Good point, but the problem with that (Besides it being an author's rendition of Dooku's feelings) is that there's nothing to substantiate the fear. It just exists. ANd that doesn't imply neccessarily better battle prowess. As for Force knowledge, Dooku was older than Sidious and had an extended background as a jedi master. ONly in the dark side could SIdious have been superior, and really, I don't see much.
I've also looked around and saw that Grievous is considered to be a very inept duelist. But in Labyrinth of Evil, Count Dooku muses that even he was very hard-pressed to defeat Grievous. So if Dooku had problems facing down General Grievous (whom Obi-Wan bested with evident ease), not to mention that he was killed by Anakin (who is also ridiculed as a duelist, and who was defeated by Obi-Wan), wouldn't it be safe to assume that he could not match Palpatine?
Sorry if I'm repeating old arguments or something. I'm new around here.
I'm sorry, but I just can't believe Dooku is superior to Palpatine. Also considering how it was stated that Palpatine 'was' the master of the Dark Side, Yoda's opposite. And the site proclaims that Palpatine is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times. According to his databank profile, he is also the 'paragon of the Dark Side'.
This is likely the case... But keep in mind that while his mastery of the dark side is probably superior, his duelling skills aren't. And I'd say that both show similar feats of force mastery.
And tack up the fact that Dooku was a sith for what? Almost thirteen years compared to Sidious who was a sith for much longer. Perhaps there was something indeed that cowed Dooku... But we don't know exactly what.
In any case, it's a very close fight.
Originally posted by Escape81
I've also looked around and saw that Grievous is considered to be a very inept duelist. But in Labyrinth of Evil, Count Dooku muses that even he was very hard-pressed to defeat Grievous. So if Dooku had problems facing down General Grievous (whom Obi-Wan bested with evident ease), not to mention that he was killed by Anakin (who is also ridiculed as a duelist, and who was defeated by Obi-Wan), wouldn't it be safe to assume that he could not match Palpatine?Sorry if I'm repeating old arguments or something. I'm new around here.
Very impressive for a junior member, but not quite on target.
I don't see how Dooku was hard pressed to defeat GG. In a pure saber duel, perhaps, but if Dooku called upon his impressive force arsenal, GG would be crushed against him.
Obi-wan defeated GG, but that was a long and drawn out fight. Look at how Dooku wasted Obi-wan earlier in the movie. It took about 18 seconds. Dooku is FAR superior to Obi-wan.
Now, Dooku only lost to Anakin because he threw the fight. If Dooku had been trying against Obi-wan and Anakin, both would have fallen in less than a minute.
Now, we know Dooku defeated Mace once. We know that Mace defeated Sidious. That gives Dooku support, but doesn't for sure mean that Dooku would defeat Sidious becuase in matches like this A>B, B>C doesn't always mean A>C.
Dooku only followed Sidious because Sidious had the political genius and positioning, not because Sidious was a more powerful fighter.
And, I'm tired of typing, so I'll post more on this later.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Very impressive for a junior member, but not quite on target.I don't see how Dooku was hard pressed to defeat GG. In a pure saber duel, perhaps, but if Dooku called upon his impressive force arsenal, GG would be crushed against him.
Obi-wan defeated GG, but that was a long and drawn out fight. Look at how Dooku wasted Obi-wan earlier in the movie. It took about 18 seconds. Dooku is FAR superior to Obi-wan.
Now, Dooku only lost to Anakin because he threw the fight. If Dooku had been trying against Obi-wan and Anakin, both would have fallen in less than a minute.
Now, we know Dooku defeated Mace once. We know that Mace defeated Sidious. That gives Dooku support, but doesn't for sure mean that Dooku would defeat Sidious becuase in matches like this A>B, B>C doesn't always mean A>C.
Dooku only followed Sidious because Sidious had the political genius and positioning, not because Sidious was a more powerful fighter.
And, I'm tired of typing, so I'll post more on this later.
A>B true. Qui-Gon is obi's master and knows his weak points
B>C true TPM Obi stalemated Maul for a while, AOTC has a chance
A>C false. Qui-Gon lost to Maul
Well, I have noticed that there is an inconsistency between the books and the movies. But it 'did' state that Dooku was very hard-pressed to defeat Grievous, even though the movies depicted him as both a coward and reckless. And then you have the Clone Wars cartoons which make him appear to be very formidable. But I think the books are recognized as cannon as long as they do not conflict with the stories.
Also, Dooku was a political genius in his own right. While it is evident that he was no where near the mastermind that Palpatine was, he was a clever man, and a rational one at that. So it would appear that Dooku's fear of Palpatine was not irrational or without reason. Dooku, who did not even fear Windu, Obi-Wan, or Anakin, generally feared Palpatine, who many consider to be his inferior. But Deus Ex is right. We do not, nor is it likely that we will 'ever', know why Dooku feared Palpatine the way he did.
As for the Mace Windu issue. I have reviewed Palpatine's respective duels with Yoda and Mace numerous times. There is a clear difference between them. The website declares that Palpatine was outmaneuvered. So I doubt this is a lie. However, Palpatine went into the duel and killed three Jedi Masters in a few seconds. And we all know that Palpatine's greatest weakness, as cited by Luke in Return of the Jedi, is his over confidence. Having duped the Council and the Jedi, as well as killing Mace's entourage with relative ease, I assume he went into the duel with Mace a trace over-confident. He went on the offensive. Notice that he didn't use his immense Force powers (which are probably vastly superior to Mace's own). He used his saber skills. While I do not consider Palpatine a pathetic duelist, it is obvious that the Sith Lord's main source of offense and power is his Force powers. Palpatine also took his time. Now. It is utterly conveniant how Anakin mysteriously walked in on the duel, just a second after Palpatine was disarmed.
Perhaps Palpatine did indeed loose to Mace, in the duel. But it is also obvious that he took that loss and made it work where he had Anakin in the position where it would lead him further down the Dark Side. I do not know if Mace would've killed Palpatine without Anakin's interference, but it seems likely.
However. Had Palpatine battled Mace as he did with Yoda, I have no doubt that the Koruun master would be dead. Palpatine's Force powers are immensely developed for a Force-user, and his battle with Yoda showed that he recognized 'the little green freak' as the greater danger. His confidence was probably bulstered after his duel with Mace, hence his reluctance to battle someone with Yoda's attunement and wisdom.
But this is just my theory.
Very impressive.
Originally posted by Escape81
Well, I have noticed that there is an inconsistency between the books and the movies. But it 'did' state that Dooku was very hard-pressed to defeat Grievous, even though the movies depicted him as both a coward and reckless. And then you have the Clone Wars cartoons which make him appear to be very formidable. But I think the books are recognized as cannon as long as they do not conflict with the stories.
The Cartoons you can throw out. They conflict with the movies even though they are GL approved, the movies outrank them. If the Cartoon were true, Mace could have killed every Droid on Geonosis by himself.
Yes, the books are canon.
Originally posted by Escape81
Also, Dooku was a political genius in his own right. While it is evident that he was no where near the mastermind that Palpatine was, he was a clever man, and a rational one at that. So it would appear that Dooku's fear of Palpatine was not irrational or without reason. Dooku, who did not even fear Windu, Obi-Wan, or Anakin, generally feared Palpatine, who many consider to be his inferior. But Deus Ex is right. We do not, nor is it likely that we will 'ever', know why Dooku feared Palpatine the way he did.
It was stated somewhere that Sidious did have something over Dooku that could kill him or something like that. I don't remember where though.
Originally posted by Escape81
As for the Mace Windu issue. I have reviewed Palpatine's respective duels with Yoda and Mace numerous times. There is a clear difference between them. The website declares that Palpatine was outmaneuvered. So I doubt this is a lie. However, Palpatine went into the duel and killed three Jedi Masters in a few seconds. And we all know that Palpatine's greatest weakness, as cited by Luke in Return of the Jedi, is his over confidence. Having duped the Council and the Jedi, as well as killing Mace's entourage with relative ease, I assume he went into the duel with Mace a trace over-confident. He went on the offensive. Notice that he didn't use his immense Force powers (which are probably vastly superior to Mace's own). He used his saber skills. While I do not consider Palpatine a pathetic duelist, it is obvious that the Sith Lord's main source of offense and power is his Force powers. Palpatine also took his time. Now. It is utterly conveniant how Anakin mysteriously walked in on the duel, just a second after Palpatine was disarmed.
You're nearly right. Palpatine might have defeat Mace in the right situation. In the end of the fight though, Sidious was hitting Mace with everything he had and Mace still pushed through it.
Originally posted by Escape81
Perhaps Palpatine did indeed loose to Mace, in the duel. But it is also obvious that he took that loss and made it work where he had Anakin in the position where it would lead him further down the Dark Side. I do not know if Mace would've killed Palpatine without Anakin's interference, but it seems likely.
Mace would have killed Sidious. Sidious didn't fake the fight.
However. Had Palpatine battled Mace as he did with Yoda, I have no doubt that the Koruun master would be dead. Palpatine's Force powers are immensely developed for a Force-user, and his battle with Yoda showed that he recognized 'the little green freak' as the greater danger. His confidence was probably bulstered after his duel with Mace, hence his reluctance to battle someone with Yoda's attunement and wisdom.
You might be right. Still, Sidious hasn't demonstrated the ability to use extensive force powers while using a lightsaber. Mace was able to overcome Sidious' full Force Lightning attack and was FAR less winded than Sidious.
Originally posted by Escape81
But this is just my theory.
It's a good start.
I think one thing that Sidious had over DOoku that was mentioned in LOE included the murder of Master Sio Dyas (Which was like Dooku's initiation) and the points in Dark Rendezvous and such were Dooku felt he had gone too far towards the dark side to ever return... I think Sidious was blackmailing him, possibly in addition to physical pressure or something.
Perhaps. But also, by the time of Dark Rendezvous, Dooku was an enemy of the Republic and leader of the Separatists. Blackmail would not have done him any good. He was already a wanted man, and would likely be put to death anyway, had he been captured.
So while that might have been an original form of incentive that Palpatine had over Dooku, I doubt it was the true thing that the Count feared. But again. We'll never know.
I can't say death would have been Dooku's crime. For one, he was a very respected figure in many circles, and was a noble of a vastly powerful and wealthy planet. Also, it would undermine the moral standing of any institution that put him to death. I think his sentence would have been closer to life imprisonment or perhaps exile.
Then perhaps blackmail would be one of the greater things. But perhaps Dooku didn't know enough about Palpatine. Perhaps, in truth, he did not see Palpatine duel or fight. To be quite honest, he does try to 'act' far stronger than he is. Palpatine is powerful. But in the Phantom Menace, especially, he acted with arrogance. But he was in control. And knowing that all of his lackeys feared him, I suppose he emitted an aura of total power and skill. After all of his exceptional accomplishments, I'd say so myself. But then again, we've seen Palpatine have his weak moments.
But really... knowing that he is NOT all-powerful and yet makes himself damn near look it, makes him all the greater villain.
I got to go. Goodnight.