ROTS Sidious, ROTS Vader, Darth Maul vs. Dooku, Ventress, Greivous

Vasallo sides with me. Fishy took neither side. So I had more on my side than you did. And I provided proof for all the "unproved bullshit" I posted. And I do know some stuff about Tyranus. Like he was scared to try to kill Sidious, even with Asajj helping him. And your had more insults and threw them first. So go around telling everybody you won and all I had was unproved bullshit but it is a lie.

He was never scared to kill Sidious. He knew of his backup and his plans. He tried to take him over on the invisible plan and Sidious knew it. Why do you think Dooku isolated Anakin and tried to get him to use his Dark powers? Why do you think Dooku was using a different form? Why do you think he didn't kill Anakin? He would have taken over Sidious, but unfortunatley, he underestimated Anakin while using a sub-form and Anakin caught him up. If he used Form II, he would have raped Anakin, which is something he should have done.

You had NO venerable proof that Sidious threw the fight. You said he sensed Anakin coming into the office. You said he could have stabbed Mace even though his arm was fully extended.

Mace contended with Sidious, he kicked his Lightsaber out of his hand, knocked him down and was ready to f*cking slaughter him silly.

Anakin just got there at the right time. Sidious can't plan everything. He isn't some super mastermind. He wanted Windu dead, and he nearly failed.

All you had was UNPROVED BULLSHIT. You didn't have any proof steering towards the fact that Sidious threw the fight. Your arguement held no water whatsoever.

He actually is a super mastermind

Sorgo, Palpatine and Yoda happen to be my favorite characters and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you like Dooku. I've read around. You like Dooku a LOT.

And as for Dooku, I'm sorry to say, he did fear Palpatine. Palpatine did not fear him. Dooku was SCARED of Palpatine. Perhaps he saw a side to Sidious that we did not; or Palpatine manipulated him into fearing him. But as Dark Rendezvous displayed - and this did not conflict with the movies - Dooku FEARED Palpatine.

The plan was to lure Anakin to the Dark Side. Count Dooku labored under the delusion that Palpatine would have broken the explicit Code of Two, and allowed them both to serve him. Dooku was a clever man, but he genuinely assumed Palpatine valued him and trusted him. And it is true that he has reason to believe it. He was an incredible asset.

Also, 'killing' Palpatine would've brought Anakin closer to the Dark Side than any of Dooku's taunts. So if his intention was to kill and betray his master, he would've killed Palpatine while the Sith Lord was shackled and powerless. But he did not. This implying that:

1. Dooku was afraid to kill a powerless man.
Or
2. Dooku did not intend to kill Palpatine.

Now, these are the only possible choices. And Dooku isn't a coward. So I know it's not number one. The reason is, he did not intend to kill his master. He toyed with Anakin, as Palpatine instructed, but was finally outmaneuvered and executed.

Again. Dooku is my second favorite character (Yoda and Palpatine own all), but he was too scared of Palpatine to try and kill him. Not to mention the Count has a shred of honor, and unbelievable loyalty.

*thumbs up*

And as for the Mace Windu and Palpatine affair; I do not believe it was propped up for faked. I simply believe Palpatine slaughtered three Jedi Masters, observed Mace, and assumed he could best him as easily as he did with the others. He was very wrong, and his arrogance nearly got him killed. When he realized that Mace was far beyond the Jedi that Palpatine dispatched, he was too late to use his superior Force powers.

Sounds good to me.

Yeah. I don't want to be like the fanboys who assume their character owns all. Yoda and Palpatine each hold an equal standing with me. But Yoda would've beaten Palpatine, and Palpatine lost fairly to Windu. In the same accord, Yoda was duped for decades by Palpatine, and for all his power, he didn't stop Palpatine's master plans.

Both are insanely powerful. For the Palpatine fanboys out there. Yeah, he's powerful and badass. But he nearly got killed by Windu due to his incredible arrogance, and nearly got killed by Yoda at the end of their duel, for his lack of 'esteemed' forsight.

For the Yoda fanboys out there. Yoda is powerful and badass. But for all his wisdom, he couldn't sense a SINGLE Sith Lord, who eventually came to hold the highest office in the Republic and then tore it down. Sorry, but Yoda lost the intellectual war.

Both are great. But both make hideous blunders.

Originally posted by DrDoom101
In AOTC, Obi blocked the lightning with one hand easily. Mace struggled against Palpatine's. I dont know if Dooku was just playing around or not

Dooku certainly wasn't straining to use nor direct his lightning, nor even to reflect it. But then again, he doesn't use it to grand effect like Sidious does, so the possibility remains that he may not be as powerful using Sith lightning. And that would actually make sense.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sorgo, Palpatine and Yoda happen to be my favorite characters and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you like Dooku. I've read around. You like Dooku a LOT.

And as for Dooku, I'm sorry to say, he did fear Palpatine. Palpatine did not fear him. Dooku was SCARED of Palpatine. Perhaps he saw a side to Sidious that we did not; or Palpatine manipulated him into fearing him. But as Dark Rendezvous displayed - and this did not conflict with the movies - Dooku FEARED Palpatine.

The plan was to lure Anakin to the Dark Side. Count Dooku labored under the delusion that Palpatine would have broken the explicit Code of Two, and allowed them both to serve him. Dooku was a clever man, but he genuinely assumed Palpatine valued him and trusted him. And it is true that he has reason to believe it. He was an incredible asset.

Also, 'killing' Palpatine would've brought Anakin closer to the Dark Side than any of Dooku's taunts. So if his intention was to kill and betray his master, he would've killed Palpatine while the Sith Lord was shackled and powerless. But he did not. This implying that:

1. Dooku was afraid to kill a powerless man.
Or
2. Dooku did not intend to kill Palpatine.

Now, these are the only possible choices. And Dooku isn't a coward. So I know it's not number one. The reason is, he did not intend to kill his master. He toyed with Anakin, as Palpatine instructed, but was finally outmaneuvered and executed.

Again. Dooku is my second favorite character (Yoda and Palpatine own all), but he was too scared of Palpatine to try and kill him. Not to mention the Count has a shred of honor, and unbelievable loyalty.

^ I like this guy. That is another good theory.

I still think Dooku should have just offed Anakin. Sidious betrayed Dooku. And Dooku fearing Sidious provides no proof. Maybe he was just extremely loyal to his Master. Loyalty and Fear are two very different things under certain circumstances. These are all theories though. Maybe Dooku wanted three Sith Lord's or maybe he wanted to turn Anakin and have him kill the shackled Palpatine. Who knows. Hopefully we will find out someday.

Ironically, it is possible to express both fear and loyalty. There are many people who served under tyrants (Khan, Stalin, Hitler, ect) who loved and worshipped them, but also feared what they would do if they failed their leaders.

Dooku never worshiped Palpatine. But also viewed when Asajj tried to get Dooku to attempt to kill Palpatine, Dooku didn't want to do it. No. Dooku was a zealot to Palpatine's cause. Palpatine should've kept him.
🙁

I think Sidious was insecure. After all, the only apprentice he kept was Anakin, who was both inferior to him and (If you believe the hinted at possibility) created by the Sith themselves.

Originally posted by Escape81
Ironically, it is possible to express both fear and loyalty. There are many people who served under tyrants (Khan, Stalin, Hitler, ect) who loved and worshipped them, but also feared what they would do if they failed their leaders.

Dooku never worshiped Palpatine. But also viewed when Asajj tried to get Dooku to attempt to kill Palpatine, Dooku didn't want to do it. No. Dooku was a zealot to Palpatine's cause. Palpatine should've kept him.
🙁

I don't think he feared Palpatine, and a large rumor was going around that he had a plan to overthrowvisit my site Sidious and was going to go through with it on the Invisible Hand.

Originally posted by Sorgo
I don't think he feared Palpatine, and a large rumor was going around that he had a plan to overthrowvisit my site Sidious and was going to go through with it on the Invisible Hand.

Sorgo, if I may, I think you just don't want to 'believe' that he feared Palpatine. He did. Dark Rendezvous showed it accurately, and it did not interfere with the movie. So it is canon. And as you so accurately said, it was a 'rumor'.

Forgive me for the lack of modesty... but that rumor was just blown away a few posts up. If Dooku intended on betraying his master, he would have killed Palpatine. That also would've caused Anakin to go farther down the Dark Side. Palpatine was also apparently defenseless. And yet Dooku did not strike.

And I don't mean to be rude, either. But it's true.

Sorgo is a Dooku fanboy, he knows it. Not a mad Dooku fanboy though.

Well, still. I don't need to be rude, and I didn't try to be. Manners are essential.

lol!

Caught that, Sorgo!

I was wrong, there is somone with sense in this place. Good work escape81.

Originally posted by Escape81
Hi, Nai. Deus mentioned you as one of the upper-class debaters around here. You seem to have this debate pretty well evaluated. But Dooku did not throw Anakin across the room. Deus's video clip showed that it wasn't even half of the room. Perhaps less than a quarter.

There was a wall stopping Anakin and Dooku used only one hand for lightning and still he reversed Anakin's movement and threw him backwards into the wall which would need more energy than throw somebody away that is "standing" around.

Palpatine was at point-blank range. But according to the site, he tapped into so much Dark Side power that it caused the deformation. And he let loose a barrage that caused Mace to convulse under its power, and then it jettisoned him out across the distance.

Palpatine again was using both hands which Dooku didn't and from a point blank range. The only situation compareable is when Sidious blasted Yoda across the room in ROTS but again Yoda was standing, Sidious used both hands and Yoda in terms of weight is nothing compared to Anakin.

But I do not believe Dooku's mastery of the Force is equal to his master's. Especially mastery of the Dark Side. It betrays the principle of the official website naming Sidious as 'the most powerful Sith in modern times' and the 'paragon of the Dark Side'.

Dooku seems an obvious superior to his master in dueling skills, but I do not think he is on par with him in Force ability.

Well...in terms of a duel Sidious won't be able to overcome Dooku with force lightning since Dooku can deflect it or at least he would be powerful enough to block it with his lightsaber (like Mace did in ROTS). So this would most likely end in a lightsaber duel and Dooku would most likely kill Sidious.

Okay, for one thing how do we know how old Sidious is? And for another I'm sure Sidious had more practice with Force lightning that Dooku did. Ever hear of a Jedi practicing lightning?

Sidious was born in 84 BBY and Dooku in 102 BBY so Dooku is 18 years older than Sidious and was trained from infancy on. Still Dookus lightning used with one hand seems to be compareable to what Sidious can do with twohanded lightning.

So according to you the faster you are the stronger? And Vader didn't use his full speed in ANH, so.

Yoda is by far the fastest in terms of movement in the PT era and he is the strongest lightsaber duellist. I just was refering to your idea that Sidious could be faster than shown in the film which is simply wrong.
Vader in ANH ? Please don't even think of comparing the OT to the PT in terms of lightsaber fights. They didn't have the ability to create complete CGI characters like they did in the PT (Sidious vs Yoda is complete CGI scene) and they weren't able to put the face of an actor over a stunt double (which they did for Dooku's fight sequences in AotC).
So they had to use the real actors for fighting scenes. Alec Guinness was 62 years old when shooting ANH and even with the "younger" actors like Mark Hamill they had worse coreography for the fight scenes and didn't have the ability to create realistic computer animations for movements. That's why the OT looks so "slow" compared to the PT.

If the OT would have been done with the same technology and choreography the lightsaber duells would exactly look like Anakin vs Obi-Wan in ROTS.