when she, Carth and Revan did escape from Taris while the Sith were glassing the planet). Yoda and Mace where also able to sense Anakin slaying the Tusken Raiders in AotC (so they can sense strong emotions by a single Jedi across the half Galaxy) and Yoda was able to sense the intentions of the Clone Troopers who wanted to kill him.
Compare that to the average Jedi in KotoR times who got killed in huge amount of numbers by "normal" people assassinating them where Obi-Wan is able to sense coming attacks from his "backside" (seen in AotC against the female headhunter).

You’ve shown that the Jedi are capable in sensing the Force, but you haven’t shown that the Sith aren’t just as powerful in that area. Their overall capability is higher, I see no reason for Force Sense to be lower.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
f)
Greater abilities of physical enchantments through the force. That includes force speed (used by Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon in TPM), augmented strength (Yoda in AotC seems to be physically stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together in ROTS considering the fact that Dooku could parry them both at once with a single hand where Yoda broke a saberlock with him while he used both hands) and acrobatic movements (Yoda, Maul).

See above. In pretty much all of this, you haven’t shown that the former Sith and Jedi were weaker.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
g)
Greater abilities when it comes to blaster deflection and redirection. We saw Yoda in ROTS deflecting fire from 6 clone troopers simultaneously (same can be seen from nearly all people in the CW cartoons). Redirection of blaster fire is used on multiple occasions by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM, by several Jedi on Geonosis (you can see Mace deflecting 6 blaster bolts from different directions in about a second of time) and by Zett Jucassa and Ki-Adi-Mundi in ROTS. Most impressive example of that technique seems to be Depa Billaba deflecting fire from two different directions using two lightsabers and redirecting seven blaster bolts into a single hole on a moving target.
Vader in ESB (as well as Obi-Wan in the CW cartoons) is deflecting a blaster shot with his hand.
That are things ancient Jedi could only dream off.

See above. In pretty much all of this, you haven’t shown that the former Sith and Jedi were weaker.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
h)
Greater abilities of mind-affection. We can see Darsha Assent (a Padawan) affecting the minds of an entire gang of bandits in Shadowhunter and this ability is also used by Obi-Wan (AotC and TPM) to control or distract people.
Andur Sunrider either wasn't able to do something like that or he didn't even think about it when getting attacked by some normal bandits.

See above. In pretty much all of this, you haven’t shown that the former Sith and Jedi were weaker.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And now we reach the first big mistake - the legend of the Jedi losing knowledge and material.
We know that the PT Jedi had knowledge dating back to the ancient times since Bodo Baas (who died during the Jedi Purge) had a holocron that was passed on through generations of Jedi Knights from Vodo Siosk-Baas time on and later was one of the main sources for Luke Skywalker to learn from.

You are WRONG on this. They are two different holocrons. One was made by Vodo Baas, a DIFFERENT holocron was made by Bodo Baas. There are two holocrons, the Essential Guide to Charaters says so.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Going by Yaddle's EU profile of starwars.com the Jedi temple had an "impressive collection of holocrons, scrolls and tomes." And if you have a look at the information about the Jedi Temple given on starwars.com you can see the following points:

Impressive by PT Jedi standards perhaps.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
- the Jedi temple is an ancient building and seeing that it still contains the same rooms as in KotoR times it's very unlikely that it was destroyed.

Chances of all knowledge being stored in there is even lower.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
- the middle tower of the five temple towers "was the most sacred section of the building. Inside were housed the original manuscripts of the founding Jedi." So...they have 25,000 year old manuscripts lying around there and notice that this middle tower being kilometer-meter high was filled with knowledge. So they have quite some stuff in there.

The original manuscripts, not all manuscripts from all time. You have simply misunderstood what it was saying.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
- some people were speculating the temple was destroyed since the Council Room in KotoR 2 appears to be different from the one we have seen in the PT. Basically each of the outer towers had its own Council Room since the Jedi had 4 different Councils: The High Council, the Council of First Knowledge, the Council of Reconciliation, and the Reassignment Council and each of them had its own Council Room. So the Council the Exile had faced in KotoR 2 must not be the High Council.

This doesn’t make any sense. Vrook was the strongest Jedi alive at that time. If he was a weaker Jedi, then it is probable that Revan wasn’t considered powerful enough to be of concern to the strongest Jedi in the Order. Since we know Revan was very powerful, this bolsters the strength of the strongest in the Order to some unknown, far beyond Yoda. The more likely explanation in it’s another of the common KOTOR inconsistencies.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Feats and abilities
First of all the Jedi in PT times seem to be respected or feared more than the Jedi in ancient times. While we have examples of ancient Jedi simply being murdered or attacked by quite "normal" people (bandits) all people in the PT movies confronted with Jedi immediately panic. The Neimodians in TPM panic when being confronted with TWO Jedi despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on their ship to stop them. Same can be seen in the Geonosian arena in AOTC where the entire audience seems to panic and immediately flee when the Jedi in the arena ignite their lightsabers.

This would be because of the reputation that the Jedi of Old built for them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Just compare the following situations: Andur Sunrider was killed by normal bandits. Mace Windu just had to put his hand on a lightsaber to scare 14 bandits away. Darsha Assent being a Padawan was enough to make an entire street gang flee from her.

These are also bandits who live in a time of peace, not ones who have been fighting their entire life and trained to kill Jedi. None of the people alive that ran from PT Jedi were trained to kill Jedi, thugs of the past were.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And the Jedi in PT times can't get killed by "non-force-users" except in situations were they are horribly outnumbered or overwhelmed with heavy weapons. We see that Jango Fett (called the "deadliest man in the Galaxy" by Mace in Shatterpoint) wasn't able to kill Obi-Wan despite the fact that Boba gave him some assistance and later Mace simply killed him in a direct confrontation.

There were many Jedi killed by Clone Troopers and Mandalorians. They also weren’t “horribly outnumbered”, there were maybe five Clones to kill a COUNCIL MEMBER at point blank, the range at which a melee weapon would be most effective.

Also, you are forgetting all the Jedi that were killed by GG and Durge, which was a very large number.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Both ideas are supported by Lucas himself in the commentary of TPM. When Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fight through the Trade Federation ship at the beginning of the film Lucas tells us that he wanted the Jedi to be "invincible" and "unstoppable" and they should be recognized like this by the other people appearing in the films. In fact we never saw a Jedi dying to a non-force-user in a "fair" fight except Jango killing Coleman Trebor (this might only have happened because Trebor seemed to focus 100 % on Dooku). The kills archived by other "non-force-users" seem to come from situations of outnumbering (AotC, ROTS), overwhelming Jedi with firepower (AotC. ROTS) or "surprising them" (GG during the Clone Wars).

WRONG. You are dropping details that go against you. He never says that the former Jedi weren’t invincible too. You also are forgetting to mention GG and Durge. Actually, I think you may purposely be not mentioning them in support of your case.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Also the Jedi seem to have developed some very high infiltration ability since they were able to enter the Area on Geonosis with 200 people without Dooku or the Geonosians having sensed them. The fight on Geonosis did show two things to us:

a) The Jedi are very good in terms of individual skills
b) They are bad when it comes to teamwork.

Just as easily as Exar walked the halls of Ossus. Also, Jedi are not very good in individual skill. Coleman was ripped apart. That individual skill didn’t do them much good against the Clones.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The entire fight they seem to rely on their individual skills (and considering how many of them survived there must be some very skilled individuals) while not developing any form of teamwork. I think some change had occurred between ancient times and the PT times. In ancient times all "great" actions of force use (on the Jedi’s side) where done by teams. They send hundreds or thousands of individuals to stop Kun or Nadd (In case of defeating Kun they joined their forces to exterminate the entire life on Yavin 4). Some of them joined forces to capture Ulic ("Shield of light"😉. The only individual action of a single ancient Jedi not reproduced by a single PT force user was cutting somebodies connection to the force. This was done to Ulic by Nomi Sunrider but notice that Ulic was not focusing on his defences but instead was shocked because having killed his own brothers.

How is relying on individual skills helpful? There were also other force techniques, but I’ve been typing this for a long time and I’m getting lazy.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
In the PT groups of force users seem to fail where individuals can prevail. We saw that 5 Jedi can't defeat Grievous where Mace and Obi-Wan both defeated him in 1vs1 situations. Also Obi-Wan seems to fight much better on his own than teamed up with somebody else (e.g. Anakin). It seems that the PT Jedi have developed greater individual skills but sacrificed most of their abilities to work as teams compared to the ancient time Jedi.
So in terms of versus threads: PT Jedi would maybe be better in "1vs1" or "1vsX" situations where ancient time Jedi might be better in "XvsX" situations.

You are comparing 5 run of the mill Jedi to two of the three best. Not a very sound argument.

And just compare them in (quite) similar fights. Let's have a look on the Battle of Deneba in ancient times. You have several thousands of Jedi vs several thousands of Krath War Droids (some Grievous like things with 4 arms carrying 2 meleeweapons and a bow like blaster or blaster rifles) and the Jedi pretty much got slaughtered and even powerful ones (such as Arca Jeth) died. [/B][/QUOTE]

You have wrong information. The Battle of Deneba was largely unsuccessful for the Krath. Few Jedi were killed even when they were outnumbered.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now have a look at the Battle of Geonosis (the arena fight). Same situation: 200 Jedi vs thousands droids. Now the droids are equipped with weapons that fire quite fast (normal battle droids 3 bolts per second, Super Battle Droids around 6 bolts and the Droidekas fireing 4 weapons at once with 8 or 12 bolts per second) and some of them even have shields (Droidekas) - and they are aided by Geonosians with some heavy weapons.
Now if you have a look at the "background" action in the arena scenes you can see some Jedi getting outnumbered 5+ on 1 (being surrounded) and still winning quite easily against their opponents. In the entire Battle of Geonosis 192,000 clone troopers and 212 Jedi annihilated more than 1,1 mio Battle Droids.
Still thinking that the PT Jedi are weaker than the ancient ones...ok...next point incoming.

This point is CRAP. Two hundred PT Jedi were reduced to thirteen in mere minutes against opponents who fired at a rate FAR less than you stated. Lying. Is that what it’s come to?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Lightsaber fighting
Well...who would be better in terms of lightsaber combat ?
As far as we have seen the PT Jedi are at least better than the ancient ones when it comes to blaster deflection and redirection.

No we haven’t. You modified information in your favor.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now let us just have a look on training. The PT Jedi (post Ruusan) are trained from infancy on with lightsabers were the greatest people of ancient times weren't trained from infancy on. Who would be better in terms of fighting ? Somebody who did practice some years with a weapon and used it in some battles or somebody who trained with that weapon for decades and grew up using it ? I guess the latter one when you consider the fact that the styles didn’t change from KotoR times to PT times on.

You guess wrong. The PT Jedi fought with their sabers against powerful opponents FAR less than the Jedi of Old. Fighting someone in a real right will do more than hundreds of hours of training.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
To add to that point of view. The ancient Jedi practice the very same forms that the PT Jedi do while those forms were refined for more than 4,000 years. I have never seen a example of martial art / fighting style getting worse over time. For natural talents with lightsaber combat we can have a look at Mace Windu: Juyo remained an unfinished art for nearly 4,000 of years until Mace completed it with Vaapad. So...if the ancient Jedi (pre Ruusan) were better than the PT ones why did nobody ever complete Juyo ?

They have not been refined infact. The skill they were wielded with decreased. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, because it did. Are modern sword fighters anything near Medieval ones? No, they aren’t because they don’t fight wars with them. They also didn’t finish it because it was unnecessary. Their other forms worled fine for them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now people often think that the ancient Jedi had more battle experience and more training against other force users (Sith) than the PT ones. Again wrong. For all we know the Jedi in ancient times nearly had no major conflicts that did go on for several years. The Great Hyperspace War was over in less than one year (and we haven't seen lightsaber action there), same with the Great Sith War.

The Jedi Civil War lasted two years. The Mandalorian Wars lasted several years. The Hundred Year Darkness lasted one hundred years. The New Sith War lasted a thousand years. Is this really less than the Clone Wars, which, I may add, was NOT fought against beings who could destroy stars.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The Jedi didn't participate in the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War (as it's descriped in KotoR 2) more seems like Jedi getting assassinated by Sith assassins / special forces or they tried to convert them. I don't remember a single situation where somebody was talking about a real battle between Jedi and Sith happening in the Jedi Civil War.

Revan vs. Malak. All the cut scenes aboard the Star Forge. Bastila and her Jedi fighting their way to Revan. You are purposely overlooking facts at this point.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now the PT Jedi did practice against each other (so against other force users) and they did that quite often. The ROTS novel states that Anakin and Obi-Wan did practice lightsaber combat against each other for more than 1,000 hours. We also know that Padawans did fight each other (Shadowhunter) and that even Masters used to spare against each other (Dooku and Yoda did fight Mace before the events of TPM). If that amount of practice time that Obi-Wan and Anakin had is "normal" then some Masters must have 10,000s of hours experience in lightsaber vs lightsaber fights. How would ancient Jedi be able to compare to that ?

It’s not normal for a Jedi to have 1000 hours of experince. If it was, then why would it be notable for Obi-wan and Anakin to have achieved that? And regardless, sparring is FAR less effective than a real fight.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now let's just have a look at the next prejudice or way of thinking. Illustrious has written that there was a "gradual change from front-line soldiers to diplomatic Jedi throughout the ages" which is simply wrong. The Jedi always were diplomats and peacekeepers - the entire order is designed to keep harmony within the Galaxy which doesn't pretty much fit the picture of an army just designed for fighting. Or are we back in the Roman Empire here and the Jedi Order is commanded by Julius Caesar ("in civis pace para bellum" - "if you want peace you have to prepare for war"😉 ? That does simply not fit the rules and philosophy of the Jedi Order and those - as far as we know - were installed 5,000+ years BBY thereby counting for all ancient Jedi.

The Jedi were peacekeepers back when they had a warrior branch? Hardly.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And now for the great "BUT..."

But Yoda – being the strongest of the PT Jedi – couldn't defeat Sidious – the worst of all Sith Lords

True. But let's simply have a look at some facts:

a)
All ancient Sith Lords had technology or some special things to aid their force powers. Sadow had his ship which allowed him to destroy planets and some crystals that boosted his force powers. Same things were later used by Kun (+ Aleema + Ulic). They had amulets, artifacts and so on. Sidious equipped with the same stuff actually is pretty close to the Ancient Sith Lords (have a look at Sidious in Dark Empire having one crystal to boost his force powers). So Sidious might be as strong or even stronger then the ancient Sith Lords in terms of raw power but inferior when it comes to Sith knowledge (especially Alchemy) and things to boost his force powers.

It only goes to show their power that they made these. Sidious is never shown as having made a SIth Amulet and it is known that he visited Korriban at least once. Also, Sith Alchemist were extremely powerful. Thankyou for bolstering my argument.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
b)
The ROTS novel states that the reason Yoda can't defeat Sidious was that the Sith had changed while the Jedi didn't. In ancient times it was a fight where the light did overcome the darkness. Now in the ROTS novel it is said that the more light you use against the new Sith the deeper their shadow gets. They can't be overwhelmed using the light against them. If we consider the fact that the only weapon the Jedi knew against the Sith was the light, the PT Jedi had less chances against Sidious than the ancient Jedi had against ancient Sith. Now...if you think about this that can lead to some ideas about the PT and the OT:

The ROTS novel is basically uncannon because of how many times in contradicts the movies.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
1)
It can explain why Mace did defeat Sidious after less than a minute of fighting where Yoda wasn't able to do that. It's because of Vaapad. To quote the ROTS novel: "Immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side." So Mace was using the darkness (or let's say some feelings associated with the "Dark Side"😉 against Sidious and won where Yoda, using the light wasn't able to do so.

Although the statment is true, this doesn’t show PT Jedi are more powerful.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
2)
Now think about that: Why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda train Luke and Leia from their childhood on ? I think Yoda noticed that the new Sith can only be defeated by somebody that are not like Jedi (pure servants of the light - and have a look at the NJO they aren't "Jedi" any longer) but people that can utilise their "darker feelings" but remain in control over themselves (not fall to the Dark Side). And just have a look how the new Sith (Sidious and Vader) were defeated in the end. Luke had to use his anger to overcome Vader in ROTJ and Vader this finally resulted in Vader killing the Emperor.
Could Luke have "defeated" them being a "regular" Jedi ? Could he have done something with 2 decades of training what Yoda wasn't able to do after 9 centuries if Yoda would have trained the same way all the PT Jedi were trained ? I doubt it.
He would have killed Vader (just because of the necessity) and then the Emperor would have killed him. So leaving Luke "untrained" enough to keep his feelings in higher regard than the (estimated) necessity of his actions was possibly the only way to "win" in the end.

Now...thinking about that points the PT Jedi might have better chances against the ancient Sith Lords than some people give them credit for because they are trained to fight Sith like that and have more training time and more refined abilities than the ancient Jedi.

Not true. That would make the Dark STRONGER than the Light, which goes against what Star Wars is. That doesn’t make any sense.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Especially Yoda would be a real threat for the ancient Sith Lords and not because I'm a Yoda fanboy but because his unique abilities.

We already know that he can absorb and deflect Sith Lightning from point blank range but he has another ability called “Force Light”. Yoda once used that on Dagobah and the effect is that it removes Dark Side manifestations from a nexus point. That means Yoda would be able to effectively destroy any artifact created with Sith magic by removing the Dark Side "component".
Now try to imagine Sith Lords without their force power boosting artifacts trying to fight somebody armed with lightsaber while wielding normal blades (Sith blades that no longer have Sith magic applied on them). Do you think they can win ?

Can you prove that this effect will work on a Sith Amulet or that Yoda will not be overwhlemed as soon as he enters combat? I didn’t think so.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And to throw a last point in here: Lucas himself called the PT era the Golden Age of the Jedi. It's their highest point. Now notice that most of the EU stuff about the ancient Jedi was approved (and sometimes even used) by Lucas before he released the PT and still Lucas calls the PT era the "Golden Age of the Jedi". Since this is Lucas own point of view this might also explain why the Clone War cartoons look exaggerated: Lucas wanted to show the Jedi's "real powers" – something which he couldn't have done in the films and he personally approved episodes which the director thought of being not acceptable (like Mace wasting the droids and the seismic tank on Dantooine).

Lucas contradicts himself all the time. The Movies are canon ABOVE Lucas. The movies are the ULTIMATE level of canon. It doesn’t matter what Lucas says on that.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
So if you consider all the points mentioned and consider the Clone War Cartoons as what they are (a piece of Lucas approved EU material) and have a look on Lucas own statement about the PT era (being the Golden Age of the Jedi) - would you still say that the ancient Jedi are superior to the PT Jedi ?

Yes, I would. The movies are canon above Lucas. They show the Jedi as weaker than Ancient Jedi. The Cartoons are a non-factor as is Lucas’ statement.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
If yes than I hope that I was persistand enough for you Janus. And I hope I humored you greatly, Illustrious.

Nai over.

While your post was quite intresting, you overlooked many facts in your favor, as I'm sure I did too(hey, I mean we're not perfect).

hold up you guys can keep oin at it and all but no ones has mentioned kyp or dooku in awhile? so who'd win. i still say dooku but not easily kyp would put up a good fight.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Those societies were isolated though. Which, is what leads to evolution, doesn’t make me believe this unless it is explained more later. Many Force Sensitive species were wiped out along with the leaders of many Force Sensitive leaders in individual species, removing them from the evolutionary change. This is compounded by the fact that Jedi were not allowed to mary, removing their Force Potential from the chain as well.

Many force sensitive species were wiped out ? Where ? And Lucas himself stated that he never thought of Jedi being celibate so they CAN have children without marrying (In case you didn't know that is possible 😛)

First, we don’t know for certain that they peaked under Ragnos. All that we have is based on a gameplay experince. As you said about Nadd’s descendent’s, they may have had a greater Force Sensitivity, but they didn’t necessarily have more knowledge. It seems foolish to me to belive that The Sith were nearly wiped out three times in a thousand year time period, but never had the same thing happen in the twenty-one thousand years prior to that.

We do know that the Sith Empire peaked under Ragnos since Anderson called it the "Golden Age of the Sith Empire". They had the most powerful force users the biggest expansion the Sith Empire ever reached and so on.
And they never had the same thing happen in 21,000 years because the Sith Empire was isolated from the rest of the known Galaxy until it was discovered (the events that led to the Great Hyperspace War).

The Sith Empire was extinct at least in times of Exar Kun since Ragnos wouldn't have given him the title of the Dark Lord otherwise. So effecitively the Sith Order was destroyed in the Hyperspace war, rebuilt by Kun and again destroyed, rebuilt under Revan and again destroyed and last time rebuilt at 2,000 BBY by a Rogue Jedi and again destroyed at the battle of Ruusan.

Next, the Jedi had the same things happen. They were almost purged from the Galaxy on multiple occasions (Great Sith War, Jedi Civil War, New Sith War, etc.).

That is wrong. At the end of the Great Sith War there were hundrets or even thousands of Jedi left that finally defeated Kun. After the Jedi Civil War there were still enough Jedi left to get killed by Nihilus when Katarr was destroyed and an unknown amount of Jedi even survived the purge following.

Even if knowledge wasn’t lost, many force users were killed, reducing the pool of Force User’s that could reproduce and pass on their Sensitivity.

It's reducing the pool for TRAINED INDIVIDUALS which is different from the pool of force sensitives. For all we know the PT Jedi order had more Jedi than the Ancient order.

Like this Sith, I haven’t seen anything to show that was the peak of their Force Capability. It seems more likely that this was the peak of their technology. In the Galatic Empire/Republic, this didn’t apply as Force Users were a non-factor, but the technology was at the peak of known time.

Also, why didn’t this happen to the Sith? They used the Darkside of the Force more than anyone, but never lost their connection.

Vima also seems to be a unique case, if she appiles at all to the Rakata. They lost their Force Sensitivity almost immediately, but she lost hers slowly.

I don't know why the lost of force using capability didn't effect the Sith. Perhabs is a philosophical issue where the subconsiousness of a force user didn't allow him to use the force any longer because of realizing the evil he unleashes and don't allow to reproduce it. The Sith wouldn't care much about that. On the same level the Exile had to cut off his connection to the force to survive Malachor V where the "more evil" individuals didn't have to.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That seems like it would be less effective actually. If a Force User and a non-Force User reproduce, then it is probable that either the child will be non-sensitive, or weaker than the parent to some degree or another. Also, if two Jedi did it, unless they had more than two children, they aren’t going to have much luck in increasing the Force Pool because those two Jedi will then die AND there is a chance that their children will not be able to create two more Jedi for several simple reasons.

1. They become a permanent virgin.
2. They are killed in combat.
3. They reproduce with a non-Force User and the child isn’t Force Sensitive.

First the force potential of a child can be greater than the force potential of the parents. See Kyp Durron, see Anakin Solo and so on. And for that "reasons".

1. Become a permanent virgin contradicts Lucas idea about the Jedi so not very useful.
2. Being killed in combat during times of relative peace doesn't seem to be very likely.
3. Reproduce with a non-Force User will still most likely result in a force sensitive child, see Han and Leia.

You are falsely stating that all poisons are made equal. There are different types of poison. Remember that the Nemodians had never fought a Jedi before, so they were unsure as to how much poison they should put into the room. They obviously didn’t use a strong enough poison.

First off the poison the Nemodians used was lethal ("They must be dead by now..."😉 and they would make sure the Jedi are dead since they fear them so much (so they must have kept them in that room for quite some time). Still the Jedi have survived it.
And Ulic had that poison in his blood for hours - seems not very lethal for me.

This proves what exactly? I have seen no evidence that any former Jedi or Sith was limited to a lesser ability to do such things.

Have a look at what force push does to the KotoR time Jedi / Sith. They can be effectively killed with that.

Once again, nothing is proved against former Sith and Jedi. The ability to absorb large amounts of enegy has been repeatedly demonstrated. Jedi in the Jedi Civil War were able to reflect blaster bolts with their hands, a FAR more concentrated form of enegy than a flame flower of lava.

Where did you see Jedi in the JCW reflect blaster bolts with their hands ?

Saying that moving a grain is harder than a rock is not literal. And disabling droids, well we see Jedi in the Jedi Civil War doing this all the time. Also, if you do chose to take the Clone Wars Cartoons literally(which is completely illogical), the feats that those Jedi did are NOTHING compared to ripping the Core out of a Star. Nothing at all.

Moving a grain requires more focus than moving a rock which is logical. Where have we seen Jedi in the JCW disabling droids ? Where has a Jedi ever ripped the core of a star out something that even the strongest Sith needed technology for (chrystals to aid their force powers, a ship focussing their force energy) ?

See above. In pretty much all of this, you haven’t shown that the former Sith and Jedi were weaker.

For all three ocassions you used that statement: Ancient Jedi haven't shown this kind of abilities when in need of such abilities badly which would lead to the conclusion that they simply didn't have those abilities. So I've exactly proven that the former Sith and Jedi weren't able to do such things which would make them weaker.

You are WRONG on this. They are two different holocrons. One was made by Vodo Baas, a DIFFERENT holocron was made by Bodo Baas. There are two holocrons, the Essential Guide to Charaters says so.

Have a look at the goddamn Jedi Academy trilogy by Anderson. The same Holocron that tells the students how Yoda became a Jedi told Luke about Exar Kun later (Vodo Baas talking). It the SAME HOLOCRON. Get it.

Chances of all knowledge being stored in there is even lower.

Yes. Considering the fact that they had no other place to store knowledge from 25,000 - 5,000 BBY (founding of the library on Ossus) and from about 4,000 BBY to the times of the Great purge (from the destruction of Dantooine on) doesn't really matter, right ?

This doesn’t make any sense. Vrook was the strongest Jedi alive at that time. If he was a weaker Jedi, then it is probable that Revan wasn’t considered powerful enough to be of concern to the strongest Jedi in the Order. Since we know Revan was very powerful, this bolsters the strength of the strongest in the Order to some unknown, far beyond Yoda. The more likely explanation in it’s another of the common KOTOR inconsistencies.

I was simply arguing that they were in a different room and there is nothing saying that a Jedi can be a member of different councils.

his would be because of the reputation that the Jedi of Old built for them.

Ah...again great: The reputation of the Jedi built between 25,000 and 5,000 BBY is worth nothing but everyone fears the PT Jedi because of the reputation some people before them have built up. They even fear INDIVIDUAL Jedi like Mace Windu because of the reputation of others ? Hardly...

These are also bandits who live in a time of peace, not ones who have been fighting their entire life and trained to kill Jedi. None of the people alive that ran from PT Jedi were trained to kill Jedi, thugs of the past were.

Oh great. Every idiot bandit on every ass backward planet in the galaxy was trained to kill Jedi in ancient times. Sure...

Just as easily as Exar walked the halls of Ossus. Also, Jedi are not very good in individual skill. Coleman was ripped apart. That individual skill didn’t do them much good against the Clones.

Exar using a Sith amulet...yes...totally compareable to Jedi who didn't use ancient Sith artifacts...
Coleman focusing on Dooku and getting killed by somebody Mace called the "deadliest man alive" - totally unusual of course. I guess Nomi Sunrider would have survived Mandalore shooting at her while focusing on Ulic (which would be a similar situation).

You have wrong information. The Battle of Deneba was largely unsuccessful for the Krath. Few Jedi were killed even when they were outnumbered.

Rofl. Sorry...they killed some of the most powerful Jedi of the time (like Arca Jeth) and you want to tell me that the weaker people survived because of...beeing weaker ? Very nice...

This point is CRAP. Two hundred PT Jedi were reduced to thirteen in mere minutes against opponents who fired at a rate FAR less than you stated. Lying. Is that what it’s come to?

First off there weren't 200 Jedi in the arena but nevermind. 200 Jedi participated in the battle of Geonosis which included a space battle too. And still there are 20 Jedi standing at the end of the fight - not thirteen.
Mere minutes considering the fact that the things SHOWN are 7 minutes long...ok.
And the firerates can be seen in the movies so better watch them again before calling me a liar.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No we haven’t. You modified information in your favor.

No. You simply ignored the information given in the sources which is not my fault - nor is it my problem.

You guess wrong. The PT Jedi fought with their sabers against powerful opponents FAR less than the Jedi of Old. Fighting someone in a real right will do more than hundreds of hours of training.

Against what powerful opponents ? Sith ? How many people have fought Ulic or Exar in a lightsaber duel ? How many people have fought Nadd and survived it. Hell...even the Army of Light only some individuals (like Hoth) have fought more than a single "powerful opponent". It's not that their are nests of them somewhere.

And if you practice any form of martial arts you would know that practice > real fighting.

They have not been refined infact. The skill they were wielded with decreased. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, because it did. Are modern sword fighters anything near Medieval ones? No, they aren’t because they don’t fight wars with them. They also didn’t finish it because it was unnecessary. Their other forms worled fine for them.

That is a again a total irreal argument constructed. Did medieval swordfighters practice outside of real fights ? Sure they did. Now did they get better because of the practice or because of the fights, huh ?

There is a reason why most of medieval swordmasters were nobles - they had the time to practice with that weapons were "normal" people didn't. Did you ever notice that the best duellists grew up in "peaceful" times ? I guess you didn't.

The Jedi Civil War lasted two years. The Mandalorian Wars lasted several years. The Hundred Year Darkness lasted one hundred years. The New Sith War lasted a thousand years. Is this really less than the Clone Wars, which, I may add, was NOT fought against beings who could destroy stars.

No war was fought against being who could destroy stars because no force user ever did destroy a star with his raw force power. How often do I have to explain that ?
And did we ever see armies of force users colliding. No. Why not ? Because it just never happened because their weren't enough force users to form an army. Hell...

Revan vs. Malak. All the cut scenes aboard the Star Forge. Bastila and her Jedi fighting their way to Revan. You are purposely overlooking facts at this point.

You call 3vs3 or 5vs5 or even a 1vs1 a "battle" meaning "a fight in dimension of armies" ? Nice...

It’s not normal for a Jedi to have 1000 hours of experince. If it was, then why would it be notable for Obi-wan and Anakin to have achieved that? And regardless, sparring is FAR less effective than a real fight.

The ROTS novel simply states this as a fact and doesn't say that it was anything special. And again a real fight is less effective than sparring in terms of refining your own abilities.

The Jedi were peacekeepers back when they had a warrior branch? Hardly.

The Jedi were peacekeepers. It's a goddamn fact. Arca Jeth sent his team to Onderon to find a "diplomatic solution" for the conflict - instead of this the result was a war and guess what: Arca told his students that they have FAILED.

It only goes to show their power that they made these. Sidious is never shown as having made a SIth Amulet and it is known that he visited Korriban at least once. Also, Sith Alchemist were extremely powerful. Thankyou for bolstering my argument.

Yes. Sidious had never made a Sith Amulet. Sure. He had visited Korriban after it was plundered by god knows how many Sith (Nadd, Kun, Revan, Malak, Nihilus, Sion the entirety of the Sith Academy located there). What should he have found ?

The ROTS novel is basically uncannon because of how many times in contradicts the movies.

OK. The entirety of the EU is uncannon because of contradicting the movies. 13 years of training to become a Jedi knight are impressive thereby none of the famous ancient Jedi Knights would have ever reached that title meaning people like Ulic and Exar were Padawan's joining the Dark Side. And this will result in the PT Sith / Jedi > Exar and Ulic. Whoopie.

Although the statment is true, this doesn’t show PT Jedi are more powerful.

Because it wasn't designed to show that ?

Not true. That would make the Dark STRONGER than the Light, which goes against what Star Wars is. That doesn’t make any sense.

No. Missinterpretation on your side. I said that the PT Sith can't be seen as products of Dark Side only because they adapted "Jedi" methods (e.g. diplomacy instead of violence) and thereby Jedi methods only aren't enough to overcome them. And in short terms the Dark Side is stronger than Light Side. It's the fast way. That's the only reason why Sidious could hope to survive Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Can you prove that this effect will work on a Sith Amulet or that Yoda will not be overwhlemed as soon as he enters combat? I didn’t think so.

The effect simply removes the Dark Side component of any dark side focus point so it will work on Sith Amulets.

Lucas contradicts himself all the time. The Movies are canon ABOVE Lucas. The movies are the ULTIMATE level of canon. It doesn’t matter what Lucas says on that.

No. In fact Lucas is the ultimate level of canon and not the movies. Not that this would matter since the ancient Jedi never shown feats above the PT Jedi. Ever seen somebody in the comics deflecting six blaster bolts from six different direction in under a second in the comics - Mace Windu does that in AotC during the Battle of Geonosis.
Ever seen people using force speed in the comics ? Ever seen people lifting some hundret tons of metal ? No ?

Yes, I would. The movies are canon above Lucas. They show the Jedi as weaker than Ancient Jedi. The Cartoons are a non-factor as is Lucas’ statement.

Give me something that shows the ancient Jedi are stronger than the PT Jedi. According to all logic and to anything I have seen in the TOTJ comics they simply aren't.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Many force sensitive species were wiped out ? Where ? And Lucas himself stated that he never thought of Jedi being celibate so they CAN have children without marrying (In case you didn't know that is possible 😛)

The Miraluka were destroyed, but wiped out was a misstatement, I meant that there were many Force Users in different species that were wiped out, removing them from being able to pass on their force Capability. Also, please show some instances between Ruusan and Mustafar that this happened beside with Ki-Adi Mundi since he was considered a special case.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
We do know that the Sith Empire peaked under Ragnos since Anderson called it the "Golden Age of the Sith Empire". They had the most powerful force users the biggest expansion the Sith Empire ever reached and so on.
And they never had the same thing happen in 21,000 years because the Sith Empire was isolated from the rest of the known Galaxy until it was discovered (the events that led to the Great Hyperspace War).

Golden Age as in most advanced. It could have been the peak of their technology and riches, but it wasn’t necessarily the peak of their Force Powers.
Just because they Republic never fought them doesn’t mean that they didn’t have Civil Wars that wiped out huge portions of the Empire, and, as I have already shown, there are many instances in Civilized communities that Natural Selection doesn’t apply.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The Sith Empire was extinct at least in times of Exar Kun since Ragnos wouldn't have given him the title of the Dark Lord otherwise. So effecitively the Sith Order was destroyed in the Hyperspace war, rebuilt by Kun and again destroyed, rebuilt under Revan and again destroyed and last time rebuilt at 2,000 BBY by a Rogue Jedi and again destroyed at the battle of Ruusan.

That doen’t make sense because the “True” Sith Empire still existed after the Jedi Civil War. I don’t think we can resolve this at the moment.
That is wrong. At the end of the Great Sith War there were hundrets or even thousands of Jedi left that finally defeated Kun. After the Jedi Civil War there were still enough Jedi left to get killed by Nihilus when Katarr was destroyed and an unknown amount of Jedi even survived the purge following.

What I meant was that the Order was mainly wiped out in the Great Sith War. They lost some of their most powerful members (Vodo Baas, Arca Jeth, etc.). At the end of the Jedi Civil War, they were far weaker. They had just fought two Wars in a war. The entire Council(from what we can tell) we destroyed with 5 years of the Jedi Civil War.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It's reducing the pool for TRAINED INDIVIDUALS which is different from the pool of force sensitives. For all we know the PT Jedi order had more Jedi than the Ancient order.

If those trained individuals are dead though, they aren’t going to be passing on a lot of Force Sensitivity. And the Order at the Time of the Great Sith War was supposed to have been in the TENS of thousands, several times greater than the PT Order.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
I don't know why the lost of force using capability didn't effect the Sith. Perhabs is a philosophical issue where the subconsiousness of a force user didn't allow him to use the force any longer because of realizing the evil he unleashes and don't allow to reproduce it. The Sith wouldn't care much about that. On the same level the Exile had to cut off his connection to the force to survive Malachor V where the "more evil" individuals didn't have to.

Makes sense.

[QUOTE=5228099]Originally posted by Nai Fohl
[B]First the force potential of a child can be greater than the force potential of the parents. See Kyp Durron, see Anakin Solo and so on. And for that "reasons".

1. Become a permanent virgin contradicts Lucas idea about the Jedi so not very useful.
2. Being killed in combat during times of relative peace doesn't seem to be very likely.
3. Reproduce with a non-Force User will still most likely result in a force sensitive child, see Han and Leia.

1. We haven’t seen many cases of this. Not very useful.
2. They weren’t killed in War. There were many Jedi killed by thugs in both time periods.
3. That’s one case, not enough to say whether or not that is likely. This is also Leia, who has major Force Sensitivity. It seems that the stronger the Force User, the more likely they are to pass on at least some of their potential.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
First off the poison the Nemodians used was lethal ("They must be dead by now..."😉 and they would make sure the Jedi are dead since they fear them so much (so they must have kept them in that room for quite some time). Still the Jedi have survived it.
And Ulic had that poison in his blood for hours - seems not very lethal for me.

They had never dealt with Jedi before. They had no idea of a Jedi’s capabilities. The reason that Ulic was able to survive the poison was because he was so strong in the Force.
Also, the Jedi Exile is seen resisting the poison of the Jekk Jekk Tar for along time.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Have a look at what force push does to the KotoR time Jedi / Sith. They can be effectively killed with that.

So falling fifty feet is going to cause more damage than a hit by someone who can move several tons? No, I think that the Force Push is going to cause a greater amount of damage.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Where did you see Jedi in the JCW reflect blaster bolts with their hands ?

It was an ability in KOTOR 2. All your jedi could learn to do it. So, sorry, five years after the JCW.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Moving a grain requires more focus than moving a rock which is logical. Where have we seen Jedi in the JCW disabling droids ? Where has a Jedi ever ripped the core of a star out something that even the strongest Sith needed technology for (chrystals to aid their force powers, a ship focussing their force energy) ?

How does moving something with a smaller mass harder than moving something with a larger mass.
Disabling a droid was a feat in KOTOR, making it a true ability.
Sith were still Force Users. I didn’t know this applied exclusively to Jedi, if it does, forget this, it’s too narrow for my taste.
Plus, I don’t see why using technology makes the Sith weak. I mean, the Jedi used all sorts of technology to assist them (rebreather mask, lightsabers, comlinks), so this isn’t much of an argument against the Sith.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
For all three ocassions you used that statement: Ancient Jedi haven't shown this kind of abilities when in need of such abilities badly which would lead to the conclusion that they simply didn't have those abilities. So I've exactly proven that the former Sith and Jedi weren't able to do such things which would make them weaker.

Name some situations when they needed these abilities but failed to use them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Have a look at the goddamn Jedi Academy trilogy by Anderson. The same Holocron that tells the students how Yoda became a Jedi told Luke about Exar Kun later (Vodo Baas talking). It the SAME HOLOCRON. Get it.

No need to get angry. Anyway, which is a higher level of canon, the Essential Guides or that book? Wikipedia indicates they are two different items. Please give me a page number(or at least near the page) that says there is only one holocron or at least points to this in a way that is so suggestive that it outweighs the Essential Guide and Wikipedia.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. Considering the fact that they had no other place to store knowledge from 25,000 - 5,000 BBY (founding of the library on Ossus) and from about 4,000 BBY to the times of the Great purge (from the destruction of Dantooine on) doesn't really matter, right ?

Vima gave Leia a lightsaber made on Ossus that was 10,000 years old, so Ossus must be at least that old. It also seems unlikely that the Jedi would start making lightsabers the second that they got there, so they were probably at Ossus for thousands of years before that.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Ah...again great: The reputation of the Jedi built between 25,000 and 5,000 BBY is worth nothing but everyone fears the PT Jedi because of the reputation some people before them have built up. They even fear INDIVIDUAL Jedi like Mace Windu because of the reputation of others ? Hardly...

I don’t think that Ancient Jedi didn’t have any rep like you say.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Oh great. Every idiot bandit on every ass backward planet in the galaxy was trained to kill Jedi in ancient times. Sure...

Not everyone, but many were. Assassins were common in that time, along with the Sith Empire whose main enemy was the Jedi. They trained many assassins to counter the Jedi.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Exar using a Sith amulet...yes...totally compareable to Jedi who didn't use ancient Sith artifacts...
Coleman focusing on Dooku and getting killed by somebody Mace called the "deadliest man alive" - totally unusual of course. I guess Nomi Sunrider would have survived Mandalore shooting at her while focusing on Ulic (which would be a similar situation).

The Amulets are just another form of technology. The Jedi use technology too. The PT Jedi must be weak because they use lightsabers to augment their force powers(stated in by Master Thon, I believe).

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Rofl. Sorry...they killed some of the most powerful Jedi of the time (like Arca Jeth) and you want to tell me that the weaker people survived because of...beeing weaker ? Very nice...

Some powerful Jedi were killed, but that doesn’t mean all of them were killed. Look at the Battle of the Star Forge, for example. Malak, the strongest Sith alive, was killed, but other, weaker Sith escaped such as the Master who was informing Malak on Revan’s movements). This is another situation in which natural selection doesn’t play out on a civilized community.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
First off there weren't 200 Jedi in the arena but nevermind. 200 Jedi participated in the battle of Geonosis which included a space battle too. And still there are 20 Jedi standing at the end of the fight - not thirteen.
Mere minutes considering the fact that the things SHOWN are 7 minutes long...ok.
And the firerates can be seen in the movies so better watch them again before calling me a liar.

So each droid can fire at minimum three times per second? This doesn’t make any sense. You said that Jedi could block five droids firing at them and then made it sound like it was amazing that a Jedi can block six blaster bolts, which I still haven’t seen happen.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Against what powerful opponents ? Sith ? How many people have fought Ulic or Exar in a lightsaber duel ? How many people have fought Nadd and survived it. Hell...even the Army of Light only some individuals (like Hoth) have fought more than a single "powerful opponent". It's not that their are nests of them somewhere.

And if you practice any form of martial arts you would know that practice > real fighting.

I do pratice Martial Arts and I do know that real fighting teaches you more than training. You can’t actually understand a real fighting situation without ever being in one. And since when have Nadd, Ulic, and Exar been the only powerful people in the Ancient Times?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
That is a again a total irreal argument constructed. Did medieval swordfighters practice outside of real fights ? Sure they did. Now did they get better because of the practice or because of the fights, huh ?

Both, but the real fights did more.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
There is a reason why most of medieval swordmasters were nobles - they had the time to practice with that weapons were "normal" people didn't. Did you ever notice that the best duellists grew up in "peaceful" times ? I guess you didn't.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No war was fought against being who could destroy stars because no force user ever did destroy a star with his raw force power. How often do I have to explain that ?
And did we ever see armies of force users colliding. No. Why not ? Because it just never happened because their weren't enough force users to form an army. Hell...

So all Jedi who use lightsabers, comlinks, rebreathers, ect. Are suddenly weak because they use technology that they constructed to augment their power? No, they aren’t, so why should the Sith be? There were tens of thousands of Jedi Knights in the Great Sith War. That is easily enough to have a war.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
You call 3vs3 or 5vs5 or even a 1vs1 a "battle" meaning "a fight in dimension of armies" ? Nice...

You said you wanted a fight between Jedi and Sith and I gave you one.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The ROTS novel simply states this as a fact and doesn't say that it was anything special. And again a real fight is less effective than sparring in terms of refining your own abilities.

No it isn’t. Why would it be stated if it wasn’t special? Half the book was dedicated to sucking Anakin and Obi-wan balls.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The Jedi were peacekeepers. It's a goddamn fact. Arca Jeth sent his team to Onderon to find a "diplomatic solution" for the conflict - instead of this the result was a war and guess what: Arca told his students that they have FAILED.

Quit it with the swearing, it’s getting rather annoying. The Jedi still had a warrior branch, so I don’t see them being peace keepers. The did fight for peace, but soldier fight for peace too, yet they are not peace keepers.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. Sidious had never made a Sith Amulet. Sure. He had visited Korriban after it was plundered by god knows how many Sith (Nadd, Kun, Revan, Malak, Nihilus, Sion the entirety of the Sith Academy located there). What should he have found ?

It’s a huge planet and not the only place that Amulets ever came from. Sidious also visited Ziost, which is a far more rare location for Sith to visit than Korriban. I belive it is also directly stated at one point that he found a Sith Amulet there.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
OK. The entirety of the EU is uncannon because of contradicting the movies. 13 years of training to become a Jedi knight are impressive thereby none of the famous ancient Jedi Knights would have ever reached that title meaning people like Ulic and Exar were Padawan's joining the Dark Side. And this will result in the PT Sith / Jedi > Exar and Ulic. Whoopie.

Sounds like you’re getting desperate. That doesn’t directly contradict the movies, so it is still canon. Taking stabs in the dark, perhaps?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Because it wasn't designed to show that ?

Okay.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No. Missinterpretation on your side. I said that the PT Sith can't be seen as products of Dark Side only because they adapted "Jedi" methods (e.g. diplomacy instead of violence) and thereby Jedi methods only aren't enough to overcome them. And in short terms the Dark Side is stronger than Light Side. It's the fast way. That's the only reason why Sidious could hope to survive Yoda.

This would still make the Dark stronger than the Light, which it is not.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The effect simply removes the Dark Side component of any dark side focus point so it will work on Sith Amulets.

How fast does it work though? Regardless, Sith are extremely capable without their Amulets.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No. In fact Lucas is the ultimate level of canon and not the movies. Not that this would matter since the ancient Jedi never shown feats above the PT Jedi. Ever seen somebody in the comics deflecting six blaster bolts from six different direction in under a second in the comics - Mace Windu does that in AotC during the Battle of Geonosis.
Ever seen people using force speed in the comics ? Ever seen people lifting some hundret tons of metal ? No ?

Ever seen one rip out the Core of a Star? Yep. That alone outweighs everything the PT Jedi ever did.

AND THE MOVIES ARE CANON ABOVE A GL QUOTE OR ANYONE OR ANYTHING ELSE!!! WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND!

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Give me something that shows the ancient Jedi are stronger than the PT Jedi. According to all logic and to anything I have seen in the TOTJ comics they simply aren't.

They were able to effectively fight against the Ancient Sith, people who could kill dozens, if not hundreds of PT Jedi each.